Wild mountain thyme

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: JHW
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 05:41 AM

Yes re last point. Poss why many clubs back when used it as a night finisher.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 05:14 AM

I think one of the beauties of 'Wild Mountain Thyme' is that the chorus makes it ideal for people to join in with.. "...And We'll all go together.." in an inclusive line and a great subconscious joining in point. So it kind of goes between personal folk song and an often atmospheric enhancing crowd pleasing/sing a long.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 04:33 AM

yes, i heard liz randall sing it ,she does a fine job of it

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: JHW
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 04:08 PM

The melody and text I use for Braes of Balquidder came to me from Liz Randall. Leaps like a pipe tune. No criticism of her source, thanks rather.
I note 'Bonnie highland heather'. Neither blooming nor purple.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 02:36 PM

well they are both good songs in different ways but my fvourite is braes what a beautiful subtle melody

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 01:42 PM

I’m sure I posted this before, but I have the original, handwritten letter from Tannahill with the words of the Braes o’ Balquhither. He wrote “Bonnie highland Heather.”
Also “When the rude wintry win’
Idly roves round his dwelling,
And the roar of the linn
On the night breeze is swelling,
Then so merrily he’ll sing,
As the storm rattles o’er him,
Till the dear sheeling ring,
Wi’ the light, lilting iorum.


And tan has underlined the word iorum.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 11:17 AM

From somewhere in the past I have learnt a verse that seems to come from the "Braes" words and is not in the McPeake version.

When the cold winter wind
Blows around our humble dwelling
We will sit here by the fire
Spend our time in stories telling.

Robin

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 09:26 AM

One of the most moving moments I ever saw was when the 1998 BBC documentary series The Human Body (birth to death) was shown. For the first time ever the actual moment of death was shown on TV of an older gentlemen (Herbie) suffering from terminal cancer. Before that in the lead up to the end stage he had visitors to his bedside briefly singing 'Wild Mountain Thyme to him (tastefully edited), even though he was pretty well out of it, it was their way of saying goodbye. Whilst it felt slightly staged and voyeuristic because the 'fly on the wall', cameras were there.. I couldn't stop myself from getting emotional with the song and its context. A simple song (the McPeake copyright version), is so emotive. The Braes version doesn't have the level of melody and emotion of the modern equivalent - through my 20th century ears at least. but that's time and cultural attuning for y6u.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: JHW
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 06:06 AM

Well this just gave me the idea for something I could sing tonight at a garden do, except thats just been cancelled due to thunderstorm threat. I'd have sung Braes of Balquidder but note this has Purple heather. Purple noted above. Regular FC version has 'blooming' heather.
Thanks to Liz Randal for the version I have sung.
At RHBay FC (Yorkshire coast) we finished the club night for years always with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' but there the word was Purple heather.
Wild Thyme carpets are in bloom now but only bell heather is out. Another few weeks for most purple heather moors. ie time of Whitby Festival.
Bilberries/Blaeberries to look forward to.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 07:00 PM

Well said, GUEST.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 04:15 PM

The venerable Jim Maclean is right, and Led Zepplin is no comparison.. though they themselves have faced the issue over plagiarism and their nicking some parts of 'Stairway to heaven'. The difference that has gone over your head, is that lyrics from a couple of hundred years ago have no copyright.. but a modern arrangement of the song can have a copyright if you add your own stamp to them, creating your own arrangement.   If the tune is original as well then this adds even more weight to the fact it holds a legal copyright. So anybody who performs Wild Mountain Thyme as trad. in instrumental form is using the McPeake copyright work, unless it is proved different.   There won't be too many years before it does become totally trad. 70 years after the death of the author/composer. Copyright in a work only exists from the date of the first fixed recording, or writing down of the work, and that lasts for 70 years post mortem of authorship. Even if McPeake had heard it from an uncle (which he ambiguously says in the 1952 field recording), copyright would still belong to the 1950's McPeake version, as you'd have to find it in fixed form pre-dating that. Back to the Led Zepplin analogy.. the difference is that the song you'd be tampering with would be a modern copyright work. Not one from hundreds of years ago which has been substantially re-written and given a new tune thereby creating a new lyrical arrangement and in terms of tune a copyright work.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 01:19 PM

I’m afraid I cannot accept any similarity between McPeakes’ tune and the version by Alma Gluck which is note for note of that printed in any Victorian song book, copied from R A Smith’s publication. No amount of wishful thinking and guess work will achieve anything else.
The McPeakes obviously used Tannahill’s lyrics but that was all.
The McPeakes produced a song, original in melodic content which belongs to them completely, no matter whether an uncle or the next man’s dog wrote it……they aired it first and no one has proved otherwise.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 08:28 AM

GUEST,

For the first point, my original question goes to this issue of how much do I need to change before it is a new song that I own. My comment about taking a Led Zepplin tune (or any modern pop song)and swapping a few words or changing a few notes is still going to see you with a lawsuit by the original song writer.

McPeake's family claimed the copyright, but a recording of McPeake Senior acknowledges that he had heard the song from someone else and then 'messed around' with the tune.

This is largely an academic discussion, but from what I have researched, I don't think the McPeake family have a valid claim to the copyright, because the changes to the lyrics and tune are not substantive enough to make it a 'new' piece. As stated previously, I'm not a lawyer, and just applying the 'reasonable person' test.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 08:08 AM

If McPeake is not going to be given credit for a song with words and tune distinct from but based on earlier ones doesn't someone have to find McPeake's version from before McPeake?

Did he ever claim to have made the whole thing up from new out of his head?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 07:26 AM

The other thing to add to my list if I'm *bored* is to take note of the fact that McPeake was probably noodling on the Uillean pipes, which may have caused issues within the 2-scale range of the instrument, necessitating some note switching.

Any pipe players want to chime in?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 07:15 AM

Hi Jim,

I know we have discussed this before, but I still don't feel that your claim of these tunes being COMPLETELY different is valid to my ear as a musician.

This tune, sung here by Alma Gluck,around 1918, and the same as the one I transcribed to midi from the 1821 Scottish Minstrel linked above, sound like the clear parent of what McPeake played, fortunately this recording of the McPeake family in 1960 was preserved.

If we are having a discussion about whether taking a 20 note phrase and changing 3 of them makes it a new 'copyrightable' tune, then I can't comment as I'm not a copyright lawyer. However, I did follow the case between Men at Work and the owners of the 'Kookaburra Sings' song with interest, and precedent would suggest that a small change like this is not enough when the representatives of both parties have good lawyers.

I know what it is like when you hear a tune at a session and try and recall it from memory a few days later. The changes between the two tunes are exactly the types of note swaps and phrasing modification that naturally occur with fallible human memory. There may have been 20-30 years between when Francis Snr. heard this song at an opera and when he tried to recall it, and in fact he might have first heard it from 2-3 other people who heard it at the opera any time back to 1820. In any case, he can't be credited with 'writing' it, a fact that he admitted himself on a recording.

If I get board I might transcribe both tunes note for note and count the notes that are different.

I'm not trying to open old wounds here, I just like to get to the bottom of things,

Cheers,
Daniel,

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:23 AM

Let’s clear this up.

There are three distinct tunes associated with The Braes o’ Balquhither.

A) The commonly accepted melody used by Burns for ‘An I’ll Kiss Ye Yet’ and printed by R A Smith under the title The Braes o’ Balquhither, Smith’s Scotish (sic) Minstrel, Vol. 1, 1822.
B) The Three Carles o’ Buchanan, the tune chosen by Tannahill in his letter to Smith, 1810.
C) The Wild Mountain Thyme, first recorded by the McPeakes in 1956.

All tunes are COMPLETELY different.

The tune Rory referenced, New York publication, is tune B also published by Smith Vol lV 1824 2nd edition, titled The Three Carles o’ Buchanan and not the same as Daniel referenced (A).

Tune C is completely original and credited to the McPeakes.

Daniel, John Hamilton was know to Tannahill so he probably deliberately chose the tune tune (B) to distance himself from Hamilton’s Braes o Bowhether which has a familiar theme. Hamilton, by the way, copies many lines from Burns’ An I’ll Kiss Ye Yet, including the tune (A).m

I am an ethnomusicologist, degree from the university of Edinburgh, 2008, Thesis title “A Study of Two Tunes: The Three Carles O’ Buchanan and the Braes O’ Balquhither in their cultural contexts from 1740 to the present day”.

Daniel, I suggest you listen again to tunes A and B and take note of the differences.
Rory, both your New York referenced tune (B) and the one you referenced earlier form the Scotish (sic) Minstrel (A) are different.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 10:39 PM

Also, A five verse voice and piano arrangement was published by J.A. and W. Geib in New York circa between 1818 and 1821.
Catalog Record: The Braes of Balquhither Hathi Trust Digital Library

The Braes of Balquhither. New York: Published by J.A. & W. Geib. (1818-1821)

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 09:02 PM

Hi Rory,

Your link to the tune appears to be the same as the one I link to, just in a different book from 1854.

McPeake has slowed down the tune, but it is essentially the same (to my ear).

I know this gets into the murky space of copyright law, but if I took a song by Led Zeppelin and changed one word in the chorus and used a harmonic variation on the melody, would I get away with claiming authorship? Unlikely.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 07:25 PM

For the origins of Tannahill's poem The Braes od Balqhidder (ca 1810) see this thread
Origins: Wild Mountain Thyme/Braes o' Balquhidder

The poem first printed in 1812.

The tune and words appear in R.A. Smith's Scottish Minstrel, 1821, vol. 1, pg. 49
Scottish Minstrel

Would this be the same tune?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 10:32 AM

I know this thread is old, but in the interest of setting the record straight(er), my research
here makes it pretty clear that the tune, as McPeake sings it, was published in this book well before his time.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 04:12 PM

He would have a problem because it wasn't. McPeake is credited with the copyright of Wild Mountain Thyme because although the lyrics are closely related to Tannahill's the melody is entirely different and NOT The Three Carles o' Buchannan as suggested above. Tannahill wrote his song to The Three Carles but it was set, and printed, (after his death) to a version of an old tune, The Braes of Balquhidder, by his friend R A Smith who also printed the Three Carles tune in a volume of his Scotish (sic) Minstrelsy. Hamish Henderson made a mistake when writing the sleeve notes for a Scottish folk singer and names the tune as the Three Carles when in fact it was the McPeake's tune. The Braes tune, as has already been mentioned, was used by Burns among others.
I 'did' a Masters at Edinburgh Uni, tracing The Three Carles and The Braes melodies and Tannahill's poem/song, a fascinating journey.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: pavane
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 01:36 PM

I expect if he called it BRAES OF BALQUIDDER he wouldn't have had a problem

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Auld timer
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 10:34 AM

About a dozen or so years ago Rod Stewart recorded and released this song and claimed "Traditional Arranged R.Stewart". About a month latter the record was released this time acreadeted " McPeake "

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: BobKnight
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 09:00 AM

McPeake's version doesn't rhyme in the first verse. "Heather" doesn't rhyme with "blooming."
However, if you sing, ".. the trees are sweetly blooming, and the wild mountain thyme all the hillside is perfuming," as I think Tannahill wrote, then you have a perfect rhyme.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

Can anyone tell me if I would have to pay royalties for recording 'wild mountain thyme'?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:41 PM

A couple of commas or periods would really help get that answered.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:29 PM

do you know where i could get a copy of the film quaxer fortune hasa cousin in the bronx???

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 03:14 PM

I just found a copy of "Quaxer Fortune Has A Cousin In The Bronx". If you can believe a simple man who makes his living collecting horse dung and selling it as manure, the song is Irish, traditional, and mandatory curriculum in Dublin schools. I would believe anything Gene Wilder told me.Especially with a bit of heather in his hands.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 11:54 PM

It's nice to know who wrote this song and who changed that song etc, but lets not forget what is important. Folk Songs of love, history, murder, mayhem, rebellion etc, are being sung, by me, by you, and countless others, thereby preserving these songs for future generations to enjoy.

I don't really care if McPeake wrote it, stole it, changed it - changing words is part of folk music and hopefully will continue. This is a great song and will be around for many years to come.

Lets be thankful for Tannahill, McPeake and others like them who continued to write, collect, sing and play traditional songs and tunes even when it was not the in thing to do. Look at the treasure they left all of us.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: rube1
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 06:47 AM

Dylan also did this song. It's on the Isle of Wight bootleg, maybe elsewhere too.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 12:09 AM

Joan Baez does this song on an early lp- liner notes credit the version to the McPeake family. Glenn Frye does a memorable version live in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Gypsy
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 10:45 PM

Tim, PM me, and I will be happy to send sheet music, and about 20 verses to the tune. I've got enough to carry you thru at least 3 seasons.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 09:12 PM

Do female dogs also have that specific piddling problem? I was once told that this only happens to male ones and I also only got to know male ones, so please excuse my ignorance...

:-D

Joerg

Subject: Lyr Add: DOGGONE IT! (parody by Stephen L. Suffet)
From: GUEST,Stephen L. Suffet
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 08:51 PM

Greetings:

Here's how my parody goes. I have had the pleasure of hearing sung back to me by people who had no idea I was the author.

---- Steve

DOGGONE IT!
Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet © 1997, 1999
Muse: "Wild Mountain Thyme" (McPeake Family)

Oh, I walked my dear old collie,
Across the blooming bower,
But she never stopped to piddle,
Though I walked her half an hour.
Will you go, Lassie, go?

And we'll all go together,
As we walk our bloody dogs,
Regardless of the weather.
Will you go, Lassie, go?

---

Line breaks dribbled in. --JoeClone
Added to the Digital Tradition Oct 97 -JRO-

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

Jeri !

Go back and read what Roddy has said. He's totally correct. As also is Bruce O.

Thinking won't make it so.

Annraoi

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Walter
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 10:56 PM

I hope I do this right - it's my first try in Mudcats. Has anyone 12-string guitar tab for WMT, preferably in DADGAD or some other alt tuning?

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 10:50 PM

Forgive any errors - this is my first attempt in this arena.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From:
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 07:54 PM

Thanks, Bruce. That's formidable research. Amazing the work that you have done over the years.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 05:23 PM

John Hamilton's tune is in DT for "Peggy Alison".

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 05:08 PM

The ABC above from John Hamilton's book is practically the same as that in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #193 (1788). According to John Glen (Early Scotish Melodies) the tune was published by John Walsh in his 24 country dances for 1742. A version of the tune with a few notes different and engraved as an instrumental rather than vocal score is in book 1 of Gow's 'Complete Repository' (I initially thought it was a differrent tune, but it's really the same one again).

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE BRAES O' BOWHETHER
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 03:00 PM

[Repost from rec.music.folk from Bogus Address [Jack Campin]

Craig Cockburn has dealt with "Auld Lang Syne". "The Wild Mountain Thyme" was claimed as original by Francis McPeake; in fact he did no more than slightly adapt "The Braes of Balquhidder", a song by Robert Tannahill from the first decade of the 19th century using a tune called "The Three Carles o' Buchanan". That song was repeatedly anthologized throughout the next 150 years. *But*, what nobody seems to have noticed is that Tannahill's song is an adaptation of one in John Hamilton's "24 Scots Songs" published by Watlen in Edinburgh in 1796.

Hamilton doesn't say outright that he wrote it himself, either; his more than usually muddled notation suggests he didn't and was transcribing someone else's work. So my guess is that it started out as a Scots folk song of the late 18th century by a now-unknown composer from somewhere in Stirlingshire not so very far from where Craig hails from.

Here's a warts-and-all transcription of Hamilton's version:

X:1
T:The Braes o' Bowhether
S:John Hamilton, 24 Scots Songs, 1796
N:H is not standard ABC yet; it means a fermata
N:sic - bars 6 and 8 are too long (2nd to last notes length 2 instead?)
Z:Jack Campin
M:C
L:1/8
K:F
"Slow"
A/ c/|d2 F> G A A> z c| d2 F> G A c/|\
d2 F> G (AG) A> c|(d>e) f> d (c/A/ A2)
||
c |d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f d c> A (A/G/) G3

c/|\
d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f> e (d/e/) (f/d/) (c/A/) A3
c/|
d> e f d c> A Ha> g| f> d (d/c/) (B/A/) (A/G/) G2 A/
G/|\
F> D C> D (F>G) A> c|(d>e) (g/f/) (e/d/) (c/A/ A2)
|]

Now the day's growin' lang lass,
an' sweet shines the weather,
an' we'll owre a' the hills,
to the Braes o' Bowhether.
Amang the Glens an' Rashy dens,
I'll prize thee without measure,
Within my arms, wi' a' thy charms,
I'll clasp my lovely treasure,
In sweetest Love, our time will move,
wi' mair than earthly pleasure;
By the little limpid streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.

An' I'll ay loe thee dearly,
Ilk day wes' forgather,
Syne we'll row on the fog,
By the Braes o' Bowhether;
To Pipe or Flute, when time will suit,
We'll dance like ony feather,
An', skip the knowes where Claver grows,
Or stray amang the Heather;
Ay free frae strife in sic a life,
There, weary shall we never,
By the limpid little streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Ed Murphy
Date: 05 Dec 99 - 01:08 AM

Does anyone know of a live version of WMT by the Clancy Bros? I remember hearing it, but I can't seem to find it now. The most memorable part of the song was the audience singing along on the chorus; there's a beautiful voice in the audience that sounds like Joan Baez.

I am making this up?

Ed

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: BobLusk
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 07:37 PM

In the mid 1960's I heard the McPeake Family at the Village Gate in NY - Part of the Broadside Hootenannies. Old Francis said that he wrote it as a young man. Nowing the meaning of Thyme and seeing his grin as they were singing it left no doubt in my mind that he had certainly sang it as a young man anyway.

Bob Lusk

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:46 PM

Thanks for the clarification, MMario. As you may have guessed, I was imagining something like a solo performer hired for an evening's entertainment at a club, where repertoire, stylings, etc. are almost always at the singer's discretion. Now it makes sense.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:52 AM

This song is actually COPYRIGHTED? All this time I thought it was traditional? If this McPeake or whatever fellow says he wrote it, does that mean the tune; or the lyrics, because I've seen a million lyrics variations, both slight and extreme in various song books; or both? Does this mean I can't sing this wi' out paying royalties?

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: MMario
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:37 AM

Gary - my friend works in a situation where she is singing with a group in a theatrical performance for the public--therefore the lyrics as handed down by management are what is sung. period. It doesn't seem that strange to me, as managment also dictates what we wear, when and where we can eat, drink, etc.

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:18 AM

See... I always heard folks sing it as "I would never find another"... then someone told me that "I would surely find another" were the 'original' (whatever that means) lyrics... I myself prefer the latter.. but that's the cynical bastard that I am! LOL!

Like busses, there's always another one just down the street... but if yer gonna play this song at a wedding, go for the former version.. the mother of the bride will like it much better!! Believe me!!!

Now there's a gig from HELL!!!

Why some people invite a pagan folk singer into a church, I'll never know!

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:13 AM

Edward II do strange things to anything!!

Way back in my dancing days, I was quite happily step hopping around to a TedII gig, when I realised they were playing 'Montego Bay'!

LTS

Subject: RE: Wild mountain thyme
From: Stewie
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:38 AM

Have you heard the version where the UK band Edward II give it a reggae treatment - great stuff! Tradition is great, but having fun with songs is great too.