Performers fees (% or flat fee?)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 09:51 AM

the first folk club I went to,in 1966, was the Downe folk club,I was 15 years old and still at school.
The entrance fee was two shillings for members and two shillings and sixpence for non members.among the guests I saw there were Don Shepherd,Ralph May[mctell],pete Stanley and wizz jones,Downes and Beer,Joe Stead,GerryLockran,Cliff Aungier,a bluegrass group called the red clay ramblers,Dave Bryant,DavePlane,the price was the same on the door whether the group was a solo artist or a group.
as a schoolboy I could afford this,and was bitten by the bug,and later went on to record lps, cds, and play many clubs myself,if the entrance price had been more, I couldnt have afforded it,everybody who talks about encouraging young people into clubs should bear this in mind.
folk music should not become an entertainment that only the wealthy can afford.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:48 AM

I agree ,it may not be a value judgement by you Ruth,but punters may see it differently,.
and as I pointed out THE PROMOTER may have to pay more because there is an agent involved.,and the more expensive guest may not necessarily attract more people.
I should have also made clear that I was talking about folk clubs.
Now at folk festivals this doesnt happen[people may be getting paid different rates] but there is an overall festival ticket price.
clubs are clubs,not in my opinion concerts,the best sort of clubs in my opinion are those where,people will go every week., regardless of the guest and having faith in the organiser, in so far that whoever he books, will be what they want to hear.
to Dave Polshaw, I have to come all the way from Ireland,YESyouare doing the right thing Dave, by charging the same price on the door.
and there is an alternative,if you think your going to have more people, find a bigger venue for specific nights[I realise that may not be easy].,but with forward planning it may be possible,although your regular audience may not want to come to the different venue.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:19 AM

"Here is something that does annoy me.
The different pricing for different guests,that implies that one guest is better than another,"

Why, Dick? Concerts at every level charge different amounts for different performers. I had Park Bench Social Club a couple of weeks ago. Young, fresh, exciting musucians - £8 on the door. I have Ralph McTell in a couple of months. Tickets are £16.50. It's not a value judgement. It's about what the market will take, based on many different factors, not least of which is the artist's fee.

Are you suggesting that every artist should receive the exact same fee, regardless of longevity of career, size of fanbase, etc?

And if people will pay more in a venue to see some artists than others, why not in a folk club?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 06:44 AM

whoops - slipped a buuton there - Next week we book the Battlefield Band. 4 performers have to come all the way from Scotland for £25 each. Doesn't seem right to me.

OK the above examples may be a bit exteme but, as an artist, Dick, tell me how I can charge the same door fee for artists who charge diferent prices when I know the most I can get in our room is 40 people. As it happens we do charge the same on the door every Monday apart from the free or very cheap singers nights. It does sort of pan out becaue we know that the better the artist the bigger than pull and the more people turm up. Apart from when we got 6 people in to see Johnny Silvo :-( But that is the contrary folk audience for you!

It is not a rhetorical question btw - I really DO want to know how other people address this issue!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 06:36 AM

How do we get round that though, Dick? If we book you and you are quite happy to turn up for, for instance, £100, we can charge 40 people £2.50 each. This is quite significant because 40 is round about the maximum we can get in our folk club room. OK? Next week we book Show of hands. We charge, as you suggest, the same on the door. So Phil and Steve get £50 each - Making you twice as good as either of them individualy? Next week we book

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 06:04 AM

Well I can say that I promote every performer in the same way.

I have only put the price up once, becuase I needed to ensure recovery of costs and a limit of 70 people.

Once the price gets above a certain amount, then I do need to do that.

If you put a band on you would expect to pay more money and if you don't have funding, then you need to recover the cost.

My ticket prices for Saturday concerts are normally £5 Only if the fees go above a certain threshold, do I have to consider the ticket price increase.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 05:49 AM

the next thing that happens is the promoter spends more effort promoting the more expensive guest,[if he doesnt hasve arts funding]because the money 300[hypothetically]as against 150, comes out of his own pocket so he promotes twice as hard .

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 05:44 AM

Here is    something that does annoy me.
The different pricing for different guests,that implies that one guest is better than another,when it may be that one guest is more expensive because he has an agent to pay.
Following on from this, tickets only for some guests,but not for others,again because one guest, may have an agent to pay,and so is more expensive,but the impression the punter gets is that the act that is having tickets sold is better,which is often not the case.
I know I said earlier that ,I didnt care how much was charged at the door providing I got my fees,I should have added providing all guests appear at that club for the same door price.
now I know there is nothing I can do about it,and in the end its up to the organiser, how they price their door[butPricing differently for different artists, I think sends out the wrong message about quality].

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:30 PM

I guess anyone doing a job for real deserves more respect than those who just review or criticise. I will therefore refrain from commenting on anyones chosen occupation or performance. I will however head for bed wondering why some people are not happy unless they are involved in argument and confrontation.

I'll try and get back into fixing rather than fighting when the current spate of sabre rattling and nonsensical rhetoric is over.

Good night.

Dave

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:31 PM

Real jobs (being it singing, fishing, or working in an office) equals real money to pay real bills. That's the difference between the hobbyist, the semi-pro (who makes a bit extra) and the pro who if they don't make money can't pay the bills with all that that entails. Different field but been there, done that, ain't nice.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:32 PM

Steeleye Span - thats not punishment - thats pleasure :-)

String him up by the scrotum and burn him at the stakes LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:06 PM

Equating professional musicians with hobbyists who just got lucky or with cruel bloodsportspersons who torture fish for fun or hit balls mindlessly around a gold course is hardly 'conciliatory'. Nor is calling Blowzabella 'smutty'.

Let him be condemned to listening to Steeleye as punishment. The whole lot, omitting Please To See The King and Storm Force 10.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

Ow, come on countess, ian's finishing in a conciliatory vein; no need to kick him in the "i"s. It's Saturday night, let's crack open a bottle, put Steeleye Span on and think of nice things.

OK, Steeleye was a joke.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

No, far worse than that you managed to show a complete disregard for the importance of music, to denigrate the vocation of professional musicians by referring to their art as a 'pastime' and be utterly and inappropriately sexist in seaside 'comic' postcard stylee about the way in which you imagine some women fail to relate to men's work.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:11 PM

guess i managed to end yet another thread,but at least i did it without smut lol.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 11:58 AM

I'm sorry but I am going to refrain from making comments about men who spend hours with their rods in their hands - whether they do it professionally or just aspire to spending more time doing it.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

So,you don't know any Angler and golfers who would not work on his passtime full time ?I think the hours they spend with rod and club in hand says different.Their other half would say it is more of a job to them than their real jobs.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:41 AM

Just been catching up after a break and reading this thread with a degree of puzzlement.

First of all, the only times I have been offered the % or flat fee choice is in situations where the % would represent more than the flat fee, so it's hardly a hardship. It does mean that the club would get to make a slight profit on the door take, but as I judge whether or not to take the gig on the basis of the flat fee (in case it all goes pear-shaped because of another competing event in the same area or a sudden epidemic of 'flu) I have no problem at all with the club making that profit. It's not at my expense. I do my best for all gigs I play by using my mailing list (not just emails, but postcards to street addresses) because it's always in my best interest to have the biggest audience possible.

I can choose whether or not to take the lower paying gigs, just as a club can choose whether or not to pay my usual fee. I don't worry about the price at the door. The only time I've been seriously annoyed is when I agreed to do a gig for the door take and found that they passed a beer mug around half way through the night and suggested a donation of £1 - which represented less than the cost of a pint which I considered insulting.   The room on that occasion was packed, the audience very appreciative, so why on earth the organiser thought £1 was appropriate is a mystery to me. Luckily I sold a good quantity of CDs, but money from CD sales tends to go straight into the fund to make the next one so it's not the same as a fee in my accounting system.

As to this business of "fair pay" we're in very murky territory. Because I'm fairly useless at self promotion I do a number of different things to make ends meet and pay the bills, and I'm aware of how many people in "real" life work incredibly hard for remarkably little money, often travelling long distances, doing a lot of research in their own time and having had plenty of unpaid training. So I do still consider it a privilege to be able to earn any part of my living by doing something I love. I'm also constantly impressed by how hard the club organisers work and how much of an effort they make to ensure their club survives, when for them it's on top of a day job and for non-commercial rewards. My own experience over the past decade at least is that I've almost always had excellent accommodation offered to me and wonderful hospitality (I have some other tales to tell from the eighties, but that's a long time ago now).

There are other comparisons to be made: I have had long chats with people involved in the comedy circuit and the jazz circuit, both of which tend to run on similar lines to the folk clubs. Folk performers seem to get a better deal, from all I've heard, mostly because of the sense of community that we've built up over the years. And my husband is an actor working in the historical interpretation field - again, my normal fee is better than his, even though for his work there's considerably more job-specific research to do and longer hours to work after the travelling and preparation times.

Of course I'd love to have more gigs, earn more at each one and sell loads of albums. I'd also love to rate a feature in fRoots, be on Women's Hour, adopted by Smooth Ops and all the rest. If there's anyone on this thread who can help me with any of these aspirations, please let me know! In the meantime, I'm only worried that most clubs and most organisers are past their first flush of youth, so I'll check out George's other thread to see how we can improve matters in that direction.

Anne
http://www.annelister.com

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

I don't know any job done by anyone else that I consider a pastime. It's their job. If they're not good enough they don't succeed. I don't want the pressure of being a pro footballer thank you, but I can enjoy a kick around with my mates on the park. Same applies to music. If you can get up there and make your living, then do it. It's very different to having a session with some mates in a pub.
All jobs that pay bills are pressure not pastime!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:04 PM

Great to see i stirred a few people.Yes i will use capital I if you want me to and yes i will use my opinion.
If you are the organiser or performer in any form,ie Support or main performer,it is all a labour of love.You seem to think i have never travelled long distances to play for free,WRONG.You also think you know my daytime job and a little about me,WRONG.
Yes i do think people who do any job that is regarded as a pass time by many is lucky.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:50 AM

Mmmmm - posted this before but I can't see it now - I'll put it down to Gremlins or operator error:-) May not be exact bit along the lines off -

I would agree entirely with Blowzabella that no professional artist has had a go at club organisers but conversely no professional organiser has had a go at artists either:-) There has been rather unprofessional comments from parties on both sides if you look back over the thread though. Rather than get stuck on this point though can we get on with the business of sorting out between us what to do about it?

I am quite fortunate in that the landlord at the club I run is kind enough to let has have the room for another night. I hope I am doing my bit to redress the balance by having concerts where the artist does have more input over the door charge and format, as well as the standard night, where we do the 100% of the door at standard charge. It worked very well with the Boat Band (I hope! Greg Stephens should be able to confirm that) I will start a new thread to see if we get any takers for future ones - Hope George will take us up on it eventualy.

Lets get on with fixing things instead of blaming other people for breaking them!

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:51 PM

This post sort of runs across both this and the any future for folk threads.

I spent 14 years as a full-time professional on the "Craft Circuit". I've done craft fairs, folk festivals, shopping centres, country shows, the lot. As a demonstrating craftsman then like a musician I'm in the entertainment business, honestly. A couple of thoughts. One - I could have had a similar discussion over the years on the craft circuit about the merits of different organisers/venues/door fees etc. Two - we all disagreed, it depended on what we did and if we were pro/semi-pro or subsidising a pension. Three - it is only now when I do a lot of things that aren't immediately Craft Shows (Schools, workshops, heritage/traditional working events) that I'm making a bit of money again. For the latter my pricing is flexible - a straight demo/workshop is a flat fee which is negotiable depending on what they want, If I can trade then I reduce the fee and either split my take with the organiser or I can reduce my prices so their punters have a bonus on their entry. Sometimes we don't agree, I have only so many days I can earn a living and, yes, it's competetive and I can't do a Sunday before Christmas for £100 because it's a prime time on the markets.

I deal with professional organisers (good and bad), amateur organisers (ditto), publis bodies (ditto). The bottom line is I have to make a living and the organiser has to balance their books. If we both understand that then we can usually work something out, like Villan says above (congrats on a lot of commonsense). Both sides have to listen to the other party but remember, please, if you are a full-time performer, craftsman or whatever your income, house, car whatever depends on the quality of your gigs and as an organiser I think you have a responsibility not to jeopardise that either.

All the best

Steve Ogden

PS at least a folk artist gets a fee, for the most part I have had to pay for the privilege of trading and that's when the quality of the organiser really kicks in - Folk Festival Craft organisers please note :)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:32 PM

Don't underestimate the hospitality bit. From the time the performer
comes into town until the time he or she leaves, they ought to feel
as if they're in a 5-star.

Now that means different things to different people, but when I've
hosted performers for a local folk club it's always been a nice
dinner (on me) at the local pub (bar and grill). Followed by
really nice guest-room accomodations with private bath. And up
early in the AM so they are awakened by the odor of a lavish
breakfast before getting on their way.

At Festivals, it means nice (and fun if possible) accomodations.
Like the days at Mystic when the Mystic Whaler was performer's
accomodations, at the back of the main concert site, with ample
ale snacks and all.

That and rides to and from public transport with reliable and
sympathetic people.

And hungry at 1AM? Well, no worries, the hosts will get you
to an all-night eatery.

Fees aside, it ought to be a great experience. And profitable.
But also fun.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:35 PM

Apologies Blowzabella, but I know Ian and I wouldn't say he was a flamer by any means. A very nice man in fact and I dare say you are a very nice "girl".

Lets get back to the original post from Guest Andy

>What do other club organisers feel about performers asking for a guaranteed flat fee or a percentage of door takings, always meaning 'whichever is the higher'<<

As an organiser I prefer a flat fee.

George, you are a a boy at heart :-) and may I say somebody who I have a lot of respect for (makker) :-)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

a small point but important..

If you run a club in a town you are 'holding' that town for folk music - because there probably isn't room for two clubs, so you're unlikely to have any competition. It's an honour and a responsibility. Like owning land. You need to think how you will leave it for future generations. So just doing what feels right to you and your members may not in fact be enough.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:06 PM

Heck, I still am - it's just not visible

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:05 PM

...and a very nice one too, I am sure!
Sorry Blowzabella.
I wish I could say that I am a boy.
I was though - once.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:02 PM

PS - George - I'm a girl .....

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:54 PM

As I am neither a folk club organiser or a professional musician, but understnad the problems both face, I feel that I can perfectly legitimately put the point of view of either across - and I will - if someone's post seems to trigger a response - as Ian's did. I did not have a go at him - or in any way comment on his ability as a performer. I just don't think he has a handle on what it is to be a professional musician, trying to make a living in a difficult genre. I would be equally likely to comment on a post by a pro musician who made comments about how folk club organisers don't work hard. Cos I knnow they do - but - you will notice that no professional musicians have done this.

Like many people who only see half of a job, would-be professional anythings only see the good half - or, in the case of being a professional musician - the good 10%. Many people think I have a job they would enjoy - I doubt if they would.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

>>How about everyone stop being so defensive and get together to figure out how we can all benefit?<<

I agree there Dave, but when you see some of the crap posted about organisers by certain people, thats the time to stand up and be counted.

It really is this simple.

I book a performer because I want them at my club. I don't book a performer because they want a gig a my club.

I look at what is on offer on the market and then decide if the performer suits the style of the club, and hopefully will enhance the prestige of the club. Will my audience want to see them. Do they even know who the performer is. At the end of the day, that is my judgement, but not before I have done a lot of homework on each performer. That means finding out off other people what they think of them, looking at their websites and reviews on them. Listening to their music.

One thing I never do is take their word for it. if necessary and if possible, I try to get to see them live.

Once I am happy that a performer is who i want, I then get in touch with them and chat about the club and its style and ask if it is possible for them to perform at the club and how much they would charge. If it is too much, i explain that and the reasons. Negotiation takes place and if at the end of the day, we are both happy, we do the booking. If it isn't possible, then no problem, shame, but time to move on and find somebody else.

Once booked, I try to do everything in my power to get as many people on seats and try to do everything possible to ensure the performer gets the best experience possible when visiting the club.

Once that is done, i don't think it has anything to do with anybody else.

I have to say that i can only praise all performers that have appeared at Faldingworth Live.

I also evaluate the night from audience and performer point of view and wherever possible try to make changes. Not always possible.

I just wish some of you would stop telling us organisers what to do, its got nowt to do with you, and whats more it doesn't help the professional whatsoever. It only inflames the situation.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:48 PM

Les, Dave, three and a half days ago, in my first post on this thread, I said: "...there is no need for antagonism between organiser and performer". So, to be told now "Be grateful all you performers and just think,you would do it as a choice coz it is in you anyway", is at least patronising. In other words, because I love what I am doing, and yes, I am lucky to have been given the chance and the support to do it (for which I have always been grateful and have said so many times), for those reasons I should then "be grateful" and shut up? roll over to be tickled? what?

I accept that GUEST,ian did not mean the message to have the overtones that put Blowzabella's back up. I am sure he is a good guy and would love to harmonise with him (ian, that is). But cut Blowzabella some slack too, he feels attacked - and reading the text above, I can see why.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: eddie1
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:47 PM

Applications for grants can be a minefield but most local councils have a "Grants Information Officer", part of whose job is to help you. There is a computer programme called "Grantfinder" which they can use to tell you what bodies you can apply to then they can help you with the application forms.
Maybe I'm just lucky. I live in Reading UK and our local grant information office has been very helpful.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:37 PM

The woes of being an organiser have also been well documented but I do it all the same. Why? Because I am a folk music fan, without talent enough to be a professional artist, but still want to do my bit!

Precisely the reason I did it too.........

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:35 PM

Guest Ian should apply his opinion to his own job, or the job of his friends. He will soon see how faulty it is. We all work to live and to make the best out of our work. Being a pro singer is no different to being a pro dentist or a pro newsagent. It pays the bills. if I do the job right the audience enjoys it. My enjoyment is nothing to do with it. My job is to give them a good night, not me. Job done, I've earned my wage.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM

Blowzabella. I think Guest Ian is only joining the 'pro organiser' lobby like you are putting the pro artist point. It is unfortunately these polarized opinions that are driving a wedge between artists and organisers. Neither is more important than the other and like I said before the people that realy matter are the audience. Artists and promotors alike should be working towards getting people into folk clubs. It is only that that will ensure the continued sucess of folk music and give a good working infrastructure for professional artists to earn a living wage.

A converse question to your last one could be "Such an un-attractive lifestyle - what's on earth is making you do it????" Rhetorical of course. The woes of being an organiser have also been well documented but I do it all the same. Why? Because I am a folk music fan, without talent enough to be a professional artist, but still want to do my bit!

How about everyone stop being so defensive and get together to figure out how we can all benefit?

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM

Blowzabella
Don't start having a go at Ian, or I will really get stuck in. He is a very nice bloke who has a very good voice.
He has just made a comment and I am sure he would like to be in a position where he could be a pro going round doing a job that he enjoys doing and that is singing.
As it is, he isn't professional, but that doesn't stop him fancying that.
Ian together with Rockhen are one of my resident performers that go out in the name of Helian Keys. They are very nice people and have supported me at Faldingworth Live. They always do a very nice floor spot and may I say, sometimes better than some of the supposed professional performers.

From everything that has been said in this thread, most professionals get the fee that they ask for, which may not be what they desire. However, it takes 2 to tango. If the organiser can't afford it, they don't get booked. if the performer doesn't get what they think is a reasonable fee, they don't take it.

One thing for sure in this day and age, nobody has the right to demand that they should be booked just because they are a professional singer. They earn that right. No organiser books a professional performer, unless they have earned that right. And may I add, nobody tells me as the organiser what price to charge at the door at my club, because they don't get booked, in that situation.

What Ian does in his private life has nowt to do with you.

Les Worrall
Faldingworth Live
http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:45 PM

"The desire to know where you are going to sleep after your dys work?"
Funny that one. They always give you the room for the night you play. I could use it the night before. Rest all day. Get cleaned up, set up. After the gig, I need to get on the road. (even if it is four in the morning)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:38 PM

PS Guest ian - what is stopping you from doing 'that job' of writing / performing full time? The crap money? The lack of marketing skills? The fact that there are loads of other people out there trying to make a living in a limited market? The fact that your family wouldn't be happy if you spent so much time away from home? The desire to know where you are going to sleep after your dys work? Perhaps you have health problems and being self-employed would mean that you wouldn't qualify for benefits if off work - you would just be without income.

Such an attractive lifestyle - what's on earth is stopping you????

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM

Dear Guest ian - I was tempted to reply to you, but I think I will leave it to the countess - she will do so much better than me. Try driving a few hundred miles or so in their situation (it won't take long - it is well known that professional musicians spend more time driving than performing) and then see how grateful you are.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:17 PM

"May i just say i think all the organisers do a fantastic job and we the support artists and audience thank them very much" .....
Goes for me too. (except i'd go upper case on the "i"s )

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:30 PM

May i just say i think all the organisers do a fantastic job and we the support artists and audience thank them very much.Is just a pity some places are not supported as they should be around the country.Many reasons i guess for main acts wanting more than club can afford.It boils down to their commitment to perform in a job they are lucky to do full time.The commitment of the oganisers who like to give and recieve to and from the acts.Also the commitment of the audience who turn out rain,hail or snow.
Give me and others the chance to do that job full time of performing/writing and they would jump at it.Be grateful all you performers and just think,you would do it as a choice coz it is in you anyway.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:28 AM

Les, there is no doubt about it, it is a thankless task, even to the dedicated.

As for Ruth - bloody typical of a small town farm girl....cheap chablis.
Go for champagne - or at least cava.

Dave
Wine writer on Spanish wines and second hand folk book supplier to the itinerant folk singer and others.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:18 AM

I tried to get funding for my club to put on performers to educate the community and hopefully to convert non folkies.

I spent a lot of time building up the info, checking and agreeing fees with performers if I got the grant.

All was going well until I was advised to run my proposals through the local council art/music department.

They said that I needed to support other areas such as putting on a couple of concerts for local schools. (I had already included workshops etc for schools). However this was to get involved with a couple of projects working with the people that were running those projects.

Being at that time the jack of all trades becuase I was the only person running the club in its entirety (without a committee, but classed as an organiser), I just buckled.

I was only just coping with running the folk club, so taking on other committments was just not on, so I had to regretfully shelve it.

The awards council before that were very enthusiastic about it and couldn't see much wrong with my original ideas.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:05 AM

Well, I seem to be applying for funding in my leisure time at the moment - so it's just as well I enjoy it!

Re the Massey...I'm thinking Heritage Lottery. A decent application and another bottle of cheap chablis and Deyyyyyvid'll be furtling in my pooks of hay in no time...

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:58 AM

So true Ruth. I think using such money to try and build up an audience who become regulars, rather than constantly chasing, ie as capital expenditure if you like rather than revenue.

And you consider applying for funding as a leisure activity? No wonder Sam the Cowman proved such an attraction. Go get a grant for the Massey - there must be one available somewhere............think how much Daaayyyyyyyyvid would love you.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:22 AM

All good advice, Dave. But the problems for an existing folk club applying for funding are obvious.

Firstly, the Arts Council won't fund you to do what you already do. So you'd have to demonstrate that the money is funding "new activity" on some level. This can be interpreted creatively, of course, but it means that a folk club can't simply ask for money to fund what already does.

Secondly, this sort of funding is usually for a fixed period. Once it finishes, you have to figure out how you're going to replace it. So you're constantly chasing new sources of funding.

Thirdly, there is the issue I've mentioned previously of evaluation. More work for the applicant, but it has to be done if the money is going to be released - the process doesn't finish when you get the money.

As has been pointed out, the poeple who run folk clubs are usually doing it in their spare time and have lots of other commitments. Chasing funding is time-consuming and can be stressful, and not everyone considers it a leisure activity (like I do).

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:59 AM

As far as grant applications - many things are possible.

I know of a sword dance team who got a grant for kit of £10,000. They used the expertise of a retired local government officer to make the application. Ask around - you might find a retired local government officer (or someone with that sort of expertise) in your audience.

Yorkshire Garland group got £25,000+ for setting up the Yorkshire Archive. But be quick. Most grant money from the lottery (which is where all this came from) will go to the Olympics.

Eddie Upton of Folk South-West used to have a brochure to show how to apply for grants and what grants were available. I don't know if he has up-dated this but it might be worth asking.

There will be a regional Arts Council and possibly a Folk Arts Network near to you.

Get them to help. That is what they are there for.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:41 AM

There is the National Rural Touring Forum
They cover pretty much the whole country, I think - there is a separate, slightly different scheme for Wales. Often have a number of folky acts included.

The way it tends to work - the regional administrator complies a 'menu' for the season from acts she has selected, from all those who have approached the scheme. The local promoters then select who / what etc they want to put on. Usually village hall gigs with lovely people, who do their best to make everyone have a good time - including the band.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:12 PM

Any ideas to bring music to the locals rather than the locals traveling long distances is fine by me.i think most local areas do enough to promote and teach music in general.There are loads of us out there willing to pass on our skills and help raise the standards of local music.If any scheme helps promote good acts visiting or creating teaching then i am with them.Bit pie in the sky,but not beyond reality.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:39 PM

I don't think that 'most of them wouldn't want to', Ruth. I just think that most organisers have a full time job, quite often a family and many other commitments as well as running the folk club. It is a question of priorities. I am quite lucky in that I am a, occasionaly, a good time manager. In those more lucid moments, when I am not running round like a blue arsed fly with all the above mentioned responsibilities, I can get quite a lot done. I don't find forms of any sort particularly daunting and even the most officious staff rarely suceed in putting me off! Maybe I could get a well paid job as a folk club fundraiser? Any offers? :-)

Cheers

D.