Where can bad singers go?

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: breezy
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:46 AM

Difficult to sell a poor product

Why do I rarely go to folk clubs these days

I can sing and play and I am booked regularly so therefore I must be doing something O K

I even sell the occasional CD

People sometimes applaud but in a pub setting you have to earn it.

I also am nervous before a gig

If I dont know it I dont do it, so the first time out for a song is always the 'bottle' job

Unfortunately folk clubs have become associated with poor singers through the advance of song sessions that are free access to Joe Public,so that in turn could contribute to the decline in the number of succesful clubs

I used to record myself in the early days I also used to take part in singing competitions, so I was left in no doubt about my limited abilities.
I would only sing in a 'safe' setting and practised a lot in private.

Bob Dylan was once quoted as saying something like. 'If your gonna sing, then sing'

Pete Seeger
'Sing out,sing loud sing often.'

So sing outdoors and watch for peoples reactions

But to all aspiring singers. Learn the song thoroughly first please, look the audience in the eyes and listen to the end response.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM

Not really this thread but the text I'm commenting on is here a few posting above.

David de - we changed from bar singarounds to funtion room singarounds about 18 months ago and adopted much of the etiquet you list. The problem was the learning curve for the odd one or two who thought they could carry on as if still in a Public Bar.


I summed up the new etiquet as LOFO - Listen or F*** Off!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:09 AM

I think when you've got to the point where people are all laughing at you, or being horrible...and yet the performer persists.

Then its indicative of deeper problems.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

yes, Jim,it was.
of course if singers listened to themselves it might help,its called critical self analysis.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

Formally organised workshops are great for encouraging people into learning - but you do have to apply standards.... isn't this where we came in???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:46 AM

In my experience of workshops there are some people who take full advantage of the suggestions/help offered (as well as making constructive suggestions of their own about other people's singing - a good workshop is a mutually supportive exercise).

On the other hand there are singers who never seem to improve, often because they are not really listening to the suggestions/help offered. They never seem to do any work outside of the workshop environment and present the same problems at session after session, often 'hogging' sessions in the process. It's hard to see why they come to the sessions in the first place - although I suspect that they're really looking for either uncritical praise or 'magic', work-free solutions to their problems.

The first type of workshop participant tend to develop into interesting performers (and occasionally brilliant ones) who are worth listening to. The second type invariably don't ...

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:24 AM

Stringsinger Yes, what is "bad"? Arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh! How many times do I have to explain. Please read my earlier comments. Bob Dylan is not bad. Woody Guthrie is not bad. Louis Armstrong is not bad.

Romany Man - yes, well. Swinton does not have many 'rules' but these are they, as can be seen on the web site -

Don't enter or leave the club while anyone is performing.

Quiet during all performances.

Respect other peoples point of view and shake their hand not your fist.

Respect all musical instruments and always ask the owners permission before using one. Don't be offended if they say no - We keep a club guitar for performers who haven't brought one.

Don't try and bribe the organizers for that extra song. We are of course open to bribery but we come very expensive.

If you are offended by the first two then sorry, but it is a small room with bad accoustics and most people would like to hear the artist performing. Surely you can wait a few minutes to top up your glass or empty your bladder can't you?

Peg - Nice to see you - Where have you been:-)

Skipy - You would be surprised at who finds it hard or difficult to sing. The bad performers I know have no concept of 'nerves' or, more accurately, the adrenaline surge, at all. Whereas seasoned professionals will always have that worry that they will get it wrong. I know one artist of over 30 years standing who is still occasionaly physicaly sick before a performance. Nice to know that you are 'scared shitless'; it means you care about what you are doing and you will do it well. We are NOT talking about you or anyone else who has stage jitters but those who are realy bad - See my earlier comments.

Nice to see that everyone is possitive and, even is in disagreement, is keeping it civil. Keep it up! :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:54 AM

"....someone who is obviously tone deaf'
Can honestly say that in all the time I have been involved I have never met anybody who is genuinely tone deaf - though I have often heard it given as an excuse to not make the effort.
For me, the measure of a good club is one that is capable of taking inexperienced singers and helping to develop them into good ones.
The idea that there are singers who are good enough to sing on residents nights, but not on guest nights is, as far as I'm concerned, totally hypocritical, insulting to the regulars and it certainly can't do the confidence of the less experienced singer any good.
The best workshops I have been involved with are not those guided from above by a 'teacher', but those in which the whole group takes part in the process - that way, everybody develops at each session.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Beer
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:10 PM

I got on this thread way to late and will admit that I haven't read every post. Maybe tomorrow.
However, I will respond to David el Gnomo this way.

If you are a bad singer stay off the stage. Anyone who has payed bucks to enter a club or otherwise deserve to get their money's worth.
If it is an open mike and no one has payed to get in, than no problem, sing off key or whatever.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: skipy
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:21 PM

O/K I have stayed out of here long enough! I have read on this thread some of the most sanctumonius bullshit that ever graced a page!
Some of us are scared shitless when it comes to singing! That does not mean that we can't sing, but it often means that those who find it easy to sing have kicked the shit out of us who find it hard to sing! Where the fuck where you when we needed your help or just a good comment or two? I'll tell you, most of you had your heads up your arses, so next time someone "not quite as good as you or your mates" makes a little mistake or needs the words, why not give them a little support!
& just for the record there is someone on this thread (no names, no pack drill) who makes everyone in the room cringe when it is his/her turn, but still we listen & still we clap!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:30 PM

How about Yorkshire?

a bracing climate and plenty of room for them to run around in....trenchant constructive criticism always at hand.....

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:54 PM

Opps... Sorry, Dave... American Idol ain' the only place for bad singers... There are millions of acres of desserted land in western and northwestern US and that's God's plan... These folks just need to move there and sing their little pea-pickin' hearts out...

B~

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:51 PM

Well, yeah, Kendall... The first couple months of Idol are purdy much like the "Gong Show" resurrected but then the show turns into a much different show and most of the folks can flat out sing... I like both halves because it is like two shows...

Okay, truth be known, I like the first half better but, then again, I loved the "Gong Show"... Had a ggod friend who was on it 3 times... Yeah, he sucked but he workied very hard on suckin'... So don't feel sorry for some of them folks 'cause they ain't tryin' to sing... They are ***tryin'*** to suck...

I know it don't make no sense but, hey, we are both married men so we know all about stuff that don't make no sense... Right???

B;~)

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:17 PM

I can't watch American Idol. Too painful.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:28 PM

I have heard some "bad" singers in my day who eventually got pretty good, or at least passable, with time. Thing is, it may not take the same amount of time for some as for others. How long are we willing to wait?

Everyone deserves a place to sing. And if a club or cirlce is open to the public, ya can;t throw people out for being lousy.

As for clubs hiring "bad" singers; that is their prerogative. One can leave, go drink in the next room, or sit quietly and wait for a better singer to come on.

It might be worth encouraging "bad" singers with advice or suggestions of material. Let them know you think that )insert title here) would be a good song for them. Maybe it's in an easier melodic range than what they normally sing. Maybe it's not as rhythmically or lyrically challenging as what they've tried in the past. (This can backfire, of course--especially if the singer has been led to think they really are worth being paid for what they do, or are hired/booked repeatedly).

I am not a fan of mediocrity. But no one should be denied the right of making music with others.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

I have today concluded that the music is not dying,

See my recent post here

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: G-Force
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM

I think the most important thing, if you're running a singers' night, is not to make the mistake of putting all the crap on at the beginning. The evening will never recover.

You can usually hide one duff performer on a guest night in the second half, last spot before the guest comes back on. (People are looking for their raffle ticket, going for a last drink/pee, etc.).

I think audiences are prepared to take the wheat with the chaff to some extent, on the basis that the chaff will gradually get better (it's the ones that don't who are the problem).

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

You're right about Louis Armstrong, Frank.

I was talking to a neighbor one time. He said he wanted to be a singer but he didn't have a good enough voice. So I said "What about Louis Armstrong?".

He went straight out and started practicing.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: romany man
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:46 PM

There are bad singers and bad singer, those that are still learning their craft, have as much right to try and hone their skills at the local club, where people should be trying to help them improve, get over their nerves what ever, and then there are the BAD singers, yes they have as much right as anyone but people should be constructive in the comments and yes be honest, try and steer them into trying to improve, or just tell them you are bad mate sorry but thats life. I wont go to clubs any more, mainly due to the inbuilt policies of nearly every club i have been to, however i have not been to any club for many years and will stand corrected if there is a club out there that dont have these stupid rules and regulations, but judgeing by the ammount of threads on mudcat bemoaning the club scene, boy im glad i dont go. id sooner pay to go to a venue thats non club, privately run, where i can go to the bar, loo, whatever mid song whatever without the folk police getting on my case, every one has to learn, ive been struggling with the melodeon for ages, but would not inflict my screeching , wrong noting, on anyone other than me. once ive got the hang of it , then i will be quite happy to play where others can hear,

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:31 PM

Finding the right venue for what you do is right on the money.

I once did a gig that consisted of nothing but blue collar workers at the nuclear plant in NH. They had no clue what I was doing there. (Neither did I)

I also did a performance for the mentally handicapped. Same result. I'm sure neither group was impressed with me.

As I'm fond of saying, "Everything is relative. To a germ, good health is a type of disease".

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Stonebridge
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

The shower or the bath.

It's not so much whether or not you are "bad", but more a case of whether or not anyone wants to listen to you.
If you are so bad that nobody does, then it's the bath or shower. If people, however few, want to listen, then go there and sing for them.
Really, it's not rocket science.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:24 PM

Nursing homes!
Senior daycare centers!

haven't these people got enough to put up with, when their lives are blighted by age and infirmity?

whatever happened to Help the Aged?

A bit of compassion towards our senior citizens, please!

LOL.


But the truth is, it isn't so bad to sing for people who are hard of hearing. They get as much, or more, out of our time setting up our gear as from the music itself. The stories they want to tell.... If going to "sing" gives them even one extra visitor or activity a year, it's more than many of them get already.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:18 PM

Michael Jackson was 'BAD"... I think he went to Brunei

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

Nursing homes!
Senior daycare centers!

haven't these people got enough to put up with, when their lives are blighted by age and infirmity?
whatever happened to Help the Aged?
A bit of compassion towards our senior citizens, please!


the truth is that some people really do think they are wonderful, and they make a really horrid noise. Perhaps its something to do with the way their ears are stuck on.....who knows?

One word of advice, being nice doesn't work. Because at some point you will have to level with them - and then comes the tantrums, because you have provided a ray of hope.

When I was gigging pubs I had a lady used to turn up at my gigs. She'd go the landlord and say, Al knows me really well - is it okay if I sang a song, if he backs me on guitar? At first I agreed - just to be friendly.

I'm not kidding she was like biological germ warfare. The place would go silent. then it would empty. People would swallow down their drinks in swift gulps, and run for the hills. Firstly I thought it was funny, then I strated getting the 'what the f--k are you up to?' calls from my agent

The next thing I knew, she'd set up a gig at a club I'd always wanted to go to, but never had much success in approaching. She invited me round to tea to rehearse - and I told her no, I can't do this.

Well you can imagine....floods of tears, who has turned you against me?, I thought you liked me, my singing teacher says I'm a great talent......

Like it said on Hill Street blues - just be careful out there....!

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

...I disagree with Susan that "bad" singers are relegated to churches or Senior centers.


Oh no! I didn't say that. NotatALL. I think that I said it's a great place to DEVELOP.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:38 PM

Yes, what is "bad"? I used to hear that Woody Guthrie was a "bad" singer before he became well-known with "This Land Is Your Land". Bob Dylan was called "Hammond's Folly" named after John Hammond, the great record producer who brought us Count Basie, Billie Holiday,Bruce Springsteen, George Benson and so many great musicians.

I played a recording of Almeda Riddle for a music business class at a local university and
they all hooted without understanding what the style was.

Then there is the notion of the trained singers associations who have their own opinions
as to what constitutes "bad singing".

There are some singers who I would consider great performers but their voices turn me off.

I find that most of the popular groups on Saturday Night Live or even on American Idol
are what I would call "bad" but obviously the public doesn't agree with me.

I think that voice training is only part of the picture. Phrasing, personality, musicianship,
image and so many other elements have to be factored in.

I have known singers who study for years but are unable to communicate effectively with the public some who would probably consider them "bad" singers.

A lot has to do with finding the right audience for what you do. This takes a lot
of exploring. I disagree with Susan that "bad" singers are relegated to churches or Senior centers. Some of the people who work these venues are great singers who have found
their audience.

Pavarotti was undoubtably a great singer until he might have decided to sing jazz.
Renee Fleming and Eileen Farrell are great singers who don't do well with the jazz repertoire (in my opinion).

Louis Armstrong was a terrible, wonderful singer. His sandpaper voice captivated
everyone. I don't know of a single voice teacher who would have the nerve to teach
people to sing like Louis.

"Bad" singers can become good when they find the audience with which they can communicate.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:30 PM

It's all so subjective, innit?

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: meself
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:27 PM

Where the good doggies don't go.


(Sorry, couldn't resist).

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Gedi
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM

Bert, I have to agree with what you say there. I have come across some truly bad performers, but the majority of people, even if they are not completely 'polished', can give acceptable performances. However one thing that really gets me is the singer/songwriter who can neither sing nor write decent songs. Especially when that song drones on for ages.

This is another reason why I tend to prefer the more trad style of club (although it has to be said there are some trad songs which drone on a bit as well!) rather than the more 'progressive' type of place.

Ged

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:17 PM

Assuming anyone really wants an answer (and not just a a chance to whine about bad experiences), here are a couple of real examples. Oh, I realize that they are seldom where people WANT to sing, but they ARE great places to get better, learn to handle a mic, learn stagecraft, AND make a few people wildly happy:

<> Nursing homes
<> Senior daycare centers
<> Preschools
<> Mudcat gatherings
<> Festival INFORMAL song circles (campgrounds)
<> Church services (no you do NOT have the BELIEVE or act like it)
<> Campfires anywhere
<> Park benches

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:03 PM

There's bad and there's awful.

One person at a certain venue obviously wanted to sing but protested that she couldn't. I persuaded her to sing and she was right, she couldn't. After going throught this scenario several times, she took singing lessons an improved dramatically.

Then there was this other person at an open mic. She was dressed to the nines, could play her guitar and could sing in tune. BUT, she had written some songs in her chosen style, very long songs I might add. She started off and was very dreary, halfway through her first song (about five minutes into it) she made a mistake and started over. Her three songs took about half an hour and she was dreadful.

So it isn't only being able to play and sing.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:34 AM

I don't think that it is about 'polished performances' as such. For some years I belonged to a singaround circle. I don't think that any of us could be described as 'polished', and some members had styles which could be described as downright eccentric, but everyone was enthusiastic and put the work in. I wish I'd taped some of those nights - there were some extraordinary performances from people who were passionate about what they were doing.

Nowadays, I go to singarounds which are packed out with wanabees who mangle tunes, can't even sing in tune and can't remember the words unless they're on a crib sheet. They all think that they have a God-given RIGHT to sing even if they can't be bothered to learn how. The trouble is that these people are tending to crowd out the good singers. At our old singaround a good singer could get 3 or 4 songs in a night - now he/she is lucky to get one.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:23 AM

Pete - I don't have any serious argument with what you say so apologies for seeming to labour the point but it is a point I feel you are missing and if you are, then maybe other people are as well. You now say "It depends where you focus, doesn't it?" Well, why do you feel the need to focus on one thing at all? Can we not see the stars and mud at the same time?

Like the 'half full, half empty' argument. I have been accused of being pessimistic and portraying a dire picture of folk clubs. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am, by nature, a very possitive person. My wife has said that I would find the good in Adolf Hitler! But I am also a realist. It is no good pretending that all is coming up roses if the greenflies are eating them:-)

All I am saying is that there are poor performers and bad singers out there. We don't need to focus exclusively on them but they are still there even if we ignore them altogether. And it is them that, unfortunately, the press seem to find and the people who are new to folk clubs seem to meet periodicaly.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: DebC
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:10 AM

I have always believed that there are no such animals as bad singers. Singing is such a joy that I have always believed that anyone who wants to sing should do so.

However, I *do* believe that there are bad performers. Maybe defining "performing" is what we might want to think about. I enjoy going to singers' nights and singarounds and hearing the singers. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks of their contribution, if they derive happiness from that so be it and it is not my place to criticise and/or judge that contribution.

If I go specifically to see a "performance", ie; a person standing in front of a group of people to present a song to an audience rather than contribute a song among a group, I would expect that person to be a bit more polished.

I don't know if I made the distinction that I had hoped to make. I agree with my good buddy, Dick Miles though-there are places where singers can get feedback and assistance to become better singers.

But we do need to encourage singing and let people find the joy of making music with the voice.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:51 AM

Mud and stars......of course they both exist.....same as the glass half full and the glass half empty.

It depends where you focus, doesn't it?

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:39 AM

Workshops.
Honest and constructive critique of the song and the performance.
Try to avoid Simon Callow wannabes though.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

In early days of going to folk clubs the ones some would consider "Bad*" where the old blokes straight off the farm or out of the village Smithy.

Where would we be if the organizers said "low calibre - can't sing here". We would have lost the genuine traditional songs they often brought with them and at the very least the authentic singing style which some organizers would die for to hear now.

Luckily organisers tendy to swoon when they discovered these chaps were not beginers/perpetual beginners - but instead the real thing! But it does highlight a bit of hypocracy.

I'll include a lyric when I get a bit longer on the internet which makes the point.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM

No Names . No Pack drill !!
Tenth Anniversary singaround to remember a Defunct Folk Club , and the same people were doing the same things after ten years ! Being in a singaround circle and NOT realising that they are the next performer , NOT knowing their songs , and NOT having their instruments in tune ! No bloody wonder it was a defunct club !

The REALLY sad thing was the number of people who turned up !

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:09 AM

I always that everyone can sing , but with his own nose , its a saying here in my home country, but if can , ask someone who have learn song
to teach you the basic ´s then practice you will improve in time .

I have heard many people who did not sound good in my ears
but have had some instrucions from teacher and vá how good they are
now .

All the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:04 AM

I've yet to meet a poor performer who makes no effort to improve....

Maybe they all live somewhere else!

Maybe they do, because I've met plenty. The sort who've learned the 3-chord trick in a couple of keys and learned a handful of songs, and think that's all there is to it. I know, and have known, a number of guitarists who can't pick up the key when playing in a session, can't even tell if it's major or minor, and then play a stolid on-the-beat rhythm which kills the tune stone dead. I've known singers who constantly recycle the same 3 or 4 songs, and still get them wrong (I still have a soft spot for one singer I used to know who would insist on singing "Black Velvet Band with the words, "I'll give you seven years penile servitude..." This wasn't a joke).

The professionals, and the better amateurs, are constantly striving to improve. So are many of the less good ones. But there are many who seem to be happy to reach a certain basic level and leave it at that.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:56 AM

Bryan - I am sure you will not regret it and thanks for asking. Very sensible question. We have two regulars at the moment. We do get the occasional travelling song strangler but I am discounting those. This is amongst a core of over 20 regular performers including residents so, less than 10%. Some clubs have less and some, I understand, have more. I know it is a very minor issue but it is an issue all the same. In one of the other threads a group of people were put off by by poor performers and it could happen with any of us if we are not careful.

Pete Two people looked through the prison bars....one saw mud...the other stars.... Regardless of what they saw both the stars and the mud still existed. They are not mutualy exclusive. Just because most people that sing at folk clubs are acceptable does not mean they all are. Just as not all should be tarred as bad because there are a few that realy are. Unfortunatey it is a fact of life that when people have a good experience they may tell someone else. When they have a bad one they will tell 10 someone elses! :-( Ask any customer service provider to confirm that if you don't believe it.

Darowyn - Glad someone said it before I did:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:59 AM

It's a tough question. All I can say (for what it's worth) is, I can not make myself applaud a bad performance. To encourage someone who is obviously tone deaf and doesn't know it, or worse yet, does know it and still wants to torture an audience is beyond me.

Seems to me that the obvious solution is to simply leave when the no talent "singer" starts. If we all did that, they might get the hint.
Personally, someone singing or playing off key is painful to my ears and I just can't tolerate it.

That's a personal opinion. If I had control over it I would just ignore it until it was finished, but, it makes more sense to just leave.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:55 AM

Why do they have to 'go' anywhere - why can't they buckle down and become better singers?
If people have trouble identifying a 'bad' singer (as distinct from a mediocre, middling, fair, good, excellent one) maybe they're in the wrong game.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:23 AM

While broadly agreeing with you, Arnie, ....I've yet to meet a poor performer who makes no effort to improve....

Maybe they all live somewhere else!

Dave

Two people looked through the prison bars....one saw mud...the other stars....

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Arnie
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

I suppose one advantage of a bad singer is that when you're the following act, you've got to be an improvement on what went before! Seriously though, I think most clubs could manage with one poor performer but you really wouldn't want more than one otherwise they tend to drive away some of the audience, especially the non-regulars who may have just dropped in to see what the folk club is about. When the folk club is trying to attract a larger audience, it helps to put on a decent evening's entertainment and a poor performer is not going to help the cause. I know that most of us started out as nervous newcomers, but it really is a case of putting some effort into practising and improving with time. A poor performer who makes no effort to improve is basically just being rude by inflicting themselves on a usually courteous audience.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:05 AM

DeG When someone cannot keep a song in key or time; when they do not know the words; when they cannot play the instrument they have brought and finaly and most importantly DO SO ON A REGULAR BASIS WITH NO SIGN OF IMPROVEMENT

How many of those conditions have to be met to be 'bad'? Assuming it's not all of them at once, then I have recordings of respected performers demonstrating each of them, and on a regular basis. That doen't mean I think any less of the performance.

Phil

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

I find the definition of 'bad' difficult. I can understand 'BAD', but I've not encountered many of those.

(Into Grumpy Old Man mode)

There seems to be a concentration today on polished performance - understandable, with the plethora of media currently available. It didn't used to be like that. In the second half of the 60s and 70s, I was one of the organisers of a successful club, meeting every Thursday evening. Usually we had about 50 or 60 in the club. We booked a guest about 8 or 10 times a year - those evenings were more concert performances than club nights, although occasionally the guest would only do the second half.

The normal club nights were filled with about 20 members, mostly solo or duo, doing short spots of 2 to 4 songs and a very few instrumentals. We also had another dozen or so from the surrounding area, who would drop in from time to time. The standard varied widely, from a few who took paid bookings and have subsequently recorded and performed on major stages, through the majority who were reasonable singers and could hold the audience, to a few who struggled.

They weren't BAD singers, or even bad singers, but they lacked either the confidence or the voice to hold the audience. We usually restricted them to one song. Some of them developed into competent performers, while others gradually faded away.

Starting this thread, DeG said: I believe that everyone should have somewhere to sing or play, regardless of ability. But I would restrict the bad performers to performing within a circle of friends and try to help them improve that way. I would not, as a folk club organiser, let them perform in front of an audience of strangers.
We had a folk club, mainly attended by regular members. That still seems to me the right place for aspiring or developing performers. I'm sure I'd feel at home in Burnley Folk Club, but it's a long way to go.

I think the other factor that helped was that we had no amplification - what we heard was 'real'. As to where 'bad' singers can go now - they could always join the rest on the endless TV shows, where flashy production and fancy electronics can disguise a lot of faults.

(Grumpy Old Man mode off)

I would distinguish folk club nights from concert nights. If you're advertising a performance, it's not appropriate to include singers of much lower ability. But for 'club' nights, I would accept almost anyone who is brave enough to try. I only rejected one volunteer in 10 years - he was rolling drunk. I still wonder if I might have missed a memorable performance!

Phil

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:49 AM

Perhaps all the bad singers could go outside in a huddle at the door,like smokers have to at the moment, or have a little tent in the garden.

Someone suggested a collective name for a group of outside smokers :- a "smuddle".

What could be a collective noun for a huddle of bad singers - I think a "cacophany" is already used for crows, isn't it ?

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:42 AM

go to workshops,
record themselves,then seek advice from people they respect and ask for suggestions.
learn to play amusical instrument,here is an example,I have ahalf brother,who was a terrible singer[thin john t], WaddonPete might remember him ,he was a room clearer,he couldnt stay in the same key for one song,however he took violin lessons for some years,the result was an improvement in his singing,he learned to hear intervals better,he managed to learn where to pitch songs,and learned to sing in tune,although not a good singer he became passable,providing he chose the right material.
Singers can learn to train their voices,by using an instrument singing scales with an instrument etc,and then doing breathing exercises,from the diaphragm,to improve their breath control,and then listen to themselves.

Subject: RE: Where can bad singers go?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:37 AM

I know I'm going to regret this but....

How many of these BAD performers do you have at your Swinton singarounds Dave?