BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM

Never saw this article before but it has most of my info in it so it proves I'm not bullshitting anyone."

Sorry, but no. The "article" doesn't prove jack$hit.

"Exploring The North Inc." is a website design company, fer chrissake. No knowledge or expertise in the points under discussion. Their "article" cites no sources.

The "dayooper" page- posted by the owher of a rock shop & metaldetector site also with ostensibly no credentials, cites articles from the 1880's and nothing more recent than 1915- long before modern archaeology & modern investigative methods.

Bullshit pure & simple, embraced by the fundagelical and the feeble-minded.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Interesting that the copper sources in the UK have not been worked out in ancient times - North Wales for example. also interesting that there have not been shipwrecked ingots found on any route from the New World to the Old, whereas the Old World has a lot of such ingots, so loss in transit was quite common.

And who makes sun dried clay plates and expects them to last in use?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

josepp reminds me of Lizzie whatsername, the Cornish binge poster, only on larger scale, in fact maybeee !!!

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:28 PM

And if you want to get into all the menhirs and huge stone astronomical observatories of ages lost to modern memory, well, they're still standing because they were built so well. No doubt many skeptoids wish they had crumbled to dust long ago so they could deny their existence but no such luck.

Then there's the Trilithon at Baalbek, Lebanon. The largest dressed stones anywhere on earth weighing up to 1200 tons! Who quarried them, relocated them and stacked them together so tight you can't slip a need between them and there's no mortar holding them together?

We don't know because we have no idea who built it or even when. The Trilithon has been there at least 5000 years but probably far longer. It was already ancient when the ancient Romans built temples on it. That's how huge it is. According to the Arabs, it was always there.

Here we see the Trilithon. Look very closely at the bottom of the photo and notice the man standing there. That's how big these stones are. Ever odder, the big long ones are resting on shorter, smaller ones without crushing them despite weighing a minimum of 800 tons! And the design is so good, it has stood for thousands of years. But then I'm sure the Smithsonian would tell us it's impossible and therefore doesn't exist--end of story.

The Trilithon

The largest stone of all was never removed from the quarry. It has remained where the builders left it sitting thousands of years ago. Think of that:
The Stone of the South

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM

Or Newgrange, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:56 PM

I first learned of the copper pits in high school when I took Michigan History. It's part of the curriculum to teach us about the copper pits and mysterious miners. I was always intrigued by it.

Never saw this article before but it has most of my info in it so it proves I'm not bullshitting anyone.

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cophistory/cophist.html


This one's worth a look:
http://www.dayooper.com/CopperCulture.htm

The Bronze Age is a period in Western European history typified by the usage of… bronze. The Bronze Age may be a term used daily in schools across the world, but there is one major issue that is seldom debated: where did the required components, tin and copper, originate from?
Indeed, though it is undoubtedly the case that Europe had a "Bronze Age", archaeologists have accepted that much more copper was used than what they have been able to attribute to European mines. So where did an extremely large part of the copper come from? The answer, as bizarre as it may sound, could be America. It is known that during the European Bronze Age, large quantities of copper were mined in North America. However, no-one is able to answer as to what became of the copper that was mined there.
If we were to add the two problems together, do we have the solution? Of course, the answer for the accepted scientific dogma is "no", as it argues that there were no transoceanic contacts in the Bronze Age, and hence copper could not have been traded from the New to the Old World. But perhaps there is sufficient scientific evidence available that will alter the assumptions of the scientists.
--http://www.philipcoppens.com/copper.html

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM

Check out the Woodhenge at Cahokia Mounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM

As far as the Anasazi, it was funny that researchers who had been up on the Fajada Butte said the sun casts specific shafts of light on the spiral engraved in the rock. The learned professors and scientists at the universities said no way. Impossible. They couldn't have had the technology or knowledge. Just seeing what you want to see--grow up!

And what happened? It was proven that the spiral was an astronomical meter for reading the solstices, the equinoxes as well as the major and minor lunar standstills and true full moon that only happens once every 19 years or so. In fact, it was only ancient astronomical device that calculated the movements of the sun and moon both.

If the so-called intelligentsia had their way, we never would have discovered the Anasazi sun-dagger. But, as Greg F says, who we to question the Great Smart Ones whose knowledge is pure and incorruptible? Who have no agenda and no biases? They've NEVER been wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:54 PM

Oh, check out Cahokia Mounds, and the culture up and down the Illinois River, especially around Kampsville, Illinois. Also the Serpent Mound and related mounds in Ohio and the animal mounds in Wisconsin. There are mounds in Arkansas (big bunch down there) and clear to the Gulf. There is considerable evidence that a healthy trade existed between the "Anasazi", the peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Plains people, the Mississippian culture, and the Woodland cultures of the Eastern US. Evidence includes, but is not limited to, cowrie shells and copper.

If you want to investigate something, look into the similarities between the Clovis points and those found in Neolithic France -- and the Western Shore of Maryland.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM

"...the bulk of the copper must have gone overseas..."

"...there are archaeologists who claim Lake Superior copper can be found in tools and artifacts from all over the ancient world..."

My...what interesting assumption are embedded in those remarks. Saying "the bulk MUST have" assumes it was not only 'mined' but used...

And there are archaeologists who claim almost anything when confronted with a strange set of 'data'.

Archeology is an area with a high amount of competition to discover new finds....yet this Michigan stuff seems to have been barely investigated.

It seems to me that the question "...why did these mysterious copper miners leave behind no traces whatsoever of their culture other than the tools they used to mine?" can have a number of possible answers...including that there WAS no serious 'culture' doing real 'mining'.

It will be interesting to see what develops once pure speculation wears thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:29 PM

They were examined by an Illinois attorney named Henrietta Mertz who cataloged the pieces. The Smithsonian fired off charges of fraud.

Well, I for one would certainly take the word of a person with no education, training, or expertise in the field over that of the dumb bastards at the Smithsonian.

The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds.

You are obviously out of your fu$king mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:55 PM

Apologies for saying "minded" when I mean "mined."

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

As for the copper miners. They minded about 1.5 billion pounds of it starting around 5000 BCE. They opened thousands of pits across upper Michigan. The level of mining sophistication would have required 10,000 men to spend about 1000 years developing that technology. Lake Superior copper had turns up in old Indian implements from Michigan to South America but still the bulk of the copper must have gone overseas simply because there is no trace of it in the Americas. Indeed, there are archaeologists who claim Lake Superior copper can be found in tools and artifacts from all over the ancient world well before the Common Era. Who transported it, whereand how?

Even stranger, why did these mysterious copper miners leave behind no traces whatsoever of their culture other than the tools they used to mine? No petroglyphs or rock art, pottery, figurines, hunting implements, dwellings or burial mounds have ever been found. Only their stone mauls and copper axes used to chip out ore and separate it from the copper have been found along with copper knives, arrowheads and spearheads.

Moreover, they appear to have dropped their tools and walked off the face of the earth. Their mauls are found at mining pits left as though the miners had set them down and gone home (wherever their homes were) for the day, ready to resume work in the morning but that morning did not come. No one knows why or even when this happened although it would seem that 1200 BCE would be the cut-off point.

Who were they and where did they go all the sudden?

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:51 PM

two mounds fivr cents

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM

One estimate is that Michigan was once home to tens of thousands of mounds. Mounds were so prevalent in the state once that the very road that my workplace is located on is called Mound Road for that reason. Few, if any, remain today having been plowed under and built over.

Normally, when we talk about burial mounds and such, we picture Indians. But should we? Who built the mounds of Michigan? The truth is, we don't know. Even the local Indian legends say the mounds existed when the first Indians arrived. They further state that the moun-builders were an "evil people" called Yam-Ko-Desh or "prairie people" and that they also minded copper. Archaeological evidence, however, turns up no connection to the copper pits or Upper Michigan and mounds. So now we have two mysteries: Who built the mounds and who mined the copper?

By the 1880s, farmers were digging up mounds constantly and finding very strange things. According to reports, there were cups, vases, knife-blades, "caskets," etc. The strangest of them were the copper and shale plates. The numbered into the thousands. They were examined by an Illinois attorney named Henrietta Mertz who cataloged the pieces. The Smithsonian fired off charges of fraud. The objects can't be real, they said. But Mertz, hired because of her expertise in detecting fraud, could find nothing fraudulent in them.

The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds. So, this is either a huge fraud or one of the most significant archaeological finds ever. The sad thing is, hoax or not, they need to be studied and evaluated on the basis of that study--not on what science finds convenient to spout off about. Yet, science has shown so little interest that over half of this collection has been lost due to the fragile nature of the artifacts, most of which are sun-baked clay. Many have crumbled or been shattered due to carelessness and inexperience. These things unearthed by people all across the state. It would be impossible for anyone to have faked these and then put them in the ground for others to find.

People were tearing into mounds wherever they could find them. Only one in ten had anything in them but the yield was still a rich one. But science still insists they have to be fakes. Well, maybe they are. But what if they aren't? There are 13-month lunar calendars depicted here, for exmple. Certainly not impossible to fake but pretty imaginative and not without some good artistic skills. These artifacts need to be preserved and studied seriously and systematically. If they are real, we will need to radically modify our views of history. If they are fake, then at least we'll know:

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/09c2c9b0720f3ef904adc033763986cc.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/82f1b4b8b9da6cbcab5733ce6380de7a.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/74780392244123170ce8c4729b8b96eb.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/cf57eacd0fffa9f4691328cd840af609.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/8e80cdf4e81751793942a48fffc09a5a.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/517fc4fdd40cfcc574227cbddc520d97.png

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics1.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics3.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics7.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics4.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics8.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics9.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics10.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics12.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics13.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics14.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics15.jpg

Professor W.B. Hinsdale of the University of Michigan surveyed some of the mounds in 1925 and came across this skull fragment which was printed in the Detroit News. It dates from before the Common Era. The hole is not ragged or jagged. The area around the hole is pristine. The hole is neatly cut. Who did this, how and why?

http://info.detnews.com/dn/history/mounds/images/3.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM

You won't look!

I am am decimated!!

Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:52 PM

S'matter- dontcha know how to cut & paste? Or are you just lazy?

Unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:40 PM

Sorry, I was home for lunch but didn't have much time to hang around so that should have said "scientific."

JtS use the clicky function or I won't look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 04:18 PM

Click here
----------Link fixed. JoeClone------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Ether

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM

What were they smokin JtS?

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

Scientific Hareraces

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

So it isn't a heresy at all, it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation of perfectly reasonable evidence and absolutely nothing whatever to do with anything resembling Atlantis, except that it is a sunken landscape. No people. No temples. No imagined history.

Peer reviewed and all.

If it's boring here, why be here?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:05 PM

What does ' scientic ' mean ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: GUEST,Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM

I'd be more impressed if it wasn't 56,000,000 years old.

Subject: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

More follow on this thread but this will do for now. Things just getting TOO boring around here.

http://news.yahoo.com/lost-world-atlantis-landscape-discovered-170805677.html