Musician Rudeness

Subject: Lyr Add: YOUR MIND IS ON VACATION (Mose Allison)
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:37 PM

Somehow, all of this just brought to mind an old tune from jazz/blues performer, Mose Allison:

You're sittin' there yakkin' right in my face,
I guess I'm gonna have to put you in your place.
You know if silence was golden,
You couldn't raise a dime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You're quotin' figures and droppin' names,
You're tellin' stories about the dames.
You're over-laughin' when things ain't funny,
You tryin' to sound like big money.
If talk was criminal, you'd lead a life o' crime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You know that life is short; talk is cheap,
Don't be making promises that you can't keep.
If you don't like this song I'm singing, just grin and bear it.
All I can say is if the shoe fits wear it.
And if you must keep talkin', please try to make it rhyme,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime."

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:08 PM

Grab, you say "(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)" I find that the same irony id applicable to you. On my second day here in this forum, the only rudeness I've seen is yours and no one elses. To the rest of the posters, sorry for the thread drift

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I think sometmes, in noisy pubs, people can be listening "out of the corner of their ears".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:12 AM

A folk club I used to go to was set in one small bar of a pub that had at least three bars. It was a weekly open event and we did have regular 'audience'. One week there was a group of about 4/5 people who were obviously not interested in the music at all, just sat in the middle of the room chatting away very loudly, in spite of the fact that there were other bars where they could sit. I finally asked them, if they were not listening to the music, to go to one of the other bars as they were spoiling the enjoyment of those of us who wanted to hear the performers. They got huffy but did leave.

We also had a few performers who wanted quiet while they were doing their bit (usually the same songs week after week after week.....) but would sit and chat, relatively quietly, while others were performing. there were also the partners of performers who would take the evening as an opportunity to catch up with gossip with each other, regardless of what was going on in the circle. I ended up dropping that particular club after a while as it really did get on my nerves to see such crass behaviour.

I go to listen to the performers and think that to talk whilst someone else is performing is the height of bad manners - I've had accusations of being unfriendly because I won't join in conversations when someone is singing. My attitude is, if you want a drink and a chat go do it somewhere where you don't disturb those of us that want to listen.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:01 AM

And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

Or, as I used to think on singers nights in Llandudno for example, that everyone taking a turn would be heard.

---
I'm mostly in sessions in main bars of pubs these days. Background noise goes with that and isn't usually (I have for example struggled to here Irish pipes 3ft from me) a problem and theres not usually anything you can do if it does get silly, apart from hope next week is quieter.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:52 AM

Interesting point Grab.
I often play at the George Session nr London Bridge it is in a bar used by the general public and it can be very noisy and as the music increases in volume so does the talking.I can accept that and expect that and it does in no way effect my evening and if the audience joins in or appreciates the music even over their talking it is a bonus.Perhaps from Folk Clubs I see it differently I go there expecting to perform in front of an audience,who are completely focussed on all the acts and react accordingly to the performance.Perhaps I got it wrong.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:47 AM

At Cambridge last year I was sat in front of a particularly loud drunken group (especially the women) who had not listened to a single act. I finally said to them that nobody minded talking, but could they keep the screaming and shouting down. I was told that if I wanted to listen to the music I should go down to the front. I stood up, walked into the middle of their circle and said in a loud voice "I don't want to go to the front, I want you to shut the f**k up, is that a problem?" Like Jon, this was met with a round of applause and the group seemed to take the hint. Sometimes you just have to take the subtle approach.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:31 AM

Dear Moley, remember our immortal Winston: "But in the morning, I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)

One thing that hasn't really been touched on is the question of why the non-players are there in the first place. If it's a semi-formal singaround or session, or a formal folk club performance, then anyone there should know the score - namely STFU or at least keep the noise down if you do need to talk. And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

But if you're in a busy pub and other people in the pub have come there to have a chat and a pint with their mates, it's a bit of a different situation. The funny thing is that most people *are* still listening, so if you start up something unusual then you might suddenly find the room goes quiet as everyone stops to listen. The mistake then is to think you've got them and they're all yours - actually the noise level is likely to increase afterwards, as everyone starts talking at once! :-/

The big mistake of course is pushing your voice to try and respond. If people are listening, they're listening. If they're not particularly interested, then "SHE! LET! GO! MY! HAND! AND! SHE! MOVED! THROUGH! THE! FAIR!" isn't exactly going to change their mind. Even so though, learning that there's a time and place for delicate finger-picked arrangements and there's a time for balls-out strumming is a good lesson. Amplification in this kind of setting just lets the former be audible - it doesn't mean it's going to increase the number of people interested in what you're doing.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it sing (or listen to) folk music...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:23 AM

100.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mandotim
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:55 AM

I've played a lot of fairly noisy pub gigs. One strategy I've used to discourage talking over the music when amplified is to gradually play softer and softer, until the voices of the talkers really stand out above the music; there is usually a moment of realisation, and a sort of sheepish silence results. A polite 'thank you' over the mike, and on we go.
Tim

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:54 AM

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

I don't think so, at least not at lower levels. Going back to Llandudno in the 80s, in the summer a large part of the audience were holiday makers so I saw quite different groups of people each week. Some weeks were quieter than others and once in a while you would get a noisy table - it was just the way it went.

---
I wound up with I think the worst group we had on one of the odd weeks I was doing the MC. This group of 4 were sat closet to the stage and making life difficult/unpleasant for everyone. I tried going over and talking to them but it didn't make a difference for long.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't have done it but I then addressed them over the PA, noting that I'd already spoken to them politely, they were ruining the night for others and that if they wanted to chat there was the main bar. I then told them they had a choice, either enjoy the music quietly or chat in the other room but if they continued to be noisy in the club, I would fetch the landlord who would remove them from the room (and he would have supported this), but I didn't want to andf there was no need for this.

To my amazement, when I finished my "speech", there was loud applause from everyone else in the room. The group got up and stormed out (well one shouted some abuse at me) and in the end, that particular night turned out to be a really good one.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:35 AM

Amplification certainly facilitates talking (up to a point*) - and lack of amplification discourages it, at least when most of the audience expects to be able to hear the acts. This is one of the reasons I dislike amplification - actually, no, it's the reason I dislike amplification.

*I SAID, UP TO A... OH NEVER MIND! NEVER MIND! I SAID, NEVER MI...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:30 AM

So this raises an interesting question.
Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

I think the answer is, yes, it does - but not amplification of the particular performer at the moment, but a whole generation - well, two generations by now - growing up listening to amplified music. Often really loud amplified music. They take it as a given that the music will be so loud that you can talk loudly while it's going on, and people around you can still hear it.

Plus, of course, many young people now are even deafer than us old f*rts, from listening to loud amplified stuff for so long.

Peter

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:02 AM

Admittedly it does tend to increase the volume of those who are talking but that doesn't mean amplification causes talking does it

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:43 AM

Alan Day

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?

That's certainly the impression I get. The more you turn up the amplification, the louder people will talk.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:26 AM

So this raises an interesting question.
Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:08 PM

I met with a number of very old friends last week in a local pub that features live music. We gathered about an hour and a half before the performer was scheduled to begin, and we were sitting around a table very near the stage because, well, that was the only table in the place large enough for all of us.

The evening's entertainment was a solo act, acoustic guitar and vocals. (Well, plugged-in ~ and fairly loud ~ acoustic.)

Most of us quieted down as soon as the fellow began to play, but one individual ~ the biggest, strongest, loudest, and perhaps drunkest among us ~ was completely oblivious to the singer and totally involved in our conversation (well, in his participation is said conversation). We all gave him the "hairy eyeball" and tried to use every non-verbal (silent) means to advise him to pipe down, because we didn't want to add more noise, more loud talk, to his.

Our strategy eventually worked and our old buddy got the message that he really ought to lower his voice, if not shut up altogether. But it took a few minutes, during which I was a little embarrassed and felt kind of impotent at my inability to fix the situation more quickly.

Lest anyone misunderstand, this was not a concert hall, nor even the kind of bar where silent attention to the entertainment is generally practiced and expected. It's a place where people normally converse, laugh, maybe sing along, and generally behave in a moderately rowdy manner, whther or not the live music is underway. The sound system is deliberately set up LOUD to accommodate the usual hubbub.

But we were right square in front of the stage, and our friend was very very loud ~ made the rest of us uncomfortable. Thankfully, the worst of it didn't last very long: One of our party had the presense of mind to start bantering with the performer as soon as the first song was done, making requests, etc., and engaging him in some back-and-forth dialog, and that was the end of the competing and offending offstage conversation.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: trevek
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:02 PM

I was in Galway a few years back and later returned to find a few young British new-age hippies. They could play a decent tune but refused to learn the names ("It's not considered cool").

I asked if the local musicians let them join the sessions, "We don't always bother asking, we just set in there and start playing"

Bet that went down well.

It was in stark contrast to when I was doing a wee gig in Wexford and was approached by an elderly chap who asked if he and his friend might join my "session". As a young greenback I of course agreed. He pulled out a set of pipes and started playing. Someone with him told me he was one of the founders of a specific Irish music association (I forget which). What showed that this was such a class gentleman was not only his playing but his politeness and formality when asking to join, and then participating in a session run by a British... bodhran player.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:29 PM

People who talk while a musician is performing drives me right up the wall, unfortunately shhhing them adds further to the noise, so my sister (a musician herself) points to one of the talkers and very politely asks if the person is a musician, generally the answer is no, she then asks if they work for a living, the answer is generally yes. My sister replies, "well I'm a musician, I'm working, so will you please let me do my job" The approach is quite effective. A slight thread drift here, rudeness on forums is something else that drives me crazy.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:31 PM

Here's the way that I have handled ill mannered 'background noise'.

I announce, "Here's a song that my Dad used to sing to us kids when we were very small"

(this song is sung very quietly except for the words quiet and riot which are shouted)

We must be ever so, ever so QUIET!
shhh! shhh! shhh!
don't make a noise it will lead to a RIOT!
shhh! shhh! shhh!
can't you hear the tick of the clock
dickory, dickory, dickory, dock
We must be ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, ever so, QUIET!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:12 PM

Peace, it's OK to forget a letter and have a sin around; as long as it's not a French one!!!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:45 PM

ahh...another hiding behind an alias...to be ignored I think...oh and pay attention to your own advice please.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:41 PM

You really need to learn when to say nothing Moly. You post in too many threads, making comments that are often out of place.
You come over as a spoilt and self opinionated child.
Sam may have warned you about people giving you a hard time, and I can only assume that's because he knows how you upset people, intentionally or otherwise.
Perhaps he'd have been better warning you to keep quiet unless you have something of interest to say.
Ideally a post should add to a thread, and possibly help move it on, and not sidetrack it, or kill it dead.
Please do yourself a favour, and think twice before you post next time.
This is friendly advice, and not a personal attack BTW.
BNV

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:09 PM

"That must save you a fortune - some of us have to drink gallons before we start acting that way. *LOL"

I know, I've had to assist in picking someone like you off the floor, really it too much trouble at times, but why waste the tax payers money having you hauled off by the police...and is it any wonder there's a generation gap..

"The problem is, there are no serious consequences these days for rudeness."

whatever happened to a good thick ear? Or is that now considered child abuse?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: s&r
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:03 PM

oops - wrong thread.....
Stu

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: the man himself
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I had some experience of "the great Bob Davenport" when I ran a club way back. My booked guest was ill, and I was offered BD by the agent - I didn't want him, but at three hours notice I was stuck. So he came, sat in the bar until he was on, spoke to no-one, didn't respond with more than a grunt when I spoke to him. The performance was stereotypical "Geordie-away-from-home".
I don't bad-mouth people much, but in this case....
Or as the expression goes, I wouldn't........if he was on fire.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: s&r
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I have travelled the world around
and found
a plethora of song
beyond their ken
These baser men

And they would me berate
O how they prate
They are so wrong
They do not see
They should agree

The license(?) I have got
Should tell them what
They need to know
Well travelled and well read
It's in my head

My motives are so pure
Of that I'm sure
Of that although
My subtle mind
leaves most behind

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I have an old monologue Jim called The Taxi Drivers Story and E talks exacly like wot you do.
Nice one Sal, perhaps we should get a few of those printed.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:20 PM

I don't touch alcohol

That must save you a fortune - some of us have to drink gallons before we start acting that way. *LOL*

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:18 PM

I sang in a club in an Oxford pub once a few years ago. Behind me on the wall was a very large notice saying

"WHEN THE SINGER'S ON, SHUT THE F**K UP!"

I think that does it for me!

Sal

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:56 AM

`ere Sid, I `ad that farting fiddler in my cab once. We`d only gorn a quarter of a mile and I was `bliged to tell `im, "Oi, you can cut that out too, it`s very rude! What about my uvver fares?"
`e said, " Can`t you open the windows for `em?"
I said, "Windows!! I`d `ave to cut off the bleedin` roof!"

What am I like??

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:24 AM

20 feet! At some festivals he would have found another two rows of tents in there the next morning.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:06 AM

Wow! The bad behaviour of one guitarist and one bodhran player is enough to condemn a whole generation

You want a list of instances that make the statement believable?
How long have you got?

What about the Festivalgoer who parks his huge caravan 20 feet from his car, and flings doors open, sound system full belt while he sits under his distant gazebo cooking on his barbie? In the quiet area.
And he is probably not a musician. But given the festival it was seen at - about in keeping with the kind of clientele the festival wish to attract. Come the downturn they will see who the faithfull are and it won't be the me generation. Or me.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:56 AM

Was it ever thus.

etiquette has changed. In society! The only positve thing is that it is demonstating "Folk" (as in what they all do) in the modern idiom.

I have to say if you went to somewhere like the Somers (Fri, Albion, Worcester) they would not just take a dim view of it, words would be said. It is a singers (& musicians) club and they demand respect, and get it.

In general I would think they are mostly of the same respectful type. I would vote with my feet and maybe report such in my column of "Folk West". PM if you think it appropriate geographically.

But then this is no different in concept to the volume at larger festivals leaking into the (distant) other venues. This is just more personal and insidious. If the organisers don't mind - don't go.

Of course it could be gamesmanship (aka jealousy).

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:39 AM

Cap'n,
It's a moot point whether he's even a singer as far as I'm concerned.
I was taking the term 'musician' in its widest definition - please do not be pedantic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:20 AM

Jim Carroll,is Bob Davenport a musician?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Zen
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:18 AM

It just reflects society in general... most are fine, a few are complete ignorami and it has no relationship with ability. After 40 years playing in sessions you can usually sense who falls into which category without a note being played or a word being said. Fortunately, my experiences have generally been positive and the few bad ones haven't put me off.

Zen

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:28 PM

While many of us seem to be discovering this lapse of manners only in the most recent generations, it is well to consider just how long more seasoned folks have complained about their younger counterparts. No less a light than Socrates once complained that "The younger generation is going to the dogs." Nothing is really new in the world, only rediscovered, or improved upon - including bad manners.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:41 PM

"I blame Margaret Thatcher."

and we blame Stephen Harper (current [Conservative] prime minister) here in Canada *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:36 PM

I blame Margaret Thatcher.

But then again I blame her for everything.

:D

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:54 PM

I find guest performers,who sit outside the clubroom,and only come in for their sets ,rude.
a couple of years ago I was booked in a club in Clonakilty,with two fiddlers.In walked a Dutchman with a dozen harmonicas,he proceeded to join in every tune when he didnt know the tune or key,the harmonica sounding rather like a concertina,from my point of view was very distracting,when I asked him to stop as it was off putting,He got very agitated and started shouting and swearing.
   I looked at him,and he ran away.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:49 PM

A similar thing happened to me Jim in Sterling Scotland,I played a few tunes on my concertina that went well and then decided to do a very cleverly written monologue called The Old Castle written early 1900.
Half way through a drunk shouted out "Stop the talking and play yer F... Sqeezbox" I was followed by a Scot who told a monologue I could not understand a word of, but as everyone was laughing so I guessed it was funnier than my one. Not one of my best evenings.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:02 PM

The worst piece of rudeness I ever saw shown towards a fellow performer was thrust on us by the great Bob Davenport at The Musical Traditions Club in London about ten years ago.
The guests were two Irish singers; Roisín White from Armagh and Therese Mullan, a Sean Nos singer from The Aran Islands.
Therese thoughtfully took the trouble to give a short explanation of her Irish language songs - our hero pointedly spoke loudly over her introductions.
We heard him say "I thought we'd got rid of this pretentious shite back in the sixties".
When we asked him to shut up he replied loudly, so the whole room could hear, "I came here to listen to singing, not f****** talking".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:20 PM

The Moron With The Bodhran

Incidentally, it's pronounced "Mo-RAHWHHN".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:58 PM

"Bad hangover, Charlotte...?"

Sorry I'm one of those rather odd people in the "folk" world...I don't touch alcohol, and the stereotype of the drinking folkie has always amused me s'matter Grab some splash mud on your brand new Range Rover *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:53 PM

IMO, kids are no more or less rude that they were say fifty years ago. It's a shame really that the good guys don't make the news more often. As to manners in clubs, I still don't understand why folks don't tell the rude one(s) (quietly for the first attempt than less quietly for the second and last) to STFU!

Of course, I'm a colonial and I ain't too long outta the trees.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:53 PM

From the Wikipedia entry fo Minstrel -

In England before the Norman Conquest, the professional poet was known as a scôp ("shaper" or "maker"), who composed his own poems, and sang them to the accompaniment of a rude harp.

I'm not sure if the rudeness of a harp lies in the way it is played or if it is covered in suggestive carvings.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:37 PM

If it had been a melodeon player farting, you wouldn't have noticed, would you?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:36 PM

Wasn't it Four Men and A Dog who had a song called The Moron With The Bodhran about exactly what Eliza mentioned? BTW, Eliza, awaiting the new album, got a taste of it on myspace-excellent stuff!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:33 PM

In my experience, younger people are delightful and polite; it's the grannies and granddads you have to watch out for. They are so terrified by the Daily Mail and the television that even if you are stepping out of their way or holding a door open, they will not acknowledge you or say thank you!
I've seen some very rude bodhran playing in sessions. Some of them don't even ask if it's a non-bodhran room!
x ec