Guitar as accompaniment

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:35 PM

Well, Vixen, this is how i got there...don't know if it will help, i hope it does.:0) Everyone learns differently!

I've had a few guitar lessons off and on, when i could afford them; all with different teachers, and all of them started with different things, like one taught me a few chords, another pentatonic scales, another some rythymic styles. In between, i didn't practise nearly as much as i should have...until i started writing my own songs, and needed to accompany myself. Then, i started just messing around with chord changes, just simple ones, until i could do them without thinking. After i had them down, i just used the same process for more complex ones, and then for picking.

I think what did it for me was having the knowledge there, then just running with it with it and working out the best way for me to develop it; and then, of course, practising till i had blisters:0)
I also found it helpful to sing as i was playing because i had to concentrate on my voice, and that helped the auto-pilot kick in with my hands. Maybe you could try this, even if you're not a singer.

I think the important thing is to get the technique down (not necessarily an official technique; one that works for you. Remember, if it sounds good, it probably is!), so you can play without thinking about it, and then let the emotion come. Start with something easy, then work your way up...get the foundations down first:0)

Hope this helps! :0)

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: GUEST,Vixen
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM

Blissful--that's what I need to get to, a point where the hands and ears work directly together.

V

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From:
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Well, Jerry, ya did it again!

I strum a boom-chick-boom-chick or boom-chick-chick rhythm, mostly, but I'm still a bit inconsistent with tempo, and if I can't hear the melody line, or it changes somewhat, I tend to lose the rhythm too, and muck up the chord changes. Consequently, I try to play as unobtrusively as I can, so as not to ruin the song. This is somewhat difficult, since I'm one of a duo. Also, Reynaud says I need to be more emphatic with my downbeat/bass, but I haven't mastered the muscle memory in my right hand to do that consistently either.

Strangely, *I* feel as if I keep better rhythm and tempo if I'm finger-picking, but that's so quiet as to be completely lost under the concertina or dulcimer or fiddle or banjo or mandolin or whatever. Unfortunately, I only know two finger-pick patterns--pinch-2-3 and pinch-2-3-4 well enough to play consistently. The other patterns I just don't know well enough to play at any tempo. And, they're patterns--no expression, no melody, just boring.

I would love to have a workshop/lessons taught by someone who can tell me explicitly what I have to do, so I can practice it over and over. I tried using a beginner's video, figuring I could just replay each segment over and over until I got it. NOPE--the instructor went over the first riff so damn fast I couldn't get it. Reynaud watched it once, and spent an hour working with me to get my fingers going in the right places, so I could then practice it.

Sometimes I think it's because I'm left-handed trying to play guitar right-handed--but I've been playing this way nearly 40 years, so I think it's too late to try to change. Sometimes I think it's because I just don't "get" the guitar, because I do much better on other instruments. And other times I think it's just that I don't have the single-minded devotion to practice a couple hours a day. I mostly manage to play 15-30 minutes a day, with a couple of 1-2 hour sessions every week; I just don't think I give it enough time.

But what I want to do as a guitar accompanist is provide a rhythmic foundation, with bass runs or melodic riffs where appropriate--the kind of unobtrusive embellishment that emphasizes the emotion, mood, and feel of the music. I'd love to have a workshop/lessons that gave me a set of tools to practice using toward those ends.

Whew--that's more like a dime than $0.02--fwiw

V

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:50 PM

Thanks :0)

Thing is, i don't put any intelligence into playing, i don't think about it at all...my hands work of their own accord, and it comes out ok...

I think i cut out the middle man, my brain, because it's clumsy and tends to get in the way.:0)

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

A very interesting subject Jerry. I'll try to add to it.

Like Mike, my voice is my primary instrument. As such, I try NOT to allow the guitar to overwhelm the telling of the tale, ballad. I've always appreciated the "Burl Ives" type of approach, where often just a simple strum was all that was necessary.

However, on some ballads, where there is a very strong melody line, I often play a guitar bass line harmony, to the melody. Examples of this might be "The Star of Bannock," or "Roddy McCorly," or "Wandering Angus," or "Palace Grand."

I do a fair number of songs in different languages. On these, I'll often do a guitar solo break where the guitar can take the stage and "play" with the melody lines.

Thanks for this thread. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

I only get the feeling that an accompaniment is "flashy" when it detracts from the lyrics and melody. It's perfectly possible to have an intricate accompaniment that actually enhances the content that it's backing eg - "Canadee-i-o" by Nic Jones or "Erin-Go-Bragh" by Dick Gaughan.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM

You sound Blissfully Intelligent to me.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:25 PM

I just make it as simple or as complicated as i feel is required by the song...like, on one song, there's a flashy intro to begin with, then through the verses straightforward chords embellished with some picking and more flashy bits at the end of each line; then in the chorus some fast flashy bits, ending on another flashy bit...on another song, it's just two chords strummed to a very basic rythym, sort of mantra like.

It all depends on the song, for me. It's not about impressing people, it's about making good music...a lot of the music i hear is technically impressive, but it just does nothing for me; sometimes the opposite is true. Sometimes both. It has to fit with the song, and it has to connect with the listener...i think that's what's important. :0)

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM

Another great example of unobtrusive and simple accompaniment is "The Ballad of Hollis brown" by Bob Dylan, which fits exactly with what you're talking about re one chord accompaniment. I think (and am prepared to be corrected!) that he plays it in DADGAD and uses the bass runs to counterpoint the melody. This gives the emotional starkness of the lyrics a really powerful edge.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM

On Nov 27 and Dec 11 I'll be conducting guitar accompaniment workshops in Goderich (Ontario Canada). It's sort of my specialty because I found a lifetime ago that solo flatpicked lines couldn't compete with squeezebox, piano, fiddle, whistles and several voices, sometimes all at the same time. Without amplification, my sound got lost in the mix, but my rhythm began to form the foundation so I worked on refining that. Chord substitutions and inversions, rhythmic variations, transposition, modulation, open chord and altered tunings, baritone use, various articulation devices like slides and slurs, strumming vs fingerstyle, and so on are parts of the workshops I do.

Accompaniment is part subtlety, part brashness, part support, part drive. It is the singular strength of guitar. Usually the song or tune should dictate the style of accompaniment, but experimentation is the key to finding fresh ideas.

Fwiw, if anyone around southern Ontario is interested, pm me for details of my workshops.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:15 PM

Here in the Yew Ess of Aye, workshops in folk festivals are only ocassionaly "workshops." They are either song swaps with an agreed upon subject, or instrumental showcases. The workshops I've participated in that have been closest to an actual workshop are the songwriters workshops. Songswaps with an agreed upon subject are fine, and I enjoy participating in, and attending them. Bu they aren't really "work" shops.

Guitar workshops rarely start from the perspective of someone who knows some basic rhythms and chords, who is looking for picking patterns, rhythms or harmonies. The kind of wrokshop that Jeri would find most helpful is the kind of guitar workshop I'd like to be a part of. Sometimes, just to make my point of using guitar for accompaniment, I'll do a song that has no chord changes, and a basic rhythm, showing how you can use that rhythm to make the song more interesting and melodic. I do both The Farmer's Curst Wife and John Henry in one chord (a 7th chord in both instances) and I think the accompaniment provides a rich framework to really savor the words and the humor in the songs.. particularly Farmer's Curst Wife. (I really like a version of John Henry done by Wade Mainer and His Mountaineers that is done with one chord.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: DADGBE
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:09 PM

Hi Jerry,

Good question! If we can remove the "can you top this?" ego stuff for a moment, it comes down to what the heck is accompaniment anyway? For me, anything that enhances the emotional impact if a song is appropriate accompaniment.

The problem is that one innapropriate note will wipe out the emotional impact of many 'right' ones so I opt for a minimalist approach; the 'less is better' style.

My preference is finger picking either on bare fingers or with finger picks when I need to project more sound. Arthritis has made the pinch grip on a flat pick uncomfortable so I tend to drop the things. A recently completed a CD project with champion autoharper Les Gustafson-Zook was recorded with us both bare fingered; but one bare fingered contra dance would bloody my right hand.

Musically, anything that works for me is fair game: chords, drones, bass lines, melody fragments, whole melodies, harmony lines and the like.

As you can guess from my mudcat name, I stick to dropped D tuning for a large proportion of the time. It seems to be most musically flexible. Also, that arthritis makes certain left hand positions painful and dropped D helps me stay away from the nasties. Ironically, playing in the key of C is now my most difficuly task because of the C chord, not the much feared F.

Hope that helps. I'd love to see what other folks post.

Ray

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Jerry, you did it again! This promises to be a great discussion.

I have a LOT to say on this topic -- more than I feel comfortable about writing up while here at work. And for the next day or two, I have no internet connection at home. (We're switching ISPs from unreliable DSL to cable, and the cable company has to rewire the house).

I'm putting a "tracer" on this thread and will have something to add later, probably Friday night or over the weekend. By then, there'll probably be a hundred or so messages already posted; hopefully, whatever I have to say will take some of that previous commentary into account.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

Interesting subject Jerry, I perform solo with just guitar and voice. I almost always play fingerstyle using bass runs and transition chords as I go through each song's progressions. I vary my picking patterns to accomodate each song's needs and occasionally will strum with index finger or thumb when needed for emphasis. I do not use finger picks.

My voice is my primary instrument. I sing acapella sometimes during a set to give the audience a change in sound. On some songs I will play an instrumental break, but mostly I play patterns and bass runs as I sing. My guitar is tuned standard, I have never played with alternative tunings (too lazy to learn I guess). I play mostly in the top 3 frets with an occasional barr chord played higher up. I use a capo when needed.

Mike

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:42 PM

Actually, having re-read your post, Jerry, I'm sorry to hear that most of the workshops you've been to have degenerated into 'duelling guitar' type willy-waving. In my experience most UK guitar workshops are pretty helpful, and there isn't that element of competition. Surely it negates the point of having a workshop?

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:37 PM

Not trying to hijack the thread but for the benefit of UK catters I'm running a guitar workshop with Dave4Guild at Bedworth FF next weekend. I play a lot in open tunings with plectrum and fingers and my two top influences are Nic Jones and Micheal O'Domhnaill (have I spelled that right?!) from the Bothy Band. Dave on the other hand for those of you who don't know him is a ragtime and blues wiz. I'm looking forward to learning some stuff myself! It'd be great to see anyone who could make it!

Jerry, I tend to use guitar rather bouzouki or mandolin to accompany simply because I find it has a greater range and vocabulary. I use open tunings because I got addicted to them some years ago and find that it's a great way to vary the feel of a song and stop your playing becoming homogenous (which mine was using just standard tuning). In answer to your other questions I do all of the things you suggested!

Will return soon to add more but my chilli is boiling over ! Aargh!

Chris

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:28 PM

Jerry, I'm only in the beginner stage of learning, so I'm looking at this from a "things I wish would get more attention" standpoint.

Flashy players sometimes are good. I like listening to them play. Listening to them explain their techniques (which, in my experience, they don't do) might be interesting if I knew more and/or was more of a guitar nerd than I am. These are workshops for masters, or at least intermediate players, and they aren't usually too helpful to me.

Some of the flashy players are just flashy. Even I can play tunes on guitar. It's pretty easy, especially since I know a bunch of tunes already on fiddle. I'm not that interested in 'impressive, but easy'. I want to learn 'so unobtrusive people hardly notice your playing, but pretty difficult'. Unobtrusive, appropriate accompaniment is a skill learned by the ears that listen and that part of the brain that does the hearing. You need a minimum amount of technical skill, but more skill means your more able to make the sounds your brain dreams up.

Jerry, this is a great idea for a thread. I think I'll sit back and read what the folks who know what they're doing have to say. To add to Jerry's questions: what is it about a song that makes you decide how to accompany it? How do you come up with An Arrangement'? What do you play in between the words and the lines of the verses? Thanks.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

Well, right now I'm playing everything solo. I perform with just myself and guitar... I play the bass, melody, and I take instrumental breaks, but not "lead" breaks. So there no flash at all. I rarely use open tunings, but play my 6-/12- string like an open tuning in standard... Lots of open chords and suspendeds. I pick or strum depending on the dynamics I need to accomplish (picking for quiet/strumming for loud)

Subject: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Whenever I am asked to participate in a "guitar workshop" at a festival, it inevitably turns out to be "Can you top this?" dueling guitar instrumentals. Most participants pick their flashiest guitar pieces, trying to outdo each other. Meanwhile, many (if not most) of the people who come to the workshop are hoping to pick up some easily accessible techniques to use while accompanying themselves. Maybe that's just the case in this country. (Hey, Martin, let's count this as another American thread..)

I'd like to hear from you folks about how you use guitar for accompaniment. Do you flat pick or finger pick, and if you can do both, what causes you to choose one style or the other for a particular song. Do you use open tunings for some songs, and if so, why? What about instrumental breaks? Do you take them? When you play guitar for accompaniment, do you try to carry harmony lines on the guitar, or just back yourself with patterns? Or, do you carry the melody line in your accompaniment? Do you commonly use bass runs to make the transition from one chord to another?

And, if you accompany yourself on more than one instrument, what is it that makes you choose guitar over banjo, or mandolin?

That should get this one started..

Jerry