BS: Price of Gas

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: jpk
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:04 PM

one of the biggest causes of the rapid rise in fuel prices,is not really the source.
it is the damn stock market,well the commodeties traders in particularly,those are the real culprits.
they also refer to it as the futures market,buy and selling what does not yet exist,same as enron when they were hot.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:34 PM

It is of course true that in the US, we "have to" drive much greater distances than residents of other countries. Part of this (such as the building of far-flung suburbs) is because we have been spoiled by artificially low (or, at least, temporarily low) petroleum prices.

The problem is redoubled for some folks, because the same individuals who enjoy their high-salaried high-pressure jobs and move to the most distant (and most lily-white) suburbs are the same people who are compelled to display their wealth and conspicuous consumption by buying the most ostentatious gas-guzzling vehicles. Now they're paying $50-60 or more, twice a week, to fill up!

While I've always kind of looked down my nose at this type of person, some folks that I know and even somewhat like (e.g., some of my co-workers) definitely fall into this category, and I find myself feeling a little bit of sympathy for their poor misgiuded selves. Just a little bit!

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:31 PM

Price of Gas

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:23 PM

pdq has it right...population is THE major issue (or will be soon)...whether we run out of oil or not, we cannot support 50 billion people.

and by the way... "Motorists in the UK and throughout Europe have been paying the equivalent of about four dollars a gallon for years."

...yep, but most of them don't have to drive nearly as far as folks in the USA...I went to Madison, Wisconsin last week, (with a traveling companion buying the gas)...1700 miles round trip. I could simply have not afforded the trip on my own. We have people who commute 2 hours EACH WAY, 5 days a week....and sit in traffic a lot, too. People have been warned for years, but it takes a major hit to get them to decide to change habits, and some habits can't BE undone in a few years. There will be pain..........

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Just took, and passed, (yeah!) my local motorcycle drivers course. A medium sized bike gets 70 mpg. If I can now convince my wife to let me BUY one, I can start making my own little effoet for conservation.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Little under, little over.. what the hell, it's still bloody expensive!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:20 PM

Hey, folks this ain't nuthin but...

... Dick Cheney's Energy Policy at work which is based on:

    1. Consumption

    2. Maximum profits fir his oil buddies

Bobert's solutions:

    1. Conservation

    2. Higher per gallon retail pump prices for SUV's and
       other gas guzzlers

    3. Windfall profits tax (retroactive)

    4. Greater tax credits for alternative energy sources

    5. Better mass tansit

    6. Cummuter taxes based on number of miles from job

    7. More bike trails

    8. Tax credits for live-work-live developements/redevelopements

    9. Don't vote fir oilmen to run yer country

    10. Walk more

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:00 PM

In contrast to our European friends who pay a much higher gas price it should be noted that the price jump is significant to us in North America due to the distant we have to travel .... there is a considerable distance in getting our foods from California and Florida upto the Northeast, our manufactured goods from Michigan to Florida ... our families live farther apart ... it certainly will be much costlier to drive from St. Louis to see mom and dad in Conneticut at Thanksgiving, our daily commuting distance is much further .... in short the demographics are much, much different than Europe.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM

I know this isn't the point, but....


One thing that various people seem to have forgotton is that you can reform coal into petroleum. In simple terms, it's split and reassambled into smaller hydrocarbons, which tend to be in the petrol-diesel range

It's not an easy process, and it's dirty, but it works. The only two places I know it has been done at scale is Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa, neither of which could import oil. The US has huge coal reserves. So does the UK and Australia, and quite a bit of Western Europe.

We should be building serious nuclear power plants, actually do the research to get fusion working, and expect fairly much everything to run on batteries or hydrogen. We will not get the developed world to use less energy. We might get manage to change the source of it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:45 PM

US companies send a lot of food to third world countries, not for the benefit of the people in the third world countries, but to enhance their own bottom line. The better approach would be to stop flooding the markets of third world countries with our heavily subsidized (subsidized by US taxpayers) agricultural products (making it impossible for local farmers to compete), and to help the people in the third world countries become better producers of their own food.

This is not a difficult thing to do, by the way. Some organizations that are providing micro-loans to farmers in third world countries for things like foot powered water pumps, are helping those farmers to exponentially increase their yield per acre.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

It should be pretty obvious that the human race should be well underway in the effort to develop new sources for energy as well asd strategies for using the energy sources we currently have. There are historical forces moving in a constructive direction regardig these matters, but these forces are terribly underrepresented in the US Government right now.

GWB may not be personally responsible for the current squeeze, and things might not be too much better under any mainsteam "Republicat" President, BUT: Bush has certainly done everything in his power to favor the corporate interests most strongly committed to maintaining the most wasteful and inequitable aspects of the status quo.

Fellow Americans: don't expect too much sympathy from our overseas friends. Motorists in the UK and throughout Europe have been paying the equivalent of about four dollars a gallon for years. We're all in shock to see the price jump so suddenly from a dollar and a quarter all the way up to two and a half, but we're still getting off relatively cheaply, believe it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,number 6 (at work)
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

good article Bev and Jerry, or is it Bev or is it Jerry.

This energy crisis is a lot more complicated than trying to fill our gas tanks. A lot of these distant solutions on the horizon are not going to cut it, that is for mass viabel alternative . These solutions in themselves are energy driven to provide ... cost of producing hydrogen, the cost of producing solar panels (for every house, every office tower).

Anyway ... I beleive one major solution is that we will have to become more regionalized or community sufficient. That means in agriculture, providing the fulfillment of our daily goods that we require. Our own commuities will have to thrive, maybe bringing us back in touch not only in our environment but with ourselves.

It will mean the end of 'gated communities, the Walmarts, the home depots, 2 cars per family ... the generel excessivness that has grasped our society ... an execssivenss that has brought only hollow hopes and happiness.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:24 PM

I've got the solution: Kill every third child in the US. That, coupled with the die-off in less civilized countries will solve our problems handily.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:17 PM

ptr...if you work hard enough at misunderstanding something, you will ceratinly succeed.

We send the 'third world' huge amounts of food which we grow in the US. Food grown here is a more expensive and energy-consuming that the same crop grown in, say, Africa. We also use huge amounts of aviation fuel and/or gas/diesel to deliver it 1/2 way accross the planet.

If the world, as a whole, would settle on a plan for zero population growth, we could work on many problems, not just oil depletion. Read war, polution, etc. Every baby born, no matter where, pushes the solution these problems farther away.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:05 PM

some good things about the rising price of gasoline

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

rubbish pdq, you make it sound as if the 300 million born in the third world are huge users of energy. Well the 280 million or so in the US use up and pollute way more than those in the 3rd world.
5% of the worlds population using a 25% Of its energy supplies, and growing.

There really isnt any one energy solution but many diverse ones, for instance geothermal, ethanol, solar, wind, nuclear,..

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM

We would have plenty of oil if we did not have so many f**king people!!!

World population is experiencing an unprecidented growth. The 'developed world' brought almost all serious diseases under control in the last 70 years or so. Every day ships and planes leave the US with food, medical personel and supplies, headed to countries in the 'third world'.

Result: world population right now stands at 6.5 BILLION people!

The Third World has donated another 300 million babies just since president Bush was inaugurated in Jan 2001. Yep, the same as the population of the US in just four years. Trouble is, all the new arrivals are 100% consumer / 0 % producer.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:21 PM

Ecological Footprint Quiz (it isn't perfect, but it gives you a rough idea)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

Moot point--all of the above--within forty years. There will be none left.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,number 6 (at work)
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM

In regards to toxins, dirty environment we are all pretty well guilty for that .... how many of us drive hybrids, or do not own a car at all, ... how may of us use alternate methods of heating our homes, or use air conditioning, ... we all use products that are trucked in (long distances) to our localities ... especially us in Canada and the U.S. ?

I'm afraid we all have to wake up pretty fast.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:51 PM

Pearl paid a hell of a lot more than 50 dollars for that tank of gas.

She also paid for all of the corporate welfare that the oil companies receive from the US government (taxpayers). She is paying through the nose for the wars and covert operations that the US government is waging around the world to secure sources of oil. She is paying the health costs that result from the toxins released into the environment by the use of oil as an energy source. She is paying for the costs to clean up the environment caused by the use of oil as an energy source.

I don't know how much the hidden costs add up to for that tankfull, but I'll hazard a guess that it's enough to put her off using gas forever if she knew the true cost of that tank of gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

I seem to remember a website "UK" that you could visit to see what fuel was cheapest in your area, anyone know the name of one that still exists?

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:57 AM

if he knew it were that for a litre (just over 2 pints),

Stop confusing me Liz! You know I'm a very dim little Gnome...

A litre is 1.75 UK (20 fl oz) pints (ish) UNLESS of course you are refering to American (16 fl oz) pints in which case a litre is around 2.2 pints!

Now, you hadn't moved to the US last time I looked so is the South East of England now serving smaller pints than oop t'north? Wouldn't surprise me. Charge enough for it anyway...

BTW - back on thread - paid 98.9p per litre for BP premium diesel the other day. It does go further than standard but doesn't it seem dear:-(

Cheers

dtG

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM

The problem with hydrogen is the large amount of energy used to create it. From what I understand it is not a reasonable viable substitute for petroleum.

Our society has developed such a need for petroleum energy. This need or way of life being big box stores, our food demands are not regional, rather imported from distant sources. This process is escalating at such a rapid pace that the high price of fuel is certainly going to impact us pretty hard. We are going to have to find 'another way' but not soon enough. In the interim there will be a high price to pay, and when a remedy to this issue is found it will radically change our way of life, so radical it will in all probability cause some social disorders.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM

Petrolium is a huge concern.   We can make electricity from coal, nuclear, wind, solar, biomass, natural gas, hydro and geothermal.

We basically can only make petrolium from oil.   Bio Diesel is a nice option but way too small to have a serious impact.

Experts say there are 1 trillion barrels of oil in the earth. We currently use about 30 billion barrels a year and with India and China, it is growing by 1-2 billion barrels a year.   Do the math.

We have about a 25 year supply.   Lets suppose the experts are wrong and we have two trillion barrells left- double what we thought.   That only buys us 11 more years at the projected growth rates.

Hyrogen will allow us to run cars from coal or nuclear, but it will not be mainstream until 2020 according to the people I spoke with at the Hydrogen energy park in Southfield Michigan.   (rode in a hydrogen car- pretty cool)

Oil will continue to get more expensive as it is harder to find and more expensive to extract.   

I said these things on a nationally synidcated radio show a few months ago and my friend accused me of trying to scare everybody.   He doesn't say that today.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:24 AM

It's not the price I pay at the pump that worries me ... since I have the choice to control how far and often I drive ... it's the cost of the necesseties that will be affected (food, home heating, power) ... our economy is very energy 'driven' ... it's gonna hit us hard on every thing we use.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

My grandparents saw the very beginning of serious petroleum use.....my children will see the end of serious petroleum use. That, my friends, is about 200 years. 4 generations in the history of the world.

"It was all so different before everything changed."

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:17 AM

A story this morning in the news says that inflation in the US went up 0.5% during July, mostly because of petrol prices. That's 6% a year. I'm getting a 1% "cost of living adjustment" in my salary and am damned lucky to get that.

It highlights, underscores, italicizes, and bolds the need for the world to get off the oil teat. Hybrid vehicles are only part of the answer -- it's going to require a massive change in the way we travel and think.

Problem is, the "developed countries" have "demonstrated" to those less so that petroleum consumption is one of the earmarks of development and so very much of the world's economy is now slanted towards petroleum use (look at plastics, for just one example of many).

Of course, the problems facing the world are Hydra-headed because each problem (overpopulation, poverty, hunger, resource depletion, etc.) has manifold causes itself. A globally holistic view is needed, and I honestly don't see the politicians developing one.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:16 AM

Why is it GWs fault? Seriously, I don't know.

I do know the price of crude is set by OPEC and that the refinerys have to blend more 'grades' than necessary due to individual States requirements. If Congress would have established one environmental grade years ago, we would be paying a lot less today.

Additionally, demand helps to dictate the price. If we (SUVs, inefficient autos, etc) were not using so much, the price would drop to encourage us to buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:05 AM

I can remember the apoplexy my father had when petrol hit 95pence per gallon.... if he knew it were that for a litre (just over 2 pints), he'd be rotating in his tomb!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM

Eat lots of cabbage and you get lots of gas FREEE.....

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

That's REALLY cheap, unless the car is very small. It costs me about 57 UKP ($100) to fill up with diesel - that's a 60 litre (16 USG) tank.

But most of it here is tax, partly in a slightly forlorn attempt to wean people off using it too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:53 AM

What kind of car do you drive, Pearl?

Subject: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Pearl
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:27 AM

I just paid $50.00 to gas- up the car. I truly hope the people who voted for Bush and his gang are HAPPY! What do you expect when you elect a person who is beholden to big corporations, and this unnessasary war isn't helping. Why doesn't Bush go to his buddies, the Saudis, and pressure them instead of taking some time off (five weeks) What a big zero we have in the White House!