Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha (update)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM

I don't know how I missed this three years ago, but last night we watched a docu on PBS about the Lost Treasures of Afghanistan by the National Geographic. Yes, we lost the Buddhas, BUT the news of what may be there is very exciting, plus what they've already found.

I also was so moved by the artist/doctor who painted over works of art with watercolours to hide the fact that living things were in the pictures, which the Taliban deemed a sin and would destroy. He and the fellows who helped him, very ingeniously, saved over 90 paintings.

Anyway, a bright spot in a sad history.

kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

My favorite definition of POWER has always been------the degree to which you can inconvenience others. All of these rules are affronts against everyone on the planet. All one need do is to apply the pleasure principle or even the goden rule to recognize the truths of the situations.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:54 PM

Interesting thread

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM

...religious freedom is one of our differences...

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 02:33 PM

Maybe some small glimmer of hope, the CBC radio reported last night that a group of 23 or so Islamic religous scholars had got together and have approached the Taleban and as a result the shelling had stopped and was on hold and that only 25% of the statues have been destroyed so far. What will happen now remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM

The Aztecs were a pretty bloody culture when it came to things like human sacrifice, but archeologists have determined that they had a very high level of scientific development in such things as astronomy, calendars, herbal medicines, and . . . what else? We'll never know! They left plenty of books or scrolls, but none of them survived. The clergy, who followed in Cortez's footsteps, burned them all. They were the works of heathens! So they obliterated an entire culture. Same with Pizarro and the Incas. One wonders what the world lost. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM

There's a quote from Chesterton that's apt, as there so often is, from The Ballad of the White Horse. Alfred is reproaching the Danish King for neglecting to look after the White Horse, cut in the chalk hillside long long before their time:

Therefore your end is on you,
Is on you and your kings,
Not for a fire in Ely fen,
Not that your gods are nine or ten,
But because it is only Christian men
Guard even heathen things.

"For our God hath blessed creation,
Calling it good. I know
What spirit with whom you blindly band
Hath blessed destruction with his hand;
Yet by God's death the stars shall stand
And the small apples grow."

Unfortunately it has not been consistently true that "Christian men Guard even heathen things". And fortunately "only" is less than just to many other people. But the principle is right. True religion involves respect to other people and to their works.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:46 AM

To katmandoobiedoo, thanks very much for your posting. That website looks very interesting.

Namaste,

kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:16 AM

Guest Roger,

I like to think a mature society is one that can continue to display the artifacts of its past, whether those conform to current prejudices or not.

Maybe one day there'll actually be one, ya think?

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 06:39 AM

Distressing though cultural vandalism may be, it is, and has always been, widespread: in UK under Henry VIII and again under Oliver Cromwell "graven images" were destroyed in churches. Classical statues and Oceanic images were mutilated and destroyed in the name of morality and Christianity, statues of unpopular politicians are usually destroyed in revolutions. I like to think a mature society is one that can continue to display the artifacts of its past, whether those conform to current prejudices or not.
RtS

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 06:19 AM

Deuteronomy Chapter 7, 5: But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Same sad story all over again.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 06:09 AM

If their descriptions about the nature of their gods are different enough, it is insulting to both to claim they are worshipping the same one.

So far as I'm aware neither Mohammed nor his followers have ever for a moment suggested that Allah is "not the same" deity as worshipped by Jews or Christians. To suggest anything like that would in fact be inconsistent with the reiterated profession that "there is only one God".

Essentially these are variations on the same religion, especially Judaism and Islam. All three have holy books and all kinds of other things in common. Including at times some things that aren't too nice.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: GUEST,kathmandoobiedoo
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 04:09 AM

This is truly sad. I had not heard of it over here in kathmandu, but I have copied this entire thread section and will read at my leasure. I don't get on line much, but if there are mudcat buddhists or otherwise folky types who are interested in nepal then you can write me at [e-mail] namaste Willow

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 04:00 AM

First thought, rage. What unmittigated gall to destroy someone's work of beauty?

Second thought, my own lil'buddhahood is glad the firepower was directed at stone for once and not at a person.

~JenElle

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 12:40 AM

I remember Arms Wide Open, beautiful song. I will have to listen for One, also. Thanks, again.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:58 PM

Thanks Kat, it's "One", by Creed (of "Arms Wide Open" fame). It was a number one song back in '99.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:49 PM

Matt, who is that by? Very moving, thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:14 PM

Affirmative may be justified
Take from one give to another
The goal is to be unified
Take my hand be my brother
The payment silenced the masses
Sanctified by oppression
Unity took a back seat
Sliding further in regression

One
One
The only way is One
I feel angry I feel helpless
I want to change the world
I feel violent I feel alone
Don't try and change my mind

Society blind by color
Why hold down one to raise another?
Discrimination now on both sides
Seeds of hate blossom further
The world is heading for mutiny
When all we want is unity We may rise and fall but in the end
We meet our fate together

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:49 PM

"Allah" does indeed translate "God" (just as "El" or "Elohim" from Hebrew). This doesn't mean any two religions that use the term "God" for their deity are worshipping the same one -- if their descriptions about the nature of their gods are different enough, it is insulting to both to claim they are worshipping the same one.

IMHO, anyway.

ALex

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:43 PM

I'm not going to get into an argument over this, but I get the feeling that what I have written is being misinterpreted.

LR, I don't read USA Today. I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on in the world and I trivialize nothing. What set my teeth on edge was the use of the word "inconvenience" and I was reacting to that. There are various degrees of abomination, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as "inconveniences." I think that trivializes them.

And McGrath, I intended to insult and provoke no one. Allah, God, Yahweh, whatever name you wish to use, I am fully aware that they all refer to the same. I was referring to this specific situation, and if someone feels insulted and provoked because of my objections to the way women are currently being treated in many parts of the world, and have been for centuries, by Muslim, Christian, or whatever, then so be it! I'll take the hit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM

Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it -- at least if they want credit for the class.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM

(I'll risk the wrath of Allah, or at least His followers here) in other Muslim dominated regimes is also an atrocity.

Allah is just the Arabic way of saying God. One God, the same God Christians and Jews worship, so presumably "His followers" means any Christians or Jews on the Mudcat, as well as Muslims.

Using it the way you did in that sentence there, Don, came across as intentionally insulting and provocative.

I trust "in other Muslim dominated regimes" includes an implied "some". At this point in history it's probably true to say that "Muslim dominated regimes" are on the whole less open than "Christian dominated regimes" - but that's a historical accident, linked to historical causes like colonialism and exploitation and cultural imperialism. (For eaxample, the Taliban are the children of what the Cold War did to Afghanistan.)

For many periods in history precisely the opposite generalisation would be true, with a better chance of finding a relatively open and free society in Muslim countries than in many Christian countries.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:16 PM

Well, Don, much of what the Taleban are enforcing isn't Islamic law, it's tribal Pashtun law. Sure, the Taleban call it Islamic, just like female circumcisers in Africa call their actions Islamic. But in both cases, it's just tribal customs playing Muslim. Don't believe everything you read in USA Today, man.

Ah, and what I said was: "the lives of women in Taleban-controlled Afghanistan are difficult and unfair, but they are mere inconveniences in comparison with the conditions experienced by non-Pashtun Afghans of both sexes."

That's not true? These restrictions are as bad as death? And almost as bad as being gassed in a Nazi death-camp? I'd bet that some Uzbek man, now rotting with a bullet in his skull in a shallow grave outside Mazar-e-Sharif, would GLADLY trade in his fate for the chance to live the difficult, inconvenient life of an Afghan woman. It cheapens the sacrifices of the dead to compare the two.

:)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:47 PM

S'okay, Kat. If you don't get worked up about some things that are going on in the world, they gotta check to make sure you're still breathing. Blessings! You're alive!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 07:18 PM

Oh my ardency and passion have made me too fervent, eh? *BG* Gotta work on getting my balance back!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:01 PM

I know it's hard to have a perfect sense of humor on something you're worked up about, Kat. Nobody is blaming you, just because you missed the side of the barn from five feet with a blunderbuss. Hehehehehehe.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:53 PM

Tsk! **BG**

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:44 PM

Well, *I* read it as sarcasm, Don, so you haven't totally lost your touch.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM

Thanks, Don, for clearing that up. I didn't think it sounded like you, from what I've seen of your postings in other threads, esp. the Walt Robertson thread, but I wasn't sure (despite kudos about you when last I spoke to Sandy Paton!) *sheepish grin*

kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 03:33 PM

Kat, what I said was pure sarcasm.

To regard any kind of repression as an "inconvenience," I think, fails to grasp the reality of the situation. What happened to Jews and others under the Third Reich was an atrocity of the most egregious kind. The condition of women in Afganistan and (I'll risk the wrath of Allah, or at least His followers here) in other Muslim dominated regimes is also an atrocity. It is not quite of the magnitude of the Holocaust, in that women are not being murdered wholesale, but it is an abomination nonetheless.

I found the serious use of the word "inconvenience," in reference to the situation of Muslim women, particulary in Afganistan, rather disturbing. I was giving Lepus Rex a dope-slap. Sorry, LR, but that's my position.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM

Wow, not sure if I am reading you right or not, Don. I am amazed if you truly mean that regarding the women in Afghanistan. Imagine if men were treated that way...I doubt they would consider it a minor inconvenience. There are men who are being oppressed almost as much as the women in Afghanistan. Many, many Afghans have lost their lives, disappeared, etc. It may not be on the same scale as the nazis, but it is the same ilk who are carrying it out. BTW, if they are so minor, does that mean we should be silent as the US and other countries were when they didn't believe the reports of Jews being massacred?

Lepus Rex, thanks, again, for your further elucidation. next time I will try to be more *creative* in my thread naming.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 01:06 PM

To a point, I agree with Lepus Rex regarding the policy of sanctions. If it is indeed effective, the effects all seem to be negative. It cuts off any meaningful communication and it tends to cement an adversarial relationship. There are better ways to go about this, and it starts with keeping lines of communication open.

However:--

I guess there are degrees of "inconvenience." I think I've got it now . . .

What is happening to women in Afghanistan could be classed as a minor inconvenience.

What happened to Jews under the Nazi regime was a major inconvenience.

Glad we got that cleared up. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

I've always looked forward to threads labeled "Thought for the Day" as an opportunity to rest my mind on something lovely, something sweet, something higher than the usual run of human un-thought that is available nearly everywhere else. Threads like that have often strengthened me in my effort to use all the love and skill I can, to do something that "needs done," as we say here in these parts.

~S~

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:31 PM

Remember when we were all hot under the collar because the Soviet Union had no right being in Afghanistan? If only they had kept it.

ducking for cover,
Alex

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:20 PM

McGrath mentioned about the destruction of statues and other religious items in the 16th and 17th centuries. In Suffolk for example there was the home grown bigot William Dowsing who in Suffolk alone "purged" over 150 churches of stained glass, brasses paintings and other items. The book by Roy Strong - "Lost Treasures of Britain" is a poignant description of what was destroyed for ever. No doubt some time in the future some more tolerant scholar than at present exists will be writing a similar work dealing with Afghanistan. The destruction doesn't really serve any purpose other than a mindless reaction like some spoiled kid who decides to take his ball away so that other kids can't have it.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:16 PM

Well, I was thinking... The Kabul Museum was looted repeatedly in the 90s. Some of the finest pieces were shipped off for sale. Maybe that was a good thing, considering the current situation.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM

Boy, and we thought these guys were creeps and idiots BEFORE. Just another indication of what can happen when religion and government are not separated, and religious fundamentalists gain power. Ever read "The Handmaid's Tale"? Let us pray SOMETHING can be done to preserve the many cultural artefacts that exist in Afghanistan and which are under danger of destruction by these extremists -- the giant Buddhas and other "public" art, as well as the things in museums, churches, or whatever.

Lord, what fools these mortals be!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:07 PM

Kat, I wasn't trying to trivialise their situation, but to draw attention to what I believe to be a more urgent matter.

I dunno... Maybe I just started off a little negative because of the thread title: "Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha." Had it been named "Thought for the day Mar 3-Rubble gained," things might have been much different. ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM

LR, thanks very much for the links. I will take a look at them.

The last I'd read they had already destroyed the statues, but that was based solely on Taliban reports, no eyewitnessing, so I am delighted to hear that they may still be intact. (I wonder if LaFrance is a relative of my SO...same last name.:-)

Sorry, LR, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do not consider the sanctions against women as just inconveniences. It is not inconvenient to be unable to have any kind of medical treatment based on examination of your own body rather than that of your male relative who doesn't even have the same parts. It is not a minor inconvenience to be excluded from any outlets for education. With the next generation of Afghan women they will have totally wiped out entire generations of knowledge, industry, etc. It is not an inconveniece for a whole gender to be oppressed. I also do not think it would be that easy for many of them to "get a gun and join the opposition." Please do not trivialise what these women go through.

Granted sanctions may not be helping, but as long as the women ask for our voices and our assistance, as individuals, I cannot be silent.

kat...hey, you are doing good on those Clear Entries the past few!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:42 AM

Kat, I'd still call most of those things inconveniences. And all of the ones that can result in violence are completely avoidable. Completely unfair, but avoidable. If she doesn't break those laws, she won't get in trouble. If she doesn't like it, get a gun and join the opposition. The whining of the West can't change a thing for her.

Some links... First, a disclaimer: Some of these sites may be full of shit. Use your own judgement. ;)

Hazara.net Info about the persecution of the Hazara people. Links to other Hazara sites.

. Hazaragi Magazine. Another Hazara site. With music. :)

Hazara Online, yet another Hazara site.

Amnesty International's Afghanistan documents (should work)

UNHCR's Afghanistan page.

Short article on the Taleban's pro-Pashtun policies...

That's all for now...

Also, some news about the statues from UNESCO :

"ALL DOORS ARE NOT CLOSED" ACCORDING TO UNESCO SPECIAL ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN

Paris, March 5 (No.2001-33) - Pierre Lafrance, UNESCO's special envoy to Afghanistan, has left Kandahar, the main residence of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, for Islamabad (Pakistan), but will return to Afghanistan after the Id al-Adha holiday. After talks with, among others, the Taliban Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mullah Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil, Mr Lafrance indicated that there was still hope that the Buddha statues at Bamiyan might be saved.

"All doors are not closed. Contacts are continuing and new consultations are taking place among theologians in Afghanistan," Mr Lafrance declared, confirming, however, that the Taliban have destroyed small statues in the museums of the towns of Ghazni, Jalalabad and Herat. UNESCO's special envoy will be returning to Kandahar on Wednesday or Thursday and will pursue his efforts from Islamabad until then.

UNESCO Director-General Koichiro Matsuura, meanwhile, is continuing his efforts to mobilize all communities, particularly the political and religious communities, which might be able to influence the Taliban. Already on Friday, the Group of Arab UNESCO Member States issued a communiqu‚ calling for "an international mobilization with concrete actions, to end this unprecedented undertaking which affects invaluable universal heritage treasures."

Other voices have been raised against the Taliban's decision to destroy pre-Islamic statues. Two important Islamic religious authorities have, moreover, already expressed points of view contrary to that of the Afghan Taliban. The religious leader of Doha (Qatar), Sheikh Yusuf Kardawi declared: "The statues made by the ancients before Islam are part of a historic heritage. When the Muslims entered Afghanistan, in the first century of the Hegira [the Moslem era], the statues were already there and they did not destroy them. I advise our brethren of the Taliban movement to reconsider their decision in view of its danger and negative impact."

Sabri Abdel-Raouf, the Head of the Department of Islamic Studies at the University of Al-Azhar (Cairo, Egypt) said: "Statues made to be worshiped can be destroyed as being opposed to Islam, but statues which are not worshiped are not forbidden."

UNESCO has announced the creation of a special bank account for the cultural heritage of Afghanistan (No. 406 AFG 30). It will be used for emergency funding of any measure that may allow for the safeguarding of Afghanistan's pre-Islamic heritage and, in the long term, for the preservation of the country's heritage, both pre-Islamic and Islamic. UNESCO has also launched an international petition for the Afghan heritage.

---Lepus Rex (please, please don't hit that "Clear Entries" button by mistake...)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 11:20 AM

Matt - I suspect that the images had more to do with "spiritual warfare" (meaning the war that occurs inside a person's own breast when trying to reach a decision or make a change in some way). I may be wrong, but I suspect those pictures were allegorical.

My impression is that all the great religious teachings are meant to be acted out more within a human being than on the outer field of battle, so to speak, but people are literal-minded, so they usually focus it outward instead.

Lepus - You are probably correct that actions taken to isolate that country have had only tragic results. That is usually the case with such actions.

- LH

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM

Peter, I'm not sure from what book our teacher got the slides...

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:57 AM

Lepus Rex, please include a link to more info, or add more info on non-Pashtun Afghans. I am interested in learning more. I still think the situation for any woman in Afghanistan, and their male supporters is much, much worse than you are making it out to be. Consider, please:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered all People to choose Islamic names for them if their names are not Islamic .

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:23 AM

Before I start, I just want to say this: I HATE THE "CLEAR ENTRIES" BUTTON. IT MUST BE DESTROYED.

Ok... I'm not typing all that over again. Here's my Reader's Digest Condensed Entry. (DIE, "CLEAR ENTRIES" BUTTON, DIE.)

Kat, I was being both sarcastic and serious. I agree with you that the lives of women in Taleban-controlled Afghanistan are difficult and unfair, but they are mere inconveniences in comparison with the conditions experienced by non-Pashtun Afghans of both sexes. Yeah, they can't go out without a male relative, and they can't wear nice shoes or practice prostitution. But I can't see why that is the issue that you, and most Americans, focus on, when hundreds of thousands have been killed or displaced for the sin of not being Sunni Pashtun hillbillies. They aren't uncovering mass graves filled with the bodies of Pashtun women, are they?

And actually, the Taleban have improved things considerably for women since they took power, a fact that even the RAWA admits. It could be, and was, much, much worse than it is now.

The only way to change things in Afghanistan is to remove the sanctions (current Islamic scapegoat Osama bin Laden isn't worth it) and help rebuild the country. Or we can continue with the sanctions, and let the people suffer. But that's not good for women. ;)

---Lepus Rex, flipping off the "Clear Entries" button as he exits.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Margaret V
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:05 AM

I just read the sad news about the stampede which left 35 people dead during the Islamic "stoning of Satan" ritual. Can anyone help me understand the role of the pillars in this ritual? Aren't they being used emblematically, and therefore a sort of icon? I realize the pillar is not a depiction per se of Satan, rather it is an abstraction, but doesn't the human mind in most cases move very quickly from abstraction to imposed image? How would these pillars fit into the scheme of injunctions against images? Thanks. Margaret

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 09:05 AM

I confess that I have never seen images like that -- they are usually of the warchariots of Vishnu or Krishna (one problem is that when the Hindus took over Buddhist images they began to treat the Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu) -- but if they do exist from the earliest period I would assume that they are likely to be the Buddha attacking underworld demons. I wouldn't mind a reference if you can find one -- I always like disconcerting my Buddhist colleagues who are always going on about how pure and gentle we have always been. Hah.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM

In an Indian Art History class, I've seen countless images of the Bhudda in a war chariot, surrounded by heavy cavalry, and with a servant holding a parasol over his head. Well, actually, I didn't SEE the Bhudda, since at that particular time period, he was not shown in an earthly form, so he is invisible. So was he going to war, or just on a crusade to bring enlightenment? Either way, if he tried it today, looks like he'd get dissed.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 08:34 AM

For the historical record, Buddhists have been involved in a variety of national wars, including the Sinhalese (Ceylon, Sri Lanka)nationalist cause -- due to some misunderstood early texts. They are currently involved in the civil war in Sri Lanka, where some of them have not exactly covered themselves in glory. The role of Buddhists in the Japanese conflicts of the 2oth century is still understudied. But generally their hands are pretty clean: more victims than persecutors. The Taliban are following alas in the footsteps of the Islamic purges of Buddhism in India in the Middle Ages when hundreds of thousands of Buddhists were killed, the universities destroyed, and the teachers had to flee into Tibet. The current situation brings back bad memories of that history too.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 06:45 AM

A barbarian act it is. Sad to say it is by far not the frist such act in history and I fear not the last as well. The word for it comes from Christian history: iconoclasm.
When the Christian missionaries came to what now is Germany, they were proud to cut down the holy oaks of the Saxons and to destroy their places of worship.

And let's not forget Book of Numbers, Chapter 33, verses 50-53:
And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it..

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 05:09 AM

I also wholeheartedly disagree with the destruction of these historic items. It makes it all the worse when you realise that Bhuddism, as far as I know, is the only major religion in the world never to have a war fought or persecution generated in its name.

Couple of other points I would like to make.

To whoever said it is 2001 - It aint necessarily so! That is the Christian timeline. In terms of Islam we are still in the 14th century (Islam year 0 was Christian year 622AD I think). The Christian (Catholic) inquisitions started in the 13th century and were only officialy ended in the 19th! The Spanish inquisition that we all talk of started in 1478. The Taliban, and all Muslims, are not up to there yet so things could get worse yet if they mirror Christian history.

Another very interesting item came up when I was searching for this information -

In his final sermon Muhammad summarised the heart of Islam:

Belief in One God without images or symbols;
Equality of all the Believers without distinction of race or class, the superiority of individuals being based solely on piety;
Sanctity of life, property and honour;
Abolition of interest, and of vendettas and private justice;
Better treatment of women;
Obligatory inheritance and distribution of the property of deceased persons among near relatives of both sexes, and removal of the possibility of the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few."

I find all the points excelent, relevant today and useable in many walks of life. 1 and 3 are particularly relevant to this discussion though and wonder how the two are reconciled in Afganistan. Perhaps their Mullahs got bored after point 1...?

Again, perhaps all these teachings should be displayed prominently in Churches, Synaqogues and Temples of all faiths but points 3 and 5 should be carved in letters 10 feet tall on the walls of all Mosques in Kabul!

Good will to people of all faiths and, as Dave Allen used to say, may your God go with you.

Dave the Gnome