BS: Too obese to execute

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 01:04 AM

Raedwulf & CET ~~ No good pointing out these facts to someone like poor old Muskyboos, who is clearly one of those whose watchword is

"My mind is made up: do not confuse me with facts".

I noticed on another thread that he has a doctorate. Wonder what in. Presumably called a Doctorate of Philosophy from some institute somewhere that passes as a university [ie these days, about every 3rd building in the realm]; but I have rarely come across anyone so incapable of grasping the most elementary elements of any concept of philosophy in any sense.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:59 PM

No, Leonard Peltier was not found guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. He was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, the same as every one else who has ever been found guilty of anything, whether it's tax evasion or murder. I don't know anything about the case beyond the name, so I'm not saying it wasn't a righteous conviction, but enough of this bullshit that there is something in law "called beyond the shadow of a doubt."

Yes, in logical terms there are some murderers for whom there really is no doubt. Anders Breivik is the most notorious one in the last couple of years. If Norway had the death penalty, they could hang him in absolute certainty that they had the right man. Unfortunately, the law has no way of separating Breivik and ilk from the ones who later turn out to be innocent.

And no Musket, capital punishment is not and never was murder. Murder is unlawful killing. Murder is a legal term, not a moral one. Capital punishment is morally wrong, but it is not murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:09 PM

Raedwulf.... please don't leave FOR GOOD. You are one of the few that offers logical arguements for discussion and provides logical and factual discussions of other poster's arguements. As far as the "fuck you" goes, I know how you feel. Fact is, I get BEYOND upset when someone puts words in my mouth. And, many times I post "gnightgnu" but I always reserve the right to rejoin the thread, especially if someone addresses me or my posts after I leave.

Unfortunate that many posters stray from what is actually posted... even in THEIR posts.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot... re Leonard Peltier, he is enduring cruel and not so unusual punishment. Found guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt (an officer he shot IDd him as the shooter on his death bed), he was sentenced to life in prison (2 counts) and I think he should have been hanged because apparently he doesn't like being in prison. It IS cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM

"It's abusive and unpleasant" - so was his personal attack on me, Eliza, which is why I decided I couldn't be bothered to play nice any more. Oh, and his response was more or less what I expected. Patronising, ignorant, smugly self-satisified. "you cannot be perceived as...", no, YOU, Musket, are incapable of perceiving... As I've already told you, you know nothing whatsoever about me or my politics. But it doesn't stop you sneering, trying to stick a label on, & committing ad hominem so that you can dismiss without actually having to take the trouble to make a real argument (something I suspect you are incapable of doing anyway).

"As capital punishment is not legal in The UK, carrying it out would fit the penal code definition of murder. Not even MTheMG and his (on this subject) weird logic could change my view on that statement." You really are a chump. If capital punishment was legal it wouldn't be murder, would it? It'd be capital punishment. Since it isn't legal, it doesn't happen. Talk about stupid, self-serving, circular argument. Not bothering to respond to you any more because you're evidently only interested in your own point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 05:57 PM

As the person this is replying to is not reading my posts I suggest instead of reading the following, you get a beer instead.

Murder is murder. Killing someone either haunts your conscience forever or you have a personality disorder.

I live in a country that recognises this. Has done for almost 50 years.

State approved murder is still murder and was when our law allowed hanging. The definition of murder never gave a waiver for execution, but judges, governors and hangmen were licenced in effect to kill. It was still fucking murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:47 PM

Bill D asked "The question is, do we prevent this ONLY by banning all executions, or is there some way to allow it in cases where there is NO doubt, as in mass murder on video, or with multiple witnesses and a confession?... (Batman shootings in theater.)"

The answer is "no". As I tried to explain in an earlier post, there are guilty findings and not guilty findings. There is nothing else. Using the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and there is no other standard, the courts in democratic countries like Canada, the U.S, and Britain get it right most of the time. But not all the time, and the mistakes are not as infrequent as we would all like to believe. I respect those, like Eliza, who have a moral revulsion to capital punishment. I share that revulsion, too, in most cases, but there are some murderers whom I hardly recognize as being human. For example, if Canada still had the death penalty, I simply would not have it in me to feel any regret at removing Russell Williams, who , once held the same commission that I do, from this world. However, I would still hate the death penalty and would do everything I could to abolish it.

The price of being able to kill people like Russell Williams is the execution of innocent people like Guy-Paul Morin and Timothy Evans. You cannot have one without the other. In Guy-Paul Morin's case, there was no death penalty and he lived to be exonerated. Tim Evans was not so lucky.

Sometimes pro-death penalty advocates are proud to say that they could pull the lever on (insert name of vile murderer here). And maybe they honestly believe that. That is not the real question, though. The question they ought to ask themselves is "Could I pull the lever on this killer, and then could I go on to pull the lever on all the other convicted killers, knowing for an absolute certainty that some of them will be innocent?"

Raedwulf's views are interesting, since he seems to be one of the extraordinarily rare people who accept that wrongful executions are a product of régimes that allow the death penalty, but still support capital punishment. Mostly, pro-death penalty opinion doesn't get beyond "everybody knows the fucker did it and he deserves to die".

Raedwulf's views would not have been unusual a generation or two ago. Now, after so many wrongful convictions over so many years, I don't understand how anybody continues to think that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:36 PM

As capital punishment is not legal in The UK, carrying it out would fit the penal code definition of murder.···
.,,.
What a strange piece of logic in relation to your previous statements. If it were again made legal, would you then cease this idiotic locution of yours? I suspect not ~~ you seem to apply it without reservation to any place where the practice of cap-pun persists.

You are foolish and your arguments frivolous ~~ lartgely because you are semantically ineffectual, like HumptyDumpty.

Another of my favourite literary references:- In Jane Austen's Sense & Sensibility, Elinor Dashwood, faced by the fatuities of Mr Ferrars the Elder, 'made no reply as she did not consider him to deserve the compliment of rational opposition'. I believe you, Musket, to have demonstrated yourself to be too stupid to deserve the compliment of rational opposition, so I have said my last words to you. Bluster all you will in return; I shall read no more of your posts.

Adieu.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

No place for speaking in favour of murder from where I am slowly slumping

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:22 PM

No place is the place for that sort of invective.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:18 PM

Your views, unless you are talking to yourself are how they are perceived. As you have stated your support for state murder, you cannot be perceived as left of centre. Right wing reactionary maybe. But never left of centre. I perceive myself as living there yet some on this bullshit section of Mudcat reckon I am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist. It's how you are perceived that counts. As I retire to my counting house to count my money, I walk and wonder if they have a point?

Maybe they do. Too minted to give a shit. Which is why you too should have a drink and not get so het up when your appalling comments are commented upon as if were.

If you don't want to be compared to those whom share your views, perhaps you shouldn't express them.

I love winding people up but on this subject I have views that are polarised and embedded.

As capital punishment is not legal in The UK, carrying it out would fit the penal code definition of murder. Not even MTheMG and his (on this subject) weird logic could change my view on that statement.

I don't have his Lewis Carroll approach as he reckons I have, I use UK definitions.

Shooting the messenger isn't the best way to debate. And neither is the wonderful name calling. Any more in your head? Hopefully the elves will let you get them out of you system. I may even have a giggle myself.

(I reckon I am God's gift to women but others may percieve otherwise. A big like thinking you are left of centre, when defending the more odious right wing views.)

By heck, this Pinot is as good as any I have had. It's all about perspective really. Happy enough to wind up idiots or shallow enough to get upset by pretend people on a pretend Internet.

Zzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM

Raedwulf, Michael and I differ on this particular subject, but nonetheless I feel I must object to your choice of language and vituperative attack on him in your last post. 'F*** you, you narrow-minded, patronising prig...' is not the way to disagree with someone. It's abusive and unpleasant, and completely uncalled-for, as was your dismissal of my argument as 'absolute bollocks'. I don't think Mudcat is the place for this sort of invective.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM

Well, I was going to say you're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but "If you live in The UK and support the death penalty you are someone I have contempt for" & all the rest of it.

Fuck you, you narrow-minded, patronising prig. You're an asshole. You make shallow, facile judgements, knowing nothing about my politics, most of which are left of centre. I don't deal in contempt, but I now have no respect either for you personally, or for your ability to construct a rational argument because, basically, all you can do is stick your fingers in your ears & yell your own opinions as though they were incontrovertible fact. Which they ain't. Muppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:49 AM

And do please not that our disagreement is neither moral nor legalistic ~~ I am unsure where I stand on cap-pun and have no dogmatic views on it ~~ but purely semantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:46 AM

I call it nothing of the sort, Musket. Whence you get that? And what do you mean by 'unwittingly', precisely?

Impugn my intellect all you like: my withers will remain unwrung. In such cases one just leaves it to fellow-catters to judge the 'intellectual' battle.

It's a free country; so you can call things what you like, but it doesn't turn them into what they are not. If you want to call a Cadbury's Fruit & Nut Bar a Big·Mac, there is no rule to stop you; but it won't taste any different. And you can likewise call judicial capital punishment 'murder' until you are blue in the face; but that won't transform it into murder in any meaningful (as distinct from tendentiously emotive) sense whatever, to anyone but your goodself.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:29 AM

Hello Sailor!

It is murder if the state sanctions it. We are not speaking of less civilised ex colonies here, we have gravitated in the debate to apply it to those countries advanced enough to have laws that stand the test of decent civilisation. Mudcat is an international site so it is relevant for us all to see how such debates pan out in each other's structures.

So you may have settled it in those states that are still playing catch up with the more mature ones, but the mini debate within the debate here is about 1st world countries, i.e., those that do not murder their citizens by judicial means.

Anyway, if you wish to use dictionary terms, OED please, and then edits since The UK matured and stop killing its citizens "legally." Your man Webster is someone our scholars use as a case study in how to abuse status by what MtheGm unwittingly calls the Lewis Carroll method.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Arkie
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 09:54 AM

Sounds like the prison officials are trying to bloat him to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM

>>>By the way, Lizzie, if you "find the American Justice System to be one of the most vile in the world," then I'd say you haven't been around much.<<<

First of all, ask Leonard Peltier about the American Justice System..and then, read my words in a more pedantic manner and see if you can spot the words 'one of' whilst figuring out the meaning...

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:11 AM

murder

noun
1.
Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

There you go, argument settled. It is not murder unless the law says it is. State sanctioned execution is not murder. I am not saying that it is moral or right. But it is not murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 07:42 AM

Yes, I have.

Murder is the taking of a life without consent, premeditated as opposed to by accident. Most civilised laws go on to say that they cannot see where such consent could ever be given, ergo if the UK government sanctioned a kill, as fans of James Bond may wonder if we ever do, it would be murder. Military actions by rules of engagement specify where taking of lives to save lives can be justified, but coroner reports on soldiers still call "killed in action" an act of homicide.

I don't choose to use that term, although I am sure a legal sparrow such as Bridge would put a bit of polish on the interpretation. As we do not have the death penalty, I can sit at my keyboard in The UK and say that state execution is murder because where I sit it is. And where my moral compass ever sits, it still is.

Just because a state defines what murder is doesn't alter its obligation to not commit it. After all, in democracies, governments are often taken to either court or judicial review over breaking their own laws.

Come on, MtheGM. I haven't hitherto spoken of deficiencies in your intellect, despite the mounting evidence in your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM

'Murder is murder and being state sanctioned does not make any difference...I reckon I may have just about put my point over?'
.,,.
Yes indeed ~~ the point that you are a Humpty Dumpty: "When I use a word, it means what I choose it to mean" (Through the Looking Glass).

"Murder" is a LEGAL CONSTRUCT & CONCEPT. It has a precise meaning in law: a fact which all your twisting and turning and equivocating will not alter one jot. If you imagine it does so, to your own satisfaction in your own mind, then we are back at the question of the deficiencies in your intellect again.

Now load that in your musket and shoot it; or put it in your intellect and ponder it...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 04:41 AM

Having had a think, and even used my "intellect" as it has just been called, I stand by everything I said.

Murder is murder and being state sanctioned does not make any difference.

If you live in The UK and support the death penalty you are someone I have contempt for. Perhaps you may wish to correspond with Norman Tebbit and Richard Littlejohn. One has such views and the other is paid to have them. You'll get on fine. Perhaps get Anne Widdecombe to put the kettle on whilst you dream of weighing sacks, rope oil and final visits by the condemned's innocent family.

And then perhaps set up a party to get elected on your sensationalist issue. You may even be able to draw a few members from mainstream right wing unelectable parties. You at least wouldn't need to pay G4 to protect you at your conferences as you would have enough skin heads in your party to provide it in house.

I reckon I may have just about put my point over?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:23 AM

"there are situations where we might want someone dead it's for civilized people to "just say no"..."
Bobert, 2 posts back
.,,.,..,
This emotive use of the word 'civilised' constantly crops up on all the [many] threads on this topic. As I have remarked here before, it is unfairly used with the utmost tendentiousness.

'Civilisation' as a concept goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Mesapotamians in the Western World, to ancient India, China, Japan, &c, farther east. Capital punishment in some form was part of every one of these societies: its justice and probity were not even questioned till extremely recently [late C19 at earliest]. So are users of this word in this emotive and tendentious fashion really denouncing the Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, Chinese [cont p 94] as uncivilised?

Don't be so silly.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 11:21 PM

By the way, Lizzie, if you "find the American Justice System to be one of the most vile in the world," then I'd say you haven't been around much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:41 PM

Yup. there are situations where we might want someone dead it's for civilized people to "just say no"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:35 PM

I'm very much in favor of not executing people, Bobert. I think it's extremely unwise to give any government the legal authority to kill people they are holding as prisoners. It's too easy to abuse such authority, it's too easy to make mistakes, and it's a wrongful thing to do anyway in the first place.

(There are certain situations that push our buttons...where we want to see someone killed over something. That feeling can come over anyone in some particular situation. It's an individual emotional reaction. I don't think it's the proper business of a government to act as the agent to satisfy that kind of gut emotional reaction in people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:11 PM

How about, "don't execute"???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 08:57 PM

How about "too stupid to execute"? We could have a whole new thread just about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM

Raedwulf... eloquence and logic. Even tho you are not the only such poster, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Raedwulf
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 03:59 PM

"Sorry, but the American Justice System DOES stink, mainly BECAUSE it is NOT ONE SYSTEM!"

So, in essence, there isn't an American Justice System. In which case, A) why refer to one, B) wouldn't not referring to one make your argument more focused, and also less likely to draw gratuitously annoyed, and irrelevant, responses? Just a thought... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 03:00 PM

As to the individual referred to initially: It's just as well he wasn't scheduled for the electric chair. They would have had to put something around him to keep the fat from sizzling aand spattering all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 01:22 PM

"Your all-too-frequent blanket condemnations of whole groups of people for the offenses of a few grow tiresome, display your ignorance of that which you condemn, and are the hallmark of the bigot."


Oh, feck, Don...

Your pedantics drive me nuts...

Sorry, but the American Justice System DOES stink, mainly BECAUSE it is NOT ONE SYSTEM! Therefore, it is WIDE open to terrible abuse, which happens, a LOT.

I'm well aware that different states have different systems, good gawd, I've been following the care of Leonard Peltier for ages!

I mean WHAT kind of country has different rules in different places for heaven's sake!

America wants to wake up and wake up it's Justice System too...

And sorry, but those who think that a man being in prison for near on 30 years, under threat of death throughout that time, isn't punishment enough, wanting to seemingly bay for more, the 'more' being his death, have more cruelty in their soul than perhaps they're aware of.

If there is 100% proof that someone has killed someone, as in murdered, then I can understand harsh penalties being brought in, but there are many different types of and reasons for murder, so the death penalty wouldn't fit all.

I most definitely think the mass murderer of Norway should no longer be on the planet, for a start...

Bigots R Us surround me, Don, but I am have no inhaled their Foul Breath or Black Souls....

I have no respect for the U.S. Justice System...nor for the FBI, whlist we're on the subject....

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,CupOfTea with no cookies
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM

One has to wonder if their reticence to try to execute this guy by injection is partially due to the amount of pentobarbital they'd have to use. Recent reports are that their supply is running low, and the pharmaceutical company refuses to provide any more for executions.

I've followed several death row last minute stays & reversals from following Ohio anti-death penalty friends and associates & reporting their news. It's scary to hear how some of the death row residents have been wrongly accused and convicted - not "just technicalities" but serious breaches of due process, seemingly willful. Part of my background has me saying "hang the guilty!!!!" but I'm seeing how easy it is for the innocent to be found guilty, particularly if poor.

As a poor Ohioan, I believe my chances of being found guilty of something I didn't do much higher than a rich Republican's chances. I can't come to lobby against the death penalty entirely, while willingly lobbying against it in SPECIFIC cases. I suppose that makes me wishy-washy in some views, but what else happens when you re-assess an opinion or your opinion evolves?

Joanne in Cleveland (so far only guilty in housing court for having a big dead tree in the yard)

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Raedwulf
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 12:34 PM

Eliza - it is not your opinion, it is your argument. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine! But your argument is bad.

Musket. Well, I could just tell you to piss off too, couldn't I? Since I'm English, where exactly do you expect me to piss off to? This is my country too. On the other hand, maybe you'll read M's post & be a bit less careless in your reading in future. Murder is never justified. I don't regard state-sanctioned execution as murder, if the system is properly designed. Which I already more-or-less said. So you can... ;-)

As to the question of deterrence, I maintain my previous stance. It IS *ALWAYS* lugged into any argument about crime & punishment. It doesn't matter whether the debate is about murder or shoplifting. Someone will ALWAYS bring it up. It is an entirely false qunatity. The question for the justice system and for the court and for the judge & jury is not "How do we stop people arriving here". That is a question for society and for government. The question is "What do we do with the ones that end up here?" That is a matter of punishment, gentle or otherwise. Deterrence is an irrelevance. Being gratuitously flippant, the re-offending rate after CP IS zero... ;-)

Jack - Yes, I would be willing. I wouldn't regard it as stooping. I would regard it as unpleasant and necessary. And, I had this argument with my dear old (dead) dad a long time back, if I were wrongly on the wrong end of a death penalty, I would go to the gallows / chair / whatever crying my innocence. But I still wouldn't argue that CP was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:55 AM

Are you a vegetarian, SJ? If not, would you slaughter your own animals? Or would you work as a prison officer supervising the confinement of those you are so cheerfully willing to lock up for the rest of their lives?

Or are you a pacifist? Have you ever had to do any form of military service? If too young, think yourself lucky. It was very boring. But, if you had been required, would you have tried to get out of it in case of being expected to fight at some stage?

Your argument is fatuous. People have their own jobs to do. What suits one will not suit another. You are being as stupidly disingenuous as old Musket above.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Stu
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 08:54 AM

One assumes that to support the death penalty, you would be willing to carry it out yourself (if you wouldn't, then that suggests a fundamental lack of integrity). If that is the case, whether the state sanctions the killing or not at the end of the day you would have to knowingly, in cold blood, kill another human being.

You might be able carry such an action out, I don't know. In all honesty, I would not stoop to killing another human being in such a fashion. After all, what makes the executioner different from the person they're executing? A seal and a squiggle on a bit of paper from some judge who will never have to kill that person themselves? Are you that easily persuaded? Or is it intent - it's OK to kill someone of the intention is to punish them (providing you have the seal and squiggle). Sounds more than a tad uncivilised to me.

Or perhaps the best way forward is not to stoop so low as to kill some of the people who have wronged us, but lock them up for the rest of their lives. That way they are being punished, if there is doubt, mistakes or corruption in the case they won't be dead when this is discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM

Raedwolf said nothing about murder being justified, Musket. If you think judicial execution, whatever one may think of its ethics or its effectiveness, is to be morally equated with the criminal offence of murder, then you are, to put this as politely as possible, disingenuous and misguided. I do not consider Eliza's objections to be in any way deficient; but I consider your position unworthy of what I presume you to regard as your intellect.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:23 AM

Raedwolf. If you are British, the penal system you are a stakeholder in is deterrent, rehabilitation and protecting society from dangerous people. The punishment is itself an equal factor. There are no side effects.

If you feel murder is justified, I suggest you piss off to a country where such views are tolerated? Be careful, even those countries occasionally examine their conscience.

On a lighter note, if you can be too obese to execute, The USA will abolish it through stealth eventually. Keep chomping the hamburgers and aerosols of cheese guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 05:10 AM

Raedwolf, I'm sorry you find my opinion 'absolute bollocks'. And no, I would definitely not support the re-introduction of the death penalty in UK. Kindest regards, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Stu
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Raedwulf
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 04:24 AM

"He asked me, "Now, in all sincerity, would YOU push that lever?" And I had to admit I couldn't have done so. He asked me why not, and it was because to take a life like that in cold blood seemed so obviously wrong. I have to add that the last British Executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, in his autobiography, came to the same conclusion, that hanging was no deterrent, that it was pointless and wrong, and he had no regrets that it had been abolished."

1) Yes I would. 2) Entirely false argument. In fact, absolute bollocks. The primary purpose of ANY sentence for ANY crime is punishment, not deterrent. Deterrence is a nice side effect IF it works, but is nothing to do with crime & punishment whatsoever.

Consider this: a crime is either impulsive or pre-meditated. It's a bit difficult to fall between two stools on that one, from the theoretical point of view, yes? If it's impulsive, you're hardly likely to be considering the possible consequences of the crime; if it's pre-meditated, YOU'RE PLANNING ON NOT GETTING CAUGHT!! So, sum & total, deterrence only works on those who wouldn't seriously consider committing the crime in the first place.

As for "vile", the problem with "America's" justice system (acknowledging that it is largely down to individual states) is not that it sentences people to death (which is not murder, folks, unless you choose not to make a distinction between an individual gratifying their own desires, and the state making a reasoned decision based on all the available evidence). It is that it allows these long drawn out sagas to occur.

Fat Man should have been excuted within a year, unless there was any reason not to. If there was, the execution should have been stayed. I'm aware that lots of you will now jump on "reason" and start nit-picking. My point is that the process should have defined limits. In this case, they guy admitted the cold-blooded killing. So there's NO reason, except your squeamish morals which very many people don't share, not to execute. If, after having stayed it & 3 years have passed since sentencing, you can't find a cast-iron reason to execute, then the sentence should be commuted to life.

What is obscene or vile about the process is the open-endedness of it. Either execute or commute; don't let it drag on year after year. But, as some in this thread have acknowledged, there are some who deserve to die. And states (in the sense of nations) have a responsibility & a duty to make those sorts of decisions. With hindsight, I will happily agree that, 40 years ago, whilst I would have said that they were right, they often would not have been (the Guildford Four & the Birmingham Six spring to mind). In this day & age, the level of scrutiny & outcry is so great I think, on probability, we would see very few "innocent" executions.

I am English, not American. I would, given current standards of evidence & process, support the re-introduction of capital punishment to the UK, given an appropriate process of of chaecks & safeguards.

Dale Cregan, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

The population of America is over 300 million. What is the population of western Europe?

400 million.

Not much excuse for the US having such a barbaric criminal justice system, whichever way you thought the answer was going to go. New Zealand's isn't as bad and neither is India's.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Musket
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:17 AM

Come on Al. if you're offering, why stop there?

There is only one way I can see of closing the Th*tcher thread, and you may have hit upon a good solution?

I have myself a little list..

The problem with capital punishment of course is that governments can also have a little list...

And they can't call on Al or me to do it for them either. (Been known to dodge a few salads myself you know.)

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 05:57 AM

Perhaps if you got realy really fat, they'd let you off altogether...

I'm quite obese, could I do in Romney and Ryan?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

So back when about 19, Jim Clark and I were driving to Fredricksburg, Va on Route 17 and, well, he had brought a flask and I had me a sip or two and mist not have been driving to well after if 'cause Officer Snivey pulled us over and asked me if I had been drinkin' and I said, "Well, I mighta" and then he asks if Jim had been drinking and he said he hadn't so Officer Spivey told Jim to drive and told me that I was done...

What the hell does Officer Spivey know about anything, right???

So we get down the road a tad and I tell Jim to pull over and I get back behind the wheel...

'Bout 10 miles down the road we come upon an old Chevy pickup truck with a big ol' hog in the back and it's swervin'bad 'casue that hog is all over the back of that truck...

I'm trying to find a way to get around it but being a two lane road was gonna take some careful timing and plannin' and all that... So I see my opportunity and it's pedal to the metal...

Well, just as I was about to make my move to go around the hog truck the hog figures out how to open up the tail gate and takes a hog dive out the back...

Oh oh...

The following few seconds weren't going to turn out well as Mr. Hog all but exploded before me and the '57 Oldsmobile that I was driving as Mr. Hog and the Olds got to know each other a lot better than either one of them woke up that morning hopin' to find...

When it was over Mr. Hog was spread over about 600 feet of Rt. 17 and I, along with the Olds and Jim Clark were in someone's corn field...

As luck would have it, my buddy Officer Spivey, show up before I can get out from behind the wheel...

No, lets call that bad luck...

The rest of the story involves bail, attorneys, court, fines and my 2nd 6 month suspension of my driving privileges in a 3 year period...

Never mind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:38 PM

"However, if the State can kill these people, then it WILL kill the innocent.

Sadly, it is true in some places. If a combination of careless police, labs, prosecutors, judges and 'community standards' exists that tend to 'expedite justice', then innocents WILL at times be executed.

The question is, do we prevent this ONLY by banning all executions, or is there some way to allow it in cases where there is NO doubt, as in mass murder on video, or with multiple witnesses and a confession?... (Batman shootings in theater.)

When it is all forensic evidence and hearsay and biased witnesses, I think it should be illegal to even make capital punishment an option.


The trouble is, we have such contradictory idea about if and when any killing of a person or persons is justified. (and sometimes even about how to define either murder OR personhood.)

I tend to agree that 'some' murders deserve execution, to rid ourselves of their burden on society... but I would not relish the job of working out a fair, sane way to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:11 PM

"So you would execute people who plead guilty, but not those who present a defence and lose?"

Why do you have the right to put words in my mouth? THAT is EXTREMELY offensive. DO NOT EVER do that again... not to this little black duck.


And then you say, "There are plenty of murderers whose execution I would not regret, and I would not regard their killing as murder."

Huh?

This is not acceptable to me as it is not a logical discussion. Therefore... have fun with it. gnightgnu.

PS... BTW, if ya cut the fucker's throat, he will lose weight.
Even more green than using a rope.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 06:56 PM

The title sounds like a polite way of saying to fat to fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 05:09 AM

When quite young, I used to be very severe in my opinion that a murderer deserved to die etc. I was all for the Death Penalty of 'hanging by the neck until dead', and sorry to see it abolished here in UK. But my old father (who'd seen death in all its forms during the War) once asked me to imagine the felon in his last moments being pinioned, led to the scaffold, a bag put over his head, the rope noose placed around his neck and the lever ready to push for the 'drop'. He asked me, "Now, in all sincerity, would YOU push that lever?" And I had to admit I couldn't have done so. He asked me why not, and it was because to take a life like that in cold blood seemed so obviously wrong. I have to add that the last British Executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, in his autobiography, came to the same conclusion, that hanging was no deterrent, that it was pointless and wrong, and he had no regrets that it had been abolished.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:50 AM

For me, it isn't the fear of executing the innocent that makes me opposed to the death penalty, it is the certainty.

I do agree rationally that the death penalty is wrong in itself, but in all honesty that is not really what drives my opposition. There are plenty of murderers whose execution I would not regret, and I would not regard their killing as murder. However, if the State can kill these people, then it WILL kill the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:33 AM

A murder is a murder. Two murders are two murders.

Hopefully, those who murder on behalf of their ragged tattered Stars and Stripes manage to sleep at night. If not, there are medications available, but like the ones used for lethal injection, wouldn't it be funny if The UK refused an export licence for them too, if they had to get them from the first world.

Eliza has a point, and a point shared by many friends I have in The USA. It shouldn't be the fear of executing innocent people that drives abolition, it is the act of killing people itself. Incarceration is to protect society. Anything over and above that is understandable with regard to the victims's friends and family, but unforgivable with regards to everybody else.

We, including The USA, have courts and juries in order to look at facts without emotion or bias. If you give the death penalty, you might as well not bother with blind justice, as you are pandering to emotion rather than protecting society.

And that is what makes it so sick.