homage to Rise Up Singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I've been studiously trying to avoid any further posts to this thread, hoping it would mercifully fall off the bottom of the page. But that doesn't seem to be happening, so I'll add my bit.

I can see definite parallels with songs circles and Irish tune sessions.

At one end of the spectrum, there are elite Irish sessions where you practically have to audition to be able to even sit in the sacred circle. Or it's by invitation only. The high-level players want to play at their high level and don't want anyone to muck it up. Semi-elite sessions might allow you to sit in the circle, perhaps even play softly, but never be expected or allowed to lead a tune. They just want to be able to play at the highest level, and don't seem to be concerned about bringing any less experienced plays up to that level.

At the other end are strictly beginner sessions where everyone sits in front of a music stand and very slowly plays note for note off the music. There's no life to the music, it's simply just notes, and no one progresses beyond that stage. That may be enjoyable to some, but I would think they would eventually get tired of it.

Then there's the intermediate level sessions - some good and some bad. Sometimes a new want-to-be player has to be told politely or not-politely to sit and listen until they learn how to play the music (the right rhythm, speed, etc.), or even leave if they are really annoying the other players. Some sessions may play too fast for your taste, or too slow. Some are very welcoming to new plays, others may not be. So you have to choose the session that best fits your needs and desires. And if you can't find such as session, then start your own. It's traditional music, and there's no ONE right way to play it, although there may be many bad ways.

There's a lot of session etiquette and unwritten rules that you just have to learn by observing and using some common sense. A few times I've been blown away trying to lead a particular version of a tune when someone else pays no attention to the tune I've started and loudly plays his/her own version or ramps up the speed. One has to learn that the person who starts the tune has the right to choose the version and speed of the tune, and others should first listen and follow that lead. Good session players pay close attention to all the other players, particularly to the one who's leading the tune. A wink of the eye, a nod of the head, or a lifted foot will signal when a tune will end or new tune will begin.

Tune session players can get into the same arguments (even worse!) as we've gotten into here about song sessions or circles. I think we all have to be more accepting of others, and if the session we're in doesn't suit us, find one that does, or start our own session. All sessions, tune or song, should involve learning and growing in the music.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

When I attend your group, I will abide by its rules if you will honor the customs and practices of the ones I like to attend, should you care to attend any.

Good point Don...the problem is that people often, generally, usually??? are not told what the rules are, or the customs..and as people drift away because of this the problem increases until, as others have said, a new group has formed...but there needs to be a way to serve both groups...I think two separate types of events..

And at camps..same thing. Have RUS be the default if you want. If those of us who want a separate experience want..we should say I will be in this room at this time doing this type of singing. Please join us if that is your preference. I always say we do not take turns and we do not sing under kleig lights and we don't do much talking. That eliminates most people often.. another group in BC likes to sing the long solo ballads.. I might join them for 15 minutes but my attention span usually fails me around then.

If there is a group with the books and with the flourescent lights, I have an attention span of 3 songs max. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

There is one point upon which I would not totally agree with Mary (mg).

I like to hear her sing solo. She has a very nice voice for solo singing, and she knows a lot of really great songs. And she can slip into the background and sing softly when she wants.

####

"Manufactured groups." Yes, I can see how a group that meets regularly in a church basement, a rented meeting room, or in someone's home once or twice a month and has a set of explicit rules about who sings when and what they can sing (and what they can sing from) can be considered a "manufactured group."

But I don't see that this applies to a group of friends (usually including friends of friends, and occasionally neighbors) who get together often, but on an irregular basis, usually initiated by a telephone call (or these days, an e-mail), and almost invariably gathers in someone's living room or rec room. The only rules or structure that applies are those of common courtesy, which includes the idea that if I've sung three songs in a row, it's time for me to shut up and give someone else a chance.

Singing at "hoots" was how I first broke in, as did a whole bunch of other singers that I know. And this is not ancient history. These gatherings have been going on for as long as I can remember, and they're still going on. They include group singing: chorus songs, sea chanteys, and such. Duets, trios, solo singing, what have you. Plenty of opportunity for someone who likes group singing—unless that's all that this someone wants to do.

And for any newbie who might have any ambitions of becoming a performer (coffeehouses, concerts, gigs in general)—and I know that in the minds of some, a "true folk singer" is not supposed to have any ambitions along those lines (tell that to Jean Ritchie)—these get-togethers are a warm plunge. Plenty of encouragement and assistance if you want it. Mentoring? I got plenty of it from people like Walt when I first started singing.

Community feeling? Lots of community feeling. It just happens naturally.

As far as the occasional person using a song sheet or crib notes, that's no problem, unless the person is occupying everybody else's time by rehearsing in front of them. As Stilly says, ". . . learners . . . were expected to learn in a way that didn't impede the enjoyment of everyone else."

I've had the same kind of experiences that Barry talks about (many times—most times, and I've also had the kind of experience that Mark describes: being told that I'm "not singing it right" because that's not the version in the book.

("Well, maybe not in that book, but I'm singing the version I learned from Carl Sandburg's American Song Bag, so if you feel strongly about it, go duke it out with Carl!")

But if you want to get together with a bunch of other people and all sing together out of the same book, feel free. The Constitution guarantees your right to Freedom of Assembly. When I attend your group, I will abide by its rules if you will honor the customs and practices of the ones I like to attend, should you care to attend any.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

Yep, Mark, if you read my earlier post you will see I had the same problem. I have even had them sing over the top of the version I was singing, trying to superimpose their own version. The opposite of that kind of rudeness is singing for one of my favorite groups of folkies, the FSGW. When I have done mini concerts with them, they always listen first for where I am taking the song, then they chime in and always in the right spot. Some of the most amazing harmonies, I just love it. They let me do the song, and sing in the right places as opposed to trying to control what I am doing.

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

Mg, if you ever come to the Northeast, you'll have to visit the Shanty sing in Gloucester, Mass. You'll love the way the floor starts to roll as the songs start to get sung.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

I have no objection to RUS per se(I have a copy around here somewhere)but the final straw for me was I when I happened into a music store in Portland OR last year and found a song circle about to start. I was invited to join in, and I did so. But when someone said let's do SPANISH IS A LOVING TONGUE, and I volunteered that that song was in my songbag, I proceeded to sing it with others joining in. When the song was finished, the person who had called for that song,loudly announced that my version was too different from the version in his blue backed bible. Like I said, I have no objection to the book as a reference, but to insist that it's carved in stone, that is where I draw the line!


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

I do love the shanty sings...and maritime music in general. Gospel...for a while...I also like smaller groups very much. I guess I am just not into many solos, good or bad, but I prefer good. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Boil it up or strip it down. When I go to a book sing this is what I see.
People buried in books, not really looking at each other, there is no repoire between the participants, no back & forth. There's a lack of body movement to the music. There's the feeling that there's a class going on & an absent of belly laughter. There's not a lot of grinning from ear to ear though I have seen smiles cracking the surface. I've never seen an outside walk in by accident & stay & join, much less return, matter of fact towards the end it usually thins out quickly, like where did everybody go.

Now when I go to a free for all bookless session here's what I notice.
Feet & finger tapping, sometimes foot stomping & clapping (I don't like the clapping but sometimes folks get carried away. I see people whispering in ears & laughing or joking out loud. Some even teasing in jest the singer while they're singing & the singer breaking the song to respond in tune to the jest. I here joking & laughter. Hell not long ago I even saw a fight, that was a first & not a good thing either but you can't say it lacked passion. I've seen folks come in by accident & stay & join in & even return & become part of the group. I see people stay until the place closes down & carry it on out side cuz they're not yet done. I also notice people with their arms over the shoulders or around the waists of others, some with ears bent towards each other looking each other in the eyes & singing their own harmonies face to face. I see a friendship being built before the sings over & it gets built upon sing after after. I see strangers who've planned on coming come in & feel as if they've been part of the group for years after only spending hours with the group.

This is what I see as the difference between the 2 groups. Take whatever you want out of this but I know which group I'd rather be a part of & I know which group is enjoying themselves more & they're also getting back as much or more than/as they put into it.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

mg-
Have you considered going to shanty sings and gospel sings? In these, there are lots of easy choruses and the songs are much more suited to a lot of people singing. General folk music only sometimes benefits from mass participation.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

I think part of the problem, at least as I saw it in Seattle, was people coming new were given false information..even what time it started..they kept being told 7:30 when no critical mass was achieved until 8:30 or so.

Then they were told straight out, oh, anything is Ok. Well, it wasn't, but they weren't told. Just watch how the old-timers respond when the new ones wanted to sing "Today while the blossoms still cling to the vine." I think that is true test, that song. They would cringe, and pretend they didn't know it.

A kinder thing to do would be to say, this is what we tend to do, this is what we tend to like. But no one wants to say this and so everyone is uncomfortable. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I consider them a group activity. I am not interested in listening to even very good "performers" go around a big circle one by one and have to listen to them politely too. My politeness veneer is obviously wearing thin...I personally don't care if a person rehearses or not as long as the group can take over..still allowing the leader to set the rhythm and tune (as long as it is not absolutely hopeless and then more support is required). I realize I have musical ADD..I want to be singing along most of the time...and you probably in a big group wouldn't knnow whether I was or I wasn't as I have a pretty innocuous voice.So I am not a leader and not a performer but I am a participant. I think if I know the words I can sing along with anyone, chorus or verse, unless they specifically say otherwise, but I guess in some places that is frowned upon, like when I was in the Canada camp lately. But no offense..even very good singers doing those long Irish songs...that don't have a place for people to clunk their beer bottles on the table... are not something I have a great desire to hear more than one or two per evening. So my preference is loud and fast, or sweet and saccharine, and not much talking, much less huge long introductions..people can ask you privately later what your source is or you can say it in 20 words or less.

I guess I am there for a high amount of singing and a low amount of serving as an audience for people to sing their solos, rehearsed or not, even very good singers or not. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

"Spontaneous performance suffers when it stumbles over an unrehearsed performer."

That may be the difference in all of our "interpretations" of sings. Are the group sings that we have been discussing considered a "performance" or is it a group activity, or is it both?    I don't think there is a right or wrong answer as there it has become obvious that there are many different sings.   We just need to know what animals have been grazing about before we tap dance in the pasture.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter.

Yes, but to be clear again, I'm discussing a particular context only, not all music at large. Spontaneous performance suffers when it stumbles over an unrehearsed performer. That's the gist of it. No "cold blooded academia" here.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

SRS - please do not think of this as an "arguement". This is a discussion and there are no hard feelings meant. You stated an opinion and I offered my own. Neither one of us, nor anyone else on this thread, is making definitive statements as to what should.

"This is the light I would like to see shine more on the songs rather than whether the lyrics are read out of a book or memorized. We are not automatons who robotically spout lyrics and songs that are over a century old. This is bloodless academia in my opinon. We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter."

Frank, I think your few sentences have summed up what the essence of what I and others have been trying to express in this lengthy thread.   Sing for the song!

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Do folk musicians have to do songs that somebody else did first? That's a hard question to answer. I like to think that there is room for new songs based on tradition. Again, I bring up one of my favorite singer/songwriters Jean Ritchie (sorry if I embarrass you, Jean) for taking the tradition she grew up with and adding to it with fine songs.

If a songwriter or singer is inspired by the folk music of the past, shouldn't they be allowed to participate in this process? Isn't that really the experience of the so-called "folk singer" of the past? What is the "true experience"? We all sing songs that we were not historically there for. This is true of the so-called real folk singers.

Isn't this just another way of lauding the "Noble Savage" for being pure and uncorrupted?
(Rousseau and Dryden revisited?) It seems to me that the vitality of folk music, (the music of working-class people, agrarian folks, those coming from a specific tradition such as African-American or ?) is about the life it brings through (here's that controversial word again) "Evolution".

Folk music has to evolve to exist in my opinion. There are some anthropologists who have a "classical" bent who want to study cultures unsullied by outside contact. Herskovitz and the Golden Bough come to mind. This in my opinion is a form of "scalp collecting". Pete, one of my heroes, maintained that a vital folk music is one in which anyone can contribute and allow it to grow.

In my opinion, (and I obviously have too many for my own good,) studying a culture and its music has a reward in which those who do their homework can participate somehow in it. I look at the Seegers for example. Also Jean Ritchie and Bess Lomax Hawes. This is what many of us "city folkies" try to do. Study and participate.

This is the light I would like to see shine more on the songs rather than whether the
lyrics are read out of a book or memorized. We are not automatons who robotically
spout lyrics and songs that are over a century old. This is bloodless academia in my opinon. We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Ron, I'm not going to argue with you, I stated an opinion and a preference in the light of someone else asserting that my earlier statement bolstered his opinion. It did not.

I am reminded of how I learned folk dances back in the days when I lived near an active folkdance community and danced every week. One got behind a row or line or group of dancers who knew the dance and you were not in the way as you watched and practiced the steps to learn the dance. You didn't join in the line or the square or the circle until you had the rudiments at least, so you weren't going to trip up the rest of the dancers.

Those who wanted to start out with the experienced dancers were generally taken aside and told how to learn it or someone taught them the steps away from the line. If you went there to dance, you wanted to dance, and learners of a given dance were expected to learn in a way that didn't impede the enjoyment of everyone else. This analogous approach is one I would also consider appropriate also in the song circle setting. If you have the book along, don't plan to lead the song from it, learn the song in the background first.

SRS

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

"Now if you're a practitioner of the true oral tradition, the folk process, and you're learning a song in a public setting and not off of a page, then you're listening and learning and singing along, but you're not leading the song. "

If you are a TRUE practitioner of the "true" oral tradition (whatever that could be), then you would be singing in "true" settings and not in a group that gets together once a month in a church basement.   

If you want an analogy, what we are doing is nothing different from Civil War re-enactors who spend a weekend sleeping in a tent playing with toy guns and then driving home in their BMW's for the rest of the week. It's great fun and should be encouraged, but it is not the "true" experience.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

"Whether a song is authored or handed down, singing that song in public should ideally be from memory, whatever the source, at least in the context we are discussing. Big name performers, say in an operatic recital, might have the music in front of them, but they know the piece very well, they aren't standing staring at the music. It is there as a reminder of where they are, what comes next, and probably most importantly, what everyone else around them is doing. But we're talking about self-selected groups of folk singing enthusiasts."

Where has it been written in stone that "folk singing enthusiasts" require these rules?   You chose the proper word - "enthusiasts", just as there are "enthusiasts" for opera, choral music, sacred music, etc.   The other groups can have a wonderful experience using books and yet the "folk" community has a requirement that to sing in a manufactured setting a book should not be used?    More power to those who can sing without one, and everyone should be encouraged to sing from memory, but I think we create our own barriers.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

It's also possible to sing a song from memory AND sing (and play) one from a text while still learning, and both enjoy it yourself and please a supportive group of fellow singers. It's all this bright line drawing I object to.

Ref, this ISN'T what I said. Whether a song is authored or handed down, singing that song in public should ideally be from memory, whatever the source, at least in the context we are discussing. Big name performers, say in an operatic recital, might have the music in front of them, but they know the piece very well, they aren't standing staring at the music. It is there as a reminder of where they are, what comes next, and probably most importantly, what everyone else around them is doing. But we're talking about self-selected groups of folk singing enthusiasts.

I will reiterate: I posted early on this thread supporting those who don't like "performers" standing with their faces down in a book singing from the pages. If you're going to a song circle to share, then you need to already know the song from heart and have incorporated it into your oeuvre enough to be able to simply sing it. I make the distinction of reading from the pages of a book as practice (how you learn the song--at home) and sharing (in public) what you already know.

Now if you're a practitioner of the true oral tradition, the folk process, and you're learning a song in a public setting and not off of a page, then you're listening and learning and singing along, but you're not leading the song.

SRS

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

Also, it occurred to me that some of the Indian women looked like that wished that they had songbooks so they could join in.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

I am not mean at all, but love good fun, and I really did sing along!--If you liked that one, here's an Even Better Latvian Video Clip

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

Poppa - the reason we play poker isn't so much for the love of the game, but for the social aspect of getting together and having a few beers and laughs. THAT is where is SIMILAR in respect to group singing - a spirit that brings people together.   Of course the actual function differs dramatically.

Mary, those were lovely videos. IF someone had been reading from a book or a cue card, would that change your feeling about the video? If the soundtrack did not change one note, would you have felt differently if you saw someone reading a sheet of music?

I still feel that there is confusion or failure to understand what many of us are saying. NO ONE is recommending that books be used in this thread. NO ONE. Read all 300 or so notes to confirm.

People are throwing about terms like "folk process", which in itself is nothing more than a theory created by a brilliant individual and adopted by the folk community. It is also a misunderstood theory.

A group sing has absolutely NOTHING to do with a folk process. The events that have been described here are manufactured gatherings developed in the later half of the 20th century. To the dismay of some, they continue to evolve and they continue to be diverse.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having different types of group sings. Water finds its own level.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

Ya' know Ted......You got a real nasty streak in you. I like that!

Spaw {;<))

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

Ron, I'm sorry to have implied you and your buddies might be playing poker for anything other than love of the game.

However, poker normally does involved money changing hands, which makes it fundamentally different from group singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:39 AM

What I am glad about, MG, is that, in the Latvian video, the words are highlighted on the screen, so I can sing along--even though I don't know Latvian.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:21 AM

Sage:

My point exactly. It's also possible to sing a song from memory AND sing (and play) one from a text while still learning, and both enjoy it yourself and please a supportive group of fellow singers. It's all this bright line drawing I object to.

Every song was originally made up by someone. Then it gets added to and adapted by the "folk process." Why do we give a song extra credit because we don't know who the originator was? But I digress...

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:53 AM

aren't you glad these ladies don't have a book between them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4lWHF5h2e4

or these young people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-SlVoJUWs

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:59 PM

Doesn't that disqualify them from being FOLK musicians?

New songs are new songs, even if they're sung in a folk style, non-amplified, whatever. Nothing wrong with them, but they're not subject to the "Folk Process."

Inspiration from folk songs, using folk songs as a context, this is a viable way to create new songs. But they are new songs.

It is possible to do several things very well: perform the old songs, and write new songs. It's also helpful if your audience can appreciate the distinctions and not hold it against the performer/writer for being able to do both.

SRS

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM

Spaw, wasn't that already done back in #4386960907 which was linked in subsequent #9709970682 and its off-shoot #109080978696976-2?

(Doesn't look as though I've missed much since the 29 of Dec.!)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM

Very clever

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:29 PM

No Bob, I think that all of them need to take an Analogy and call back if and when it works{;<))...........A thread in search of an analogy!

Spaw

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:04 PM

HEY FELLAS' ... I have a suggestion ... why don't you both take two asprins and call your doctors in the morning! SHEEEUH! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:51 PM

not again

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

Would you care to explain that, Ron?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:50 PM

If that is your story.

I'm beginning to see know why you do not wish to read from a book.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

Apparently that's the case, Rom, because sometimes when your quote from or respond to something I have posted, it really looks like you have no idea of what I'm talking about, or that we're simply talking past each other.

And Ref, there is quite probably a distinction between folk singers and singers who sing folk songs. For example, I do not consider myself to be a "folk singer." I was urban born and raise, and the songs I heard while I was growing up were mostly on the radio. I was not raised in the oral tradition. Therefore, I am a singer who just happens (by choice) to sing mostly folk songs, and mostly of the traditional variety, which I learn from recordings and song books, or from others such as myself, who also learned the songs they sing from recordings and song books--and each other.

There is an "oral tradition" and a "folk process" in there somewhere, but since I do sing for money (in addition to singing for fun), I take a leaf from Richard Dyer-Bennet's book and regard myself as being more in the tradition of "minstrel" than in that of "folk singer."

Okay, I'll check in from time to time to see how this post gets dissected and reinterpreted.

And by the way, Ron, I don't smoke. Anything.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM

"I wasn't suggesting, as someone apparently seemed to think, that I was advocating that we should have them cloned."

Don, what are you smoking???   Where on earth did you draw such a strange inference???   Perhaps someone else sent you a private e-mail, but I cannot understand how anyone would read that in my post.   Was it really that hard for you to read the rest of my post and understand?

I guess we are not speaking the same language these days.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM

Pete Seeger, Frank Hamilton, and Joan Baez have all three been known to "make up songs out of their own heads" (for MONEY, no less!) and even perform them in public. They even inspire some other folks to do likewise. Doesn't that disqualify them from being FOLK musicians?

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

When I said, "Where are the new Pete Seegers and Frank Hamiltons and Guy Carawans and Susan Reeds and Joan Baezes and Cynthia Goodings coming from?" I wasn't suggesting, as someone apparently seemed to think, that I was advocating that we should have them cloned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:47 PM

Sorry Poppa, but we actually do like taking turns picking each other's pockets. We really don't have a revolving door in the game, only occasionally inviting someone to join us or an old friend back in town. 9 out of 10 games it is the same people, and we aren't in it for the money. Purely nickel and dime stuff, the most anyone wins or loses is around $25.

The analogy makes sense ONLY if you understand the reasons WE play poker. Granted, many people would rather play in a game that is more cuthroat - no limits, new players to be marks, etc. That isn't why WE play.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

Speaking of poker: "There are some players who are simply awful, and you can tell what cards they have and how they will bet. Do we tell them to stay home because we want to improve our game so that we can play in a tourney for ESPN?   No, we would miss the cameraderie, the laughs and the friendship..."

C'mon, be honest ~ you like being able to take their money, and pretty easily, too ~ right? And once someone learns the ropes and becomes less of an easy mark, it's time for the next sacrificial lamb to be brought aboard; otherwise, you and your longtime buddies will just be taking turns picking each other's pockets.

Newbies (fresh fish) are an asset to an ongoing poker game in a way that inexperienced singers can never be in the context of a group-singing meeting. Bad analogy...

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

It's a young persons game, as it should be. Old bones get cranky and the whining doesn't help healing.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

It's been clear all along that you don't play ball.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:18 AM

No, I am a team player but I don't play ball.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:30 AM

Somehow I figured you to be a ball player, Barry.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:57 PM

Sorry, I played on & for that team for years, matter of fact I played on a number of teams & got to know a lot of other team player but then a new crew came along & slowly started changing not only the rules but also the game & who could play & not play & what & what not they could play & even how they could play it. A bunch of us old time players got pushed out of our own league but that was fine, they sucked at what they were doing & we wern't having fun anymore so we went off & started a new one of our own. We sometimes play in not so public places & we sometimes don't broadcast where we play either but if you happen to stumble upon us will we're in the middle of our playing you're more than welcome to join in. Just behave, do as you see others doing & don't try to change the game nor the rules again, thanks. Now go somewhere & be happy doing what you do best.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM

" You would have some patience, and some encouragement, but at some point you would want to play with people more or less at your level, with more or less the same outlook."

I think patience and encouragement is something we all agree on - and you you point out, if you are too good for the bridge game and do not enjoy the social atmosphere, then YOU move on.

I've been involved in a poker game for nearly 30 years. There is a core of about 6 of us who are regulars and a few who rotate. There are some players who are simply awful, and you can tell what cards they have and how they will bet. Do we tell them to stay home because we want to improve our game so that we can play in a tourney for ESPN?   No, we would miss the cameraderie, the laughs and the friendship.   So, I am the first to admit I will fold with a good hand - as do others in the group. We also point out these items to help the player. There are a few people who come to the game and need the reference card so they can figure out what hand beats what.

Every now and then I can get in my car and go to Atlantic City if I want a challenge and to improve my skills.

As for baseball, naturally I would not want a scrub on my team. I would want to see the scrub get some at bats for a little league team, and - no offense is meant here - ALL these folklore societies are "little league" caliber. This is not about fielding the best squad to play in the World Series.

A song circle is different from all these analogies - and once again, even though some people choose to ignore this, THERE IS NO ONE SAYING YOU SHOULD NOT PLAY WITH A GROUP OF YOUR CHOOSING AND WITH SINGERS THAT YOU ENJOY. NOT EVERYONE IS MEANT TO BE A MENTOR, NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY MIGHT BE.   EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. GROUPS EVOLVE - IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, THE DOOR IS OPEN. I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE SINGLE PERSON SAY THAT THESE GROUPS THAT THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT HAVE CLOSED. THE BETTER SINGERS MOVE ON. IT IS NOT THE END OF THE SESSION, THE MUSIC WILL CONTINUE - EVERYONE IS REPLACABLE.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:43 PM

I stopped playing bridge a long time ago, when it was no longer fun for me. When I played though, we were always looking for a fourth, and were pretty accepting of other cultures.

Same for baseball, you've got to play with the team you have, not the team you'd like.

I have a feeling that if you asked the "powers that be" to start up a new club with people who were similar to you in terms of of passion, expertise, and desire to do things a certain way, you wouldn't much like the place they put you..

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Well, what if you had a baseball league, or a bridge club that had been ongoing for a while. You would have some patience, and some encouragement, but at some point you would want to play with people more or less at your level, with more or less the same outlook. Should new people adapt to you or you to them? Would you keep playing baseball if it was no longer fun for you? Or bridge, if people like me had a mild interest in it, but were there more for socializing and did not share your passion for it, alhtough were wild about the bridge mix chocolates? Or perhaps they had a passion but really slowed the game down and had to look at the rule book every few minutes, and didn't really understand the culture that had developed over many many years. Should I go into this bridge club and insist they do it my way? Or should I ask the bridge powers that be to start up a new club with people who were similar to me in terms of passion, expertise, desire to do things at a certain speed and intensity, etc.? mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: MickyMan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:20 PM

Has anybody seen that young kid on Youtube who is systematically recording each song from RUS and posting them with page numbers ...etc.
That sounds like an interesting idea, and I'll bet he'll get to be quite the guitarist by the time he finishes his project many years from now.