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BS: Brit soldiers video
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:50 AM Funny thing here. I have been listening to some ex-military people I know, and they seem to think the troops might have been Eniskillens (now just a cap badge, I think), which would probably make them from Ireland (Northern Ireland, although I am told quite a lot of people from the Republic of Ireland used to join the Eniskillens to get training in a trade). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:44 AM Let's agree Keith your soldiers were wrong in the response they took. And agree they were also wrong to get caught.It will be of interest to many of us the outcome of the enquiry. I saw in an earlier post from someone who had a brother or brother in law out serving in Iraq with the British Army and he was aware of the video two years ago. It was silly not to erase it knowing the sh1t it would cause if it ever got out. Strange the trophies that soldiers bring home now adays. I would of been happy with a helmet of bayonet ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:04 AM I will leave the mud slinging to others. Thanks for your reply, though I have to say that I am not convinced. Perhaps it is just me. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM I go to almost all the threads on this site, though I don't post to all of them. The several times I've read over threads about American politics, I didn't post because I like to be careful what I say about the Commander and Chief, though I will say easily that I didn't vote for him. The threads about American soldiers I will always stay away from because I don't want to get pulled into being the spokesperson for American military members. Also, I'm proud of the soldiers I know and hate to see nasty things said about them. I enjoy taking part of Irish threads because almost everyone who participates brings great knowledge and fire to the threads. Hope I'm answering your questions.... I love Divis Sweeney's post about the lady on the roof of Divis flats because every time you try to use his words against him, you fall short. Plus, it was a hilarious story! :) Let's see. What else did you want to know? Oh, yes. If someone had informed me that I was supposed to start a thread on the newly published photos, I would have done so. As the memo didn't reach, I had no idea! Good luck with your attempts to start another mud-slinging match, Keith. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM Oh forgot to add Keith. American mudcatters are always nice to me. Some lovely pm's from time to time.Funny how they don't cast up past events to me.Next question please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:02 PM Then take it up with the American mudcatters. Don't forget to hit them about their history as you do with me. You could mention vietnam or hiroshima! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:49 PM Not good enough Divis. There was every bit as much media coverage of the US videos as of the British ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:30 PM Probably because I know as much about American affairs as you know about Irish ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM Why did you never start any threads about US misdeeds then Sweeney, or even contribute? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 02:52 PM Just wish to say to those posters above who are pushing for a reaction from me as to their remarks, you are wasting your time. Regarding the incident which happened in Iraq,It was wrong be it American, British or whatever nation's armed forces. They are there to maintain peace on the streets and not to attack anyone in the manner of street thugs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 02:16 PM Epona, I accept what you say about your own service peoples' crimes, but I could only judge you by what you have posted here. You have never contributed to any discussion of mistreatment by US personel in Iraq or Guantanamo, but post extensively when Divis starts a thread highly critical of UK troops. While that thread was running more film and photos of US mistreatment emerge, but you make no comment. You also express mirth at Divis little joke about shooting British soldiers being really a sexual adventure. Can you understand why I formed the opinion that you were posting with an anti british agenda? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Mr Fox Date: 18 Feb 06 - 12:58 PM "These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught." Really? They reflect the British 'values' I know about - Racism, an in-group mentality of superiority, a culture of violence and basic anti-intellectualism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 18 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM Keith, Saw the pictures released by the Australian newspapaer when they came out. I brought my boss into my office to see them and then I talked to the "big guy" in charge and asked for his permission to have a meeting with the personnel at my location. Did the same thing with the soldiers in my Guard unit as well, and we discussed the pictures and vented our frustration, anger and horror at the newly released pictures. As much as you would like to make it an "us against the British" issue, I can and will only speak for myself. I said it on the other thread as well. Atrocities committed by soldiers make me feel ill. It does outrage me because people have a tendency to think that when one of a group does evil acts, we all do. I didn't become a soldier to mistreat prisoners. I became one because I believe it is essential to serve my country for everything it has given me. My soldiers here feel the same way. Threads like these that broach subjects that can often lead to heated debate are very much needed. It is through discussion that we can learn from others and possibly see a different side to the situation and alter our point of view. Though I love joking, I've always tried to be civil. I would appreciate it, Keith, if you would drop the insinuations where I am concerned. I would hate for another important thread to be closed due to it becoming a "name-calling session." It would be very much appreciated. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:33 AM We will probably see more such pictures in the future now that technology allows them to be obtained/produced much easier than with the technology of the past - but that in itself is not connected to whether there will be more or fewer such actual incidents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM And no sexual humiliation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:12 AM Don, you said " These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught." How about patience, tolerance and restraint? Although attacked with lethal force, they fired no shots but went forth in riot gear but without firearms. Ever see pictures of any other national troops on the ground in Iraq without guns? (Including Iraqi soldiers and police?) You said, "Since when has "He did it to me first been accepted as a defence, except in a situation where the response has been a)instantaneous, and b)Instinctive. No considered response after elapsed time can be either." We have seen the complete sequence now. The explosions went off, the troops wents straight out, made the snatch,and brought them in. There was no elapsed time or considered response. Again I do not say it was right, indeed I used strong words to condemn it. I do say that it was understandable and in the context of recent events in Iraq it was a comparitively minor occurrance. No lives lost or bones broken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Pied Piper Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:58 AM When this story appeared on the telly a thought crossed my mind that it would be Divis that started a thread about it here, and guess what. I'm just glad that those nice people in Sien Fien/PIRA never stooped to such behaviour. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:54 AM PS, if they had been Isreali soldiers, imagine what Martin Gibson would have been saying about antisemitism by now. Quick, Joeclone, delete this before Martin spots it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM No, I don't think this is purely a technical legal issue. I don't think that was the purpose of the original thread either. And, to head off any other invasions by those with particular perspectives, I don't think a detailed re-examination of the Irish situation (The Irish and the English, whether defined by birthplace or heritage, have been disagreeing since about 1630 and more, but we are now both subjects of our masters in Brussells) is likely to illuminate the area, and further, views coloured by those issues are unlikely to help understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Feb 06 - 05:49 AM I realise that I seem to be a lone voice on this issue, but I am disconcerted by the general tenor of the response to this incident. As an Englishman, I am not trying to conduct a hate campaign against Britain. Completely the reverse in fact. These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught. IMHO, their actions were at best reprehensible, and at worst damaging to the stated intention to establish rule of law in a new democratic Iraq. Richard has referred to a number of PMs which passed between us after the original thread was closed, and the following is part of my last message to him. ----"Now you are really stretching. So far in fact that I begin to wonder if you are pulling my chain by playing devil's advocate? That comment seems completely illogical, in that we are talking (are we not?) about rule of law. Now I'm not conversant with the law in the way you are (obviously), but I cannot believe that you are serious. Since when has "He did it to me first been accepted as a defence, except in a situation where the response has been a)instantaneous, and b)Instinctive. No considered response after elapsed time can be either. In the British Army, as in most modern fighting forces, soldiers are trained to handle a multitude of different situations, and their training is designed to ingrain the correct response to an extent where it becomes automatic. The reaction we saw in that video was contrary to the training, and owed more to revenge and punishment than to the containment of the situation. Punishment is the prerogative of the Judiciary, whether British or Iraqi, not the military".---- It is not so long ago that British and Americans catters were making pretty strong comments on the "heavy handed" actions of US troops who were in a war situation fighting to pacify towns where they were battling house to house with enemy forces. Yet we have some of those same people trying to justify over the top action by British troops in an essentially peacekeeping situation. Let me say it one last time, then I'm out of here. These actions CANNOT be justified on any legal basis, and reflect no credit on my country, which these men are supposed to be serving. In addition they have given an almighty boost to the recruiting of more fighters by the insurgency they are there to contain. That's all folks. Bye Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 05:18 AM Since the release of the video, some much more disturbing images of prisoner abuse by US soldiers have emerged. These passed without comment by Divis, Tir and Epona. It was almost as if their only interest in the subject was to further their hate campaign against Britain. But I am sure that is not the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Gurney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:42 AM When I was a young recruit, there was an incident in Aldershot when a couple of soldiers were beaten up by a gang of Teddy-boys, -which should date it,- and we were ORDERED not to go there in groups of less than 3, ordered to wear boots and belts,(Normally illegal, and belts being a considerable weapon) and ordered to check out any fracas, in case soldiers needed help. Soldiers are not policemen, and they didn't join the army because they are shrinking violets. If you go looking for trouble with soldiers you will probably find it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Teribus Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM Very well put Mr. Bridge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM Thank you Richard for putting a bit of perspective on this one. Too many people with single issue politics and tunnel vision jump up and down in self righteous anger when these subjects are discussed. There is an awful lot of "My enemies enemy, is my friend" in most of these posts. While I do not doubt the authenticity of the film or condone the actions taken, I can almost understand the frustration that led to the event. What I do have my doubts about is the authenticity of the background commentary. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:16 AM For what it is worth, and to correct the perception seemingly enjoyed by the sender of a stream of PMs to me, I repeat that the situation cannot properly be judged without considering both perspectives. It appears possible that crimes have been committed by the soldiers - but the most recent relevant UK case I know of, involving a video seen on national TV of about 4 policemen with modern long truncheons whacking the hell out of a lone person arrested and lying on the ground, one policeman twice whipping in from the edge of the fracas just to get a couple of licks in with his truncheon, resulted in a case being brought by the prisoner which failed on the ground that the force used was reasonable and justified. The issue on the thread(s) seems to be whether the soldiers' actions should cause outrage. Whether there was a crime is not the be-all and end-all of that matter. We mostly commit some crimes on a daily basis. These were not relatively peaceful demonstrators like those the police crushed with horses in Red Lion Square. The information we have seems to indicate they were not peaceful bystanders brutalised and arrested (or vice versa) like in the miners' strike. These were rioters with (or immediately involved with others with) explosive weapons, who chose to attack soldiers, and received a prompt response. It is not like the calculated endless brutality in Guantanamo Bay, or like Abu Graib, or even like the systematic brutalisation of captives that Iraqi troops handed out to captured US personnel. It is not like the machine-gunning of Moslems in former Czechoslovakia, or Jews in Nazi Germany (or captured British troops by Americans in the American war of independence). It is not like Israeli armoured bulldozers crushing Palestian homes. It is not like "freedom fighters" (wherever from) blowing up uninvolved civilians. In perspective, if the rioters had been soldiers, their treatment would probably seem to have been a pretty clear breach of the Geneva convention. But to call it an outrage is an over-reaction that results in there being no appropriate words to use for far greater wrongs. The reaction that it was a huge outrage seems largely to be based on an over-eagerness to condemn the British. What was seen on the video was not proper, probably excessive, but understandable, and not amazing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM No comment from me here. Just here to read posts on subject and not fall out with anyone ! |
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Subject: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM Sorry to start a new thread, but the old one is closed. In case anyone was interested in the supposed object of the thread, last I heard 3 soldiers had been arrested by the RMPs, and one Iraqui had come forward claiming to be a victim. He was aged 27 so even two years ago we would not be talking child abuse Tir (who defines a kick in the crotch as a sexual act).
This thread is about the conduct of British soldiers in Iraq. Please discuss other subjects in other threads. -Joe Offer- |
