BS: Here we go again in London

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Actually, I don't. But I am willing to go along with established orthodoxy on the subject when it comes to describing how the scientific community currently approaches the subject of "race". Which is what I was doing when I made my post on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

And Jesse Owens proved it

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:53 PM

"BTW David, Carol is right. South Asians or Pakistanis or more closely related to Aryans. That is if you buy into the old racist theory of three distinct races..."

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Let us not get into whether or not race does exist, because quite frankly, i would wipe the floor with you. lolol.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

I have no idea where the chase started, but knowing Stockwell station it is the last place I would have run into. I would have run into the very busy road outside it, or one of the numerous shops next to it, or into the huge pub opposite it, or up to the manned ticket box that he ran past to vault the barrier, No I wouldn't have run into a tube, vaulted a barrier and boarded a train.

I think it was a tragic error of judgment from all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:31 PM

If you think you are being chased by a bunch of thugs, running into a station full of people and getting on a train might seem quite a sensible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

Mc Grath he made the mistake of vaulting a barrier into a tube station and running onto a train. Not quite as simple as 'running away.'

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

Hopefully , the facts WILL be publicised soon !

And one of the facts that has now been confirmed is that the man shot five times while he was pinned to the ground had nothing whatsoever to do with the bombers. He'd just had the ill fortune to come out of a block of flats (an apartment building as they say in the States), one of which was under surveillance. And when he was challenged by a bunch of strangers in plain clothes he made the mistake of running away.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:32 PM

We are now in the age of 'anything goes'

'Luck' will have a lot to do with things in future.

... for innocent civilians.

... as well as innocent civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:28 PM

Obviously he should also have been impeached, convicted and removed for starting the Iraq war--but it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM

This proves that even a totally anonymous Guest can make excellent observations. I feel exactly the same--I sure as hell not only never voted for Bush --for plenty of good reasons--- or anybody else I thought might support his criminally stupid war, but, as I've said before, as a registered Republican I called the White House hot line before the invasion and warned them that if Bush invaded Iraq, every picture of a dead woman or child broadcast on al-Jazeera would result in more terrorists all over the world.

QED.

Now we all have to live with the consequences.

But that still does not make it all right for civilians in the UK or the US to be blown up.

Anybody who thinks it does is just not capable of rational thought, and therefore not worth debating.

I still think Bush should be impeached, convicted and removed from office immediately, just for discontinuing, at the behest of a few US firms who do not want the workers' compensation liability, 2 programs in Russia which were securing nuclear material.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

inOBU I agree with you completely about our involvemnt in the war. I just find it difficult to reconcile people's criticism of the way the police acted in this particular situation without having an alternative idea. That isn't directed at you.

It seems the shot guy was unrelated to the bombings. I didn't vote for Blair but am living with the consequence of his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM

Keith A of Hertford, I don't understand your question, although I suspect that InOBU has answered it in his 23 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Shakey...your getting confused again.

I'm not interested in making excuses for terrorists from the East or West!!
I am interested in making sure that the condition does not escalate into a racial/religious war in the cities of the UK.

I believe our foreign policy was wrong and strong arm tactics now will only inflame the situation.
Our foreign policy is of course driven by the need for us to continue our wasteful and materialistic lifestyle, but we'll leave that aside for the moment.

Dont be too hasty in giving away your famous spade by the way, judging by your performance on this thread you may have to use it some day to earn your living ...Howzattt!! Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:41 AM

Oh Yes -And 100

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

Without ALL the facts it is pointless to speculate ! Hopefully , the facts WILL be publicised soon !

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:48 AM

"a group of British Pakistanis"

How can you have "British Pakistanis"? They're either British with roots in Pakistan, or Pakistanis who live in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM

Well... being a Quaker and not carring a gun, I sure would not have shot him? But, if we are playing make believe here, how about, what if I was a president or PM, I would not have invaded a nation who had not made war on me, and I would not have given Mr. Husain poison gas to use on the kurds. Well, let's pretend we are voters, and stop our nations terrorist policies which add fuel to the terrorist situation. It is time the world grew up and stopped using murder as a way to deal with issues of markets and trade and all the other reasons Paul Wolfowitz wrote about the "need" for this war two years before mr Bush ran for president and led the PM into this war of agression.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:27 AM

'The police tried to stop the man and ask him his intentions. He detonated the bomb as he sat on the train. Forty people died and scores more were maimed.'

That could have been the story. What exactly would you have done inOBU if you were the policeman on the train?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

( good on ya kev ) :) lor

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:47 AM

"So, according to you, our foreign policy should be based upon whatever a bunch of fanatics believe it should be, interesting idea."

That sounds familiar enough. Isn't that what's already happened in Washington?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:25 AM

Ake, I'm pleased you've learned a new word - "sophistry" - funnily enough it's the word I used somewhile back in connection with diana & carol.

So, according to you, our foreign policy should be based upon whatever a bunch of fanatics believe it should be, interesting idea.

Make no mistake ake the west will prevail. The biggest losers here are, potentially, the ordinary law abiding muslims, so why haven't the muslim leaders throughout the world ever organised a global conference to decide how they can defeat the fanatics?

You are correct in as much as education is necessary, but as I sit here in a room with two thousand books, which I bought with my own money that I could have spent on purchasing explosives, I don't believe it to be me that needs it the most.

You may, if you wish, continue to make excuses for these people but don't expect me to excuse you.

Time will tell if I am right or you are wrong

Time for cricket

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:42 AM

dianavan and CarolC why dont you start up your own thread and just talk to each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:33 AM

Mothers were throwing children from windows.
People who think it OK to do that to other human beings have to be faced.
Would you prefer they were in power?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:55 AM

I suspect, Keith A of Hertford, that incidents such as the one you refer to are more the product of the amount of chaos (bordering on civil war) that the US and Britain have uneashed upon Iraq through waging an illegitimate war against that country, which was planned for and executed with an astonishing level of arrogance and incompetence, and also the total lack of a plan for "winning the peace".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:43 AM

I totally agree with what Thomas Friedman was saying in the editorial that an anonymous guest has copied and pasted here in this thread, about shining a light on hate speach WHEREVER it is found. Including hate speach directed at Muslims. That is what many of us are attempting to do in threads like this one.

But Mr. Friedman also seems to be saying that the US and Britain are entitled to kill as many innocent civilians in as many countries as they want to, and that they are entitled to expect that they will not be criticized in any way for doing so. Sorry to disappoint, but Mr. Friedman does most certainly not occupy the moral high ground on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:36 AM

The same groups are bombing civillians in Iraq.
Did you see the effect of that petrol tanker in a town centre.
Was that in revenge for what we did in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:23 AM

Hello again ,Hows the lynch mob this morning?

Shakey , aa, jpk et al.

The young people interviewed in Leeds are British born but are also Muslims. They obviosly feel the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent killing of Iraqi civilians in towns like Falluja is an attack on fellow Muslims who had nothing at all to do with 9/11 or any other fundamentalist terror.
I'm quite sure you all know this already and are practicing what McGrath calls "sophistry"

You may not agree with the mindset of the young Muslims,but its a "fact of life" so we better start addressing the problem.
If we dont start changing our foreign policy, and educating bozos like Shakey and aa every city in Britain could turn into a war zone.

While on the subject of Terrorism, the word is fraught with hypocrisy.
On another thread, one of our most valued moderates, McGrath, reminded us that the West assisted the Chetchian militants in their fight against the Soviet Union, atrocities committed were horrific, and these were the same militatnts who were to carry out the murder of the innocents in Beslan.

Isnt politics a murky business?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 11:56 PM

Shakey - "Now this sounds like support,succour at least."

I already said a I could understand their confusion. I was referring to the teens not the terrorists.

Obviously you can read but your comprehension needs improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:46 PM

I've just read (Reuters) that the man killed had just been in a house the police had been keeping under surveillance. Then he goes into the tube, and instead of halting when ordered to do so, leaps over the turnstile and attempts to escape. If he was innocent, he must have had a strong death wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

On a lighter note, it appears that in this case all of the main explosive charges failed to detonate. It must be rather disconcerting to press the button and find you're still sitting on a tube train or bus with a ringing in your ears and a rather tattered, smoking rucksack on your lap. Perhaps we'll hear a news item along the lines of:

Abdul Ben Banger, Msc Chemistry (failed) was found in central london with his head kicked in.

BTW from the CCTV pictures of the bombers released, it looks as if this lot were more likely to be of African origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 09:51 PM

One thing for certain, Blair paid little heed to the grey eminences of the past. As Churchill once warned, interfere in the Middle East at your peril. Same old, same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:47 PM

Dianavan, If Bush had not gotten Blair to go along in the invasion of Iraq, the so called laughable coalition would have been a bare faced unilateral invasion of Iraq by the US alone. UK gave the only substantive support in spite of a few hundred Polish and Spanish support troops.

Liz, perhaps you could request the right to extend or revise your (overly passionate) remarks. (G)

Bush says "this is a war against idealogues, this is a war against killers".

I can picture Osama saying "George took those words right out of my November 2004 tape recording".

Honestly, The US may not be the reigning champions at killing innocent people but we are almost #1.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:42 PM

dianavan said
If I were them, I'd be confused and angry, too.

Now this sounds like support,succour at least.

The bombing seems to me to be an act of retaliation for U.S. and British aggression in the Middle East. Have you ever heard of Pan-Arabic identity

Ugh, Pakistan?

The reason why no one will answer the guest's question is that there is no real link. The fact is there exists a group of radicalised muslims who wish to see the demise of the west, all of it. In their eyes it is a war between Islam and the west, even if we have the sense to see it's really a relatively small group of bloody lunatics.

They're at it again, as we sit here arguing hundreds of people are injured in Egypt. Go on tell me I'm jumping to conclusions but I'm faily sure it wasn't a radical Amish group.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:25 PM

Guest (SuSu?) - "So, pray tell, why does a group of British Pakistanis bomb London? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?"

There are absolutely no Iraqi's connected to the 911 terrorists or the London bombing that I know of. However, according to recent surveys, most people believe that if Britain and the U.S. had stayed out of Iraq, the London bombings wouldn't have happened.

The bombing seems to me to be an act of retaliation for U.S. and British aggression in the Middle East. Have you ever heard of Pan-Arabic identity. Probably not. Obviously Bush didn't know about that either or he would have stayed home.

That is why it is confusing for the teens. Thats what they were saying and I am agreeing that they should be confused. Thats what happens when Bush and Blair lie. They confuse the issues, just like you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,thomas friedman
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:18 PM

Giving the Hatemongers No Place to Hide
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
I wasn't surprised to read that British police officers in white protective suits and blue gloves were combing through the Iqra Learning Center bookstore in Leeds for clues to the 7/7 London bombings. Some of the 7/7 bombers hung out at the bookstore. And I won't be surprised if today's bombers also sampled the literature there.

Iqra not only sold hatemongering Islamist literature, but, according to The Wall Street Journal, was "the sole distributor of Islamgames, a U.S.-based company that makes video games. The video games feature apocalyptic battles between defenders of Islam and opponents. One game, Ummah Defense I, has the world 'finally united under the Banner of Islam' in 2114, until a revolt by disbelievers. The player's goal is to seek out and destroy the disbelievers."

Guess what: words matter. Bookstores matter. Video games matter. But here is our challenge: If the primary terrorism problem we face today can effectively be addressed only by a war of ideas within Islam - a war between life-affirming Muslims against those who want to turn one of the world's great religions into a death cult - what can the rest of us do?

More than just put up walls. We need to shine a spotlight on hate speech wherever it appears. The State Department produces an annual human rights report. Henceforth, it should also produce a quarterly War of Ideas Report, which would focus on those religious leaders and writers who are inciting violence against others.

I would compile it in a nondiscriminatory way. I want the names of the Jewish settler extremists who wrote "Muhammad Is a Pig" on buildings in Gaza right up there with Sheik Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, a Saudi who is imam of Islam's holy mosque in Mecca. According to the Memri translation service, the imam was barred from Canada following "a report about his sermons by Memri that included Al-Sudayyis calling Jews 'the scum of the earth' and 'monkeys and pigs' who should be 'annihilated.' Other enemies of Islam were referred to by Sheik Al-Sudayyis as 'worshipers of the cross' and 'idol-worshiping Hindus' who must be fought."

Sunlight is more important than you think. Those who spread hate do not like to be exposed, noted Yigal Carmon, the founder of Memri, which monitors the Arab-Muslim media. The hate spreaders assume that they are talking only to their own, in their own language, and can get away with murder. When their words are spotlighted, they often feel pressure to retract, defend or explain them.

"Whenever they are exposed, they react the next day," Mr. Carmon said. "No one wants to be exposed in the West as a preacher of hate."

We also need to spotlight the "excuse makers," the former State Department spokesman James Rubin said. After every major terrorist incident, the excuse makers come out to tell us why imperialism, Zionism, colonialism or Iraq explains why the terrorists acted. These excuse makers are just one notch less despicable than the terrorists and also deserve to be exposed. When you live in an open society like London, where anyone with a grievance can publish an article, run for office or start a political movement, the notion that blowing up a busload of innocent civilians in response to Iraq is somehow "understandable" is outrageous. "It erases the distinction between legitimate dissent and terrorism," Mr. Rubin said, "and an open society needs to maintain a clear wall between them."

There is no political justification for 9/11, 7/7 or 7/21. As the Middle East expert Stephen P. Cohen put it: "These terrorists are what they do." And what they do is murder.

Finally, we also need to shine a bright light on the "truth tellers." Every week some courageous Arab or Muslim intellectual, cleric or columnist publishes an essay in his or her media calling on fellow Muslims to deal with the cancer in their midst. The truth tellers' words also need to be disseminated globally. "The rulers in these countries have no interest in amplifying the voices of moderates because the moderates often disagree with the rulers as much as they disagree with the extremists," said Husain Haqqani, author of the new book "Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military." "You have to deal us moderates into the game by helping to amplify our voices and exposing the extremists and their amen corner."

Every quarter, the State Department should identify the Top 10 hatemongers, excuse makers and truth tellers in the world. It wouldn't be a cure-all. But it would be a message to the extremists: you are free to say what you want, but we are free to listen, to let the whole world know what you are saying and to protect every free society from hate spreaders like you. Words matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

Still waiting

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:54 PM

We're waiting...

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:38 PM

C'mon , I'm interested. Where is the connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: average american
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:37 PM

ake:

quoting your last post:

I will agree with you on one point, Blair is a consumate liar, but lately he dosn't even try to justify his position.

since i in no way accused or intimate that blair lied about anything, you are the not a consummate liar, you are an average liar

it falls to you ake to speak for yourself, preferably by not lying again, and for yourself call out what you believe to be blair's lies.

judging between blair's statements and your posts, the odds are against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:35 PM

Why does a group of British people bomb Baghdad? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:35 PM

C'mon dianavan (or akenoonoo) answer the guest's question.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:34 PM

I was responding to Ake's comment, "I saw young Muslims being interviewed on TV last week, they can't understand what we're doing in Iraq and what Iraq has to do with the "War on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:17 PM

dianava, you say "...none of the terrorists were from Iraq". Now I assume you're talking about the 9/11 variety but, as we now know, you could just as easily be talking about the 7/7 attacks.

So, pray tell, why does a group of British Pakistanis bomb London? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Its no wonder the teens don't understand the justification for war in Iraq since we now know that the invasion of Iraq was well into the planning stages before 911. Its also confusing because none of the terrorists were from Iraq. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism, whatsoever. If I were them, I'd be confused and angry, too. They are the ones who have to live with the stereotypes and the discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

aa....Wrong.... my take is that Blair followed a policy which disagreed with what a large section of British opinion wanted regardless of the distortions and downright lies used to try and convince them.

I will agree with you on one point, Blair is a consumate liar, but lately he dosn't even try to justify his position.

jpk...Do you seriously believe that if Blair had refused to follow Bush into Iraq the London bombings would still have occured?
The terrorists are British born and bred, most of them hardly out of their teens.
I saw young Muslims being interviewed on TV last week, they can't understand what we're doing in Iraq and what Iraq has to do with the "War on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

The point is, the policy Blair followed was one which he had been warned by many people, including the British intelligence services and the CIA, would produce many many more terrorists, both in Iraq and around the world.

It's a bit as if he was a firefighter using petrol instead of water. And when people comnplained about this they'd be branded as friends of the arsonists.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: average american
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

ake, you sound like an apologist who resents being called an apologist. london underground is bombed, your take is it's blair's fault because he follows a policy which disagrees with what terrorists want.

The fact that blair's policy is one yourself disagree with is just coincidental? this is my dilemma.

given the choice as i understand it i go blair. he can justify his position with words most excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: jpk
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

this would have happened regardless of what blair or anyone else did or did not do,unfortualy that is the truth of it.hate needs no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

According to the beeb the police followed him from a house they had been watching and when confronted he legged it. I'm not at all happy about the police being trigger happy but if that one copper really believed that the guy was a danger to those people on the tube, and he had the power to do something, what was he to do? What would you have done in the time available.

It's pretty obvious the police would have preferred him alive for the information he held.

And as for the akenanoos of this world, do yourself. and us, a favour: nip over to amazon (do it through mudcat of course) and order a book called the Lion and The Unicorn, the author's name is Blair, oh sorry you may know him better by his pen-name George Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Guest aa....I dont think there's anything righteous about terrorism in general, or suicide bombing in particular and I resent your assertion that I support either...under any circumstances.

Blair was well warned before he embarked on his Iraq policy that something of this nature was very likely to happen in the UK along with warnings of instability in the Middle East.

Blair chose to ignore these warnings and massive demos by the public in an attempt to make a name for himself in what he and Bush thought would be an "easy war" .
Saddam would be overthrown and the Iraqi people would hail them as heros.
Blair would surely have accepted the plaudits of victory, now he must accept responsibility for the carnage we see in Iraq and London