BS: lunar eclipse 27-28 Sep 2015

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:58 PM

If we're going to have a thread at all about science, it's important that contributors check their facts and post with accuracy. If that fails, and it becomes full of misinformation, it's even worse than a squabble about bugger all.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:52 PM

A thread about lunar eclipses, and it turns into the normal squabble about bugger all..

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:34 PM

Oklahoma's fracking quakes are now measuring 4.4

We knew this happens back in the 50's when the airfare force pumped nerve gas supplies deep underground east of the Rockies.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:10 PM

New Scientist Oct 3rd 2015 Page 12

"Deepest Quakes hit in Surprise Seasonal Cluster" -
true - not moon, but the Sun. And the Sun exerts about 1/7th of the tidal friction. Or to be more precise, 1/7th of the gravity variation cf Moon that we had to take into account when designing weighing machines of accuracies in the order of 1 part in 20,000. (beyond legal requirements but sometime we were asked). That was when I worked for W & T Avery of that trade.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 01:13 PM

Nothing here to embarrass me Steve.
No problem with any Guardian references either.
Just you desperately trying, and failing, to find fault with me.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 10:04 AM

I can assure that I am not at all desperate. That, however, is a word that could well be applied to your goalpost-moving and wriggling. It's all here for everyone to see, unless you can find a friendly mod to rid you of your embarrassment. Any progress on those Guardian references yet?

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:23 AM

Good morning.
Nothing I posted here suggests that I did not know that plate tectonics is recent.
Your claim is plain wrong.
Why so desperate to catch me out Steve?

You might remember me posting this,

Posted By: Keith A of Hertford
06-Dec-14 - 11:39 AM
Thread Name: BS: I am not an historian but........
Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
All those war diaries and letters and personal documents, tens of thousands, are used as source material.

Of course I am not saying the old historians were liars.
There were other historians at the time who challenged Taylor and Clark, but over time with increased knowledge a consensus has emerged.

It is very like the debate that became a consensus over plate tectonics or the big bang.

You are all in a time warp.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 03:00 PM

Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:23 PM

You made a bad call.
You thought you had caught me out, but it was you that got it wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:17 PM

Keep going, Keith. The corset shop is still open.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:54 PM

Yes it is what I was saying.
You are once again trying to make something of nothing.

"The idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes has been around for centuries."

I said that quite early in the thread (26th Sept.)

"The idea that the Moon plays an active roll in inching plate tectonic along has never been around at all."

That is new. Mr. Red just raised it.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 11:54 AM

Nope. That is not what you were saying. This is actually getting quite amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:26 AM

Steve, this discussion is about linking tides to earthquakes.

I responded to this,
"the idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes and in inching plate tectonic along has been around for many decades."

The idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes has been around for centuries.
The idea that the Moon plays an active roll in inching plate tectonic along has never been around at all.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:12 AM

Don't change the bloody subject. Admit that you got it wrong. I've forgotten a damn sight more about plate tectonics than you'll ever know. You've just proved it.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:08 AM

I know about plate tectonics thanks.
Plate movement is not influenced in any way by tides and no such theory exists at all.
The discussion is about a link between earthquakes and tides.
None has ever been found.
Look it up Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM

"the idea that the Moon plays an active roll....in inching plate tectonic along has been around for many decades."

So Keith sez " Centuries actually".

As plate tectonics theory has been around for only about fifty years, and even continental drift (not the same thing anyway) for just a hundred years, "centuries actually" is just plain wrong. Why don't you just admit that you didn't look it up?

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 04:42 AM

Steve, evidence has been looked for but not found.
That is a fact.
That is all I have said.
What do you challenge?

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:13 PM

the idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes and in inching plate tectonic along has been around for many decades.

"Centuries actually, but no evidence has ever emerged.
Not even for a slightly higher probability.
Sorry."

Plate tectonics as a theory had to wait until the 1960s. Even if you stretch the point and extend the notion back to Wegener's notion of continental drift, developed between 1912 and 1915, "centuries actually" is a completely inaccurate. I'm not surprised that your last word was an apology, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Rumncoke
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 05:00 PM

I went down to the harbour in Poole and my daughter and son in law came along, I took a blanket and a flask of coffee, wore a thick jersey, a had and lined woollen coat with a hood - so I was comfortable but made no preparations, put on jackets and so were very cold, so as soon as totality was achieved we left.

The moon was very bright as we made our way down to the water's edge, casting shadows and reflecting off the water. Although the eclipse was supposed to start with the penumbra dimming the moon, it was not at all obvious and only when the moon was in the shadow did it show.
The moon did appear reddish, with a paler area bottom left - left of the craters Tycho and Clavius and no higher up than Tycho.
It was a lovely clear night, just perfect for viewing the eclipse.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:43 AM

the idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes and in inching plate tectonic along has been around for many decades.

Centuries actually, but no evidence has ever emerged.
Not even for a slightly higher probability.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:39 PM

Hi, Joe. Back on Sept 15th you wrote, "Last time I was in Rhode Island (August), a violent storm cut the power in half the state."

How many blocks was that?
===========
I read about neutrinos having mass in the newspaper today. I'm relieved, frankly. If a neutrino is a particle, it's a thing, and a thing has mass.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 09:52 PM

The last time the new moon eclipse alignment with this earthquake/moon thesis all lined up to produce a significant earth quake was the world series quake in San Francisco. There were other quakes that took place in the same "ball park" but none with such perfect timing.

My own opinion is that tidal lunar forces probably increases earthquake likelihood by a percent or two but not enough to go on alert or call for evacuations. The movie San Andreas pretends a earthquake predictor formula exists but alas there is no reliable formula.


**********************************************
The big news is that neutrinos have mass!
**********************************************


Two people now share a Nobel prize for this affirmed discovery.
People who have suspected this and tried to measure their impact are now vindicated.

But the big impact that neutrinos have mass is basically the final nail in the coffin of the standard model of the particle universe.

The road forward is now open to understand dark matter and new gravitational truths.

For reasons too wicked to explain concisely, I expect we may soon*
be able to find new forms of Higgs Bosons that exist in the dark matter dimension and beyond. There may be as many as 8 bosons respondsible for mass and anti mass. With that knowledge miracles by the hand of man will be truly interstellar.


* 100 years or less.
(anyone here remember the song Neutrino by Klaatu?)

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:43 PM

Brother-in-law remarked "the idea that the Moon plays an active roll in earthquakes and in inching plate tectonic along has been around for many decades. but he did caveat his answer by saying his use of seismology was more alied to continental shelf slumping. Basically the undersea effects of earth tremours on accumulated mud escarpments. They also cause tsunamis. Maybe like the one in the North Sea 8,200 year ago

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 06:53 AM

Mr.Red, we have already discussed that piece.
It refers to some unusual, slow (over weeks!) tremors only detectable with instruments.
Here again is a quote from it,
"This is a significant piece of work," says Brian Baptie of the British Geological Survey. "People have been looking for links between earthquake activity and tidal cycles for many years, but there is no compelling evidence."

He could cite quite a few very dry articles I warrant, not the least his own maybe!

I would be interested and surprised.
I am not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 06:45 AM

Hmmm Moon and earthquakes. a cursory search:

available if you are logged in to New Scientist "Tidal link to earthquakes revealed at last" - "Daily news 22 November 2007"
" - also referenced as [ Science (DOI: 10.1126/science.1150558) ]

&

Even the previous iteration of the collider in Cern had to factor in the state of the Tide in the North Sea. The crust and mantle bending with the weight of the water caused by er, um, er (don't prompt me) ahhhhh - the Moon. (if I can correctly say that).

And just because I am currently reading page 16 of the 19 Sept New Scientist (In Brief) where it reports the "Moonquakes" attributed to the ovality of the Moon's orbit (aka tidal friction). And that on a body with no plate tectonics to dominate!

All this before I quiz my Brother-in-law Dr Keith Lewis - a retired senior marine geologist at NZOI/NIWA. And earthquakes figure very highly in GodZone! He could cite quite a few very dry articles I warrant, not the least his own maybe! Too right mate!

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 10:02 AM

T0 misclarify my remystifying remarks regarding full blood super moon rhetoric and unobscurify my purpose of employing mad men enthusiasm to those bothered by my selling a lunar eclipse as fun and hard as possible is that a full eclipse offers the possibility of seeing not only a simple cosmic event but sharing an opportunity for romance and once in a lifetime favorable condition to see objects impact the moon.

On 5 25 75 I had such an opportunity to see an impact during a lunar eclipse. It was only a three second event but beautiful.

Powerful events of cosmic proportions often move at the speed of light so you would never see them coming or conclude. You would never see a phase change event of the universe. You might see a mass extinction gamma ray burst or solar mega flare. You might have a couple seconds to see a super nova explode 50 light years away before being cooked but some things you could never see coming.

If your questions are passive aggressive means of establishing top doggedness or just enjoy the luxury of complaining kevetching and general "you're full of crapism so go piss in the ocean" ...then enjoy it to the max because with me, you can do so with complete safety

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 06:37 AM

I was accused of "The arrogance of ignorance" for saying what the world's leading geologists also say.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 06:32 AM

I think the piece is saying that there appears to be some sort of link between the two phenomena but nobody has conclusive evidence for or against it.
It is a bit like ball lightning science accepts that it exists but no one can explain what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:58 AM

From your link Derrick,
""This is a significant piece of work," says Brian Baptie of the British Geological Survey. "People have been looking for links between earthquake activity and tidal cycles for many years, but there is no compelling evidence.""

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:54 AM

The theory of a link has been around for literally centuries, but it has never gained acceptance.
People still look for a link and sometimes claim to have found one, but the suggestion is not accepted.
I gave this link days ago, on the 26th.
http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakeSunMoon.html

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:52 AM

Keith,
      Or this one      



www.newscientist.com/article/dn12952

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:36 AM

As I correctly said
spot the arrogance of ignorance!

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:10 AM

Keith,
      try the link below



http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1150558

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:54 AM

Note what Chantey Lass said about eclipse night in Rhode Island: not hot and humid, not too cold, not raining or snowing, with no mosquitoes or other insects.

Then imagine what it's like in Rhode Island the other 364 nights of the year....

Last time I was in Rhode Island (August), a violent storm cut the power in half the state.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM

I am a subscriber to New Scientist and read it every week.
Anyone can search it online, so if you find something I can access the article.
You will find no link between tidal friction and seismic activity.
As I correctly said, "Certainly heard of tidal friction, but never of any link to seismic activity because none has been found."

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM

Certainly heard of tidal friction, but never of any link to seismic activity because none has been found. Ah! The arrogance of ignorance!
spot the guy who doesn't read the New Scientist.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:46 PM

Penny S., wow! Splendid!

Glad I noticed I'd lost my cookie and restored it before posting this!

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:58 PM

Thank you. They are very insignificant stars - I looked them up in Stellarium, and they only have catalogue numbers, no names. So it's pretty good that they are visible - I wouldn't expect them usually. They are in Pisces.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 02:44 PM

Good Penny!
Stars show in the total frame.
Excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 01:54 PM

The morning got very complicated, as once the eclipse was total, I couldn't get an image on the screen. Moved down to the garden and struggled with a very small aperture in the trees, and not being able see where I was putting my feet, and not knowing where anything was because it had been moved to accommodate the scaffolders. And not being able to open the door properly because of a scaffold pole. Moved out to the street in which I stood (a cul-de-sac). Photos here.


Super eclipse

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:07 AM

Bloody clouds. Bloody fog. But the last time this happened we didn't have the internet either to tell us it was coming or to watch in streaming video...

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 08:46 PM

From my home in Rhode Island, the eclipse was beautiful. It was a great night to watch it, too: not hot and humid, not too cold, not raining or snowing, with no mosquitoes or other insects.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 08:12 PM

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Jenny and Steve.

I forgot to mention that we felt the moon needed cheering up, so we sang "Shine On, Harvest Moon." My friend Mark actually knew the verse, and we all joined in on the chorus.

Later I whistled the entirety of "Sail Along, Sil'vry Moon" by Billie What's-his-Name. (I had to whistle because I don't know the words.)

'Allegheny Moon' received favorable notice, but nobody knew the lyrics for that either.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 07:01 PM

Well I too am in the south-west, near currently very sunny Bude. It was a fantastically clear and starry night. Orion was almost as stunning as the eclipsed moon, and Venus was like a beacon in the south-east before the eclipse had finished. I had to lean out of me spare bedroom window to crane round to see the eclipse properly, and, as I don't wear jim-jams (down, girls!), things were getting a bit parky. I must point out that we have no neighbours looking in! I got a few pics on my hundred-quid compact camera, but, quality-wise, they will be mementos, not moneymakers. The moon was more of a dark coppery tint than the blood red of headlines, but gorgeous nonetheless. Today's weather was sparkling and we toddled off to our favourite garden, Trebah near Falmouth, where the amazing groves of mophead hydrangeas were impressive (don't knock 'em until you've seen 'em!). It's been a long day!

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:16 PM

I had a wonderful view of the eclipse in the early hours of the morning (in UK's south west). The sky was clear, the night cool and calm, and there were no trees or other things in the way. I even managed a few quite passable pictures with my little camera. And to top it off, it's my birthday. Nice of the multiverse to put on such a good show for me. I'm well pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:55 AM

I agree with Keith. With only one eclipse, a disc would be possible, but since one person can see many eclipses in their lifetime, and those will be in different parts of its orbit, from the east, through the zenith to the west, the only shape which will project a curved shadow on the Moon is a sphere. That is, assuming the same or near the same viewpoint.

My first eclipse was due east of where I was. The disc would have had to be vertical, not horizontal to project a curve there. Any disc would have to swivel to be orthogonal to the Moon at the time of an eclipse. Didn't notice that last night - did you?

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:31 AM

The first lunar eclipse I ever saw, in the 60s, was too dark to be visible even with a telescope.
It was because of volcanic dust in the atmosphere.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:24 AM

Five people set up chairs on my front porch last night, and we watched and chatted for an hour and a half. We got an excellent view of the moon, with naked eye, with binoculars and through a telescope.

We discussed shooting out a nearby streetlight, but realized it was much less trouble to hold your hand up in front of it and block its light.

The moon never looked red but stayed a tasteful gray. So much for 'the blood moon'!
===========
I think that worrying about global warming and earthquakes makes as much sense as worrying that two 18-wheelers had their windshield wipers going before they collided.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:16 AM

Keith, the shadow of Terra on the moon can also be interpreted as a disk rather than a sphere.

Well said, EBarnacle. Poor degree of evidence, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: lunar eclipse this weekend
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:15 AM

It could be interpreted as a disc once, but as the projection is always a disc whatever the angle, it has to be a sphere.