BS: Irshad Manji on the wall

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:55 PM

BTW, where are the examples of Irshad Manji speaking out against the occupation?

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:52 PM

Just about every reponse you made to Little Hawk in the Iran thread is an ad hominem argument, robomatic. And your responses to my sources are invariably in the form of ad hominem arguments. You seem to only recognise ad hominem arguments when they come from others, but not yourself. You have one hell of a double standard for yourself as compared to people with whom you disagree.

Ok, you're not Martin Gibson, Guest, C.Ham, you're a troll who is trying to look like Martin Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:48 PM

In an attempt to marginalize Irshad Manji, an out-lesbian Muslim woman, CarolC's tactic was to tar and feather her as a "tool" of the Israeli government.

When that failed, CarolC then chose to try and shoot the messenger by saying that I'm Martin Gibson.

That, dear lady, is an outright, baldfaced lie. Something you're obviously a master of.

BTW, I never said that CarolC lives in a trailer. I said that Irshad Manji doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:24 PM

Carol:

I only end up even mentioning ad hominem with you. I've considered the source on a few occasions, but by and large I think you are wrong, reflectively wrong, about me in that it is invariably you who go after the messenger.

As to trailers, some of my favorite people (and relatives) live in trailers.

Is C Ham actually MG under guise? I haven't picked up on that link. C Ham certainly doesn't sound like MG, ie. verbage is under control. Are you trying to stress C Ham to see if MG pops out of the can? This oughta be interesting!

And again, Carol, you haven't really spoken to the issue. You've repeated your tactic of linking to people who appear to say what you already believe, but why do you believe certain links and not others?

As to being paid for words, most published people really like to be paid for their words. I know I would.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

One more thing, Martin... the only compensation I receive from writing the things I do in this forum and elsewhere is a clear conscience.

Irshad Manji, on the other hand, is paid with money for her words.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:23 PM

Guest,C Ham (aka: Martin Gibson), could you please post some links to Manji speaking out against the Israeli occupation? I'd like to see that.

And by the way, Martin, we don't live in a trailer out in the middle of nowhere any more. We live in a house... in a city.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

Irshad Manji has proven herself, time and again, to be a free-thinking commentator unafraid to speak the truth, no matter who her audience is.

As an out-lesbian woman who is unafraid to challenge the status-quo, she is a pariah to mainstream Isalm. Yet, she bravely fights to change things in her community.

She is hardly a "tool" of the Israeli government. She has spoken out, in Israel, against the occupation and she regularly speaks out against the Israeli occupation to mainstream Jewish audiences in North America and Europe.

At the same time, she speaks the truth about how the Palestinians have been continually lied to and cheated by their own corrupt leadership.

Attempts to marginalize her with inuendo like "tool of the Isreali government" are the nothing but work of propagandists afraid of honesty and truth.

Irhad Mani doesn't sit in some tin trailer in the middle of nowhere typing out lies for a small band of followers on a webchat forum. She is out there, putting herself at risk, all over North America, Europe and the Middle East day after day. She is a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:20 AM

Just interpret it all subjectively as you go through the available evidence. Sift it into what you consider reasonable and what you don't. The conclusions you will come to will support your established view of the matter. I can guaran-damn-tee it. This is the way it normally works with human beings. ;-P

George, my "established view of the matter" prior to the spring of 2002 was not so different from robomatic's, so you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:07 AM

And on the subject of ad hominem attacks, that's almost the only tactic you ever use, robomatic, so you're not in a position to point fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:05 AM

I don't need to refute Manji's article. Neta Golan does a much better job of it than I could ever do. Neta Golan is a Jewish Israeli who is married to a Palestinian and who lives in the West Bank. She lives with the reality of the wall every day, and because of this, she has far more credibility on this subject than Irshad Manji. Needless to say, Neta Golan is against the wall.

Neta Golan is living proof that the Palestinians don't want to kill the Jews, that the Palestinians don't want to drive the Jews into the sea, and that what the Palestinians want is to be left alone by Israel so they can live their lives in peace.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2730

Justin Podur, author of the article in the first link I posted, is also Jewish, and he has spent a lot more time in the occupied Palestinian areas than Irshad Manji.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM

Just interpret it all subjectively as you go through the available evidence. Sift it into what you consider reasonable and what you don't. The conclusions you will come to will support your established view of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:17 AM

Carol:

You haven't refuted Irshad Manji's original article. You have simply attacked Irshad Manji. I believe you have popularized the ad hominem attack in this and other threads. When you wish to draw attention from the logic of an argument, you attack the arguer. When someone returns the favor, you howl 'ad hominem!' (ad nausea).

The original article is a depiction of a real situation. It doesn't take sides, it presents a non-volatile frame of reference from which additional discussion is possible. And I had totally missed it, so thanks C Ham for bringing it to notice. As another poster noted in another thread (Another Kind Of Insurgent) Islam will be reformed from within by women taking voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 07:22 AM

Irshad Manji on the wall, Irshad Manji on the wall. Take her down and pass her around--is this a musical thread yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM

Nice try, Wolfgang (your 21 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM post). But you haven't refuted any of the specific charges that the people you are criticizing made against Manji. You only gave your interpretation of their tone and attitude, and your opinion of that. And of course, Irshad Manji's words are criticized by many people as being full of hate and venom as well. It's all pretty subjective, isn't it? I guess who we see as being full of hate and venom really depends on whose ox is being gored. Personally, I'd like to see a criticism (from you) of the content of the links I provided that has at least as much substance as the content of the links I provided. So far, you haven't even come close.

BTW, you didn't ask me for documentation about my assertion that Manji is a tool of the Israeli government. You asked me for a source for my comment that her visit to an occupied Palestinian area was paid for by the government of Israel.

In fact, Manji herself claims that her trip to Gaza (the only visit I have been able to find any evidence of to any occupied Palestinian area) was paid for by "Zionists" (Manji's words, not mine), and that she had an Israeli guide during her visit to Gaza. But whether or not the government was directly involved in sponsoring her trip is difficult to assertain from what she has said.

However, it isn't necessary for the government of Israel to be actively involved in Manji's activities for her to be their tool.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 06:33 PM

So does the child that has been hit. Just thought I'd add that, because it applies so well to all these dire issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

Thanks for the two links (one of them I knew already), Carol. Both are prime examples how not to write a review. They are full of hate and venom. As we say in German (you may have a similar saying): the dog that has been hit, barks.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM

Just by the way: The title of the article linked to by C. Ham in the first post was made by the NYT and not by Ms. Manji:

Irshad Manji's representative clarifies Irshad has never claimed to "love" the wall; that sentiment was attributed to her article by the headline from the New York Times, which she had no control over.

The writer of the profile (in the journal The blanket, W.) misrepresents Irshad's views on the Israeli wall. Irshad NEVER says that she "loves" the wall. She states the opposite; that she looks forward to the day when the wall will no longer be in the West Bank. She also challenges her fellow Muslims to stop the culture of suicide bombing that led to the wall in the first place.
It is the editors of the New York Times who gave her article the unfortunate and misleading title of "How I Learned to Love The Wall." She had no control over the title given. She is responsible for the content of the article, and in it she makes perfectly clear that she is at best ambivalent about the wall...
Adriana Salvia • 20 March 2006

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 10:54 AM

Irshad Manji is a tool.... (Carol)
When asked whose tool you have claimed she is a tool of the Israeli government without a "probably" inserted. What's your evidence for that?

(Michael, I ask for evidence or backup in one particular case and not in general)

As for that "probably", Carol, I find it most curious that you don't simply retract a statement of fact you have made without backup information. Just to be helpful, in the many partisan webpages it is usually claimed that "A Canadian zionist" has paid for the trip. I guess that you simply have read the information there and have misremembered "a Canadian zionist" as "the Israeli government". Of course, it would be possible to read the primary source, Ms Manji's book (BTW, you could profit a lot from doing that), in which she describes her trip, who has paid for it and under which conditions she has accepted. A factually wrong statement doesn't get any better by the insertion of a 'probably'.

And by the way, Guest,20 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM, the "Israeli government" is not the same thing as "the Jews". (Carol)

If ysine ira et studio, you'll find that you have made an assumption that is not supported by the text you have tried to understand: as tools of the Jews, the Israeli government, etc. With the etc. it becomes clear for the normal reader that 'Israeli government' and 'the jews' are not synonyma in that context as you have misconstructed in order to make a cheap point. Both terms are just two of several nonidentical terms like in 'Canada, USA, etc.'

You may not like GUESTs contributions but try to be fair and not to construct something which isn't in a post. Just making fewer assumptions might help.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 09:15 PM

And by the way, Guest,20 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM, the "Israeli government" is not the same thing as "the Jews". And it is and act of anti-Semitism to suggest otherwise.

Maybe you're one of the white supremacists who, while pretending to be Jewish, sent a death threat to the author of the article in the first link in my 20 Mar 06 - 08:45 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM

(but thanks, michalr)

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 08:45 PM

No, not for that one, Wolfgang. That's why I said "probably".

Some perspectives on Irshad Manji, from people other than me...

http://www.yayacanada.com/manji.html

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=4624


Here are some excerpts from the second link that highlight Manji's posturing and hypocrisy...

"Manji is best when she is flippantly dismissing critics who exhibit homophobia, sexism, or ignorance of one kind or another. Indeed, she devotes a substantial portion of her site and 10 minutes of her public talk to show herself answering such critics. Her point, perhaps, is that humour can help even in serious situations.

She might be right. In one of her notes (35) she describes the treatment of an intolerant Muslim cleric by a queer rights group: "In response to Sheikh Omar, two gay-rights groups, the Lesbian Avengers and Outrage, issued a 'Queer Fatwa' against him. The fatwa reportedly read: 'Omar Bakri Mohammad is hereby sentenced to 1000 years of relentless sodomitical torture.' Pity his torturer."

Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism (QUIT Palestine) showed that they, too, have a sense of humour, with their recent actions in Berkeley. QUIT Palestine is fully consistent, recognizing the oppression of gays in Palestinian society (36) . Their most recent campaign was on 'Estee Slaughter':

"The queer group who first settled Starbucks launched a new marketing campaign today, introducing shoppers at Macy's Union Square in San Francisco to its new line of killer products from Estee Slaughter.

"About 20 activists from Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism descended on the downtown store today with samples of Village Vanishing Cream, Bloody Hand Cream, Atrocity Cover Up, Defoliant, WhiteRight Ethnic Cleanser and Kill Me Pink Lip Bomb. They gave away 500 samples of the new scent Eau de Occupation to appreciative passersby.

"The promotional leaflet explains that Ronald Lauder, chairman of Estee Lauder International, serves as president of the Jewish National Fund, which was formed in 1901 to establish Jewish settlements by purchasing land from absentee landlords. After the state of Israel was formed, the JNF was made responsible for developing lands expropriated by the government, including 531 villages that were destroyed by a campaign of ethnic cleansing by Jewish terrorists working with the newly formed Israeli "Defense" Forces." (37)

QUIT Palestine is a very inspiring solidarity group. So is the International Solidarity Movement, the group of Palestinians, Israelis, and internationals with whom I visited Palestine last year. That group organizes and supports Palestinians in non-violent direct action and resistance to the Israeli occupation, and, like those struggling Israeli groups, hopes to help shift the balance of forces in favour of a just peace. One of Manji's tactics, used several times through her book, is that of the 'unanswered email'. In her notes, she writes: "In the months following my trip to Israel, I contacted various Arab, Palestinian, and Muslim organizations about sending me on a journalistic mission to the Middle East so that I could appreciate things from a non-Zionist perspective. Not one of them replied to my request." (38)   Let me say publicly that on Nov. 20, 2003, at her public talk at Ryerson university in Toronto, in front of several hundred people who came to listen to her speech, "Defending Israel is Defending Diversity", I told Irshad Manji that she has a standing invitation to go to the Occupied Territories with the International Solidarity Movement. I gave her my email address and the sites for ISM Canada (www.ismcanada.org) and ISM (www.palsolidarity.org). She has not replied to my invitation."


"Opening the (Manji's) website, one is exposed to the picture of a young woman in an elaborate hijab, an outfit that covers all but her face. This type of picture invokes the women of Afghanistan, who have suffered over 25 years of brutality, rape, and torture at the hands of Soviet invaders, the jehadis trained by the US, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia in order to fight the Soviet invaders, and the factions that those jehadis split into - the 'Northern Alliance', the Taliban, and now the Northern Alliance again. Afghanistan's women have become the symbol of oppression by Islamic regimes. But Afghanistan's women have been resisting this brutality and sexism from the beginning. One of the most remarkable organizations in the world is the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). But there is not a word about RAWA in Manji's book. The story of how these women built a covert organization to teach women to read, to document the atrocities that the West suddenly became interested in for the duration of the US bombing of Afghanistan, to strive for a secular democracy under the most repressive conditions imaginable, gets only an oblique mention: "Old Afghan women, some of them refugees, now attend schools that younger women run, and that they ran in secret during the Taliban's time." (pg. 180). Manji might not have had access to Anne Brodsky's excellent book on RAWA, 'With All Our Strength', which was just published(2) , but she certainly had access to their website(3) and to their words. There are real women, fighting and dying for secular democracy and against the fundamentalism that Manji decries. But Manji has no time for them.

Perhaps this is because RAWA was against the US bombing of their country while Manji wanted to say "America, your thrashing of the Taliban made millions of Afghanis happy. Since then, though, your failure to post soldiers beyond Kabul has made only tribal warlords and Taliban sympathizers smile." (pg. 143). America's "thrashing of the Taliban" also left at least several thousand Afghani civilians dead by cluster bombs, 'daisy cutters', and other weapons, by conservative estimates. An inconvenient fact, and one Manji makes no mention of, no doubt because her moral responsibility as a Muslim compels her to ignore it."


"Perhaps it is because this does not fit the picture of the West (or of Muslims) Manji is trying to paint that she also denies Queer Muslims a voice, even Queer Muslims from her very own Toronto. Salaam describes itself as follows. "Salaam: Queer Muslim community is a Muslim Identified Organization dedicated to social justice, peace and human dignity through its work to bring all closer to a world that is free from injustice, including prejudice, discrimination, racism, misogyny, sexism and homophobia." (34)   The activists of Salaam link from their website to Project Threadbare, a coalition of justice groups that tried to fight the detention and deportation of 21 Indian and Pakistani Muslim men based on virtually no credible evidence. A group of queer activists well aware of discrimination and homophobia in the Muslim community, Salaam recognizes that the struggle for social justice means struggling against all injustice. It is no wonder that they, like RAWA, or so many courageous Israelis, Palestinians, and Muslims, have no place in Manji's book."

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 08:19 PM

Bullshit, Guest. Carol's opinions as expressed here are usually well-researched, and she provides plenty of backup. It's anonymous shitslingers like you who have no credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:41 PM

Of course she doesn't, CarolC makes that stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 05:47 PM

probably sponsored by the Israeli government (Carol)

Have you any source for that, Carol?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM

If Irshad Manji has gone to Palestine "once or twice," that's one or two times more than CarolC.

Irshad Manji, Salman Rushdie and other anti-fundamentalist Muslims have been slurred by Islamicists as tools of the Jews, the Israeli government, etc. CarolC's "probably sponsored by the Israeli govenrment" slur just proves what boat she's in.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

I don't think Irshad Manji has spent very much time at all in the Palestinian occupied areas. I think she has gone there once or twice, probably sponsored by the Israeli government. And that's whose tool she is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 01:00 PM

CarolC,

An Arab Muslim who does not agree with you is a "tool." Whose "tool" is she?

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

Unlike you, Irshad Manji is a Muslim who has actually spent much time among the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. You do not begin to have her credibility on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 12:40 PM

Irshad Manji is a tool. Otherwise she would only support the wall if it was being built along the Green Line, or along a route that is mutually agreed upon by Israel and the Palestinians. I support the latter, but I do not support the wall along its current route which is, in reality, nothing more than a blatant land grab. Creating "facts on the ground".

Subject: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 12:32 PM

Irshad Manji, the Islamic scholar, published an excellent commentary on the wall separating Israel from the Palestinian territories in the New York Times on Saturday.

Irshad Manji in the New York Times