BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

People who say, "Lighten up, folks. If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have anything to worry about," simple haven't a clue. They'll get the clue in spades when they get their butts hauled in for interrogation and suddenly discover that what they didn't think was wrong, someone else does.

Of course they're confident that it will never happen. Well, we'll see. . . .

The point is not that it will happen, but that it can happen. And if it can happen, it might happen.

Also, it violates the Fourth Amendment.

". . . damned inconvenient, that Constitution, so let's just ignore it. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:36 AM

Lep, I'm not worried about the local cops -- I get along well with them (even gave them a Class IIA protective vest, but how I came by one is a long, long story -- PM me if you want to know). Heck, I've worked with them on several things in several places and, for a while, was MP/CID in the Army. It's the Fibbys who bug librarians. The local folks are too busy (as are the state cops), too underfunded (like the libraries), and too smart.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: GUEST,terilu
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:55 AM

I think it's a 1984/Farenheit 451/Brave New World/X-Files/People's History/Handmaid's Tale/Steal This Book!/UtneReader/Resurgence/Mother Jones/Daily Worker/Yes!/Mother Earth News kind of plot, and also a way to keep all these FBI people busy and earning their keep! Hey, you never know when another terrorist might be hiding out in your local library.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:14 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:03 AM

Trust me - little sage-walking-kitty

It is more than your library card that is being watched!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

However, a puff of herbal smoke combined with a mystic Indian incantation spoken within the healing-circle can render you invisible to all....if you so desire.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: leprechaun
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM

Ebbie I don't have time to check out what somebody's reading if they're suspected of selling heroin. If a specific person kills somebody and we develop probable cause on that specific person, we'll make the time. If I find a book report or a photo of a specific book at a crime scene, I might try to find out who checked out that book, in which case accurate records might come in handy. It would be a long shot even if such databases were kept.

But the idea that I might go searching databases to figure out who's reading subversive literature and then hunt them down and oppress them is just a ridiculous paranoid fantasy. For one thing, my bosses aren't willing to pay me the overtime, and I sure as hell wouldn't do anything that boring for free.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM

If it doesn't matter what you have read, why mention it specifically in the Patriot Act?

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 02:39 PM

No, no, you miss the point! Libraries cannot now and never have been able to tell anyone what books you've read! What you have checked out now, yes. What you own money on, yes. But it is NOT possible to provide a list to ANYONE, even yourself, of everything you've read or checked out in the past. Libraries don't have the time, staff or money for such. Besides, they always have and always will continue to cooperate with law enforcement (or anyone else) with a warrant or court order for the records.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

I don't think Leprechaun is saying that the criminal authorities have more important things to do than to check on what books you are reading. He is saying the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

Sandra in Australia: it boggles my mind why you and so many others blame Bush and Blair for the current problems. You evidently do not credit Saddam at all for being responsible, right? If that is your position, then I think that you and the others are contributing to the emasculation of the United Nations, the one institution that so many of you hold so dear. Want to know why? Because any country can snub it's nose at the U. N. anytime a Resolution by the Security Council is lodged against it for any reason and get by with it.

I think Lep is right in that the police and the FBI have far more important things to do than check on what books I check out at the library.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: leprechaun
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

I'd like to thank Rapaire for so zealously guarding my rights. I may not be a terrorist, but if I decide to murder my wife and collect the insurance, there may be some books in the library that will help me bring that about. In that case, I would be very happy to know that Katlaughing and Rapaire have erased the records of my having checked out books on poisons, or poisonous mushrooms, or how to get a new identity and move to a Caribbean Island, or Forensic Evidence. As a potential murderer, it's comforting to know that any nosy cop who wonders why my wife is suddenly dead will be met by a dear little bun-haired old lady who will say "F**k You, get a warrant." The rest of the murderers and I are real happy that the records of any books we check out will be expunged to keep those nosy cops from using them as evidence.

What's really cool about the whole thing is the people who want to expunge those records in the name of protecting everybody's rights all share the ludicrous notion that cops have time to go on fishing expeditions for random terrorists or murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

Rapaire-while that is certainly a possibility, very few opponents willing to use such a strategy would wait until they had something credible to use, but would simply make the attack through a "non-affiliated" third-party sponsor. Besides, I should hope that the FBI is beyond accusing suspected terrorists of homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:20 AM

DougR, there is a world of difference between "Let's see what might be there" and "We want specific information on...." After all, people are supposed to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures. And I understand that no warrant is supposed to be issued except with probable cause and the warrant is supported by an oath, and it specifically describes the place to be searched and the people or things to be taken or searched for.

As for terrorism in the late '60s and '70s, the FBI was fishing for "student activists" of the SDS or Weather Underground -- and for those who might have demonstrated against the VN war or against Tricky Dicky.

If anyone doesn't think that what you're reading matters, why then are you reading it?

But I'll give you a hypothetical case: a mayor is up for re-election and it's a close race. She's taking a course in social problems at a local college, on her own time and to increase her knowledge. As part of the course she checks out material on lesbian culture. Her opponent learns that she is reading this stuff (that's a technical librarian-type word). It doesn't matter to him *why* she's reading it -- it's obvious that she is a lesbian instead of the conservative, family-oriented sort her ads proclaim her to be.

If you doubt this sort of thing could happen, don't.

I suggest reading the book "Arsenals of a Democratic Culture." It's an old book, written right after WWII, but gives a terrific overview of the changing views and roles of the public library in society. If you can find it, that is. You may have to get it on interlibary loan.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

As an ex-librarian I like the idea of a law saying librarians will have to tell the authorities what the patrons (all or selected) are reading AND the law-makers not checking to see if they keep the info.

I have enjoyed this thread - like Mary I borrow widely (I love the return trolley!) & also enjoyed the comment from Forum Lurker that any terrorist borrowing a book on a suspicious subject would not be very efficient.

It's a sad comment on our modern world that people like your Bush & our little Johnny can help create such an atmosphere of suspicion & hatred.

Fortunately there are folks who ridicule them, hold them up for what they are & fight against them. Long may they live & prosper.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:08 AM

Until they decide that all Arabs are suspicious, as they are already doing. Or, they decide all Hispanics, Norwegians, Scots, Irish, Panamanian...you get the idea, Doug?

It's the erosion of privacy and rights, NOT what we are reading!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:54 AM

Rapaire: in the 1970's we were not faced with the terrorist threat we are faced with now.

Sinsull: so you think it would not be helpful for the FBI to have information about a suspected terrorist that might help them apprehend them? It's "none of their God Damn business?" I repeat: the FBI doesn't give a damn about what a Mudcatter reads at the public library, unless said Mudcatter is a suspected terrorist (which I seriously doubt). It is, in my opinion, a tempest in a teapot.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM

I'm not sure that there's any restriction or erosion of rights going on here. The public library is a service that the county (or possibly city or state) chooses to provide, and if they want to keep a list of what you check out, that's there business. I don't think that there's any useful information to be gathered, though. Anyone who checks out books on chemical synthesis or airline piloting when planning a terrorist attack probably isn't going to be succesful in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM

In the 1970s the FBI tried to bully librarians into providing patron information -- who reads what -- to them. The general response (including that of those dear little old bun-haired ladies) was, "F**k you, Jack -- get a warrant!" State legislators took note and, as far as I know, passed laws in every state guaranteeing the privacy of library records (unless there was a court order or warrant). The FBI gave up trying to bully librarians.

The Patriot Act still requires a warrant/court order, but makes it far, far easier to get one. Moreover, it makes it possible to use library records as part of a fishing expedition, NOT a search for evidence of an actual crime.

"Whatever you say say nothin'
When you talk about you know what..."

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM

DougR - because it is none of their god damn business!

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:42 PM

"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation
must begin by subduing the freeness of speech"
   Benjamin Franklin

"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.
It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."
   Supreme Court Justice William O Douglas

The way things are going we'll have to resort to underground libraries in order to read;
Harry Potter series- by JK Rowlings
Of Mice and Men- by John Stienbeck
The Chocolate War- by Robert Cormmir
I Know Why Caged Bird Sings-by Maya Angelou
The Catcher on the Rye- By J.D. Salinger

These books and more are on a book challenged list. Harry Potter is a big one for the book burner's out there. Deals in the occult don't you know.
I think there has always been those people out there trying to suppress knowledge and freedom of speech. The Government keeping it's proverbial 'eye' on us, is another form of repression. Reading Ben Franklin's words could put me on a terrorist list at this stage in their game!
I had just heard they are going to revise the Patriot act- that's all I heard, but I am hopefull that they give up some of this bullshit and return some rights.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:19 PM

Why on earth do any of you think the FBI cares a whit what books you have been reading? Now a suspected terrorist, that's a different story. They might find it pretty revealing and could provide them information they need to help nail him/her.

I do not think the sky is falling on this one.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

Well, you see, nobody who wrote the Patriot Act seems to have actually ASKED the librarians if something could be done....

Yeah, we COULD keep a list of everything you've read, but who would pay for the trouble? Another "unfunded mandate" from Washington, requiring local agencies to spend money that they could better spend in some other way, perhaps on building maintenance or buying children's materials?

There are subversive materials in libraries, always has been: "The Communist Manifesto", "The Anarchist's Cookbook" and other comes to mind. I should also mention "The Federalist Papers", "The Constitution of The United States," "The Magna Carta," and one or two others as well. And, of course, "The Bible," "The Quran", "The Tao Tchin" and so on.

Know what the most banned book in history is? The Bible.

Your Public Library: hotbed of subversion, garden of revolution, people's university, cradle of an informed citizenry. It's not just for story hour anymore! (then again, it never was).

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: denise:^)
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:16 PM

As much as I don't like the idea, I have to chuckle at someone perusing the list of the books I'd checked out, looking for some dirt...
I happen to enjoy historical fiction--you know, wagon trains, log cabins, one-room schools--not a lot of traitorous activities in these!

This is about the same as when I worked at a middle school, and the computer room aide was reading my e-mail. I knew, because of some of the comments she made to me about places I was going, etc., that I hadn't mentioned at school. I just laughed--if she was trying to find smut, she was checking the WRONG inbox! Just a lot of notes about rehearsal times, contra dances, new tunes to learn (and even the occasional PDF of sheet music--oh, my!)
She must have been SO disappointed!
Well, the feds would be, too...
Denise:^)

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM

Yikes! I don't have anything to hide (Mostly Berenstain Bears books, Clifford the Big Red Dog, The Day Peter Stuyvesant Sailed To Town, etc...) but I don't like this idea one itty bit.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 03:50 PM

Thanks for the correction, Mary in Kentucky. I just talked with the reference desk at my local library- and she said that it's just not true- that public libraries don't have the money (a system would have to pay for that kind of storage), the manpower, or the interest, and besides, the Alaska Privacy Act prohibits that kind of activity.

(Thanks, Rapaire. I admire librarians and revere the system!)

As for comments, I also often get into a discussion of individual books I have read or am in the process of checking out. I often recommend a particular book- or conversely tell them something is badly written. These are literate human beings behind the desk and they take pride in being informed. A library is one of my favorite places.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 03:05 PM

******CORRECTION*********

I just talked to Mrs. C at my library -- and they DON'T ahve a record of all the books I've checked out. They just keep a record of current ones out. (Maybe that's the list I saw - or my overdue books - which are usually quite a few!) Sorry for the misrepresentation. But I'm still suspicious that the info can be retrieved.

Here in a small town I sometimes get comments on the books I check out. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

That's it in a nutshell, Art! One of the first laws of the Presidency should be "govern the country you are in, in the world it is in, and not some other imaginary world or country".

This of ocurse sounds terribly naive to those who have jumped out of bed at the sound of the mournful sireens, grabbed there shotguns and stand ready in their nightshirts for the enemy to stand up and be beaten.

I may eat my words, someday, of course, but right now that's how I sees it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:36 PM

So, the FBI now has legal authority to obtain information that basically doesn't exist? Somehow, that corresponds with the level of much that is coming out of the present Administration...

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM

My library went to a new electronic card system several years ago. When this card is swiped, there is a database of every book I've checked out since they started using the card. I could easily get Mrs. C. or Stephanie or any of the librarians to print out a copy of my database.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM

Ebbie, I sure do!

First, think of everything you've read. Second, write it down.

Any library on an automated system (as far as I know, and I'm familiar with the larger systems) maintains a record of who has what checked out ONLY as long as that person has it checked out (and usually for a short time afterwards, in case the item is found to be damaged -- say, 10 days). The record of who checked the item out is wiped when someone else checks out the item. Briefly, the library only knows (or cares) who has an item as long as the item is checked out (plus a bit, usually determined by the library).

For 99.9% of library patrons, there is no record, no list, of what any patron has checked out in the past.

About that 0.1% -- that's the homebound folks, those who for one reason or another (age, disability, etc.) can't get to the library and the library brings the books to them. Records are maintained on what these people check out because if someone's been homebound for a some time the librarians who do the work don't remember whether or not the patron has read a particular book. Mind you, this is NOT a function of the standard library software, but an additional product that has to be purchased. Lots of libraries don't have such software, or maintain such lists manually. Mind you, not many criminals or terrorists are nonogenerians in wheelchairs....

Of course, if you keep an item, the library will know who took it out. And it is possible that backup tapes could be scanned, but that would only be for a short period as these tapes are reused.

Briefly put: libraries don't maintain records on who took out what for very long. To do so would be too costly in terms of money, staff, and storage, and libraries have a tough enough time making ends meet now.

A library which keeps manual records of circulation might be able to do some such, but you'd have to go through every book. The records aren't kept the way the Justice Dept. would like them, I guess. Helping the cops hasn't been part of the library's mission in the past. 8-)

However -- your email is another story. THAT doesn't have to be read at the point where it's created, but can be read at any server between the point of creation and its destination.

Librarians are just pissed off about the erosion of rights...we all should be.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:59 PM

Maybe libraries do keep records of books we have checked out. I dunno. Of course, books that are currently 'out' are tagged to the last known borrower, but I thought the info gets wiped afterward.

In the 'old' days, the days of the rental card in the pocket of each book, each borrower's signature was on each card. It was kind of fun to see who else had checked it out. (And sometimes I found that I myself had checked it out a year or two before.)

It's my impression that the library does NOT have a list of the hundreds and hundreds of books I have checked out in the last 15 years. If they do, I myself would like a list.

Rapaire, as a librarian, do you know how I'd go about finding my list?

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

The library has always had some kind of record of the books we check out. They have to, otherwise they wouldn't know where to look for books that don't come back when they're supposed to.

The FBI getting involved, now, that's a little different...

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:47 PM

Wll, I don't think of it as a threat based on what most of us would be reading, but another of those removals of our freedom. By our self-assurances that nothing we read will be of interest to the FBI, are we sending tacit approval for the government to continue to take away our freedoms?

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

I use the library regularly, and I've notice that they have a record of the books I check out. I'm essentially a "grazer" -- I check out as many at a time as they will let me get out the door with, sometimes 20. I like to grab all the "new" books on special display, and then check out the "returned book" rack to see what everybody else has been reading. In the past I've checked out just about every book they have on various types of gardening and music. My list is so eclectic as to be essentially meaningless. (Except that the cooking books are conspicuous by their absence!)

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

Well, I get kinda tempted to go to the library and take out a mess of interesting titles like "Al Queda White Pages -- Who's Who in the Islamic Underground", and "Aluminum, Uranium and You -- Centrifuging at Home for Fun and Profit!", and maybe "Take Me to Cuba -- the Hijackers Ultimate Handbook" or maybe even a nice mystery novel like "T is for Terror" or "The Cat Who Stole a Jetliner".

But I might get in trouble, huh, even if I could find them...

A

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM

I haven't been to the library in ages. I'm one of those weird people who likes to BUY books. The last two books I bought were: Chinese Brush Painting, by Kwan Jin, and Eighty Appalachian Songs by Cecil Sharp.

Pretty subversive material. Especially the Chinese book. I might paint flowers or something.

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

And watch that Kroger card too!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:58 AM

Yup. The American Library Association and librarians in general have been concerned about the Patriot Act since about the day after it was passed (I'm a librarian). The FBI, etc. say that there are sufficient guarantees built into the Act to protect the Rights given in the Constitution, but librarians aren't as stupid as some folks seem to think. ALA is fighting this, but being against such things gets you branded as a traitor and, let's face it, ALA doesn't have deep pockets even with the support of the ACLU.

Sometimes, these days, librarians seem to stand alone in many areas.

Subject: BS: FBI & Your Library Card - Libraries Warn
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Interesting article:

Along with the usual reminders to hold the noise down and pay overdue fines, library patrons in Santa Cruz are seeing a new type of sign these days: a warning that records of the books they borrow may wind up in the hands of federal agents.

The signs, posted in the 10 county branches last week and on the library's Web site, also inform the reader that the USA Patriot Act "prohibits library workers from informing you if federal agents have obtained records about you."

click here for the rest of it.