BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Auxiris
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

Just a quick word about ID here in France: foreigners are required to carry either a "carte de sejour" or a "carte de resident" which are both dandy photo ID cards, but they are not valid if not accompanied by the ID card holder's passport. When I recently had to apply for a new American passport--which is now done by mail--I was without a valid passport for over 10 days and could possibly have been thrown in jail if I'd been asked to produce my ID during the time my new passport was being processed. Used to be that one could renew a passport at the embassy in Paris and have the new one in about half an hour and now it takes a week and a half. The embassy employees claim that it's for our security, but I have doubts when I'm the one who takes all the risks! ID cards? Sure, no problem, but they should be good enough to identify someone without having to haul out a thing like a passport too!   

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

And they can use the cards to jimmy locks on doors to "secure" areas.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

It's a dreadful idea, I hate it, and I despise both the Liberal Government (and Conservatives) who think it's a good one. I especially hate David Blunkett, who is the MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN THE GOVERNMENT today here in the UK. I hope they nail his butt to the wall, and then stick a hot poker up it. (And that will now dispell any rumour that I don't have a temper, folks.)

This is Big Brother at his most dangerous. Many will suffer from this measure, and it will do absolutely NOTHING to protect anyone from so-called Terrorists. They are going to cost around sixty quid, or so I've recently read, so we'll pay to have our privacy invaded and our civil liberties taken away, along with punishing scores of people who are homeless, or elderly without sufficient pensions, or children with immigrant parents without papers. They could be denied medical help, and schooling, as well as any number of other facilites.

BE WARNED. 1984 will be here by 2012.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:04 AM

Its in the Queens speech so it will be law soon, I still reckon its a load of bollocks.
If a terrorist wants to blow up pariment or wahtevrr, having to carry an ID card is not going to stop him.
And its a complete waste of money, they reckon it will be £3 Billion, I'm sure it will go over budget, and be a total cock up, ie card readers won't work, information on the central computer will be wrong, computer will crash losing data etc.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: annamill
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:05 AM

Funny, I'm working at a Bank in New Jersey now, as a teller, and a Mexican worker came in to cash his check with a New Jersey Indentification card and I was instructed that we do not accept this card. He had no other Id. Makes me wonder how he got the NJ ID card in the first place. Maybe he had it at home. Point being, he had a New Jersey Indentification card. It had holograms and fancy-shmancy stuff all over it so it looks valid. I've never seen one before. Interesting.

I get a big brother feel from this discussion. Though it seems to be inobtrusive, it really is an important social change.

While most have some form of id already, it's not mandatory, is it?
I don't know. Scary to me.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:25 AM

The issue is of course not an id card but the freedom to use it and one's own pleasure, or the requirement to show it on demand to an agent of the state.

The former is a privilege of free people and the latter is the privelege of an authoritarian government.

Obviously fraud and deceit can make people think they should migrate from the former to the latter.

I think not.

There will always be someone to shout "Necessity!", but that don't make it so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:21 AM

60 million times 40 pounds each equals £2,400,000,000.

Just thought someone might do the math suggested in jOhn's initial post. Besides, being half drunk tonight, I figured a natural place to post would be one of his threads.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:35 AM

I was talking this over with my wife, who is somewhat 'civil liberties' inclined, and the point we couldn't appreciate was , why can you use your eftpos card anywhere in the western world and get prompt service and cash from a machine, (12000 miles from the account, in my case) your cellphone provider can place you within 500 yards, video hirers are pursued within hours, with a suremarket card, the supermarket can tell you (and maybe others) exactly what you buy.
YET overstayers and illegal immigrants are issued with drivers licences and forged passports get passed at airports, people who are not even officially in the country are on social security.
It is not surprising that governments want to get their act together, too. They are missing out on taxation opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM

Richard,

Bremen, Hamburg and Berlin are not only towns, but also 'Lands'. We call each of them a 'Stadtstaat' which is a good word to exercise the very slight differences in pronounciation.

Must be difficult for foreign-tonguers. Like 'This is the thing' for me, not to speak of 'William Venn was venturing...'

Wolfgang (smiling)

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM

From what I read the idea of identity cards in the UK is to try and combat benefit fraud and to stamp out 'health tourism' in the NHS. If they do anything for that then I'm for them.

With the number of computer systems in operation I would think that any government could find out a hell of a lot about an individual anyway and if you're a paranoid sort - what about CCTV - is it there to help keep us safer or to keep an eye on us?

Sure - there's a possibility that cards could be used for more sinister purpose but then, it's up to the electorate to ensure that any government going down that road was given a message that it ain't on.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:41 AM

As far as I can tell, having iris scans, fingerprints and, yes, your whole DNA, can only prove that you and the card go together. Whether that helps to prove your ID or not is quite a different issue, in exactly the same way that having a photo in a passport does not prove the passport is genuine. The only way to prove your ID is to link to a central database and check the information from there, rather than the information on the card. And to do that, all you need is a reference number. So why the insistance on smart cards? [Keeping the central database accurate and protected is a big issue in its own right.]

There is, at least in principle, a way to make a $5 bill unforgeable - you simply have to make any method of forging it cost $6. That does not apply to ID cards or passports, which have no upper limit to their value. Using 'smart cards' increases the cost of forgery, but will actually make the value of the forgery greater.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:12 PM

Thank you Wolfgang - I thought something looked wrong but the phonetic memory insisted.   Stadt and Staat are so close to homophones for the poor german speaker.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:14 PM

Try cashing a check in the U. S. without showing a driver's license or some other form of identification. I have no objection to I.D. cards.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: vectis
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Why don't they go the whole hog and have people's DNA profile embedded in the card. DNA is supposed to be unique, isn't it? It might even cause a momentary frisson of panic amongst wrongdoers...
until they find a way to forge them.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: GUEST,lurker
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:22 PM

I voluteer to watch the watchers who are watching those who watch....

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM

And then someone would need to watch the watchers too...

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:36 PM

I've carried one since I was ten (military brat) and currently carry one. What do they need to know that they haven't already gotten from some internet service provider that you signed up with? Is it just paranoia that everyone worries the gov't will know when and where and what type of feminine hygeine product they just purchased? My mother won't buy a car with the on-star system because she believes they could track her with the system. I asked her if she was about to do anything wrong and she said no. Then why are you worried about them tracking you? There are too many nutcases out there already who believe there are people tucked away in dark rooms reading everything that is written on web pages. The last estimate I heard was that if one wanted to surf the internet, every single page, it would take 40 years, day and night, no weekends or holidays. That was about ten years ago. We'd have to have half the population watching the other half.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM

The earlier comment about needing 3 forms of ID (including pictoral) reminds me of a little news article from some years back.

Person had a very special Govt photo ID, signed by the Prime Minister of the day, but as that was not on the lackey's list of permissible IDs he was asked to show his driver's licence. In those day's drivers icences did not have photos!! When the licence was produced the lackey was happy & the very important person who held one of a small handful of special IDs could go on his way.

Yes, I need a photo ID, but do I want an ID card that will be used by all govt agencies (just one number for all records in all depts, what a saving, only 1 number to remember!!) & other places & track me all over the place as was once proposed?

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: John J
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:58 AM

Surely these fancy hi-tech id cards will need employers / policemen / local goverment officers etc etc etc to have equally fancy hi-tech, and no doubt very expensive, card readers in order to authenticate the cards. That's only a minor gripe, but an observation by an small business owner who employs 4 people.

My main concern is the 'Big Brother' aspect. I just don't like the idea.

Very recently the subject of ID cards was mentioned (in the Commons I think). A couple of weeks later we legislation on the cards. Surely this has been in the pipeline for some considerable time.

I hear that from yesterday 10,000 people are going to be carrying cards to prove software / hardware. This sort of thing does not happen overnight. Why haven't we heard before? Perhaps the government were waiting for a good story to bury this matter.

John

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: MudGuard
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM

I am carrying an ID card - as I am obliged to carry it here in Germany (or a passport) -, and I have to use it quite rarely.

Mostly when flying to other countries (I could use a passport instead, but why bother to get a passport when I have an ID card anyway) or when I collect parcels at the post office when I was at work while they tried to deliver them.
Then of course I use it at the election office.

Post office is a private company, so no chance for the government to collect data (or just the same amount if I used a different way of identifying myself).
At the airport, the government would get the data from a passport as well.
At the elections, I could prove myself being me with a passport as well (independent of the means of identification, the govenment could collect the data [i.e. that I went to the election] from the tick made in the electors' list).

So I don't see how the government could collect more data because I carry an ID card compared to when I would not.

I have never been asked to show my ID card just because a police officer wanted to see it - whenever I used it, I could have used a passport instead...

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:30 AM

its not so much that I object about being able to prove I'm me (I have a photocard hanging round my neck right now which lets me through the door to the computer room) It's the thought that the government could look at my ID card and collate all sorts of data about me that's none of their business that worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: s6k
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:39 AM

bah! burn them

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:59 AM

I would be happy to carry an ID card if they worked and they were free but today in the Daily Mail it looks like its going to cost us money for a Government idea.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:58 PM

Damn straight, leprechaun! There will never be enough time or police available to even dream of apprehending all us dangerous radicals...ID cards or no ID cards. This gives me great comfort. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:27 PM

The bar code on the forehead... only sensible solution..

(just joking, of course)!!

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: leprechaun
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:05 PM

Well, speaking for the work-a-day jack-booted thug, I just wonder where we're going to find the time. I mean, say you start your day at 6:30 a.m., brief with your fellow thugs for half an hour, check your E-mail, get your patrol car ready, boot up your computer, go get a cup of coffee, that's another half hour, then you got two hours dealing with domestic disputes, three hours dealing with crazy people, an hour or so responding to alarms, two hours responding to traffic accidents, miscellaneous dog barking complaints, warrant arrests, forgeries, burglaries, shoplifters, loud party complaints...the list goes on and on. I tell you, in a ten hour day, once you get your reports finished, there's hardly any time left to oppress people. And now they expect us to start tracking ID cards? That's gonna suck.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM

Richard B., sense changing typo alert: 'Stadt' is 'town', 'Staat' is 'government(al), federal'

An ID-card is handy in those rare situations when you have to prove you are you. In examinations, for instance, though nobody over here is bothered if you show your driver's licence instead, or any other document with a picture in it.

Last time I showed my ID-card was just last week. I wanted to fetch my bicycle from the parking house for bicycles and had lost my parking ticket. Since I usually do not lock the bicycle I could have been athief just as well. They asked for some identification (not necessarily ID card) to make note of my name, just in case. It would have been a big bother without any identifying document at hand.

I'm curious, are you against identifying a person in general or against ID card as a mean to do that? What is the difference when the driver's licence is used instead of an ID-card except that not everybody has one?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:40 AM

We've had photos on driver's licences in BC since the 1970's. It is not a big deal, however, it is an extra expense to set up and operate, even more so if it becomes required of those that don't drive.

It has never stopped anyone from doing something stupid or causing fatalities with their motor vehicles, nor really assisted the police in apprehending hit and run drivers.

It used to be all that was required, for me to enter the US, but other than that, its been many years since I have had to show it to anyone (and a good thing too, its rarely a flattering picture).

I've never felt that it interferes with my privacy, after all, if a suspicious government wanted to keep tabs on a citizen, it is far easier to do it by tracing one's credit or bank card transactions, cell phone calls or computer activity.

If one were up to no good, there appears to be ways to avoid being traced, as all cards and documents etc. seem to be able to be forged or stolen, so I can't see the rationale either. However, as yet, there doesn't appear to be any psychic agency that can determine what might be in the mind of someone intent on criminal activity.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: GUEST,Looey
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:59 AM

That is really stupid! What I would have done was to raise all the outside ground levels by the windows so that people wouldn't have far enough to fall anymore and could not get killed that way. Then the windows could still be opened to provide ventilation.

Another thing that could be done would be to permanently mount safety nets below all windows above the first floor to catch jumpers. This should probably be done on every highrise building in the country. Think of the lives that would be saved.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:55 AM

I once worked for a company in FLorida who owned an older building with wooden-framed windows that slide open. This was very appreciated in theheat of their tropical summer.

One day an employee in the Los Angeles branch office committed suicide by jumping out a window. This was sad. But the management response to the situation was to nail all the windows shut in the building in Florida. Seriously.

Let the stupidity speak for itself....

That Politician's Syllogism is brill. Thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

EGO Card stands for Eternal Governmental Obfuscation, freda.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:41 AM

I am frequently reminded of one of the "Yes, Minister" scripts where the Politician's Syllogism is mentioned:

We must do something.
This is something.
Therefore, we must do it.

ID cards seem to me to be a perfect example of this. If the cards become the most commonly accepted form of ID, the benefits of forging them are automatically substantial. On the other hand if you still need to show three forms of ID to open a bank account (for example), only one of which is the ID card, I can't see we have made much progress over the current position.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:48 AM

I thought that nutter Abhu Hamza had been kicked out of the country?
has he been deported yet, wheres he from anyway?

totally agree with greg, I heard that they aim to have 80 percent of the population carrying ID cards within 10 years!
What is the point?

complete waste of time and money.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

An extremely stupid idea. The government is whipping up a general antipathy to terrorists and asylum-seekers, and convincing gullible people that having ID cards is a useful step to controlling things. Trouble is, it's a useful step to controlling a lot of other things too.
   In the Observer it claims that Islamic people who object to having their faces photographed will be exempt from having their photos on their cards. I can't really see the point in forcing me to have a card with my photo on, if other people arent forced to as well.
    The whole idea is a waste of time, as far as I am concerned, both on practical and civil liberty grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:36 AM

I notice Blunkett said veiled women needn't have their photo on. Do Muslim countries allow women NOT to have photos on passports? When I was working we had a student in full burka who DID have her photo on College ID card BUT always covered it with thumb when dealing with male staff (and her accent was more Brummie than mine!). How they knew it was realy her taking exams I don't know. Can iris recogniton work through the gauze of a full burka? She also wore gloves all the time so fingerprints would be out! As Abu Hamza is blind and has hooks....(don't go there, Roger)
I think it is a sledgehammer to crack nut, typical knee-jerk reaction of this govt. EG Nutters kills kids with handgun so all handguns at carefully controlled target shooting gun clubs are banned, but crooks still have handguns and nutters use shotguns, stolen guns, knives etc instead.
With my looks I have to wear a bag over my head to avoid frightening children, will I be exempt?


RtS
(part-time nutter, full time idiot)

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:24 AM

In Oz we need to produce evidence of who we are when we send a parcel overseas, or when we open a bank account etc.

I haven't had a driver's licence for about 25 years (I doze while travelling - as a driver I was a danger on the roads), nor do I have a passport. The only photo ID I have is my office ID which I will lose when I retire in 3 years time, unless I can get a part-time job with an organisation who uses photo IDs. Tho I believe the Passport office can issue photo cards for citizens without other ID.

So I have no difficulty with an ID card EXCEPT for the Big Brother stuff behind them. And our Prime Minuscule & his cronies are very into Big Brother stuff & Reds (terrorists?) under the Bed stuff. With any luck the Labour Party will throw them out later this year, but ...

Sandra the cynic

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:03 AM

Here in NZ we had our 'lifetime' drivers licenses cancelled and had to apply for new ones, which are 'smart' cards with a magnetic strip and photograph. The application entailed a technical eye test.
It is now illegal to drive whilst not carrying them.
They are reckoned to be a 'de-facto' identity card.

I think they cost the equivalent of UKP14 and the issuing office was the Automobile Association, acting on behalf of, and with the authority of, the government.
It didn't and doesn't bother me, I do very little that is illegal, but there was much resistance from the civil libertarians.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:09 AM

I heard on BBC R4 that it is only going to cost about £3, Billion , bargain eh?

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:06 AM

Good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:00 AM

Catsphiddle-I have the same objections, but don't forget that we will end up paying for it anyway through taxes, the goverment don't really have any money of their own, they spend ours!

I reckon it's a load of poo, as for employing illegal immigrants, it is already an offence to employ foreingers without a prpoer work permit, and the sort of people that do, ie dodgy agencies, construction sites, farms etc are not going to suddenly stop when ID cards are made compulsory.

I predict big problems with this, I remember there was chaos last summer when they introduced new software at the passport office, also been problems at the criminal records bureau and the tax self assesment computers.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:45 AM

I wouldn't mind if we had to carry and ID card but I do object to having to pay for something which is compulsory. If the government want me to carry an ID card then they should provide/pay for them.

I went to open another bank account only last week, I didn't have a problem...just had to take my passport or driving license as proof of ID and a bank statement/utility bill as proof of residence.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:37 AM

what's an EGO card?

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:29 AM

I have had one for 13 years living in Belgium but no-one has ever asked to see it (except in Estonia to check I was really the one signing a Visa chitty!). I have never objected to carrying one or felt it was invading my civil liberties, it doesn't seem to be used in "Big Brother" fashion in surreal Belgium and, as the local bobby said, it does allow them to immediately contact your nearest and dearest if you unfortunately have an accident or collapse in the street.

But I can understand the worries and concerns in some countries given the way things are going politically...

Peace

moo

P.S. I think jOhn from Hull9's suggestion is a rather elegant one!

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Terry K
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:03 AM

The main thrust of the need for ID cards is not to "stop terrorism" - though if they help in any small way, that will be good too. The main purpose is to appease those who object to people coming here illegally, working illegally and claiming benefits illegally, at the expense of those who are here on a totally legal footing. It will become an offence to employ someone who has no ID card, which may just help. I don't think anyone is naive enough to think it will make things perfect, but any improvement may make it worth the candle.

As for the "civil liberties" groups who object, I have yet to hear any sensible argument why we should not have them.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM

No doubt very useful to the geheime Stadts Polizei.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:15 PM

I KNEW this had to be a jOhn from Hull thread, I just knew it! What is more vital, an ID card or an EGO card?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

Has anybody tried to open a new bank or building society account recently? If so you should agree with me thet ID cards just might have their uses.
John

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:57 PM

Depends on your purposes. It won't help copmbat terrorism but it might help control the population. It might help solve some few crimes at great expense. I doubt it would help fight terrorism much at all. If your purpose is to track the citizenry and override any desire for privacy they have, why am sure it is just the thing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:04 PM

Something else that can be forged and sold on the black market, which everyone for some reason trusts because the authorities said so?

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: I.D Cards, are they a stupid idea?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:54 PM

They are a rubbish idea, jOhn. Rubbish. So are E.G.O. cards and S.U.P.E.R. E.G.O cards. Absolute rubbish, I say!