Can we have some Mudcat accounts?

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:45 PM

I might as wade into the fray. My corporation is an "S" corporation as I would think Onstage Media is. Didn't Max say once that the Mudcat was a 501(3)(c) or non-profit? If so, he has to keep pretty complex records. I know because I sit on the board of directors of a non-profit corporation as Treasurer. Whether he has time to give us an accounting is purely his choice. But he has to give one to the government. Since he hasn't said anything about it, I would assume he doesn't want to and leave it at that. Donate or not and get the records yourself. It's public information.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM

I have no idea who this particular guest maybe and I don't really care.

All of this strong reaction to the post is largely due to speculation as to who the poster may be and what their motives may be.

Instead of feeding this paranoia, would it not be better address the points made or just to ignore them?

These questions are best left to Max to address or ignore. I seem to remember this very same situation happening not too long ago.

Does Max really need all this unpleasantness, all in in the name of defending him? has he asked for this?

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Groucho Marxist (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:19 PM

I'm new here so please excuse me if I'm stepping on any toes.

I assume from the ".org" designation that Mudcat is a non-profit organization. Perhaps I'm wrong about that assumption. I work for a non-profit and we're legally required to keep books with annual audited statements available to anyone who wants to see them.

The question at the top of this thread did not seem hostile to my reading. I don't understand the anger.

Groucho

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:17 PM

Praise, I do understand what you are saying.....but this was not about money and Kendall has hit the nail squarely on the head. In this case, I was the first in line to kick ass. My button, if you will, is trust and loyalty to friends when integrity is attacked. So I do see your point of course, but I probably learned nothing.

As to the identity of this person.......Well it was obvious that it was a member and within a few postings I was reasonably convinced who it was and a few others seem to agree. The "Guest Big Mick" pretty well nailed it down though. Very sad as this is a talented individual and used to be a lot of fun too...............

Since Jeri brought it up awhile back, I have responded to Guests with trust that they are asking legitimate questions and try to ignore the blatantly obvious flamers and trolls. This was no guest, but a member trying to stir it up.....and with the angle they chose to take, I would commit the same attack again. The issue is friendship and loyalty.....and integrity.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: dwditty
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:13 PM

There you go with your sugar coating again, Kendall. I take it the line forms at the rear?

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:13 PM

Yes, to those who agree with the original post, "What do you want for nothing? a refund?

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:08 PM

Sorry that was YES to. Anyone learn anything useful from this one?

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:01 PM

I contribute, and, I get my moneys worth. What else is there? Max and I dont agree on music, as a rule, but if you attack him or his integrity, there will be a line to kick your ass. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:50 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM

Praise<
My response to this was straightforward and honest. I am not fighting with anyone. I honestly don't know or care if the Guest who started this thread is simply asking a question or rattling chains. Rationally, I don't expect, want, need, request or anything else an accounting from Max about how he spends the money donated by members. I have never been asked for a donation other than through the "Support The Mudcat" link above or when another member has raised the issue.
Agreed, some have come to Max's defense because they "smell a rat". I don't blame Guest for asking for or for his/her unwillingness to give money without an accounting. I also don't blame those who felt they had to speak up on Max's behalf.
There seems to be a tiresome complaint that guests are being treated badly. Surely the title Guest doesn't carry with it the requirement that I agree with whatever Guest says or be accused of being exclusionist or belligerent? Or have I gone off the deep end and completely misunderstood you?
Love you Praise.
Mary

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:14 PM

Well, gee, we have had fights over the other things people hold dear, now it's money. D'ya think maybe people have FEELINGS about MONEY that make it hard to discuss it rationally???!!!!!!?????

Anyone learn anything useful from this one?

~S~

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:13 AM

Well John, you are mistaken. This cretin confirmed what I said. She is trying to create an issue. And s/he appropriated my identity to do it. I did not apologize as I did not say anything that required that. I am not afraid to apologize as a search on my postings will demonstrate. But this is one of these subspecies that commits one of what I consider to be unpardonable sins. They not only hide behind the GUEST identity, but they use others identities. There can be only one reason they do this. And it has to do with their intent. They are cowardly, lack character and honor, and think it is OK to try and achieve their ends through whatever means. Why? Who knows, maybe unresolved Oedipal issues. That is for other, more learned individuals to resolve.

But to bring this back around to where it started. As I stated before, I understand the original comment and question. I just don't happen to feel it is necessary. One day formal fundraising may be required. Then things will change. But as slick as this place is, it is still Max's hobby, with a secondary function that it provides him with a place to experiment with things that he can use at Onstage Media. That is probably how he justifies it.

And while I understand the question, I think I must also point out that I think I understand your motive. If you had just asked the question, I would have believed you to just be a person with an opinion. And as such I would have treated you differently. But the way you reacted so quickly and started attacking so fast leads me to believe that you intended to create an issue as part of an ongoing attempt to attack Max and recreate the Mudcat as you would like it to be.

If you would care to discuss this and convince me otherwise, why don't you send me a PM? I assure you that I will not share your identity as I consider that to be the other unpardonable sin. When two parties share PERSONAL MESSAGES, they are just that. Personal. To me, posting the contents of personal messages without the permission of the posters.........Or appropriating the identity of another should be cause for banishment. And if Max doesn't agree, that is his prerogative. But I will attack you for violating either of these rules.

Mick

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:23 AM

Nice bunch of people here, but your current manners are deplorable. I'm ashamed of your behaviour - congratulations to Mick for having the sense to draw breath and the guts to apologise. Sadly, John

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Callie
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM

Wow - some folks sure have forgotten to take their medication this morning! Guest was only asking a polite question.

Guest, the last time a 'fundraising' took place, the target was $50,000 to upgrade something or other, the name of which eludes me because I'm not very computer literate. (and this is all from memory - but that was the figure mentioned I think).

I chose to contribute because I have benefitted from Mudcat in more ways than I can count, and it seems obvious to me that it is being run on the smell of an oily rag. The people who contribute to making the the best site in cyberspace put so many hours into maintaining the site, and with such goodwill, that I have no doubts at all of their integrity.

I agree with you that targets and figures could be a good way of encouraging more people to contribute, and feeling a sense of achievement that the targets are closer to being met. At the same time, I don't feel strongly enough about this to stop contributing if those targets aren't stated.

peace to you all, and thanks to all the people who keep this place open every day.

Callie

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:02 AM

I subscribe because it's great value for my dollar. There's fine music conversation, with a couple of old-fart resident curmudgeons, some very nice people with helpful suggestions, a couple of opinionated young folks who remind me of my own kids, serious musicians who share their expertise, and a shitload of song lyrics. You won't get that with a magazine subscription. Plus, I get to see my name in print.
All the best. Seamus

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:19 AM

Nice try, Sean, but I have to mention, since Joe put out a call for home brew that

MY SON TOOK FOURTH PLACE IN THE KENTUCKY STATE FAIR HOME BREW CONTEST ON HIS FIRST TRY EVER!!!

proudMamaKat

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:42 PM

Lazy, lazy Fake "Guest, Big Mick". Study your targets.

The least you could have done is made reference to Allison or some such. *sigh* Parody is SUCH a lost art these days.

Hey, how 'bout we finish this entire thing with "Give however much you are comfortable with, be it money, time spent answering questions, listening to the Mudcat Radio, participating in HearMe or what have you".

Take only joy, leave only what you'd have others leave for you.

M

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:12 PM

........uh, lose your cookie all of a sudden Mick? Or has this been posted from another part of the country?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:49 PM

Guest,I am sorry for my rude remarks. I do believe you have a right to express yourself as you wish in this forum. Nothing you have said has been rude!

Mick did NOT make this posting - Bert

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:37 PM

I missed Max saying that on MCR but that is a great vision!

Jon

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:27 PM

I have an accounting:
1.Two hours average per day (I am on at work a lot) on the Forum and Digitrad.
2.Met more people of similar interests in three months than a year membership in an an on-line social club. They provided mostly mass murderers and misogynists.
3.Unlimited access to lyrics I previously could only get from a series of aged relatives. And the ranks are thinning.
4. An opportunity to sing anything I want on Hearme. Someone was actually pleased to hear "Boston Burglar". I never sang for anyone before.
5. Selfless expertise from musicians, computer geeks, and would be social workers who care.
6. The encouragement I needed to buy an instrument and learn to play.
I have spent less on the 'Cat than I my daily coffee. Thank you guest. You made me aware that it is time to send in another donation.
Mary

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:19 PM

Re: Jon Freeman---- I said it tonight in chat and I'll repeat it here..........

Many of us have come to really enjoy the HearMe song circles. Those wouldn't be happening had Jon not taken the project on and worked through the details. That is payment enough by my thinking for anyone to have made. Thanks again Jon.

Max also brought up a good point on the show. This place is about folk and blues and keeping traditions alive and well. So when you donate time to a school or give an old instrument to a young kid to get them going, or give away a lesson or two, or play at the old folks home, or for 'Special' kids....YOU are donating to the Mudcat. Very profound and great vision for a young little pissant like Max to have. But its true.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM

JOn - time and talent are worth money - and gad knows you've contributed wads of time and talent!

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:49 PM

Still, as you can see, that was really cheap beer Max was drinking tonight. We need to raise his standard of drinking... Can somebody send him some home brew?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM

Hey Jon, you don't need to explain. I have always seen you as one of the most decent, helpful people here. There is no need for you to bare the laundry. Good luck on the studies, and thanks for all you do to be a helpful Mudcatter.

Mick

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:17 PM

Not me Mick, I've rarely got any money and I have just gone from being unemployed to student for a while...

I try to do what "A nicer guest" suggests but that is my lot.

Jon

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:08 PM

Let's turn this positive. How about everyone who posted here agreeing to pop a check in the mail. One is on the way, Max. I am overdue for a contribution anyway. Use it for anything you want except a donation to Dubya or the Republican Party...........LOL.

Mick

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: TonyK
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:39 PM

Anonymous passive-aggressive button-pusher.

"I came here for an arguement"
"no you didn't"
"Yes I did"
"No you didn't"

I don't have to play unless I want to. I usually lose when I do.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Giac
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:16 PM

For godsake, GUEST, get a grip. Can't you see where the money goes? We have an unbelievable resource literally at our fingertips -- for free. People who are able contribute what they can.

I for one am very grateful to Max, et al (no comments, Spaw), for what must be a very costly and frustrating endeavor.

Giac

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: dwditty
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:49 PM

I've got a problem. I just made a small donation and it says my credit card statement will say Onstage Media. I just know my wife will think it's a strip club. Oh well, I've got a couple of weeks to come up with a story.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Banjer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:47 PM

Only if these good neighbors remain on their own sides of them....

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: dwditty
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:43 PM

Ah yes, good fences make...

dw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM

I'd love to have 'spaw for a neighbor.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Banjer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:37 PM

All I was trying to ask by starting this thread, was to understand where my money might be going, and how any contribution might be used.

Your money is going to the address to which you send it, and any contribution is used to keep this site going. End of story!!
Catspaw has already popped his cork, I ain't far behind. We had a neighbor like you one time. She didn't like how we parked our vehicles on our own property, she protested when we painted our house because she didn't think an offwhite was acceptable when others around us were earth tones, our shrubbery didn't meet her approval. You sound like her. Never happy with anything, always going out of your way to bitch about something. I have made several contributions to Max, no earthshaking amount but something I could afford. I am happy with my decisions, may you be happy with what ever you decide to do! I am BANJER....I am not afraid to use my name to state my opinions.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: dwditty
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:34 PM

Guest, don't call me Shirley! Here's an idea. Why don't we all send some money to Max (Mudcat), and we can all claim credit for whatever it is used for. (With a smirk, but I like this idea. Me first.)

dw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM

I think CarolC's comment was very wise, and I'd like to repeat it:

Here's a suggestion. Send a PM to Max and ask him what he needs, equipment wise. If he tells you about something that is in a price range that you can consider, then buy it for him and give it to him. Or, you can contribute to the utility expenses by sending money directly to the utility company on behalf of the Mudcat. If you really want to make a financial contribution, I'm sure you can find a way that won't make you feel uncomfortable.

There have been times when some sort of upgrade was needed, and Max has told us it would cost such-and-such an amount. Generally, though, I think most of us feel comfortable just sending Max some money now and then to help defray his costs. Max does this mostly for fun, but I suppose he learns a bit here and there from his experiments with the 'Cat, and he probably makes use of that learning in his business, Onstagemedia.
I've worked with volunteer organizations all my life. As much as possible, I've avoided fundraising, and I've often paid for activities myself instead of resorting to fundraising. It's a royal pain to try to account for funds in any volunteer organization. Whenever you get formal enough that you start collecting money and accounting for funds, there's always suspicion and ill will that arises. I think we're better off to stay where we are, although I think it would be nice if we would all throw a little more beer money Max's way.
I think we're much better off if we think of Max as an Enlightened Despot, a Benevolent Dictator. Throw a little more money at him, and keep him in a good mood.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM

What are you getting for your money? You get to have your say on this forum thats what. Max is very reluctant to ask for donations for a number of reasons, and, you just added one to the list. All I know is, he has done an outstanding job on this web site, and I, among others, are very grateful. I will continue to send donations to him to help support what I am enjoying right now!

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:40 PM

I can bert!!! It maybe flame or it maybe question, but the point is the same.

As to what the fockin' pissant needledick who started this thread is .... Well, my vote would be for --

RAT BASTARD OF THE WEEK

Take your sanctimonious attitude and your fockin' worthless opinions and stick 'em in your tight ass with a lump of coal. In 24 hours you could have a diamond, you worthless fockin' asswipe.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:28 PM

You are not TOTALLY misunderstood. Many of us can clearly see what you are.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:09 PM

Night Owl: I agree with you up to a point (and I am a professional fund raiser). Many donors prefer to donate to a specific thing or activity but what may be needed most might be operating expenses. Many donors don't like to give to OE because they feel they can't "see" what their money was used for, but they are very necessary.

I suspect Max would accept donations for specific things but also might welcome funds to use at his discretion. That's the basis on which I send donations anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:05 PM

Guest, did you see my second post to this thread? I think it adequately addresses your point.

Carol

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM

I really do want to pull my hair out at times here.

Aine thinks that I'm another intoloper. She is so, so wrong.

All I am trying to say is that the Mudcat might get more financial contributions if we knew what we were contributing to.

If that is so wrong...

Well make your own decision

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:00 PM

I do think this was a wind-up, but just to try logic... If something is going to be needed for Mudcat next year, and it's going to take that long to save a 10th of the money needed, how is Max or anyone going to predict what that is, short of "hardware and software upgrades?"

If he manages to save money, fine. If he needs it now, he's not going to get enough to make a difference - not that it helps all that much even in the long run.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Night Owl
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:58 PM

Guest...not sure here if I understand your difficulty conceptualizing Mudcats. My "knee-jerk" reaction to your first post was to suggest you send in a check, for a year's supply of aspirin for Max. After reading your second post, I choose to believe your question is sincere. THEORETICALLY I think you're right..professional fundraising is usually more successful if there's a specific item/goal to purchase. If that is your background, I assume Max et. al. have a wish list. Maybe if you sent a personal message, letting Max know how much you wish to contribute, a specific item could be purchased for that amount. Further, if you do have a fundraising background, perhaps you could give us some more specifics. It's difficult, but I'm assuming your comments to Bert where a clumsy way of saying YOU would never spend that amout of $$ on preserving and sharing music.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:52 PM

Guest: The Mudcat is not a public corporation. There is no requirement to publish a financial statement. I have made modest donations to the Mudcat and wouldn't dream of asking Max for an accounting. I agree with Joe Offer. The pleasure I receive from the Mudcat is well worth my sending a few bucks from time to time.

Right, Spaw, if Max squanders the money on spirits, wild women (or maybe not so wild) and condoms, why not? Just be carefull, Max, those things have been known to leak, and you could end up with a little Max. If you think the Mudcat is expensive, and worrysome, and oh you know ...

DougR

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Áine
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:47 PM

Shame on the lot of you for letting yet another anonymous troll wind you up and/or get your goat. Now, instead of typing in a response to this person, and therefore taking up yet more space on the server(s) that Max has to support out of his own pocket, if you can afford it, take out your checkbook, write a check, and put it in the mail to Max right now. There'll be no good done in responding anymore to this obvious flamebait. And to those who can only afford to support the Mudcat by helping others, good on you, too.

In other words, put your money and/or time and knowledge where your mouth is. And we'll all be the better for it, even the anonymous guest, although he/she/it probably will never realize it.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 'guest' actually has a point.

I only ever give to charity collectors in the street, when I have a fair idea where the money will go.

I don't see 'guest's' point as being any different from that.

Ed

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:45 PM

First Guest.

Here's a suggestion. Send a PM to Max and ask him what he needs, equipment wise. If he tells you about something that is in a price range that you can consider, then buy it for him and give it to him. Or, you can contribute to the utility expenses by sending money directly to the utility company on behalf of the Mudcat. If you really want to make a financial contribution, I'm sure you can find a way that won't make you feel uncomfortable.

Respectfully,

Carol

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: GUEST,A Nicer Guest
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:38 PM

To the not-so-nice Guest:

Unless you have been personally solicited by Max, you are under no obligation to donate ANYTHING. As my astute colleagues, above, have stated, many of us receive far more enjoyment from this site, than could ever be redeemed or expressed in monetary units. If you do not feel this way or have not experienced the upgrades that have occurred over the past three and one/half years, then you are blind, or more nicely put, simply unawares.

I'm sure there are mudcatters who simply cannot afford to send a donation, but they contribute in other ways, such as, helping newcomers to the site or researching an answer for a question. We consider this as much of a donation as sending a check. Have you given up your personal time to help a fellow mudcatter? If you answer is "no," then everything said in this thread is probably falling on deaf ears.

So, stay if you like; go if you don't like. The Mudcat Cafe will survive with or without you, however, most mudcatters feel that losing "someone" is sad. It is your decision.

Subject: RE: Can we have some Mudcat accounts?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM

I'm obviosly being totally misunderstood here, so I'll make this my last post on this thread.

If I knew that the mudcat needed a new server, why, and how much it was going to cost, I'd be more than happy to help.

When I have no idea, and any money I might contribute goes into a virtual vacuum, I have less inclination to help.

Surely this view makes sense to someone?