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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Declan Date: 30 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM I'm convinced it's passion's pledge (a) because it rhymes and (b) because it makes sense - Passion play doesn't mean anything to me, Passion's pledge does. I've always heard the other lines as : I gave her gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret sign, That's known to the artist who has seen the true gods of sound and stone, And words and tint, I did not stint for I gave her poems to say ... The "words and tint" seem to work as either the end of the previous line or the beginning of the next one, ie I didn't stint on the words or the tint when I was writing the poems for her. I learned this mainly from Luke Kelly's singing, but I'm not 100% sure I have Luke's words verbatim, |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Dec 02 - 05:46 AM I wasn't citing Folksongs and Ballads as validating the variant, but as one of the reasons it might have spread. If Luke Kelly sang "pledge", that's a pretty strong indication thta that's how Kavanagh wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: banjomad (inactive) Date: 29 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM This morning, 29/12/2002, on his radio programme Ciaran Macmathune played the Dubliners version of the song as sung by the late and much missed Luke Kelly, Luke used to sing ' pledge ', I feel that this is correct because Paddy Kavanagh gave the song to Luke himself, Cheers, Dave |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Cluin Date: 29 Dec 02 - 02:16 AM Sounds good to me, Murray. I don't doubt but that you have the right of it. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:14 PM Folk Songs and Ballads Popular in Ireland (the alleged source of the DT text) is full of ghastly errors and mis-attributions, and should only be used as a source of material by people who are unlucky enough to have no alternative. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:05 PM He may indeed have written pledge, but arguing that he must have, because being a craftsman in his writing he'd have felt compelled to put in the rhyme there - that just doesn't add up. A craftsman poet could be quite capable of deciding to surprise the reader (or listener) by consciously refrainint from using the expected rhyme. In this instance, you hear "pl", you assume it'll be "pledge", and then it isn't after all. So maybe he did it that way; and maybe he didn't, and the only way to settle it is to check with what the man wrote, and how he said it or sang it later on as well, because poets quite often change their own words, the same way people who write songs do. I note that in the Ossian songbook (vol 3 Songs and Ballads popular in Irekand) it has "play", and that might be a factor in explaining why "play" seems to be more common when peopel sing it. But of course John Loesberg editing that must have got it from somewhere. Isn't there anyone out there with Kavanagh's collected poems on their shelf? |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: JedMarum Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:12 AM I sang this for a while ... but it's too weird for me. I guess I just don't get it! |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,MCP Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:34 AM Online sites with versions claiming to be from the Collected Poems have: passion's pledge and: ... To the artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint. I did not stint for I gave her poems to say. ... Mick |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:52 AM I heard it as IN words and tint-changes it a little. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:41 PM After spending some time on the net researching this, I am pretty well convinced that Kavanagh did in fact write "pledge " and not "play", although nobody has come forward with irrefutable evidence. I believe that the rhyming scheme throughout the poem is consistent with him having writen "pledge". If he had written "play" it would be totally at odds with the rest of the poem, and I think he was far too skilled a craftsman for that to have happened. I suggest that Dick make it a priority to amend the faulty version in the DT forthwith. Admittedly , there are many other erroneous lyrics in the DT, but surely "Raglan Road " above all others merits the courtesy of accurate transcripion. As an aside, Cluin raises an interesting point above concerning the "true gods " line. Firstly let me say that I think Cluin is way off beam with "sound and time". I have always had difficulty in making a great deal of sense of this particular couplet, until, while researching my original query, I realised that the version in the DT is actually nonsensical. "I gave her gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret signs, That's known to the artists who have known The true gods of sound and stone. And her words and tint without stint I gave her poems to say With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May. And her words and tint without stint. What's that about? I believe that what Kavanagh originally wrote was : "I gave her gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret signs, That's known to the artists who have known The true gods of sound, and stone, and words, and tint. Without stint, I gave her poems to say With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May. i.e, "The true gods of sound, and stone, and words, and tint." refers to the Muses of music, sculpture, poetry and painting. Only with this interpretation does it begin to make sense. Of course, when singing the song, it is practically impossible to convey this emphasis....... Murray |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,Cluin Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 PM "Passion Play" has a totally different meaning--not consistent with the song and likely yet another folk tradition/mondegreen that got passed on. As I said above, Dick Gaughan sang it as "pledge" and I know of his high standard and committment to tradition, so I trust his research. He stated on the lyric sheet that it was a poem by Patrick Kavanaugh. But there is another line in that song that I've heard a couple of different ways. It's the "true gods of sound and.." line. I've heard it as "sound and stone" or "sound and time". Now "time" is a near-rhyme to "sign" in the line above... |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:30 AM What a poet originally wrote is interesting, but if a song gets into the way of being transmitted orally, that's what really matters. I very much doubt if most people who sing Ragan Road learnt it from print, and that's a mark of what a great song it is. For a song to reach the level of being passed on orally, so that everyone knows it but they don't know where they learnt it, I think that's the crown of respect for any songmaker. But it would be interesting to know what the man wrote. The fact that "pledge" rhymes with "ledge" doesn't in any way settle it. Rhymes aren't compulsory, and he might easily have decided to dispense with the obvious rhyme, and make it "passion play", and rhyme it in the process with the next two lines instead. My feeling is that "play" works better, but maybe that's because it's how I've always heard it sung, I think. There's supposed to be a tape in the Radio Eireann archives somewhere of Patrick Kavanagh singing it - maybe that'd settle the argument. The other related thing here is whether to have it as "ledge", which probably is what he wrote, or "edge", which very often gets sung, and which I'm not sure isn't better. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:33 AM I am well aware that "pledge" is preferable when singing the song , but nobody has answered the original question, which was what did Kavanagh actually write? Murray |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Cluin Date: 26 Dec 02 - 08:51 PM I think it was answered a couple of times above. It's "pledge". Dick Gaughan sings it that way (there's a lyric sheet with 1977's "Kist o' Gold") and that's good enough for me. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 26 Dec 02 - 08:45 PM I cannot believe that nobody can answer the original question. Where are Malcolm and Masato when you really need them? (I know, they are both still on their Christmas vacation ....) Murray |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: boglion Date: 26 Dec 02 - 05:53 PM It DOES matter because Patrick Kavanagh was a serious poet who would have crafted every word. He does rhyme fairly meticulously and I would be surprised if it were "play" rather than "pledge". I sing the song myself after taking a long time to understand it and I use "pledge". I had a look on the internet and came across both versions as well as another less plausible version. There does not seem to be a definitive answer easily available. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 26 Dec 02 - 12:05 PM I would disagree there, Kevin. It does matter what the original words are, especially with an attributable poem such as Raglan Road That is not to say that one shouldn't change the words if one needs to, but I think it is important to know what you are changing. Maybe it doesn't matter in a pub session, but it does matter for a professional singer. It all boils down to a matter of respect. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Dec 02 - 02:03 PM It doesn't really much matter what the "original words" are - what matters is what works best, and what gets into the oral tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: banjomad (inactive) Date: 25 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM You should listen to the late Luke Kelly, he was given this song by Patrick Kavanagh himself. Cheers, Dave |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: mg Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:52 PM I've always heard pledge but of course the original words are out there somewhere. I like pledge better. mg |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM "Pledge" rhymes with "ledge" from the previous line. That's how I heard it. |
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Subject: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:23 PM I would like to know what Kavanagh actually wrote in this line. Is it "The worth of passion play" (as given in the DT) or is it "The worth of passion's pledge" (which I have heard sung by many singers) Some lucky person must have a first edition of Kavanagh's poems, or something equally authoritative? I have read all the Raglan Road discussions btw, (even contributed to some of them) so blue clickies to previous threads won't be of much help here .... Murray |
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