Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II

Subject: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 02:12 AM

I haven't seen anything official from Sing Out!, but the newsletter of the San Francisco Folk Music Club says that Peter & Annie Blood-Patterson are compiling a second volume of "Rise Up Singing," to be sent to the publisher in November. The newsletter says Peter and Annie are looking for songs that are easy to learn, play, and sing with a group; and that have tunes that are widely known or can be located relatively easily by most people. They're looking for lists of suggested songs, and ask that the lists include title, author, source (primary or secondary), and the classification you'd put it in. I thought it would be interesting to have a thread here for suggestions. Anybody have any contributions? First on my list is "When You and I Were Young, Maggie," by George W. Johnson and James Austin Butterfield, lyrics and chords in the Folksinger's Wordbook (and in the Digital Tradition). -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Jack
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 01:11 PM

I'd add a chapter on drinking songs. ;-)

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 01:44 PM

If you think that we really need another 'Rise Up Singing' ;-) , you could start with the two recent threads of 'Fantasy Folk Circle'

Bert

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 04:43 PM

This is where the conflict comes up, between the folk purists and those of us who believe in.....adultery. "Rise Up Singing" is meant to be a people's songbook, not a folk songbook. One would hope that many of the songs in the book would be "traditional folk" songs, but the purpose of the book is to encourage a large number of people to have a good time singing. Personally, I think that's a noble purpose, and I'm looking forward to a second volume. I have been enjoying the Fantasy Folk Circle, but I think that a good number of the songs mentioned don't fit the purpose of 'Rise Up Singing' because the songs are a bit too obscure. So, are there specific songs anyone would like to suggest that meet the "Rise Up Singing" criteria? -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 05:18 PM

Hmmm. I don't think that the problem arises with the purists really. Rise Up Singing (RUS) is a fun book. We have three copies at home and use it a lot.

The problem I see with RUS is that it has become a de facto standard with the versions and songs being set in concrete.

Some singers will actually glare at you should you dare sing a song that is not in their bible.

An even worse situation arises if the song is in RUS but it is not the version that you sing.
In that case your 'beautiful rendition' is marred by the rest of the crowd singing a different version which is both discordant and embarrassing.

I suppose though, that it will come to pass, and I'll probably buy a few copies and enjopy it.

Should we call it the new testament? :-)

Bert.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: rich r
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 09:44 PM

I have sort of solved the RUS problem by going out of my way to do a different version of many of the good songs that are in RUS. Fortunately there is only one other person in the circle here with a copy of it. He often does things pretty straight out of the book, but is tolerant and frequently says "that's an interesting version (tune) (chord progression)". I think some of RUS' chords are pretty goofy but at least they are a starting place. I don't think it should be given the status of the divinely inspired and officially sanctioned by a panel of bishops hymnal of singable songs.

rich r

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 97 - 11:57 PM

Our Song Circle relies pretty heavily on RUS, but they're receptive to people bringing in photocopied lyrics of other songs. As a former camp counselor, I come from the Camp Song Tradition and prefer songs you can sing in the dark - songs with simple choruses that are easy to learn, with a song leader singing the verses. I don't feel comfortable relying on a book so heavily, but that's what we do. I do like the equalizing effect the book has, however. We go around the circle, and each person gets to pick a song for the group to sing. We have 30-40 people in our Sacramento Song Circle, and we sing a wide variety of songs. We get into the more serious stuff later in the evening, when it's just a core of die-hards left. Our circle in the nearby college town of Davis has a bit more James Taylor and Beatles at times; and at other timces, chanteys and madrigals. In Auburn in the mountains on the other side of Sacramento, the music is closer to traditional folk music. I have to say that I'm glad we have Rise Up singing as our "hymnal." It has served us well. And with that, I have another suggestion: the exquisite "Where or When," by Rodgers & Hart. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 97 - 12:37 PM

There used to be an institution known as a 'hootnanny'...we have all seen the word, but not everyone has been to one
In the early 60's, I actually attended sessions which were CALLED 'hootnannies', and they differed from 'song circles' in a couple of significant ways
1. No one HAD enough books to read from...indeed we had very few printed sources, and we knew significantly fewer songs, so we tended to sing from memory, no matter where we had gotten the songs.
2. These sessions were NOT democratic & equal opportunity. The people who knew the most tended to do the most, and newcomers were sort of expected to sing along, learn and add stuff as they developed a repertoire. This is a bit intimidating in some groups, but if you do it this way, you end up really KNOWING some songs and learning how to fit in.

Song circles are nice...they give everyone an opportunity, but they also test the patience of the better and/or more experienced singers- and when the use of RUS and such is the major format, I think they tend to drive away a lot of better singers who simply get bored with reading out of books (and especially the ONE BOOK).
There is no easy solution for this...in a 'hootnanny', the "in group" must work to give the newbies some help & opportunity. (I have been in groups where 3 or 4 people managed to eat up an evening singing back & forth, showing off their repertoire and barely recognizing the existence of anyone who did not know how to 'break in' with that exquisite sense of timing & taste one needs in such a group.(I myself am in the middle area...I know a bunch of songs, but am NOT a recognized guru...I have been in both positions, depending on the composition of the group)

The point of all this is, that total equality and democracy and use of 'bibles' can develop cameraderie & be a lot of 'fun', but does a very limited amount to really teach & educate; while an occasional 'hootnanny' format can open the eyes of the newcomer and give them a sense of what is possible, even though it requires some forbearance to make it work. If the personalities in your groups allow for some of each, and if these issues are openly and honestly discussed, I think the appreciation of folk, folk-like, and other music can be greatly increased

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: suzy
Date: 18 Jul 97 - 03:55 PM

Are there any song circles in Indiana? (I don't suppose so...)

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: ferrara
Date: 19 Jul 97 - 11:53 AM

You didn't say whether your request for suggestions was just an exercise, or whether there's some way to get suggestions to the authors at this late date. Anyway, various country songs come to mind, such as "Jambalaya", "Hey, Good Lookin'," and "Crazy Arms". They're all good songs for group singing.

Hank Williams wrote Hey, Good Lookin' and Jambalaya. They're both in the database. I recently heard who wrote Crazy Arms but immediately forgot. I could dredge up the words if anybody really needed them.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: ferrara
Date: 19 Jul 97 - 11:57 AM

Another suggestion: Shoals of Herring, written by Ewan MacColl. Sung by the Clancy Bros (I think) and many others.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 97 - 05:29 PM

I was thinking of forwarding a list gleaned from this thread, but there hasn't been much response. I will forward whatever we get. If you like, suggestions can be sent direct to Peter and Annie Blood-Patterson, [e-mail]. they request the title, author, source (primary or secondary), and what category you'd put it in.
Another suggestion, one that was suggested in the Fantasy Folk Circle, is "Western Boat," by Otto Kelland, recorded by Stan Rogers and Gordon Bok, listed in the Digital Tradition as "Cape St. Mary's."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Yellow Door Folk Girl
Date: 20 Jul 97 - 03:09 AM

Hi! We use RUS at Mcgill's folk Music club (which meets on Monday nights during the school year for anyone that's interested). Songs we often look for and can't find are: Mari Mack, The Band Played Waltzing Matilda and Closer To Fine (by the Indigo Girls). Also anything by Stan Rogers would be great. I have another suggestion too - get rid of those horrible pictures! I have never met anyone who found them to be an assett to the book! Thanks - YD folk girl

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: ron k
Date: 20 Jul 97 - 10:20 PM

RUS is one of the greatest sources of lyrics and chords that I have ever found, although some of the chords are not exactly the same as I have used. We use the book frequently whenever we sit around a kitchen with our instruments. I have a whole list of suggestions but I will keep them to a few for now.

The Weight - by The Band written by Levon Helm

Dear Abby & Souvenirs - John Prine

(a lot more Prine songs as well)

I'se The B'y - tradional Newfoundland song

more songs by Paul Simon

Wreck of The Edmond Fitzgerald - Lightfoot

Farmer's Song - Murry MacLaughlin

One thing this book has been good at is including variations of the same song such as "Garden Song", "Goodnight Irene", etc. I would like to see more of this in a second volume.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: GATES
Date: 25 Jul 97 - 12:53 PM

RUS is a reference tool, just like the database. Most of us who like and "rely on" the book also are well aware that most of the songs in the book have multiple versions. I've been at many a campfire where no books were used at all and you still have the problem of people trying to sing different versions of the same song all at once because everyone "knows it". I myself will look forward to the new edition - I'm sure I'll add it to my collection.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 97 - 05:48 PM

I hang out at used CD stores and end up with all sorts of treasures other people considered worthless. My most recent "find" was a Gilbert & Sullivan Karaoke CD.
I think it would be grand if RUS would have a few G&S songs. I'd suggest "Buttercup," "We Sail the Ocean Blue," and "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Major General." I love to sing the one about the monarch of the sea and his sisters and his cousins and his aunts, but that one is a bit obscure.
....Oh, and in the name of honesty, I have to admit that my favorite place for singing G&S was at work. A coworker and I would rock the Sacramento Federal Building with "Buttercup." Maybe that's why they make me work out of my home now....
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: RS
Date: 26 Jul 97 - 06:29 PM

To Joe Offer -

In the meantime, you can quench your thirst for Gilbert & Sullivan lyrics at "The Gilbert and Sullivan Archive", at: http://math.idbsu.edu/gas/GaS.html ... quite an extensive collection there.

For example, the Major General can be found at http://math.idbsu.edu/gas/pirates/html/p13.html

Have fun!

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 97 - 03:28 AM

Thanks for the tip, RS. That's one heck of a Gilbert & Sullivan Website! I'd sure like to see some of those songs in the new "Rise Up Singing." I have the scripts for all the G&S shows, and I know a number of the songs by heart; but I need something in a songbook so I can con friends into singing with me.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: ron k
Date: 29 Jul 97 - 10:40 PM

I can't believe we're in a discussion about Gilbert and Sullivan. I have always been a fan of their music but like too many people, I seldom admit it. My favorites are Tarantua and the Paradox Song. Not too hard to see what my favorite operetta is.

It would be great if RUS had a section devoted to musicals and operettas this time around. Some of America's most hummed songs come from that genre. Songs such as "We Got Trouble" from The Music Man, "Oklahoma", "I Am Sixteen" from The Sound of Music. I can go on forever...

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bk
Date: 29 Jul 97 - 11:45 PM

another great thread! i have the first edition - been told there's a newer edition, presumably refined and broadened - i can only assume that this is not what is being discussed, but rather a true "volume II" with another set of songs. I very much feel that it is a great resource, but i can hardly use (or like) their chords!!!, at least in the songs i've tried to learn from there.

The "folk process" allows for a lot of variation; it would certainly allow for not following the exact words of some strict tome. as for easy to sing - many of Tom Paxton's songs come to mind. many more i might think of are already, i believe, in RUS; i would have to read RUS carefully to know any suggestion would not be redundant, and yes, i have searched for songs there and not found them, but i've plum forgotten what they were - will have to work on it. thanks for the e-mail address; will go direct if/when i come up w/something.. cheers

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From:
Date: 31 Jul 97 - 02:04 AM

Some suggestions for RUSser:

Me and Bobby McGee (how did they miss this one?) California Dreamin' (yeah, it'll stink with a big group, but people already insist on singing it) Surfin' USA Fun, Fun, Fun Love Potion Number Nine

Dear Matilda, how I love's ya.... Britain's Motorway Three Score and Ten The Parting Song When First We Met A Sailor's Farewell Windmills The Cliffs of Dooneen

We'll Pass 'em (our songs) On (by Sally Rogers) Wash My Blues Away (Guthrie)

NOT: the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald UGGHHH!

Hey, Yellow Door, I think illustrations are a good idea. I even know a woman who coloured hers in. I find them, if nothing else, a convenient place to put stickers listing my alternate chords, words, whatever.

My only suggestions for format are: -keep the spiral binding and -offer a large print edition -a web site with midi melodies for all the tunes -- perhaps with a reasonable subscription charge? -a site for sending in corrections (no, not version problems, yes, out and out errors) and checking their status (ie, has someone else already noticed this).

In general, I think the WORST bad thing about RUS is that it encourages the singing of songs that NOBODY knows very well. How often have you seen this happen: It's Joe's turn and he can't sing or play, but he'd appreciate it if someone would try leading "Send In the Clowns" on page xxx of RUS. Sally volunteers. ARGHH!!!

Songbooks are great for practice, they're OK for cheat sheets, but please don't think you can play a song from RUS when you haven't even heard that song in fifteen years. There ought to be a law against it!

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 97 - 01:55 AM

I e-mailed a link to this thread to Peter and Annie Blood-Patterson, and they'll be checking here and in the fantasy folk circle. Their deadline for submission to the list of suggested songs to Sing Out! is this Fall. Sing Out! will take care of the project from there. Projected publication date is 1999.
The new book will be almost identical in format to the first volume, but it will probably have an entirely different name. Peter & Annie found it was a lot easier to get rights to songs than they anticipated, so they are thinking of including a lot more popular music in the new book - although folk music will still be prominent. They don't think this book will be as widely used as the other book, because they can't imagine that groups will want to buy several copies of a second book. This book is not supposed to be a "hymnal" - it's intended as a resource for song leaders and performers. Of course, that was the intention of the first book. They had no idea that they would sell as many copies as they did. I don't imagine they'll complain if this book is just as successful.
So, that's what they said, in a nutshelll.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Elsie
Date: 05 Aug 97 - 01:01 PM

"This book is not supposed to be a "hymnal" - it's intended as a resource for song leaders and performers. Of course, that was the intention of the first book."

and the internet was 'intended' as a free, friendly place where the world could come together without commercial interference and share their interests. Many will treat volume 2 of RUS as a new discovery to rival the Dead Sea Scrolls. Oh, well...

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 97 - 04:00 PM

Ah, yes, Elsie. It's a darn shame isn't it. All those musically-illiterate people see that resource book with words and chords, and they dare to sing out of it. They should know the book is meant for professionals, not for commoners such as themselves.
I confess that I have done the same with the Hal Leonard fake books. I sit on a bench with a couple of friends, and we open the book and just sing out of it. I know it's a book for professionals and we shouldn't be doing it, but it's so much fun. I like the "Jazz" book best, but they're all fun.
I dunno, Elsie. I still think it really doesn't matter HOW we sing or WHAT we sing. What's impoortant is THAT we sing. It's something that everybody should do, and it's usually done best when it's done together.
....but I do enjoy squabbling with you....
-Joe Offer, strictly an amateur-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Aug 97 - 10:20 PM

I was going to stay away but. Joe the last time I went to a song circle it was turn to page this & turn to page that & would you like to borrow a copy to read your self, no I'm sorry I came to sing with the rest of you, but I got sung at instead, there was debate as to how the song should be played because it's written here in C #, & could I please keep my voice down when singing sea shanties. I've been to a few different singing circles (not sessions or hoots), & every time it's the same stuff from the same people from the same book from the same station. I have nothing against RUS, it should have a disclaimer (it's not the bible) it's not folk, it's not the only & correct source, it should be titled Fake Book & it should be dedicated to those that spent years collecting music so it wouldn't die from obscurity & read by those that choose to read from it's pages to others & lay low the process of passing on a tradition. It is not the book but the singer, it is not the gun but the shooter & I'm am not the criminal but the victim. When after 2 or 3 yrs the same people sing the same stuff from the same pages, I would think that they should no longer need to look at the written word or would move on to another source or oh no a new & better than new RUs. Here goes another very long rebuttle. Barry

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: steve t
Date: 08 Aug 97 - 02:06 AM

Barry -- RUS isn't the source of that group's problems. That group is. There are always people who hate anything unusual or unexpected. If they couldn't choose from the 1200 songs in RUS, they'd happily be demanding that you only sang one of the 73 standards the group *always* sings.

I've encountered some of the other problems. I was told last month that I was hurting someone's ears. Sweet woman. I have a strong voice and I can do that when someone is too close (in this case about two feet). It's easy to deal with, on really loud songs, you just temporarily reposition yourself so that nobody is directly in front of your voice.

As for your preference for learning songs from other singers and never from books, all I can say is: that sounds about as striaight-jacketed as the fools who only sing from RUS.

How could you get angry at someone for offering to lend you a copy of RUS?!? Have you ever read the introduction? "...change a word. Add a verse...or when three people discover a harmony they never knew existed...a crowd joins in on a chorus as though to raise the ceiling a few feet higher" Them's are quotes from the introduction. Did ya think Pete Seeger would want anything different?

However, from the back cover on an early RUS, "Most people actually know the tunes to hundreds of songs - but who can remember the words?..." I think RUS was definitely intended as a folkie's hymnal. Stress on folkie - someone who doesn't mind changing the hymnal or putting it aside without asking.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 97 - 02:55 AM

Now, Barry, I think I have an obligation to rebut your rebuttal, don't I? I think Steve hit the nail on the head - it's the people who are the problem, not the book.
I've been involved with church choirs all my life, which means I've dealt with a large number of fickle, nasty, self-centered, small-minded people. Sometimes, though, they make very good music. They don't seem to have a very good time doing it, though - and they're rarely able to really inspire the people in the congregation.
About five years ago, I joined a choir that wasn't very good. We still aren't very good, but we put our hearts into our music and we have a good time. The people in the congregation seem to appreciate our spirit, and they forgive us for our lack of musical sophistication. Actually, the people aren't sophisticated enough to know that we aren't, so everything is just fine.
I belong to three song circles in the Sacramento area. Two rely quite heavily on Rise Up Singing, and I have to say those two are the circles that "work." The people are there to be with each other and to have a good time. They put their hearts into the music, and into the spriit of the group. They may not be sophisticated, but everybody enjoys the evening.
The other group is in the nearby university town of Davis. That group has member who are interested in madrigals, chanteys, and Child ballads - but they are tied to their own interests, and not particularly forgiving of others who don't share their interests, or who don't sing their particular type of music correctly. The attendance at Davis isn't very good, and I often leave a Davis evening with a bad feeling. I wonder why.
What I've saying is that, above all, it's the spirit that counts. The method of conducting a song circle is not all that important, and there is no one perfect way to do it. People who isolate themselves from each other can't sing together. People who put their hearts into singing together will create the magic that makes a song circle work.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 97 - 09:39 AM

I have a little card on my wall above my stereo...it says

"I like the RIGHT kind of music...what kind do YOU like"

Isn't it too bad, in this day and age, that not enough people are singing to allow them all to find a group that does it the way they are most comfortable with.

I consider myself very lucky to have spent many years in and around groups with a wide diversity of interests and talents.Even now, in the Washington DC area, there is a great, wonderful variety to be found...though NOTHING like it was 15-20 years ago in many ways (we have all gotten a little older, some great voices have been stilled, and some institutions and individuals have simply disappeared from the scene).I respect song circles of ANY kind and hope even the RUS people keep singing and enjoying, but like Barry, I require something more than that to really be happy. I try not to make it sound elitist, but I do have some minimum standards for my comfort level.

Oh...Barry, if you are ever in the DC area, I can promise you a group of people who will NOT cringe at your volume when singing shanties...and may even match you...*grin*

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Alice
Date: 08 Aug 97 - 02:37 PM

It is interesting how the messages in this thread are beginning to blend with the sentiments of the messages in the Live Music thread. Alice

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 08 Aug 97 - 04:50 PM

Not surprising though Alice, They are the same people.

BTW "Rise Up Singing Two" abbreviates to RUST.

Also, how about a book with a different version of every song in RUS? :-)

TTFN, Bert.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: steve t
Date: 09 Aug 97 - 12:34 AM

RUST never sleeps, eh?

Sorry to Barry if I was too hostile. I'd just come home from an especially depressing song circle. A bunch of instrumentalists who weren't listening to each other enough, let alone the spirit of the songs. Usually they're not quite that self-involved.

Hmmm. How about some suggestions for RUST...

Did She Mention My Name? Don't Fence Me In Things I Walk the Line Shoals of Herring (already mentioned?) Wild Colonial Boy Banks of Scicily Sullivan Son I'll Tell My Ma School Day's Over Bad, Bad Leroy Brown Closer to Fine (already mentioned?) Carrie (Joanie Mitchell) Coming of the Snow Song For a Winter's Night More Christmas songs

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 97 - 03:14 AM

Well, Steve, I just came from a very GOOD song circle. I've been listening to comments here about overuse of Rise Up Singing, and trying to introduce a few new songs, and encouraging people to look at each other at least while they're singing the chorus. It certainly adds life to the circle when people look at each other.
....and I couldn't help notice the pretty blonde sitting across from me, once I took off my reading glasses and got her in focus.
I'd say my song circle could have some fun with the songs you mentioned. Hope your next circle goes better.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From:
Date: 09 Aug 97 - 03:59 AM

Joe, if you will e-mail me directly with a snail I will be happy to send you a copy of the Newfoundland song book I have. No breach of copyright as it was meant in 1955 to be for free distribution. It has the music too.

I have other song books, of course, but it just so happens that I have a lot of photcopies of this particular one.

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: jeff s
Date: 12 Aug 97 - 08:51 PM

So, are there any plans for a set of teaching tapes?

jeff s

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Bary Finn
Date: 12 Aug 97 - 09:49 PM

Steve, don't worry you're not being harsh, this is a construction site & positive things are happening. Joe, I never said it's the book, I did say it's the shooter & not the gun. It's the way alot of people put the book to use. RUS is a cash cow & if it's rebirth is to cause the milk & honey to flow then the reciepents should bare some responsibilty for it's direction or at least shed some awareness on the subject that their cashing in on. I used to travel often in my younger days & did go to quite a bit of singing & music sessions. If books were brought they were mostly used as a reference, not 1 book like in a 2nd grade class but a variety of song books & they'd share those. The last sessions I've been to were in San Fancisco & Boston. Boston it's all according to the bible & they'll never attract outsiders, visitors or those who desire more than the odd 50 they sing. In S.F. I'm told it's been abandoned to the RUS bible thumpers (I thought it was just a local problem at first). These are both large metro areas that are known for their support of folk music. I remember yrs ago calling people in different parts far off to find out where & when some singing would be & people passing through would be asking the same, it seems as if the thrill is gone, and it's not just these 2 areas. I don't mind changing my seat so I don't disturb someone who's sleeping but I do mind being asked to sing in a way I don't, because it's not what their used to or it's being done in a way that's not according to the Act. I don't get to sing much anymore (except at Irish sessions), & if I do get a chance to travel again I would like to visit some of these sessions, to remind me of begone days that hopefully are as much fun as they once were. Barry

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Aug 97 - 10:19 PM

Jeff, Peter and Annie Blood-Patterson are responsible only for the preparation of a suggested list of songs for the new "Rise Up Singing." Sing Out! Magazine has control of everything after that, and the Blood-Pattersons did not know whether there will be teaching tapes or not.
Now, Barry, I'm all for outlawing guns, but to outlaw "Rise Up Singing" is going way too far. Please reconsider.
Barry, was the San Francisco song circle the one Faith Petric is active in? I can't picture Faith sticking to a songbook. She's a wonderful performer. Every song she sings is like a treasure she wants to share with her audience.
But I have to say that "Rise Up Singing" has actually broadened the number of songs I can use for group singing. It used to be that if I wanted people to sing, I had to always choose very simple songs, mostly songs with a chorus and lots of verses that I could sing in between. With a songbook, a group can sing entire songs. the trick is to have people planted in the group who are interested in keeping the music fresh. If the circle makes sure that a few new songs are introduced every session, the group remains lively.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 12 Aug 97 - 11:54 PM

RUS is really not that much different, as a fake book, than, say, Jerry Silverman's _Folk Song Encyclopedia_, except that it is easily available in multiple copies at popular prices. The disadvantage of this is that EVERYBODY has ALL the words to all the same songs. If people had to rely on their ears to get the choruses (and just lisen to the verses), they'd train their ears and their minds to learn folk music aurally. And aural transmission is what makes "folk singing" a folk tradition (as opposed to singing a song that once belonged to the category of folk). I'd say the problem isn't that there are copies of word books like RUS around, but that everyone has the same edition of the same book. If everyone had a different book, people would rely on listening to each other and interact, resolving (as musicians do) all the subtle and not-so-subtle variances that would occur, rather than simply reading blithely off a page that they know everyone else has an identical copy of.

So my problem isn't that RUS exists, but that multiple copies are being relied on simultaneously, whereas only the person leading the song really needs access to all words.

By the way, I often use word-books to find songs, but rarely RUS. (I'm extremely fortunate to have access to a library of hundreds of tune-books.)

--Charlie Baum from the folk shtetl of Silver Spring, MD

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Aug 97 - 09:51 PM

Thanks Charlie, nicely said. Joe, of course I don't think RUS should be outlawed but I do feel as if I've been shot a couple of times by a book. It is the same session althought I don't know if Faith still has a hand in it, it's been 10 yrs. since I was there, but 2 yrs ago while discussing this topic at a festival with an old regular of that session I was saddened to hear of the group's direction. Barry

Subject: RE: Suggestions for Rise Up Singing II
From: Laosie, Belfast
Date: 14 Aug 97 - 07:59 AM

This discussion about how groups of amateur singers get up and sing straight out of this Rise Up Singing book (a copy of which I have never seen but I am familiar with books of that genre)reminds me of a singing session I used to go to. There was this tall thin fellow with a long straggly beard and who clasped a ringbound folder. As soon as a song or tune was over he would stand up and start singing one of his songs. We used to call him (excuse the language) Simon Strangleballs for that is exactly what you would imagine he was suffering from when he was singing. There were a lot of great characters at those sessions. Only a few were good singers but fair play to the rest of them, some of them were far more entertaining.

Please forgive me Simon if you're reading this.

Laoise.