BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

Interesting articl here. Seems Ralph Nader has requested a vote recount in some of New Hampshire's precincts.

"Most people would have expected John Kerry's performance at the polls this year to be similar to Al Gore's in 2000. And in 229 out of 300 voting districts, or wards as they're called in New Hampshire, that was the case. Kerry either matched the percentage of votes that Gore received in 2000 in those wards or did better than Gore. But in 71 wards, Briggs found, Bush did better in 2004 than he did in 2000.

"When Briggs broke the 71 wards down by voting equipment -- separating wards into those that used traditional paper ballots and those that used optical-scan machines -- she discovered that 73 percent of the wards used optical-scan equipment, while only 27 percent used traditional paper ballots. Even more interesting was the breakdown per brand of voting equipment. New Hampshire wards used optical-scan equipment made by Diebold Election Systems and Election Systems & Software. About 62 percent of the wards with anomalous results used Diebold machines. "

Checking New Hampshire's Votes

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:49 PM

One election result has been overturned. I can't remember where they said it was, but it was for something fairly local like county commissioner or something. But that election result has been changed from Republican to Democrat because of a computer problem that resulted in an incorrect counting of the votes.

Also, I heard today that the Green Party has raised the necessary $100,000 for a recount in the state of Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM

link to study to which Nerd refers

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From:
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rick
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:25 PM

Ate TN votes too, apparently. It just seems strange that at least 90% of my friends, relatives and work acquaintences claim to have been for Kerry or at least against Bush. I guess I must be hanging around with the right crowd and that there must be a lot more uninformed or brainless dolts in this state than I had realized. I have yet to comprehend this, even in a nice southern redneck state such as this. What were people thinking? How can someone vote for that man (dubbya) and still face his friends, neighbors and loved ones the next day? And what kind of morons do they conceive us to be in other countries right now. God/Goddess help us!

Or is it, as I fear, so many voted for him because he has our poor disillusioned troops over there killing and torturing Arabs and Muslims? I so, what have we become as a nation. I shudder to think!

So, I am an ex-resident of Canada... no problem moving back there except the winters tend to be a bit nippy.

Blessings all,

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:55 PM

LarryK just shows his ignorance every time he opens his mouth:

"If polling is more accurate, than whoever is ahead in the poles should be declared the winner and we can all avoid waiting in lines an having to actually count the vote."

Exit Polling can only be done AFTER we stand in lines, dumbass. THOSE are the accurate polls.

According to independent analysts, including one here at the U of PA, it is essentially a statistical impossibility for the exit polls to have been that far wrong by random chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

Larry K, what most of are asking for is just that:

COUNT EVERY VOTE

That means:
1. Don't blindly trust the "count" done by a machine with proprietary software, or votes counted behind closed doors by partisans (e.g., in Warren County, OH).
Nobody is suggesting we use exit polls -- despite their long history of great accuracy -- to determine the outcome. But when observable methodolody yields results highly discrepant from an unverified "outcome," it's time for verification of the count.

2. Every eligible voter should be allowed, to the extent possible, equal access to the ballot box.
   That means you don't have a lot more voting machines per capita in one district than in others. That means no one's registration is deemed invalid based on trivial technicalities (e.g., failure to check a box that does not add any informatin beyond what's already beedn given. That means you don't disenfranchise 10 legal voters just so you can maybe prevent one ex-felon from voting. That means you must have enough provisiona ballots available to meet the needs of the precinct. That means you don't make phone calls and send out literature falsely threatening citizens with various sorts of legal problems if they dare to try to vote. And that means that low-income counties shouldn't get less reliable machines than wealthier counties.

Who the heck knows who won this election? The process was so frought with error, fraud, intimidation, and just plain untestable results that it's crazy to be analyzing the policy reasons why one candidate or another "won."

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

"
Bearded Bruce:

Ohio and Florida were expected to win for Kerry particularly in the heavilly populated Democratic counties where they had a shortage of voting machines to cause the long lines to suppress the vote.

They did it better than your suggestion.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:15 PM

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE- all of you continue to think that you won the last election and that it was stolen from you by fraud at the ballot box.    I beg you to continue thinking that for the next 4 years.   Ignore those silly articles in Time and Newsweek about what an inept campaign Kerry waged. Ignore those moral value questions which defeated gay marriagne in 11 of 11 states.   Continue believing you won the election.   Don't ever change.   You may want to save these e-mails to explain why you will have lost in 2008 as well.

And finally continue to believe that exit polls are far more accurate than actually counting the vote.   George Orwell will be proud of you. I would suggest, bases on this theory that there is no need for an actual vote in 2008.   If polling is more accurate, than whoever is ahead in the poles should be declared the winner and we can all avoid waiting in lines an having to actually count the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

Well, we're at 228 years now. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:28 AM

How many years of 'trying to change the system from within'...?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:34 PM

We don't seem to have that kind of system. Short of impeachment - fat chance of that with the GOP in firm control of both house and senate - there isn't ever much likelihood of forcing out a president. Protests and uprisings could convince a president not to run for re-election- like LBJ - but Dubya is in the lame-duck phase anyway. Even with Nixon, it took two years- and impeachable offenses were already an issue before his re-election.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Yes, but it was their ball and bat, as well.

If the opposition in the U.S. stormed congress, don't you think that Canada, France, Germany, etc. might exert some pressure on Bush to resign?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:09 PM

Oh, but, CarolC, our election is different. It's our bat and ball, if I may stir the metaphors.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

I think this part from the truthout site is very interesting:

"Last fall, international foundations sponsored an exit poll in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia during a parliamentary election. On Election Day, the pollsters projected a victory for the main opposition party. When the sitting governmnent counted the votes, however, it announced that its own slate of candidates had won. Supporters of the opposition stormed the Parliament, and the president, Eduard A. Shevardnadze, resigned under pressure from the United States and Russia."

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

Hell, we waged war against Iraq on flimsier evidence than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Thanks, Ebbie.

Y'know, the law is in many ways an arse. It allows eye-witness reports as "sound" evidence, but usually rejects some of the strongest kinds of scientific evidence and arguments as "evidence," as long as something isn't "conclusive proof."

In this case, we have the TOTAL ABSURDITY of allowing UNVERIFIABLE vote counts to stand unchallenged -- i.e., the state puts its blind trust in them -- but will probably not (if history is any judge) allow such a compelling statistical case as Freeman's to be considered as "evidence" at all!

Mind you, juries often convict people of murder on much weaker statistical (circumstantial) cases than Freeman's.

Isn't it interesting how much credence the press and the candidates give to polls when it's to their advantage? Pre-election polls are much less valuable than exit polls, but now everyone's awfully quick to discredit exit polls that don't match the numbers generated by seriously flawed vote tabulation processes.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:24 PM

Quote:

"How could the exit polls in this year's presidential election have diverged so drastically from the results that election officials and the media announced?
Professor Steven Freeman, a statistician at the University of Pennsylvania, offers a disturbing answer. Looking at the exit polls and announced results in Ohio, Florida, and Pennsylvania, he concludes that the odds against such an accidental discrepancy in all three states together was 250 million to one.

"As much as we can say in social science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote counts in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error."

"Read Dr. Freeman's well-reasoned, well-written argument, and make up your own mind. -- "

CARP

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

I wonder how much they got paid for each false vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

Looks like the machines ate some California votes too!   Diebold agreed to pay about $2.5 million to Alameda Co. to settle a lawsuit brought by blackboxvoting.org's Bev Harris. DK the details, but apparently the infamous Diebold machines messed up some election results in that county, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

Little Hawk, you speak truth.

That's exactly why the American people MUST speak out against insane notions such as:
-- e-voting with no paper ballot trail
-- state laws (e.g., Florida's) that don't allow a recount unless the oficial results are "close"
-- destruction of provisional ballots -- ANY ballots or raw data -- for a period of at least 6 years after an election, or until ALL interested parties have signed off on their destruction
-- the use of "proprietary" software for recording and/or tabulating votes
-- ANY use of modems for transmission of precinct dats
-- any non-transparent procedures for ballot counting
--overtly partisan people, e.g., Katherine Harris, Glenda Hood, Ken Blackwell, being in charge of state election policies and procedures
-- and a few other idiotic notions.

Hackers & Hanky Panky in the 2004 election

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM

We have paperless voting machines because:

1. It enables the people at the top to easily fix the vote with no paper trail.

2. It secures their buddies who manufacture those voting machines a lucrative contract.

It is true that the Democrats were quite clever at vote fraud in various past elections. They probably actually lost in 1960, for example. The Republicans are also clever at vote fraud. Give them paperless machines, and you can guarantee that they will cheat. Either one of them will. The main cheating will occur in the crucial swing states. It's a game. They play, the public loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:06 PM

Hey indieman! I started a thread for the address info. Hopefully it'll help some:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=75394

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,indieman
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM

blackboxvoting.org is down. Does anyone know what's going on with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:41 AM

Math professor, thanks for that article. It deals with several aspects of flaws and sources of possible cheating or error in our current election system (or lack thereof). While some data -- e.g., comparison of e-voting vs. other systems -- may not be statistically signifiicant, that's only part of the story. There are many aspects to the reported abnormalities and out-and-out abuses. That's why a comprehensive investigation of all irregularities and potential election fraud -- including attempts to disenfranchise minority voters -- is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,MIT math professor
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:08 AM

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=405

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:52 AM

Does anybody know who asked for paperless voting machines?

Why do we have them?

Herby the Love Bug

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,The Mudcat artist
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:16 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/scales4.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:57 AM

Thanks Genie, I think I have a somewhat clearer picture now. I believe the observation of the voting and the counting is crucial and therein lies some of the the difference between the voting procedures of the two countries. I didn't realize that scrutinizing the vote was not a standard practice in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM

Since we don't have a list of "related threads" at the top, here's a sister thread: Bev Harris (blackboxvoting.org)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:54 PM

Metchosin , to put is plainly, I think there are only two reasons why the US insists on complicated voting machines and electronic counting rather than paper ballots that are hand counted.
1. The recent obsession with immediate results. (Though, as we saw in 2000, the high-tech, complex methods -- differing from county to county -- actually delayed the final result.
2. High-tech and mechanical voting machines make it easier for pols to cheat. The people who are in power don't really want that power threatened by anything as trivial as the will of the people.
(Had the Democrats been in charge of Ohio and Florida, they might have cheated as much as it looks like the Republicans did. Richard Daly and Lyndon Johnson were experts at that. But this year the Republicans were in control of most of the "swing" states.)
3. The general cultural fascination with all things high-tech. (E.g., we now use expensive, polluting and noisy leaf blowers instead of inexpensive rakes and elbow grease.)

A simple solution to the problem, which would preserve states' rights, would be to pass a law requiring
a. all votes for the Presidency and maybe for for all federal offices to be cast on a STANDARD, simple PAPER ballot
b. all votes to be counted by nonpartisan government workers -- with all parties who have candidates on the ballot allowed to participate in or observe the countig
c. all ballots to be preserved, securely, until all candidates and parties represented on the ballots give written permission for their destruction.

This kind of law will never pass as long as there's such a lopsided Congress and a SCOTUS with somewhat questionable integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM

Hey, the computer ate my last post, too!

In brief this time, then. Olbermann ran the story on tonight's countdown. Plenty of irregularities in Ohio, and I was only wrong about one detail: it was the Cincinatti Inquirer that broke the Homeland Security story. There were many other irregularities in both Ohio and Florida, where counties with 77% Democratic majorities are voting 80% for Bush, and only where Optical Scanners are being used. In every other county, the majority of registered voters carried the county.    Fishy enough yet? 6 congressmen are calling for an investigation from the GAO and the FBI.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:03 PM

Every vote should be counted, including the votes of Americans in other countries. If not, why bother.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

All I have to say is, if they're not going to count all the votes, why bother to vote at all? After all the "your vote counts" garbage...

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

One of the articles cited in one of the websites makes the point that the founding fathers created a scenario whereby functions that are for the public good should be the responsibility of the government---i.e. public safety, health (that came later), etc; What, pray tell, is more important than transparent elections (the article goes on to say). That should be the function of the gov't and not left to private for profit companies who's results cannot be audited. The article goes on to say that in (heaven help us) Germany has the most honest and simple way---paper ballots---hand counted with supervision by government empoyees. The cost---less than all this high tech stuff--just overtime for human beings.

It seems to me that this new unaudited computer voting has the possibility---if it has not already---to make LBJ's ballot stuffing in his early years in TX look almost amateurish.

Now I do not claim to know if there was hanky-panky in OH or FL or anywhere else. But, the perception surely suggests such. My dissapointment in the Dems not following through on their original--every vote counts and every vote will be counted---saddens me. More than "sadden"--upsets me.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM

Thanks for confirming that your point about the number of districts was nonsense, just as I said it was, bb.

My point is, just because the county board decides what TYPE of machine is used does not mean they can easily fix an election. To do so they actually have to rig all those machines. Not so easy, especially when they are not the paperless kind (which they are not in PA). Remember, the Republicans are allowed two poll-watchers PER DISTRICT (thousands in Philly) to make sure that the vote count was reasonable. I haven't heard of a single complaint from them in PA, except an erroneous one about machines with votes on them at the start (turns out they were looking at the wrong counter, and the non-partisan Philadelphia election watching group known as the Committee of Seventy cleared the machine for use). In PA, the vote counting is done right there in the polling place at the end of the day, with Dem and Repub lawyers looking on, then called in to the elections commission. Again, I know of no complaints from Philly's republican poll-watchers.

Conversely, there are many complaints from both Ohio and Florida. Keith Olbermann was talking about running a story on it today or tomorrow on countdown--and he's not exactly a raging leftie! In one Ohio office, the poll-watchers were kept out of the room because--get this--the DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY called and said there was a terrorism risk so the building had to be locked down while the votes were counted. So basically the Secret Police had control of the ballot boxes...real Democracy, folks!

The Cincinatti Times broke that story. I'm late for my train, but I'll post the link later tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

If Kerry had won, would we be asking for an investigation of the voting process?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM

Genie, I still don't understand. Canada is a paper and pencil ballot country whose voting system seems to be fairly straight and those "ifs" have never appeared to be a problem.

Where and specifically what problems have occurred in the past in the US with paper ballots and pencils? Do you have any ideas what, other than the larger scale, would cause these problems in the US and not in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:29 AM

So why do we have paperless voting machines? Who asked for them?

Herby the Love Bug

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

Very good. Thank you, Genie.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

Oops! That last post was mine. I switched over to Netscape to do my post formatting, and I didn't realize I wasn't logged in on Netscape.

Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:33 PM


 

 

Info and links re Election Audit Demand and "Count Every Vote"

http://www.redhottopic.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=215&t=32419&st=720#

Responding to a few questions that have been thrown my way or thrown
out in general:

CarolC, If you don't have access to a fax machine right now and want support to Nader's efforts, you can send him a check.  I think you can get the address from therandirhodesshow.com or from Bev Harris at www.blackboxvoting.org.

But it may be as important to support Bev Harris's FOIA suits as to
support Ralph's investigation.   She's mounting a major FOIA
suit for access to the "proprietary" source code in several states and
really needs contributions -- even if only a buck or two apiece -- and
you can use PayPal if you like.

CONTACT: Bev Harris

Office: 425-228-7131

E-mail:

[e-mail]

Location: Renton, WA

Time Zone: PST

www.blackboxvoting.org

 

 

LittleHawk - "What you should do is dig up all the evidence possible comparing exit polls to final voting tallies, and pointing up the gross differences in final results in the computerized voting districts as opposed to the others.  Publicize it.  And start indicting people for it. Contact your congressmen to do this."

Little Hawk, you're right about gathering evidence and contacting Senators and Representatives and the media about it.  One person who wants as many e-mails as she can get about this is

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-TX.     
Sheila Jackson Lee's website

She will be bringing the issue up in Congress and needs these emails to bolster her effort -- not just stuff about e-voting, but ALL problems people had getting registered, voting, etc.

Bat Goddess, I'm not sure why Ralph singled out New Hampshire
for his first 'target."  One report I read said that the exit polls and election results in NH were very close.  It may be that it was only certain counties that used paperless machines and the results seemed odd there.

But take a look at the graph here:

 Election
results vs. Exit Polls / Paper ballots vs. e-voting

But it is not just the e-voting machines that are suspect, it's also
the electronic machines that COUNT paper ballots such as optical scan machines. 
Yes, if there's a paper trail, a hand recount could be done, but if the
"results" are not CLOSE, states usually won't do that.  It's still
important for the source code to be public.

And, Goddess, DMcG, bearded bruce, etc., the election officials can be as fair-minded as Socrates, but if the source code is "proprietary"
to the machine manufacturer -- which it is in most cases so far --
even the election officials can't prevent e-cheating.  Only the companies, like Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, etc., have access to the "innards" of the electronic machines.

 

Herby, you asked "What was wrong with the old system?"

Plenty, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

In this case, HAVA (Help America Vote Act) was intended to make the
election results faster and more clear-cut -- which in many ways has happened. 
Only problem: Congress didn't FUND HAVA properly, so it ended up being
implemented in a half-assed way and on the cheap.  (At least that's what the pols would LIKE us to believe was the reason for not requiring recountable paper ballots.  As to why they didn't require public source codes, I DK if that was negligence or deliberately intended to allow cheating.)  I think HAVA also didn't have "teeth."  We need new and stronger legislation.

And, oh, BTW, just wait till a popular Republican Senator loses to a
Democrat upstart in a Dem-controlled state via an unverifiable e-voting
machine.   We'll soon be getting bipartisan support for a paper trail.  LOL

CarolC  -"paper ballots that use a pen to mark the vote
are an excellent system, as long as members of both parties are involved in the counting process every step of the way, as long as voters can use provisional ballots when necessary, and as long as all votes are counted."

Ah, yes, Carol.  An important string of "ifs."

It seems Warren Co., Ohio, at the last minute announced it would keep the press and all other observers away from the vote-counting room -- "for security reasons" (related to terrorism threats).  [I saw that kind of thing coming the first time I heard Bush & Cheney talking about the need for "extra security" for this year's election.]

More importantly, I've learned that MOST states DO NOT count all
the votes.  Unless specific races are very tight, they often don't even bother counting absentee ballots (including military ballots) and provisional ballots.

There's a move to require all the votes to be counted this year, especially in the "swing states."

 Count Every Vote.org

Other important sites:

 OpenVotingConsortium.org

 Article on Voting problems (verifiedvoting.org)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:30 PM

sorry, the blue clickies did not copy... see the original for the links to maps.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

"And he's spouting this nonsense on several different threads, too. "

my post that I tthink you refer to:

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

PA by county DEMS win, of course...

MD by county.... DEMs win, of course...

NY state by county... DEMs win. of course...

Michigan by county... DEMs win, of course...


It seems to me that if there is an indication of fraud, a good case could be made that the Democrats really lost by a much larger margin. Or do you really think that the Dems would not stoop to such tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

Nerd-

My apologies- I DID use the word "districts" in a post. The maps I had posted from CNN were by county, but as I said, here the county election board determines the method of voting FOR ALL areas in that county. ANd the maps I posted from CNN were by county, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:43 PM

I still don't understand the stampede to electronic voting of any kind.   What is so difficult about putting an X or check on a paper ballot, putting it in a box and then opening the box and counting the marks in the presence of scrutineers of the various political parties? The number of votes to count too large? Then provide more polling stations in the area. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Nerd,

As usual, you are incorrect. I said counties- The level at which the choice of voting macnine is made. EACH COUNTY uses a machine in all the "districts" (precincts in MD) of that county. In Maryland, at least- You might actually be right in PA, but that does not negate the point of my post.

SO, perhaps you should reconsider just who here is presenting nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:02 PM

Thanks for posting that, Stewart.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Stewart
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

Here's a simple verifiable electronic *open* voting system. To learn more and try out a prototype go to The Open Voting Consortium. web site. And federal legislation should mandate such a verifiable system in all national elections.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

________________________________________________

Do you trust black box voting machines?

Over one-third of the nation used electronic voting machines in Tuesday's Presidential election that have no audit trail and cannot effectively be recounted. Discrepancies between the exit polls and the reported election results are hard to investigate because there is no independent paper record of all the individual votes. And those electronic voting machines have inner workings that are trade secrets and the reports of the certification tests for them are also trade secrets.

If you believe that voting systems should be open and publicly inspectable, then please join the Open Voting Consortium at http://www.openvotingconsortium.org The Open Voting Consortium is a group dedicated to the promotion of *open* voting systems. We recently demonstrated a prototype system that was called a "Touch

Screen Holy Grail" by the San Jose Mercury News. We helped pass SB1438 in California to require voting machines to have a paper trail. And we helped pass ACR242 in California that directed the study of using open source in electronic voting machines.

In the coming months, we plan to promote similar legislation in other states. We also plan to continue development of open voting systems. Help begin a process to transform the voting system from a fraud-prone, blackbox, proprietary, expensive, idiosyncratic, unreliable system to a technically sound, accurate, secure, inexpensive, uniform and open voting system. Visit the Open Voting Consortium at http://www.openvotingconsortium.org and donate or become a supporting member today.

Best regards, Arthur

Arthur M. Keller, Ph.D., 3881 Corina Way, Palo Alto, CA 94303-4507

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

Doesn't matter where you live. Hackers can rig the election any way they like.

d