BS: David Cameron is execrable

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:29 AM

Branding people because of creed is very common on this forum. I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. Absolute bigotry widely tolerated by many here.

I have not read a single comment that brands people because of their creed. I have seen plenty of comments that condemn people for assuming that their creed is the one and only truth to the extent of ignoring evidence and unjustly refuting the work of scientists, and I have have seen plenty of comments that brand people for forcing their faith on others, children in particular, seeking to indoctrinate them with what is evidence-free myth peddled as truth. There is a difference, and you'd do well to make the distinction. I've made plenty of the latter type of comments myself. I have also said, countless times, that your faith is your business and you should be respected for it, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't have aspirations to make it anybody else's business. Including your kids'. The job of grown-ups is to give children the skills and the hunger to seek knowledge, not to tell them that things that can't be substantiated are true and needn't be questioned, and sign them up to your particular faith club.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:26 AM

right . there is no excuse for intolerance. but theres an explanation. why do you think all these old fuckers read the daily mail. for a challenging read...informed debate?

i could understand you being outraged by the educated people writing for the mail, who pander to these opinions. but Ake....well he's like the old bloke you hear muttering behind you in the queue at Tesco. leave him alone!

and this....well i never did! stuff. you CAN'T be as outraged as you pretend.

as i've said before - its just bad behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:14 AM

Blimey, Al. I don't think I've ever uttered a word against you, now I get this. I'm in a gang of some kind, a conspiracy. I'm kicking an old man when he's down. Wow.

Al, millions of people still share his views. Gradually, they are dying out, the world is changing and homophobia will become unacceptable, eventually laughable. But most of those millions keep those views to themselves. Akenaton does not only stick his head above the parapet, he stands on the parapet to tell the world. And his views stink. What Jim said. You seem to be telling us that here, on a public forum, he should be able to get away with saying whatever he wants while the rest of us must shut up. Well I don't agree with that, because leaving his disgusting attitudes unchallenged would make the whole place look like it's declared open season on gay people. That cannot be right. He tells it like he thinks it is, so we respond in kind. That's all. And I don't care how bloody old he is. I don't even know unless he tells me. Just don't ask me to silently tolerate the intemperate remarks of a supremely intolerant man. It's a discussion forum, not a platform for untrammelled hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 06:17 AM

No odds to me, either HiLo. I am equally certain that whatever was said was justified.

I was quite happy to let whatever happened lie but please bear in mind that it was Al that has brought it up on multiple threads. It is Al that is concerned about his reputation and yet, even though there is no longer any trace of what happened, he keeps bringing it up for all to see. The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 06:09 AM

I am not denying anything, Keith. Just saying that my recollection is that it was not unjust.

In the words of HiLo

If you doubt my memory , fine. I too would be glad to see the thread where it took place. If you could produce parts of here that would disprove my recollection, I would be glad to read it.

I am quite willing to let the moderators decide if they want to bring it back on line and if my memory proves to be faulty I would be happy to apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:56 AM

The disappearance of the thread seems to be working in your favour Dave. I stand by my memory Of it because I was appalled by it. Ignore it if you wish , makes. O odds to me .

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM

Dave, the thread where you unjustly applied that label to Al may have gone, but many will have seen it and no-one who did will forget it.
If you deny it now, you are just revealing more of your real self.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:44 AM

HiLo

You have still provided no evidence of what actually happened. Until that stage your statements are unsubstantiated and will be ignored.

Al

I will, and have, shown toleration for anyone anything apart from the wilful demonisation of whole sections of society because of the group they belong to. There is just no need for it in this day and age. Even if you were, like me, brought up with it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:43 AM

I fear Al that you are making excuses for intolerance. I too was born into a society (and religion) that held no truck for homosexuals. However, as I grew older I realised that I was at fault for holding those views and there was no reason at all to criticise other people for being different from myself. Be that difference, sexual orientation, race or colour. Homophobia is not acceptable. FULL STOP.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:43 AM

I recall what I read and it was very nasty. If you doubt my memory , fine. I too would be glad to see the thread where it took place. If you could produce parts of here that would disprove my recollection, I would be glad to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:16 AM

well come to that Dave - i see no reply to my points asking for toleration being shown to an old bloke.

the viewpoints Ake takes on this subject are similar to those voiced by the generation that used to say the only good German is a dead one...

you don't hear that too often nowadays.

theres just no need for this vicious self righteous bullshit'

unless of course you're a gang of vicious self righteous bullshitters, which quite frankly i am beginning to suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:15 AM

Al made no racist comment and was hounded on this forum.
I have no desire to set myself up as a target for the same simply because my beliefs and observations differ from yours!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:13 AM

HiLo

the accusation of racism against Al W was cruel and uncalled for

Please provide facts for your claim. If you can link to the actual thread so everyone can see what happened it would resolve a few issues. As with the others, I will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:04 AM

" I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. "
Nobody here has ever suggested such a thing, and in the years I have been a member, I have never known anybody to have suggested it
Can you give an example?
People are accused of racism on the basis of what they write (I can't remember Al's case, but I do know he implicated me in that accusation, which was uncalled for).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:48 AM

Branding people because of creed is very common on this forum. I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. Absolute bigotry widely tolerated by many here.
People are wrongly accused of racism where none is present.the accusation of racism against Al W was cruel and uncalled for, one of the nastiest things I have seen on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:44 AM

"I oppose homosexual "marriage" not homosexuals or homosexuality."
You have persistently depicted homosexuality as unnatural and have, at least once, described the practice as spreading the Gay plague
Describing same sex marriage as an attack on (your particular) family values is homophobic - and none of your business.
You have suggested that homosexuality tends towards pedophilia
The world has moved on - homosexuality is now fully accepted as a natural act.
Comparing homosexuality to addiction - (a self-imposed act) is homophobic - it is the way some people are, not what what they take a decision on - that is a long-established fact and until you get your head around it, you will remain homophobic.
The idea that homosexuality is a curable disease (like addiction) is a myth peddles by religious nutters.
Your patronising "sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path" is homophobic in the extreme
Homosexuality is a natural state for some people - like being left-handed.
Every posting you make on homosexuality serves only to make our point.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:25 AM

You are too doctrinaire PC to tackle the homophobic attitude coming out of some of the mosques.

The homophobic (and sexist) attitude coming out of some mosques is terrible. There are some Imams who are firmly in the 11th century and they need to come into the 21st.

There, will that do?

There are also many Imams and practising Muslims (of which I work with many) who ARE firmly in the 21st century and are as tolerant as anyone. More tolerant than some.

The issue is not about PC doctrine or age old attitudes. It is about stereotyping. When you stereotype any group you de-humanise them. It is a practice that I grew up with and I often have to force myself to break our of old habits, but I do and it is worth the effort. Branding whole swathes of society as this, that or the other because of their race, culture, creed or sexual preference is simply wrong. People are individuals and we should look at their individual merits and faults, not brand them because of how or where they were born.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:45 AM

I see there are still no answers to my questions, ake. Your silence speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:35 AM

Steve   -just who the hell are you to tell someone how they should feel?

I have explained at tedious length how and why my Father's generation felt that way about homosexuality. It was actually my father's job as a copper in Boston to lurk about the bogs in the park arresting the poor sods who were cottaging. I've seen lecture notes supplied to him by the leading forensic scientists of the day explaining how anal intercourse could kill you.

you are not going to wipe out those sort of cultural weirdnesses in a generation just by wishing it so.

you lose all the moral highground when you tell another human being that their very existence is disgusting.

I can't help feeling that you are just jumping on the bandwagon abusing an old man.

You are too doctrinaire PC to tackle the homophobic attitude coming out of some of the mosques. I used to find those attitudes in the essays of kids that I taught. And of course - you had to tread very carefully not to upset their cultural values.

You just give an old man a good kicking cos all the other mindless types are piling in. I bet Ake's kids don't feel the same way he does - because they have grown up in a more liberal society.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 07:00 PM

You say you oppose homosexual "marriage". You equate homosexuality with addiction. You regard homosexuals as having the need to "travel a path". You are homophobia personified. You are disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:06 PM

Jim...."I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly "....yes you have, you have accused me of homophobia.

I oppose homosexual "marriage" not homosexuals or homosexuality.
To do so would be rank stupidity homosexuality is a fact of life as is addiction, I feel sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path, not fear or hatred.
In saying that, I believe the legislation to redefine marriage to accommodate a sexual minority with such associated health problems, is bad for the future of society.

I believe that increased testing and contact tracing within the demographic is required urgently, and the issue of "open" relationships within MSM subjected to scientific study.
This will save many lives and cut down the number of male homosexuals serving out a life sentence on retroviral medication.

Does your twisted ideology blind you so much that you believe that to be homophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:53 PM

" DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum "

Kindly apprise me of the name of the person I'm supposed to have treated so badly and tell me which posts of mine contained the offending material. Until then, I don't know what you're talking about, and I regard these vague and unfocussed allegations as scurrilous and mischievous. Hardly surprising, of course, considering the source.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:47 PM

"I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly - you, above anybody should know this.
Back up your snide statement"

Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll is the man that accused me of being a talentless moron.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:53 PM

" DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum "
Do not make snide referenbces to me without proof
I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly - you, above anybody should know this.
Back up your snide statement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:53 PM

I think you may have fooled more than one or two in your day, Al. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:49 PM

maybe based on familiarity with your techniques of villification
you've had a good run with it.

did you really expect it to work for ever.

you know the one about fooling some of the people all the time...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:49 PM

How was Al 'labelled' and for what, Keith? You are very fond of asking for chapter and verse. Provide us evidence of what actually happened and your point may become credible. Until you do it is my word against Al's and we have already stated our cases. Feel free to believe one or the other but unless you have any facts you are merely speculating.

The behaviour of DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum has been execrable.

Facts, Keith. Facts are all that matter in any such debate, not opinions. Give us verifiable facts rather than unsubstantiated allegations.

Again, I will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:30 PM

And I agree with Al.
The behaviour of DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum has been execrable.
Al should never have been labelled as he was, and nor should any other member.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:28 PM

Professor I am able to read, I am also able to cut and paste. I am also able to perceive from an article the point that an author is trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:23 PM

Rag,
Douglas T. Kenrick, Ph.D., is the Professor of Social Psychology at Arizona State University, and is author of over 200 scientific articles, books, and book chapters, the majority applying evolutionary ideas to human behavior and thought processes. At a theoretical level, his work integrates three great syntheses of the last few decades: evolutionary psychology, cognitive science, and dynamical systems theory. Much of that work has been funded by NIMH and NSF and has been reported in journals including Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Psychological Review, Perspectives on Psychological Science, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and Evolution and Human Behavior. Kenrick has edited several books on evolutionary psychology, contributed chapters to the Handbook of Social Psychology and the Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology, and been an author of two multi-edition textbooks (Social Psychology: Goals in Interaction, with Steve Neuberg and Bob Cialdini, is now in its 5th edition).

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

you two totally miss the point

we weren't talking about race when i got called a racist.

this thread isn't about gay relationships - but here's Ake being called a homophobe.

he holds the views he holds - which aren't unusual views for men of his age , who grew up in an illiberal era when homosexuality was illegal. an era when children were encouraged to look upon being gay with deep revulsion. you're asking him to re-program a brain - which given the strictures of the Scottish church would be next to impossible.

his views get dragged in an abusive manner into virtually every discussion on the forum.

you're not doing the same to me without a struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

I would think the title of the article would tell you all you needed to know about the author and his viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 02:35 PM

So, Keith, Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?

No.
Gay women are actually less promiscuous that straight women.
Gay men however, are more promiscuous than straight men.
Quite a lot more.

" Homosexual men are famously promiscuous, a fact that became well-known with onset of AIDs, when studies of gay men who were HIV positive revealed average numbers of partners in the hundreds (and even though gay men who were HIV negative had much lower numbers, the average for them was still dramatically higher than the average numbers for heterosexual men). Lesbians might have been expected to be more promiscuous than heterosexual women, since they had no pregnancy to fear, and on the classic theories, would have been inclined to play out a "male sex role." But research by Michael Bailey and David Schmitt found that lesbians are inclined toward even less promiscuous lives than heterosexual women."

Musket may wish to report the author to the police.
All his details can be found by clicking on his name here,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-murder-and-the-meaning-life/201006/homosexuality-queer-problem

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:19 PM

"Well, if that's your idea of 'gleeful revelling', J"
What is it then Mike - a warning about being gay, a warning to steer clear of gays - there's very little sign of it being sympathy.
Along with the other pronouncements about homosexuality being unnatural and same sex marriage being a threat to the traditional family and giving unfair rights to gays over heterosexuals - it's gleeful revelling of the type indulged in by proselytizing evangelicals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:01 PM

I know that MSM folk are, because studies have confirmed it is a fact and I have seen it acknowledged on gay sites.
It is the reason that they are at such high risk.

From my linked page,

"Recent results from the Gay Men's
Sex Survey (GMSS) conducted
by Sigma Research suggests the
correlation between high numbers of
sexual partners and infection with STIs
including HIV – 'Numbers of sexual
partners was strongly associated to
HIV testing history, HIV diagnosis
and diagnosis of other STIs'. 3
For
example, 20.9% of those with 30 more
partners in the last year were HIV
positive (i.e had received a positive
diagnosis) compared with 6.6% of those
with between two and four partners in
the last year. Gonorrhoea was reported
in the last year for 16.1% of HIV positive
men with 30 or more partners and 6.6%
of men not tested positive with 30 or
more partners, compared with 4.9%
and 1.2% respectively for those with ..."

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 12:33 PM

So, Keith, Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others? And that was only one of three questions.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 12:09 PM

"Both the number and very probably the
concurrency of sexual partners have a
significant impact on HIV transmission
amongst MSM in the UK.
Reducing the number and
concurrency of sexual partnerships
amongst MSM is an appropriate
objective, both ethically and
epidemiologically, for HIV prevention
frameworks in the UK nations. "
http://www.nat.org.uk/media/Files/Publications/July-2010-Parternship-Patterns-and-HIV-Prevention.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:56 AM

2. Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?

Having multiple concurrent partners is the accepted reason for the very high rates of all STIs among MSM.
There is no prejudice in stating that.
You will find it referred to in the gay media and web sites.
I remember linking to an NAT page about exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM

Well, if that's your idea of 'gleeful revelling', Jim, then I feel bound to say that I don't think you'd recognise a gleeful revel if it crep' up behind you and bit you on the bum. Why, if really pushed even a miserable old sod like me could revel a bit more gleefully than just reproducing a few undisputed statistics*, which is all Ake has been doing. But as they are statistics that unhappily do not confirm the prejudices of your old Mind·made·up·no·facts·please Brigade, you somehow purport to see them as gleeful revelling, and fall back on the weary old copout of the Shoot·The·Messenger routine.!

Best
≈M≈

≤small>*none of you lot over there has made any coherent attempt to dispute them anyhow that anyone can see

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:15 AM

ake - Three simple questions

1. Do you believe homosexuals are perverts?
2. Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?
3. Do you believe that homosexuals should be afforded the same rights as others?

I will not hold my breath waiting for a straight answer.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:00 AM

"Dave the T and a couple more gleefully joined Team Musket in personal abuse"
Many people have been guilty of personal abuse of one sort or another - one of the problems is that they only seem to recognise it when they are the target.
Some people's behaviour has become intolerable and obsessive, which has, I have little doubt, given rise to personal abuse.
It really isn't a chicken and egg situation - discussion, however heated, seldom starts abusively, so if everybody, looked to their own behaviour instead of eternally complaining others' it might help.
Gleefully reveling in sexually transmitted diseases only confirms your position - Mrs Whitehouse would have been proud of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 10:09 AM

You are wrong Jim, Dave the T and a couple more gleefully joined Team Musket in personal abuse and Al was labelled a racist for mentioning an incident he had witnessed.....he never at any time expressed fear or dislike of Eastern Europeans in general. Quite the contrary, he has always been open minded on any subject, we have often disagreed but without rancour. They are a bunch of cronies, or would like to be!    I credit you with a little more sense than to get involved with TM, but sometimes you print without thinking.
I do not "take a pop" at homosexuals. I oppose homosexual "marriage" as millions of others do and I try to give my reasons and sources for doing so....that is not "taking a pop" homosexuals can do what they like within their own group but to call it marriage and legislate for it is a re-definition.
I have never mentioned "gay plague", you made that up.
I have quoted official health figures which indicate an epidemic of sexually transmitted disease within the MSM group.
You may not think it is an epidemic, but the health agencies certainly do.    Latest figure for 2013 81% of all new hiv infections in the US amongst MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 08:44 AM

"your gang of cronies"
Same as Dave said.
Cronyism is for politicians and you do no good to accuse people of being what they are not.
Don't know about 'village idiot' but Ake is well known for taking a regular pop at gays, from'Gay Plague', up - just because everybody says it doesn't mean it isn't true!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 07:03 AM

1. I have no 'gang of cronies'
2. There is no danger that anyone will come across 'my slurs' because there are none. Do a google search if you don't believe me.
3. The village idiot tag is in answer to his constantly calling me a troll and a liar. I see nothing from you about that.
4. He says that homosexuals are perverted, licentious and should not be allowed to marry. What is that but homophobia and what does it say of you in supporting him?

Need I go on?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:28 AM

seeing as it was my reputation that was sullied, i probably have thought about it a damn sight more than your gang of cronies on mudcat.

and felt the insult.

i've done maybe eight bookings in the last three weeks under my own name - Big Al Whittle. people do internet searches on me. people i don't know who are thinking of booking me. there is a danger they will come across your slurs.

when you abuse Ake - call him the village idiot, a homophobe, god knows what else..

well ake's not doing gigs as far as i know, but its not very nice.

i obviously can't make you see that saying foul hurtful things is wrong. but it can damage people. and it sure as hell damages mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:24 AM

Glad it was of some use then, Al. There is nothing on the internet that says you are a racist though apart from you repeating it. No-one has access to the thread in question because it has been deleted so what is there left? Apart from your wounded pride and you bringing it up at every opportunity? Both you and I know what happened but our recollections are at odds. Neither of us can provide any evidence of what actually happened so it is mere hearsay. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:34 AM

well it revealed to me David is really quite popular.

i think he's turd, but that viewpoint doesn't have much popular support.

i think , you and me, Dave will never get on.

i used to wonder why most of the well known folksingers in England give mudcat a wide berth. it suddenly clicked the other day.

hundreds of people on the English folkscene must know me ......millions know my hit record in Germany.
now its on the internet that i'm a racist. i suppose they see the temperature of the water and think...who needs that?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 03:55 PM

Were any conclusions reached?

Was anyone's mind changed?

Did the thread serve its intended purpose?

Or did it just create bad feeling, animosity and high blood pressure for some and a source of amusement for others?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:59 PM

Hell of an echo in here! 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:05 PM

i do feel that for some reason the politicians of ability and integrity never seem to attain highest office , or at any rate get treated very badly. Micheal Hesseltine and John MacGregor being good cases in point in the Maggie era. she just wanted yes men around her.