Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

Thanks, MtheGM.

According to my line of thought, Hugill was doing there the same thing that many have done in this thread. I was taking the line for granted and without much other historical context and seeking to guess at its meaning. Maybe I think (I don't!) a "bunch of roses" means a girl's first menstruation in Gambia. Why would I jump to that, though, unless I had some preconceived notion in mind about where the shanty is from?

The many other references to similar "bunch of roses" songs make no hint whatsoever at redcoats. Hugill did not have all those references, but he had some. He chose to relate it to English history, but on only the grounds of a phrase that is by no means exclusive to that context.   

Gibb

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:24 PM

'Redcoats' or 'Blood-red Roses' as they were called on account of the red jackets they invariably wore" (1994:274-5).   While I find that to be pure speculation with little to support it...'

Your arguments are indeed cogent: but as to the 'little to support it', you must surely give some credence to the well-authenticated "Conversing with young Bonaparte Concerning the Bonnie Bunch of Roses-o"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:20 PM

P.S., and this is only for the folks that tend to get "defensive." There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with singing "blood red roses" -- and it is quite an awesome chantey and a great one to sing, IMO. My argument simply has these motivations:

1) (in this thread): To explain why I think speculating the origin and meaning of the phrase is moot.
2) (in my article): To demonstrate the dynamics of the folk revival, and how media, clout, strong personalities, and the desire for certain origins and stories behind songs have influenced/changed their previous meanings. One of my more contentious allegations would be that both the perception of chanteys as primarily something White British and the desire to "use" them in articulating that heritage (especially) by certain leading figures in the Revival was played out in subtle ways of how they interpreted the chanteys for audiences, both in terms of musical style and backstory about them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:09 PM

OK, here's the excerpt I'm working on. I've not formated it, for example for italics, so it may miss a little. And obviously the citations refer to items in a bibliography, which won't appear here (but I can provide on request). The context of the passage is an examination of the legacy of Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (SFSS) in shaping, not-shaping, and in some cases, being shaped by the Revival. Any feedback is appreciated, thanks. Gibb, A.K.A. Skeptic Sahib

*snip*

...My final example shows just how complicated and subtle the process is, especially when vagueness about origins is overlooked in favor of clout and the desire for a story with which one can identify. It concerns one of the best-known shanties in the current repertoire, often called "Blood Red Roses." It is so entrenched, in fact, that there is surely little interest among practitioners in critiquing its pedigree as a "traditional shanty." In fact, this is just the usual dynamic at work. One does not often go to books seeking information on something which one feels he or she already knows about. It is for the lesser-known shanties that a person would turn to SFSS, and these being less-known gather little momentum. The trajectory of so-called "Blood Red Roses" is one that achieved great momentum despite little being known of it at the start of the Revival.
        In 1879, Captain R.C. Adams, in On Board the Rocket, gave the chorus (text only) of "Come Down, you bunch of roses" as heard sung some decades earlier by an all African-American crew headed out of Boston for Virginia; they followed it by the quintessential Caribbean shanty, "Sally Brown" (1879:65). We do not read of this shanty again until 1924 when, in obvious reference to Adam's text (as well as to Dana 1869), shanty scholar Joanna Colcord wrote,

What would lovers of shanties not give to hear "Captain Gone Ashore," or "Come Down, You Bunch o' Roses, Come Down"? They were sung once, and their names survive, but there is in all probability no one living today who ever heard those tunes lifted to halliards or windlass. (Colcord 1938:35)

Colcord would be proven wrong; however, her statement demonstrates the great rarity of the shanty—at least in Anglo-American circles. A version of this song, although not used as a shanty, was recorded by Alan Lomax in the Bahamas in 1935 (Lomax 1999), entitled "Come Down, You Roses." Lomax recorded what seems to be another related song, "Coming Down with a Bunch of Roses" in Trinidad in 1962 (Lomax 1997). It was a play song sung by schoolgirls, but this would not be the first time Caribbean play songs correlate with shanties (e.g. "Little Sally Rackett"). Doerflinger (1990 [1951]) was the first collector to print a full text and melody for the shanty form, "Come Down, You Bunch of Roses." He called it "very rare," getting it not from an oral source, but rather finding it only in an 1893 manuscript of a sailor from Salem, Mass., Nathaniel Silsbee, who had learned it in the late 1880s. The solo verses have a particularly "downhome" African-American, Southern or minstrel-song flavor, for example:

        Oh, what do yer s'pose we had for supper?
        Black-eyed beans and bread and butter.

        Oh, Poll's in the garden picking peas.
She's got fine hair way down to her knees.
(Doerflinger 1990:22)

A couple other song samples seem to be of a related strain. Harlow documented a sing-out (a form of short shanty or work-chant) "of negro origin," that he heard in 1875 aboard the Akbar out of Boston, having the phrase "Oh Mary! Come down with your bunch of Roses!" (2004:29). And a Gordon Grant book from circa 1931 has, "Ho, Molly come down, Come down with your pretty posey, Come down with your cheeks so rosy. Ho, Molly, come down." This, then, was an uncommon shanty with a curious connection to trade with Massachusetts and that only seemed lived on in, if it was not derived from, music of the Afro-Caribbean world. The phrase, "bunch of roses," if not literal, is perhaps a term of endearment.

The trajectory of the song changes drastically with A.L. Lloyd's rendition of the shanty, as "Go Down, You Blood Red Roses," on a 1956 album, The Singing Sailor. In June of that year, more significantly, Lloyd appeared in the film adaptation of Moby Dick. The tune of his rendition matched that printed by Doerflinger, a text that he clearly utilized on occasion (i.e. as seen from a pattern of other renditions in his recordings). However, the phrases "go down" and "blood red roses" were new. Some now believe these lines were inspired by the image of killing whales, but that legend probably derives from the song's strong association with the film. The performance and picturization of the song in the film are excellent, which is probably one reason why "Blood Red Roses" comes off so convincingly as something "traditional." Other folk revival singers followed Lloyd with similar renditions, such as Paul Clayton, who, being present as a performer at the Moby Dick premiere in New Bedford (Coltman 2008:68-9), was inspired to record it in 1956 on an album in reference to the Moby Dick theme. Apparently it gained such momentum in the late 50s Revival that Alan Lomax included "Blood Red Roses" in The Folk Songs of North America (1960), stating that the song was, "As sung by A.L. Lloyd and Paul Clayton, rarely published." Thus gaining the seal of such luminaries as Lloyd, Clayton, and Lomax, along with the legitimizing effect of popular media, "Blood Red Roses" became a convincing simulacrum of a shanty that once was. Doerflinger, the collector whose book had introduced the shanty to revival singers, recognized this. In the revised edition of his text, 1972, he added to his notes about "Come Down, You Bunch of Roses": "I doubt that the movie version, with a 'blood-red roses' chorus, is authentic folklore."

"Blood Red Roses," however, had already been canonized in the Revival, and Hugill was not immune to its influence. In SFSS, he gave what we have seen to be the original refrain, "Come down, ye bunch o' roses." His version was distinctive, having come from the Barbadian shantyman, Harding. However, he gave an alternate title for the shanty as "Blood-Red Roses." It is a clear possibility that that came from the influence of Lloyd and company, as Hugill mentions both the Moby Dick film and The Singing Sailor LP. He goes one step further in remarking that, "it appears to be a British shanty, probably derived from a song about Napoleon and the British soldiers—'Redcoats' or 'Blood-red Roses' as they were called on account of the red jackets they invariably wore" (1994:274-5).   While I find that to be pure speculation with little to support it, I am nonetheless comforted by the fact that the reader is free to take or leave this opinion. What really counts, Harding's shanty, is there to speak for itself. Moreover, while Hugill did not believe the chantey had African-American origins, on the grounds that "bunch o' roses" was allegedly a phrase characteristic of "true English folk-song," he did allow that, "Of course, the shanty may have passed, like many others, through the Gulf Ports' shanty mart" (275). However, in his 1969 book, Hugill switched over to calling the shanty just "Blood Red Roses" (also preferring the phrase, "hang down"). More disappointingly, the notated tune now pretty much matched Lloyd's rendition. With it, the "Redcoats" theory is stated as strong probability, with none of the other messy details about the shanty's provenance. In addition, he cites "Blood Red Roses" as supposed evidence that this shanty, being allegedly about Napoleon, may be one of the few extant shanties to have originated in the 18th century (1969:33-4; 184). I believe this is an unfortunate case of faith in the Revival dynamics being so strong as to compromise even the "last" representative of pre-Revival shanties. ...

*snip*

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 12:53 PM

Hi,
If anyone has read my posts you might be aware that I strongly believe the phrase "blood red roses" to be of no consequence (and "hang down"/"go down" is a further red herring) because more than likely AL Lloyd (or someone very close to him) made it up. The question then is only: what did it mean to AL Lloyd? (And do we really care?) One can keep the faith in folk heros and hold out on judgement, hoping that somebody, somewhere sang it that way and somehow only transfered that knowledge to Lloyd...or we can play the surrender game of "We may never know" -- which, strictly speaking is true, but that goes without saying for most discussions of this sort, and it does not mean that we can't weigh the evidence and come up with pretty strong suspicious about what went down!

I'm working on an article right now where, incidentally, in one passage, I've laid out my "argument" about "blood red roses." I'm gonna post it next to see if it will satisfy anyone. My challenge to anyone is whether they can actually provide any positive proof that "blood red roses" preceded Lloyd...or any other positive argument (in lieu of "proof") as to why we should think it within the realm of reasonable possibility that the chantey existed that way before the Folk Revival.

Gibb

P.S. Though my tone may sound quite formal in quirky, know that I'm quite jolly right now

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 12:43 AM

The MEANING of BRR is that it is a work song. A shanty. A means to an end.
If you wanna know what the phrase means, ask him wot wrote it.
If it helps you to have an idea as to the meanings of phrases you sing, all I can suggest is to pick one.
You are as likely to be right as not, and it only matters to you unless you choose to explain it all, at length, to your audience.
In that case, you are as likely to be wrong, as not.
Sods law.
I have heard all sorts of ideas concerning meanings. Some interesting, some really thought provoking, some downright ridiculous.
But in the long run its only your own idea that matters to you when you are singing.
MY idea of Blood Red Roses is that it is a mondegreen.
The sailors of old were apt to suffer somewhat from sun, wind & weather, so the actual original correct phrase was.........
Blood Red Noses.
(An' if ya believe dat, den you is in need of more help dan Mudcat c'n offa, matey)

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:33 PM

We seem to have be getting away from origin/meaning of BldRdRoses on to the technique of shanty singing — a bit of drift almost demanding a new thread of its own, maybe?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 06:37 PM

Ya, fairly self centered seeing as you asked. If you're gonna sing the song, sing it, keep it & don't let the chorus singers take it away on you. If they do it's not their fault, it's yours. When the song's yours you should be able to keep it & lead those that follow.

Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 06:28 PM

Joining in, yes. But not so welcome when they sing the verses.
Shanties are mostly call and response and when I am leading, I do the calling.
I usually sing with a crew of between 2 - 8 folkies.
It gets very hard having to lead when I have just finished belting my lungs out in the preceeding chorus, so joining in is VERY welcome on those occasions, I can assure you.
But I also like things done "right",
In these days of modern shanty singing, one has to employ the old shantymans art of gaugeing the size of the job with regards to the ability of the "tools" (singers) to do it. Then you pick your shanty accordingly.
That is why I rarely lead some shanties which are known by all, preferring to sing an obscure version, or another song entirely, merely to keep the "chorus singers" from mucking it up.
If I muck it up, it dont matter so much. The chorus is still there and I will repeat a line or use a non rhyming verse (which is my idea of why certain shanties have been written down that way) when my mind goes blank memory wise.
Sometimes it is much better to have a vigin crew for back up.
You just try singing "Raise tacks, sheets and mains'l haul" when every other bugger is shouting "Bound for Valliperaisa round the Horn" :-(
I guess my point is: When I am leading a shanty it is MY song, and I will try to sing it MY way, rather than just picking a song that everone will know and can perform quite well without me.
How self centered is that?
(Mebbe that is why so many consider Uncle Stan & others like him as "egotistical", huh?)

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 01:25 AM

If someone wants to sing, who the hell am I to tell them not to. Ought to be happy that's there's a voice that wants to join in

Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 01:07 AM

I take your point, Dead Horse. But perhaps originally some shantyman, looking for a new refrain the crew could work to for a shanty tune which had just come into his head, might echo an order he had just heard the bosun [or on a merchamtman more probably the mate] yell out, of 'Go down below, you bloody red-roses", to be taken up by the hauling or heaving crew as their chorus: I mean, all shanty words have to come originally into the shantyman's head from somewhere, don't they? Like I say: just [another] thought...

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:56 PM

Dead Horse -- I second the motion. Same deal in "John Kanaka," "John Cherokee"...

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 04:23 PM

.....and surely as such would be for the bosun to order, not for the crew to say, and certainly not in song.
A simple "Shift yer arse, soldier boy" rather than ten verses of shanty.
No?
What I dont understand, particularly with this shanty, is why do so many include "You pinks and posies" as chorus, rather than shantyman only? The chorus is "Go down (Hang down) you blood red roses, Go down (Hang down)" repeated ad infinitum. And only that. At a steady meter. Shantyman inbetween. That, to my mind, is how it should be sung. Not the way so many "club singers" do it.
Same goes for Sally Racket. The chorus is "Haul 'em away" No more, no less. Keep ya "Hauley hi ohs" to yerself when I am aboard, matey!

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 10:54 PM

In all this long thread, no-one seems to have made what seems to me one obvious suggestion as to a possible meaning: based on the well-known fact [cf Bonnie Bunch of Roses-o] that Bunch·Of·Roses was a nickname for redcoats in Napoleonic times, could not the crew of a merchantman being used as troop-carrier have been telling the soldiers maybe wandering the decks for some air to get back down below [hence 'Go down'], out of the way, & not obstruct them by crowding the decks while they were busy hauling — the 'Blood-red' being an aphetic [demanded by the rhythm rather than as bowdlerisation] for 'You blood[y] RedRoses': so that the meaning would be, "We're busy doing our job hauling here & you are obstructing us, so get back down below out of our way, you bloody soldiers!"?

Just a thought...

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 07:40 PM

Nope, unless they all had the pox.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Allan C.
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:07 PM

I will admit to not having read all of the posts here; but the question immediately made me think of the red rose of the royal house of Lancaster and wondered if there could be any sort of connection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:44 PM

refresh for Bruce!

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:40 AM

It is a great song with a jerky little tune and a strange chorus.

Fingerprints of Bert? I bet!

L in C

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:23 AM

Gibb, somebody around here must know if Hugill and Lloyd were in contact before 1956. I think your skepticism overall is well grounded, and I do agree that, yes, Lloyd may have been responsible for the "blood-red." The evidence isn't conclusive in either direction. And if experience is any indicator, the likelihood that the mystery will be solved is remote.

I met Hugill on two occasions, once in 1988. At that time he expressed his opinion that Lloyd's versions of sea songs ("Farewell, My Dearest Nancy" in particular) were not always quite authentic.

Perhaps Hugill saw "Moby Dick" (it's hard to imagine that he didn't!) and, if he didn't know Lloyd at the time, simply assumed that "Blood-Red" Roses was the "Yank" version!

Hugill was indeed the last and greatest living authority on sea shanties, but some of his statements were apparently hasty. He wrote for a popular rather than a scholarly audience, and while he certainly did try to get things right, he wasn't always sufficiently critical of secondary sources.

"Overlooked by most collectors" is strictly true, though it tells us nothing about the song's popularity. Doerflinger included it (through Silsbee), but it's absent from other important collections like those of Whall, Bullen, Robinson, King, Colcord, C. F. Smith, and Sampson. As I've said, Carpenter and Gordon don't seem to have collected it either.

Hugill's statement that the song itself (however red the roses may have been) was "popular among Liverpool seamen" is evidence (though not proof) because was a Liverpool man himself and in a position to know. OTOH, he may simply have been told by a shipmate, "Sure, we all knew that one!" We don't know. We probably never will. And it may not make much difference.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: GUEST,Gibb
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:29 PM

Lighter, thanks for the good discussion and for checking out the original edition of Hugill.

I'm not sure how Hugill would have influenced Lloyd if his book didnt come out until afterwards, unless they would meet up sometimes. (I would guess that around that time period when the film came out, Hugill was teaching at the Outward Bound Academy in Aberdovey. I honestly have no idea though if he would have been socializing with Lloyd.) But the fact that Hugill mentions both recordings by Lloyd (the film and the album) suggests they were an influence on him.

In my opinion, Hugill's book is the single best collection of chanteys. However, after reading it a lot you tend to notice certain places where he takes wild guesses but doesnt ~quite~ admit he's guessing! Case in point: He says this chantey was "overlooked by most collectors." What does that mean? Why say "most" when he could just admit, "The only other collection [excluding ON BOARD THE ROCKET, not a collection] that I've seen this in is Doerflinger's." He's intentionally ambiguous where information is lacking, and sometimes our faith in him (after all, he knew more than just about anybody) lets us give him the benefit of the doubt. Another example: On what basis does he say "it appears to be a British shanty"; he seems to be reasoning that the Napoleon theory is what makes it so.

As I said, I think Hugill's 1969 text is a flip flop after he has well and truly convinced himself of the Napoleon thing. The 1961 book was all about presenting all the various possibilities and dirty variations, whereas the 1969 book is about trying to give succinct "answers" to things. (Note for instance how in that book he had become convinced that he found an Italian source for "Rueben Ranzo".)

As for him getting stanzas from a movie, he really doesnt take many, and I dont think they're significant. His theme (and unique tune, in the earlier book) comes from Harding. It has "bound out for Iquique Bay," which is what marks it as a "Cape Horner" shanty; that also explains the idea "very popular in Liverpool ships" (i.e. those bound round Cape Horn in the nitrate trade). The only lines in common with the film are "Boots and clothes in pawn" and "around Cape Stiff we all must go", all regular cliches that are in a dozen other halyard shanties in his book.

Burl Ives recorded a very safe sounding "Go down you RED red roses" on an album in 1956. I would guess that was also derivative of the film version (or Lloyd's SINGING SAILOR). MOBY DICK was released in June of that year.

I have also thought that Lloyd must have used Doerflinger as a source, based on some of the tunes he has used, for example on songs "Paddy West" and "Do Me Ama".

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:24 PM

Having checked out, on a hunch, the unabridged version of Hugill (not the abridged recent edition), I now think it more likely that Hugill influenced Lloyd rather than the other way around.

Of the ten stanzas Hugill prints, five were sung by Lloyd on "The Singing Sailor." Hugill also says that the song was "very popular in Liverpool ships, yet overlooked by most collectors." That suggests to me that he' personally heard several versions, and it seems unlikely (though certainly not impossible) that he would include stanzas that he'd recently learned from a Hollywood movie.

Besides indicating, in brackets, that "blood-red roses" is a variant of "bunch o' Roses [sic]," Hugill also prints a slightly different tune with the words printed as "Hang down, ye blood-red roses."
Again, it seems doubtful that he would have included the words "blood-red" if he'd only heard them in the movies.

In "Shanties and Sailor's Songs" (1969), Hugill again prints "Hang down, ye blood-red roses," this time as his only version.

Lloyd recorded "Blood-Red Roses" on LP at least three times that I can think of between ca1956 and ca1970, making his recordings the most likely source of most revival versions.

Burl Ives also recorded the shanty at some point, with some quite different lyrics, source unknown. It would be very interesting to know where he got them from. Ives seems to have sung "bunch of roses," as far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:46 PM

That's a d@^n good question, Guest Gibb, and one somebody seems never to have asked.

Alan Lomax printed the song ("Blood Red Roses") in "Folk Songs of North America" (1960) with this fascinating note: "As sung by A.L. Lloyd and Paul Clayton, rarely published."

Lomax also says, without saying how he could know, "Heard among Negro crew on American ships in the 1820s."

Lloyd & MacColl also recorded it on their album "The Singing Sailor" released, I believe, not long after the movie.

A quick search of my shanty books and a look at Google suggests that "Go Down, You Blood-Red Roses," as commonly sung, was largely Lloyd's creation. I find nothing like it in the online catalogue of the James Madison Carpenter collection, and I do not recall seeing it in the manuscripts of Robert W. Gordon.

There is a possibility that he learned it from Hugill, but I don't know if the two were in contact in 1956.

It certainly may be that Lloyd got the song from Doerflinger and made the roses "blood-red" himself. And never mentioned it.

You know: like the king's wine in "Sir Patrick Spens."

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: GUEST,Gibb
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:10 PM

Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but I'm curious if the collective wisdom could shed light on something....

My question is whether anyone has any source for this "blood red roses" line that can't be traced back to A.L. Lloyd?

Most of this thread has been a discussion of what the phrase "blood red roses" means in its supposed chantey context. One recurring point, that it doesnt really matter whether it meant anything (i.e. it was simply meant to function), I can agree with. I can also agree with the point that, nonetheless, it is interesting and perhaps useful to know what such phrases mean. I'll add that it is of little use to try to look at the content of solo verses to get at the "meaning" of a chantey chorus -- don't even try!

Where I think this thread might have been damned from the beginning is in assuming the line "blood red roses" had much of a history as chorus (and then trying to figure out what that history was: Napoleon, red coated soldiers, whale blood, etc.)

My attempt to put together a chronology of sources for this chantey:

1. 1879, Captain R.C. Adams, ON BOARD THE ROCKET, gives the chorus (no tune) of "Come Down, you bunch of roses"

2. 1935, an Alan Lomax recording made in the Bahamas, "Come Down, You Roses"

3. 1951 Doerflinger, SHANTYMEN AND SHANTYBOYS, prints a text and melody for "Come Down, You Bunch of Roses." Whereas other chanteys in his collection are from recordings he made in New York, this one, which he calls "very rare," he got from an 1893 manuscript of a notation of a sailor from Mass. He had never seen nor heard this chantey otherwise.

...So far, no "Blood Red Roses". And it's "Come Down," not "Go Down" (the meaning of the latter was the subject of another Mudcat thread). Then...

4. 1956 A.L. Lloyd appears in the film MOBY DECK performing a very excellent chantey: "Go Down, You Blood Red Roses." The solo verses are standard chantey fare. His tune matches Doerflinger's book, which he would have had access to. In the same year, he recorded it on an album THE SINGING SAILOR. Other folk revival singers follow suit, such as Paul Clayton who recorded it the same way in 1956 on an album in reference to the Moby Dick theme. (Perhaps the idea that "blood red roses" has something to do with whaling comes from this association.)

5. 1961, Stan Hugill, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. This one has the original refrain, "Come down, ye bunch o' roses." He gives an alternate ~title~ as "Blood Red Roses," but this would seem to be the influence of his having seen/heard both of the AL Lloyd recordings (which he mentions). His version actually comes from the Barbadian chanteyman Harding. It's tune is a bit different from the Doerflinger/Lloyd tune.

6. 1962, an Alan Lomax recording from Trinidad or school girls singing "Coming Down with a Bunch of Roses" It's a play song, not a chantey, but other play songs of the Caribbean seem to have shared their source with chanteys (e.g. "Little Sally Rackett").

7. 1969, Stan Hugill, SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS. In this book, he has now switched over to "Blood Red Roses" (also preferring, "Hang Down"). His transcription of the tune has miraculously changed now to pretty much match the Doerflinger/Lloyd tune. Plus, all over the book he keeps mentioning "Blood Red Roses" as supposed evidence that this chantey came into being in the 18th century, that it was all about Napoleon, etc.

8. 1972, Doerflinger, SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN. This is the revised edition of his 1951 text. In the appendix, he has a note: "I doubt that the movie version, with a "blood-red roses" chorus, is authentic folklore." The reference is obviously to the spurious versions spawned by Moby Dick.

So, a question and a comment:

Does anyone have any source with "blood red roses" that pre-dates 1956 (Lloyd)? Bert Lloyd did ship on a whaler for a period; the question would be whether he got the bloody ruddy chorus from the oral tradition, or if he contrived what is now our ~new~ oral tradition?

If you buy my argument (so far) that "go down you blood red roses" has no historical validity (its "meaning" having existed solely in Bert Lloyd's brain)...and if you are the type inclined to speculate on meaning of lyrics...you can focus on "come down, you bunch of roses." For example, "bunch of roses" is a term of endearment; "come down" is an admonition to come over and play, etc etc

Gibb

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:25 PM

Those verses were recorded by Matthews Southern Comfort on their first LP (1971-ish). I don't know whether they're authentic; they seem to have got them from Richard Farina (see L R Mole's post above).

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM

Hi E & Abby. Abby here are a few (don't know if they're new or not) of the verses that I've been singing since the mid to late 70's. I no longer remebber where they came from. If these are trad verses they might give more to ponder on. If not, I still like them. I'm not getting into this above me. Hope to see you both sometime soon. Barry


Around no man's land we'll dance around

go down blub,blub,blub

And drive the roses underground

go down........


Around the German land we'll go

For ashes makes the flowers grow

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

EBarnacle

The problem with all this speculation is that in addition to the folk process on the song - so it is with the ancilliary data. AND sailors no doubt revelled in the multiplicity of reasons for the naming or referrencing. It sort of makes it more relevant or funny or neat depending on your reason for liking the wealth of connections. Stan Hugill's explanantion of the pox is my prime candidate, but I would be surprised not to find others riding alongside.

Witness the oft heard shanty lines about "not bothering with women and being safer off Cape Horn". I defy you not see duality in that one sentence, and sailors were no dumber than us.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

To get back to the original question, the way I heard it, the Blood Red Roses were the afterguard of a merchant ship. Their extra weight would be needed to add that last little bit of haul or weight to sweat a sheet or halliard as they hung down from a really tough short haul.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM

Of course you would know best CRANKEE YANKEE Stan Hugill was only a REAL shantyman. Not a folk club singer.
Dave

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses (zersungen)
From: Abby Sale
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 10:55 AM

I was having a whip round the web & also looking for some newly found verses for BRR and found this page: CZTERY REFY - Blood Red Roses

I'm wondering where this long mondegreen could have come from. Babel Fish doesn't do Polish so it couldn't be that. Anyone have any notion if these verses were actually trad?

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:23 AM

Although there would be fewer men available there would still be plenty (unless casualties had been high). In a normal quarter-bill (a list of where sailors would serve in particular circunstances) usually two of each gun-crew would serve as sail trimmers and would be called away from their gun by an appropriate order such as 'hands to make sail'. There was a similar arrangement for boarders (to form a boarding party or to repel boarders) and for firemen (to put out a fire).

I agree that in some circumstances shanties would have been extremely useful, such as in sailing a prize back to port (when very reduced crews were used), but I've not read any report of anything like this happening. As sailors were interchangable between the merchant fleet and the Navy, they would have been used to all the ways of merchant ships. Tradition is a very powerful thing in the Royal Navy, and it may be that it was just 'not the done thing'.

Les

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:08 AM

I have a question. I agree that shanties were not used in the navies because they had so many men to do the work. However, there was one time in which they were undermanned for sailing the ship and that was when the extra men were doing the other jobs they were there for, i.e., fighting.

When the ship was engaged in action most of those extra men were busy loading and firing and the sailing was left suddenly to far fewer men. they probably wished for shanties then though adrenaline may have made up the difference.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 May 01 - 07:33 AM

Just to help clear up one or two points about the lack of shanties in the Royal Navy (and possibly in other Navies).

Warship crews are much more numerous than Merchant crews, far more than would be needed to sail the ship (on a typical frigate 300 crew for a ship that you could sail with 30). So co-ordinated effort was not so much needed. On the occassions that it was, a fiddler (if available)could be used to play a hornpipe, or the marine drummer could be used.

Discipline was much tighter. Look at some of the shanties sung and see if the officers would have thought them 'appropriate'. Officers usually came from a different class if a very class conscious society.

Sailors were encouraged to dance and sometimes to sing what have come to be known as 'forebitters' such as Spanish Ladies.

Les

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:01 PM

Hugill does mention in his introduction to Songs of the Sea that the earliest reference he could find to shanty singing (a crew pulling on a rope, with a lead singing coordinating them) was in the book of a Dominican friar, one Felix Fabri of Ulm, Germany, "who in 1493 sailed aboard a Venetian galley to Palestine."

Let's all raise a glass to Brother Felix!

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 01 - 12:46 PM

Gnome, I have read that the Royal Navy had fiddlers aboard and not singers. Also before Napoleonic times, I don't think there were any real work shantys. Sea songs, yes, but not work songs. At least that's how I understand it.

Mr. Cranky, I have read that the words to Greenland Whale Fisheries have been found on a broadside dating back to the 18th century. I would imagine singers have changed the year in the song depending on what year they were singing it.

'Course I am no expert either, I'm just an unfrozen caveman. ;-)

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Melani
Date: 14 May 01 - 12:30 PM

Just for the record, it's really hard to sing "Row, Bullies, Row" (or anything else) as slow as Sea Scouts row. As for the history and meanings of all this stuff, Cranky Yankee, if we weren't all into history and trivia we probably wouldn't be here.

And I'm quite sure you're an original, not a replica.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 14 May 01 - 12:08 PM

Shields Folk

No I don't know how 19th century folk felt when their loved ones went to sea. But, I am no replica of anything. I do the job, as much as any "old timer chanteyman" ever did. There isn't as much danger in sailing as there once was, we have diesel auxiliaries, great radio communication, accurate(?)weather forecasting, etc, but that does not detract from my qualification as a chanteyman. Why don't you do as I did, learn how to sail, if possible, on a large seagoing vessel, get enough experience to be in charge of whatever operation you're engaged in and use chanteys in their practical (as opposed to entertaining) application. Then you'll be a chanteyman, and not a replica. The learning how is as much fun as the doing, so what's keeping you? Just ask anyone in Newport Rhode Island that knows me and they will assure you that I'm a one of a kind ME.

I'm going to modify a statement I made previously. While I don't care where the lyrics of any chantey, I use, come from, I' think it is very important to acknowledge where the entire IDEA of using music as a tool came from. I'm going to start a new thread right after I submit this one. I truly hope that it sparks some lively discussion, but, please, let's keep it civil.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 May 01 - 10:05 AM

The history is important to us. It may not mean much to Cranky Yankee because to him the songs are just tools but to us they mean something more than just tools we don't use. For some of us these songs are a connection to a life we cannot live. For some it is a chance to fit in with a group. And for all of us it is a form of music that we enjoy, that resonates within us.

For many reasons we want to know more. Our speculations are just that, speculations. They are fun and raise more questions than they answer but they satisfy us. And someone might have another piece to this jigsaw puzzle, something others may have overlooked. All contributors are welcome. Denigrators do not have to read the thread.

As far as Row, Bullies, Row is concerned I don't believe I have ever heard it with a long Roooow in it. I have only heard it in 3/4 time with short consonants and in my opinion it is excellant for rowing or paddling if you are in a hurry to get somewhere.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 01 - 09:39 AM

Sophocleese
the Horn was a double entedre in many shanties
and Wales probably had a lot of Pox in cardiff and Swansea
the orginator of a shanty may not have recognised his song after sailors had customised it and misheard it and it got bowdlerised by the pressure of puritanical moores
I find a little background is useful - how many times have we seen a video of Uncle Stan singing Rueben Ranzo - - he didn't have the puff for every word as he pulled on the rope.
I once heard a well known shanty crew sing so fast they couldn't get the words out
the yard arm would have been in orbit on his ship.

YEA it does matter they were songs with a purpose and whatever we do to them we are fools to forget their origins.
we are folk singers aren't we?
call it "method" singing if you like.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:28 AM

Damn, clicked "submit" too soon. As I was saying, before I rudely interrupted myself, is that finding out the meanings to these songs does increase our understanding, and even if that understanding is not of earth shattering significance, it, at least, satisfies one's curiosity about what the chantey's original composer meant, and in what historical context he was working in. Chanteys were such great outlets for expressing their hardships, their feelings about women, their complaints and praises for various people, I have to believe that the chanteymen who made them up or adapted songs from shore DID care about what they were singing. Others who sang them might not have, as long as they were the right tools for the job. It looks like in this case, though, we might not be able to separate the theories from facts. A worthwhile question and interesting responses.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:13 AM

Of course, in time the meanings of the words to chanteys like "Blood Red Roses" are lost on sailors, and they just want a good chantey to set the rhythm, but at one time this song must have meant something to the chanteyman who made it up, and others who might have changed words over time. Fi8nding out it's mea

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Margo
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:21 AM

Hey Yankee, there's a Newport in Washington state where I am.... Which Newport are you referring to?

Margo

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 May 01 - 09:23 PM

Cranky Yankee, thanks for your information. I just wanted to know because when I sing a song I like to know what the words mean. With the phrase "blood red roses" I had a mystery, they didn't seem to mean literally blood red roses, unless its a carry over from an old pruning song, but instead signify something else. I wanted to know what that might be. I thinks it's interesting that there are several theories. Even that is information. Thanks to all who have written and are thinking about this question.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 May 01 - 08:21 PM

My point exactly, its a replica and you are, not wishing to offend, a replica Chanteyman. And of course i'm realy jelous

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:49 PM

Hey, Shield Folk, what makes you think that "Professional Chanteyman" or Professional Sailor" are things of the past? I not only was "HMS" Rose's first Boatswain, and chanteyman, but my wife and I rigged it when it was brand new, in Lunenburg Nova Scotia. Think about it. Oh, in case you'r going to say that Chanteys were never used on warships, you're absolutely right. Rose is not a warship, it has a U.S. commercial ticket and is manned by a civilian crew. it is a REPLICA of an 18th century 20 gun ship, (6th rate) and has never been used in combat, and has never fired anything heavier than a cork from it's cannons.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:30 PM

Sorry for the cranky coment yank but the days of sail are really lost in time. You may come as close as any of us are likely to get but what people believed in the 19th century and beyond are lost to us. How many times have you left port with your family not knowing if they will ever hear from you again.These songs are a very dirty window into the past.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:21 PM

DON'T TRUST EXPERTS, THINK FOR YOURSELVES (and that goes for my expertise also)

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:20 PM

Just to change the subject, Sung properly, Row Bullies Row is an excellent chantey for synchronizing the stroke where multiple oarsmen are in use. But even if you don't use it for that. Take this into consideration. Do any of you dance the "Waltz"? This song is (you all must agree) written in 3/4 or waltz time. Right? Well "Choose your partners" for the waltz and take notice of where the second verse starts in the Waltz step? It's not the same place is it? O.k some of you use it as a capstan chantey. I don't know why with all those "Darling" capstan chanteys around . But, I accept the fact that you do. Now, take note of how the second verse starts. IT'S NOT ON THE "PUSH" STROKE, IS IT? As for pumping, any rhythm will do, I guess.

Fact: "Liverpool Judies" is a generic term for "contrary wind" as well as "Ladies of the night". So don't you think that "Row" and "Liverpool Judies" just might have something to do with the use that this chantey is put to? or are you going to ignore the obvious in order to continue singing this song to the wrong kind of rhythm and meter?. It occures to me that "Contrary Wind" and "Rowing" means that the crew is involved in "Kedging", wouldn't that make some kind of sense? As I said previously, find a rowboat, get in it and row around while singing "Row Bullies Row" without the long ROOO....................w row bullies row. and just keep a steady rhythm. That should make a believer out of you.

If any of you happen to be in Newport, give me a call and I'll take you for a row around the harbor. I'm in the phone book.

? Think about it. Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:13 PM

the professionals didn't fart about playing at sailors. And its there lives and loves and songs I'm interested in not yours

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:02 PM

Do any of you know who invented the crosscut saw, or the chisel, or "C"clamps, Huh? I use them all the time in my work and don't give a damn where or how they originated. The same goes for the Chantey "Blood Red Roses". It's a very usefull tool in my "Professional Chanteyman" occupation for sweating up topsail yards, which is probably the heaviest halyard operation on a sailing vessel. As for the lyrics, The words to the verses are completely unimportant. The form and rhythm (or lack thereof) is all important.

As for song lyrics and which one is the authentic one. That too is a pointless argument. Take "Greenland Whale Fisheries" for example. The date of composition is right there in the song. Which version is the authentic one? There's no doubt in my mind that this song improved remarkably as the years rolled on. I pretty much sing the 1863 version. THIS IMPROVEMENT BY SUBSEQUENT SINGERS OR AUTHORS IS CALLED "THE FOLK PROCESS". POersonally, I don't believe that there is a "proper or authentic" version of a folk song. So you Folk music purists (folk music fascists?) have fun arguing about which vrsion is the real one. I DON'T CARE.

Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 May 01 - 06:43 PM

I could, of course be wrong. I had heard, "blood red roses" at the time of the Napoleonic Wars was what Frenchmen called British soldiers. I also think I saw the expression somewhere in a broadside about the Battle of Belle Alliance (or Waterloo, as the English have it). Of course, that doesn't explain how it would get into a 'horner. If anyone knows, I would welcome correction.