Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:55 PM

I'm sorry you got complaints after Tony and Una took over your radio programme. I will contact them and ask them to apologise to you and your listeners of true discernment - bearers of the true tradition all, I imagine.

Mafias all work the same dave. its called self interest.

If anyone isn't making a full time living out of music - very frankly its because they can't.

Its a craft. takes time to learn it, dedication. vows of poverty - or at least indifference to worldly fortune.

Run a university course saying that theres another way - and you're lying and misleading young folk.

'What you are saying is that what they do voluntarily is refuse to choose people who (according to you) know how to put a song over, have great stage presence and can sing and play. Instead they choose (again according to you) a bunch of lesser talented people.'


Yup thats what i'm saying.

'They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.'

Well I think access to public funds has a certain amount to do with it.

I will inform Tony and Una immediately about their stewardship of your programme causing weeks of complaints. I never realised you had that many listeners. I'm surprised you entrusted them to such unworthy characters. clearly - you must avoid taking risks like that in the future.

Just checked - Tony and Una are on tour - anyway its Una's birthday today so I won't phone them tonight and worry them with this attack upon them. I've sent the text of your comments in an e-mail, and i guess - Tony being very polite, will be in contact to apologise if that seems appropriate to him.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

Tom,
Strangely enough and unlike many I know I'm not actually an Unthanks basher. I quite like some of their stuff, e.g., the song George wrote that they do very well. I enjoyed their TV dancing programmes which were very well crafted IMO.

What bothers me is that again IMO they are no better or worse than a host of other young bands coming up, or older bands for that matter.
Yes, Adrian has done a marvellous job and works very hard.

As you say whether they do trad or their own stuff is immaterial.

Sorry, Dave, but I'm with Alan and Shimrod.

The Folk Awards?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

Well, long as we got THAT straight.

I received your schedule for the upcoming months, Tom, and I wish I could get to England to see and hear you in person. Knock `em out, buddy.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM

LOL - it's an old gunfighter's trick.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:21 PM

``Yes, a few duds (like me, perhaps) manage to fool some of the people some of the time``

I take serious issue with you on that remark, Tom, because it`s bullshit. You want to quit the game that`s one thing, but do NOT put yourself down on the way out the door.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

Hahahahah Bonzo, that just sums it all up. End of story. Hahahhah. Lovely.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

I don't know if the Unthanks have done Breakfast TV but I'll guess they have

One of them certainly has - she got a gig I ought to have had! Not that I am resentful, I wouldn't want you to think that!! :-)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM

This is to Al, mainly.

There is no direct correlation between talent and success - there never has been in any field, musical or otherwise.

It's about having sufficient talent to deliver something people will value, and then being in the right place at the right time.

Yes, you can manoeuvre yourself into somewhere you think might be the right place at the right time, and that's absolutely part of the deal - but it doesn't guarantee success - even if you win the lottery and spend it all advertising in Mojo.

You have to be good enough in the first place, AND in the final analysis. You can fluke a break as I did when a third party sent Waterman our demo and he loved it, but if you can't follow that up (my band imploded with one guy leaving to be a careers officer - no, really he did - one overdose, and one hospitalised with that thing Dennis Potter had from the stress) the thing soon fizzles out.

I know scores of musicians in many fields who are 'better' than others more 'successful.' Some of the 'successful' ones have suffered badly, some of the 'better' ones are much happier. There is no justice - but if there was, who would decide the merits of either or each? It's impossible.

Some great players are useless at organising themselves and the breaks that do come along slip through their fingers. Some great organisers are barely good enough players but get away with it because they know know how to sharp the cards (like me, perhaps).

But the bottom line is this:

All Alan's 'folkerati' mentioned in this thread ARE good enough. They HAVE paid their dues. (Arts centre gigs are NOT cushy - they can be exceeding grim and hard work and next time I see you I'll explain why). They HAVE done their best to put themselves in the right place at the right time - often at considerable personal and financial cost. And they HAVE made the best of the breaks that did come their way, which usually means taking big risks and a hell of a lot of hard work. And they're NOT making a fortune - minimum wage or slightly better, once you even it all out.

But this is what matters: They've put themselves in the firing line of mainstream public opinion - and have emerged respected and admired by large numbers of people - many of whom are no saps, musically or otherwise (and many are extremely knowledgeable - not that that's a prerequisite for an opinion)

No-one said we had an equal opportunities scheme in the folk world, and we don't (outside of floor singing in some clubs, perhaps). But we do have a meritocracy. Yes, a few duds (like me, perhaps) manage to fool some of the people some of the time, but you don't get on Later doing that.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

On reading this thread, and the other Unthanks thread, I am getting the impression that, in some circles, it is considered bad form to express negative opinions on any artist - especially if that artist has achieved any sort of success.

Let's get one thing straight if I say that I don't particularly like the Unthanks it's not because I "begrudge" their success! To make that inference is so stupid, childish and immature it takes my breath away! The initiator of this thread should grow up.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM

I don't begrudge them success, I just don't like the noise they make.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

Depends what you mean by popular culture FD. I don't know if the Unthanks have done Breakfast TV but I'll guess they have. They've certainly done Woman's Hour and pop music radio. That's on the big radar.

Some things just need more exposure and a decent hook to hang the idea on, Buenavista Social Club's musicians spring to mind or the Oh Brother Where Art Thou sound track rehabilitating Old Timey in the popular consciousness. I don't believe there's anything antipathetic about folk music and popularity, if it entered the public consciousness via a film sound track or a brilliant documentary it would do well. It's just not very well sold as a product, so it occupies the area of good taste and discernment rather than instant recognition.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:53 PM

Not at all - I was trying to say they hadn't crossed over into (more) popular culture and that they had achieved some success.

I suspect we are probably in agreement.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

You've lost me folkiedave. Are you saying those artists I listed don't have some immediate appeal?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

Well you listed artists who have hardly done that!!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman - PM
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

The idea that anyone would go into folk music because it pays is bizarre, even insane. Traditional music was always 'of the people'; it needed nor desired marketing, had no agents or producers - anyone can stand up and sing a folk song.

To find a market that pays requires the performer to cross-over into popular culture. Usually that means they have sex appeal, or some other instant claim on attention, like a thoroughly remarkable voice. Marketing alone will not guarantee commercial success, nor will competence, even genius on an instrument (though it all helps). If you want to pay the bills, folk music is the last medium I'd choose to do it, and if you achieved it folkies would abandon you virtually to a man or woman.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM

I dunno des - there seems to be domestic irish fame and the ones that go international - they don't all go international - despite the numerous irish communities round the world.

i was always amazed Johnny MacEvoy didn't go global. I still love his stuff. quite a lot of Irish acts seem anchored on the ould sod.

i had a soft spot for the JCB song man.

i always think Irish people have their folk stuff better integrated than we do.

Even a bloke like Daniel O'Donnel does some folk material - Cliff richard doesn't have that same flexiblity - despite having a similar sort of niche in the market (boy singer/no dick, as Father ted wittily remarked.)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM

"And @ Ron Olesko - I am "one of the folk revival crowd" I first got interested in this music around 1961. I am lucky I have a radio show where I can champion the young musicians. Tomorrow's show will have a fantastic duo called Walsh and Pound. Take a listen to the podcast. Second half. Details on Mudcat under "Thank Goodness It's Folk". "

That is wonderful news Folkiedave! That is EXACTLY what we need more of!

Perhaps this entire thread was based on a false pretense. Perhaps Nick's original premise, and my own thoughts, are based on individual experiences and DO not represent the overall feeling. I hope that is the case, as it would certainly make me feel good to be wrong!

Folk music needs open arms and open ears.   I think we are lucky on this side of the Atlantic, I experience more acceptance of both the trad and contemporary. Support of young performers is also highly encouraged in these parts!    The future does look bright!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

That'd be the "Dave" that gave up his radio show to a couple of your mates two years ago and told them they could pick and choose the music to their heart's content.

I am still waiting for their thank you letter. But don't worry the complaints slowed to a trickle after a month or so.

Let's just assume there is such a thing as a folk mafia for a moment.

One thing is for certain they are not making a living at it because all the organisers I know have other jobs. Apart from a couple of larger folk festivals people give up their free time to run festivals, and folk clubs. There is no fortune to be made that's for sure.

What you are saying is that what they do voluntarily is refuse to choose people who (according to you) know how to put a song over, have great stage presence and can sing and play. Instead they choose (again according to you) a bunch of lesser talented people.

They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.

And if that isn't what you are saying - precisely how does this "folk establishment" (or as someone else called it "Folk Family Mafia") work?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

one that always comes to mind is an outfit called Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again.

Basically they became the Oysterband eventually.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:40 PM

Oh Dave ......I despair of you!

We had the same crap a few years ago when I was driven off Mudcat by a storm of abuse and your insistence that I provide name and packdrill.

No I'm not going to give offence to people whoa as you say work hard and many of whom are my personal fioends.

But I DO know, and they know that they live a whole lot easier than artists who have work out strategies and buy equipment that will 'eat' a noisy indifferemt room - usually for half the fee - and without the all the cushy audiences British council tours and god knows how many other perks that go with being 'in with the establisment. how much more difficult to be doing all those miles for nothing but a few unpaid minutes on a minor stage, in the vain hope of consiglieri of the folk mafia giving you the time of day.

Every bugger knows its going on, just give it a rest and put a bloody sock in it. Its bad enough that what is happening is happening and have it happening in front of your eyes for forty years without being told that I'm seeing things.

I'm not seeing things and sucking up to the very small fish inthe folk music pool will ultimately buy you nothing.

as Bob Dylan said

the cops don't need you and man, they expect the same....

In the end we all get what we deserve. they get to produce to a whole slew of unmemorable crap music, and the lucky ones of us get to be one hit wonders.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:16 PM

Just for Desi C's benefit, Fiddlers Dram, who were 'barely mentioned or heard of again' morphed into the Oysterband, who, I believe, are still enjoying some success!

and to add my thoughts on the original question, the Unthanks don't float my boat, as the saying goes, but if others enjoy them, they must be doing something right. I don't think it is a question of 'begrudging success' more that we all know other artists who we would consider better performers and more worthy of the exposure. Don't see the aforementioned Oysterband on national TV for instance. At risk of taking the debate of at a tangent, it seems to me that it is the 'bright young things' that get the national media attention, maybe that's why you don't see the Oysterband, too old in their 50's

John

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

"Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again."

Might be because they broke up and turned into the Oyster Band.

But much more likely it was that old folk snobbery again.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

I am lucky I count a number of artists amongst my acquaintances. I watch them struggling to make a living - virtually all of them - by travelling up and down the motorways of the UK and playing for very little at Arts Centres and folk clubs.

Most "cushy" Arts Centre gigs pay the usual percentages against a guarantee that they always did. So do most folk clubs. I am not sure how that makes them cushy and what might look like a prestigious tour around arts centres might just be a borrowing to finance a series of gigs based on someone's mortgage.

And @ Ron Olesko - I am "one of the folk revival crowd" I first got interested in this music around 1961. I am lucky I have a radio show where I can champion the young musicians. Tomorrow's show will have a fantastic duo called Walsh and Pound. Take a listen to the podcast. Second half. Details on Mudcat under "Thank Goodness It's Folk".

One of the "young musicians" said to me recently the thing they liked about folk music was that you could talk to the older musicians and they listened to what young people said and the young people were treated as equals. There is a ton of young talented and highly skilled musicians playing this music. All making their own way. In their own way.

Since Lizzie believes in the existence of a Folk Family Mafia, would you like to perhaps say who is in it?

Or indeed Al, who do you reckon is in it?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Indeed it's long been something of a mystery of British Folk Music, that those who gain 'fame' seem to be resented or seen as no longer true to the Folk tradition. Numerous examples, some you've mentioned, one that always comes to mind is an outfit called Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again.

It does seem to be almost peculiar to the British scene too. Back home in Ireland trad acts that go from locally popular to international fame, Dubliners, Christy Moore ,and Co, become revered and very much placed on a pedestol and honoured in all sorts of ways. Here? They're treated almost like traitors. Is it jealousy, resentment, snobbery? or just the British way?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Having said all that. i don't begrudge anyone anything. I just wish there was a fairer way of going on.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM

Brilliant Alan, brilliant

L in C#

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

Hey Tom - If you were to start singing spice girl covers I may even listen. But give us plenty of warning before taking your kit off for the Mirror...

:-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM

I think its the inequality of it that bugs a lot of us.

So many of the folkerati never seem to have to pay their dues. They get the cushy arts centre gigs, the fawning folk club audiences, kiss arse reviews - never having learned how to work an audience or produce a memorable piece of music - never mind having no clue how to present it and introduce it.

even if their albums are complete shite - they get more column inches in froots et al. explaining and forgiving them than working jobbing musicians get for four star albums containing their life's work.

Its hard to explain the resentment if you haven't seen your friends live and die in obscurity - often having spent their lives giving spellbinding performances on the minor stages of folk festivals and in tiny clubs.

Then those with the whip hand wonder why no one is listening to their bloody awful radio nd tv programmes, and why theres no general support for folk music. Five minutes is usually enough for the a folkmusic neutral with his finger on the remote control.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

caitlin rua - Of course you can have an opinion - positive or negative - and why shouldn't you?

The point is, to just express it on a board like Mudcat is neither here nor there. What does it prove? It tells us that you don't like x - no more nor less.

So, if I simply post: "I don't like Leonard Cohen" - it's a meaningless statement.

Whereas, a reasoned appraisal of Leonard Cohen, giving some sort of perpective, is a different kettle of fish.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

Are you allowed to just not like someone's musical output, without being accused of "begrudging" something or other?

The Unthanks seem like very nice, sincere people. But what they do doesn't impress me. I don't resent their success, I'm not jealous or any other neurotic thing, they're just not my cup of tea. Is it permissible to merely express a negative opinion, based on the work the artists produce (not their Selves) without getting called names and cod-psychoanalised by a bunch of people who don't know me?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM

They lost something when Belinda O'Hooley's acid drop comments and parlour piano went IMHO, but they're still a very strong act. Anyone who describes Rachel Unthank as a weak singer needs to clean their ears out. The edge they had in their early stuff has been replaced by some blissed out string production, and that's an honest opinion.

I would be good to hear future albums given a rawer, less obviously commercial sound.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

Exactly! And that's not saying anything bad about him is it really?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:59 AM

So..... is he crap or is he brilliant?

Both - depending on your outlook and your musical taste.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

Ok, How many people do you know that don't like Leonard Cohen? 90% of my friends will tell you he's crap. Well! I love listening to him, I could listen to him all day. I actually think he's brilliant. I have purchased every album he's made.

Here's a list of musicians that have used "Bird on a Wire" one of Leonards songs on their albums:

Joe Cocker on Joe Cocker! (1969) and the live album Mad Dogs & Englishmen (1970)
Dave Van Ronk on Van Ronk (1971)
Tim Hardin on the album Bird on a Wire (1971)
Pearls Before Swine on the album Beautiful Lies You Could Live In (1971)
Rita Coolidge on the album The Lady's Not for Sale (1972)
Fairport Convention on the album Heyday: the BBC Radio Sessions, 1968–1969 (1987)
Jennifer Warnes on the tribute album Famous Blue Raincoat (1987)
Tom Cochrane and Red Rider on The Symphony Sessions (1989)
The Neville Brothers on the album Brother's Keeper (1990), also included in the movie by the same name
The Lilac Time on the tribute album I'm Your Fan (1991)
The Bobs on the album Cover the Songs of … (1994), in a skate-punk style
Johnny Cash on the album American Recordings (1994), and also live with orchestra (released on the 2003 compilation Unearthed)
Willie Nelson on the tribute album Tower of Song (1995)
Stina Nordenstam on the album People Are Strange (1998)
k.d. lang on the album Hymns of the 49th Parallel (2004)
autorickshaw on the album So the Journey Goes (2007)
Perla Batalla on the album Bird on the Wire: the Songs of Leonard Cohen (2005)
Eva Dahlgren on the tribute album Cohen – the Scandinavian Report (2009)
Joe Bonamassa on the album Black Rock (2010)
Kiko Veneno on the album Dice la Gente (2010), adapted to spanish
Katey Segal on the television program Sons of Anarchy in Season 3 Episode 4 (2011)

So..... is he crap or is he brilliant? Or am I just missing the point?

I can just see Leonard now with a big smile on his face.....

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM

Heaping excessive praise on artists one happens to like – or excessive condemnation on those one happens to dislike – is just self-congratulation by indirect means. The script goes like this:

"How perceptive I must be to like a performer that few others appreciate, and many have never heard of. How high my critical standards must be if I can detect the intrinsic shallowness of somebody who is idolised by millions."

Of course, the script changes abruptly whenever artists who were once the focus of an underground cult suddenly achieve mass popularity. Now it goes like this:

"Oh yes, I liked them back in the early days, but I'm disgusted by the glossy trash they churn out now."

Most of us used to play this game with our schoolfellows – it's probably a necessary part of the growing up process. But unfortunately, some people find it hard to let go.

Lazy people who want to appear culturally sophisticated can use it to avoid the effort of looking, listening and thinking.   Unimaginative journalists can fall back on it to fill their quota of column inches or airtime minutes. And unsuccessful performers (pro or amateur) can indulge in it to console themselves.

As Dorothy Parker once said about another activity, it's a way of killing time for those who prefer it dead. This particular game never gets you anywhere worth going.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM

Quite a "mixed bag" there but I actually like most of these named you've mentioned.

I also like Jacques Brel too and I've always been a great Elvis Costello fan. So, there!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:45 AM

Tom
Thanks for the mention, and you are absolutely right. I worked with Alison Howe (Prod "Later") at Radio 1. A very clear thinking person, with great ideas, and whenever I watch Jools' show, I'm just grateful that it's there. I've also been lucky enough to work on JH's radio show recorded at Helicon Mountain. Guest's included (to name two) Kirsty MacColl and George Melly!   And lots of others.
Out of interest, just looking at my hard drive, here is a partial list of people I've recorded, (All of which I would regard as folk singers!)
Afro Celts, Altan, Ann Peebles, Beth Orton, Bill Jones, Blind Boys of Alabama, 2 Duos Quartet, Chris Wood, CBS, Cunningham/McCusker, Del McCrory, Dembo Konte, Kausu Kuyate, Dick Dale, Dick Gaughan, Hansome Family, Hayes and Cahill, Ivor Cutler, .....etc. and I'm only halfway through the alphabet!
The list is not there for boasting purposes, It's just to say that, the BBC has always provided a broad range of music. Particularly over the last 15 years or so.
So, to criticise one bands performance on one TV show, just because "I don't like it, so it must be crap" is, not only insulting to the artists concerned, but to the entire production team as well.
Go on then....You do it!
PS. I'll just add, Warren Zevon, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, LWIII, Kelly Joe Phelps, Kevin Coyne, Mahotella Queens, Welch/Rawlins, Wreckless Eric, Rokia Traore, Robin Hitchcock, Martin Simpson, Taj Mahal/Toumani Djiabate.....(Thats enough names Ed!)
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:34 AM

Well said Tom, all good stuff.

Here's a group I and many others much enyoyed at last years Shrewsbury Festival:

Calan

If you like 'em tell others. If you don't - tell us who you do like or better still go to a folk club or session and sing a song or play a tune.

Cheers
L in C#

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:30 AM

Me too Will. One minute Pete Waterman was whispering in my ear. The next......

It baffles me utterly when this sort of thing happens.

First, why should seeking to make a living in the folk music arena be seen by anyone as a sell out? Composers and songwriters through the ages have always borrowed from and added to the 'working class / un-educated' (or whatever definition you prefer) traditional canon. The Unthanks don't exclusively sing trad material, and even if they did it would not be an issue. No crime there.

And there have always been professional and semi-professional musicians in every genre at every level in every town and village in the world. Always. No crime there either.

All of us who have tried to make a go of it have done so because if you can hit on a workable formula for both your music and your lifestyle, which is financially viable, it's a wonderful way to live. Yes you need to be sure it's worth the risk when you abandon the day job - but you base that decision on feedback from your reviewers, audiences, mentors - and sales. If it doesn't work you slip back from view (as I did). But if it does you rise gently under the Peter Principle - and if you're lucky and good enough you make it to Later. No crime there.

The producers of Later have thousands of brilliant acts to choose from. There is no payola or underhand exchange here. They book acts from a 'folk' background because they are good, because they are popular, and because they know they will work well on the programme. No crime there.

No-one who has ever taken as little as a pint for singing a song should accuse anyone of selling out. (Hell, if they wanted to and enjoyed singing Spice Girl covers and could get bookings for doing so that wouldn't be selling out either).

All successful musicians have found themselves at various points in their careers going down what turns out to be a dead end. Wrong band, wrong material, wrong approach, bad timing - many a slip is inevitable. The good ones pick themselves up, learn from the experience and try again with a slightly different approach. The Unthanks have done exactly this, and they've found a winning formula. And it's not a cheap one either. Singing unaccompanied and keeping all the fee for themselves would buy them a lot more 'for their souls.'

They sounded great the other night - as they usually do. I'll stick with my watercolour in a gilt frame analogy: Accentuating the deliberate simplicity of the singing with the sparse brightness of the accompaniment (try listening again with the Turner image in mind - it might make more sense then) works a treat. People coming from a Jacques Brel (in fact a lot of French popular music), or an Elvis Costello-ish background - (and LOT of people do), get it at once - hence their success.

They fitted perfectly into the show - the whole point of which is juxtaposition, contrast and discovery.

To quote Andy Kershaw quoting John Walters (his and Peel's - and Ralph's - producer). "Our job is not to give people what they want. It's to give people what they din't KNOW they wanted." I think Jool's team would subscribe to that too.

A lot of people already knew they wanted the Unthanks. But now a LOT more people do.

No crime there either.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:13 AM

Xlnt Will! As for us old gits resenting young people - my own feeling is nothing less than delight that so many talented, hard working, imaginative, creative young people are doing so many exciting things to old songs.

If people don't like somebody or other go and find somebody they do like and tell us so we can all enjoy more old songs and tunes.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:34 AM

I stood at the crossroads, many many years ago, and waited eagerly - guitar in hand - for the Devil to bring me fame and fortune in exchange for my immortal soul.

I got knocked down by a no. 32 bus.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:12 AM

I find the term "selling ones soul" slightly laughable when referring to UK folkies! Name me one UK artist who is earning more than the minimum wage? If, indeed all these people are selling their souls, they're not getting a very good price for them, are they!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

I think it is a generational thing.   The "folk revival" crowd developed their taste in music and created their own styles when older generations were siding up to pop music, jazz and other more commercially accessible forms.    Now that the folk revival crowd are entering their latter years, they seem to have the same sort of resentment for younger generations who are embracing music in their own style.    Perhaps it is a jealousy of realizing that their own rebellious youth is a distant memory and by looking down their nose at younger styles, they somehow recapture their own youthful arrogance.   Too bad it is at the expense of hearing some unique and exciting music. The cowebs are shaking off revealing a brillance once again. Perhaps if it is put down it will go away and they can embrace their memories again.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM

I've always sensed a huge sense of Begrudginess in the English folk world to those who become successful....*unless* they are part of the Folk Family Mafia, in which case it's considered perfectly perfect for them to appear on any programme whatsoever. Hmmmmm.....

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

Agreed, Tom. As I said, not my cup of tea but I can certainly appreciate their talent. If, however, they were to start doing Spice Girl covers and getting their kit off for 'Hello' magazine it would be a different bucket of whelks! They would still not be to everyone's tastes and 'sell out' would then be appropriate. As it happens I find it unlikely. Unless they fancy coming round for a photo shoot... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM

"sell their souls" ?

Steve I'm genuinely shocked by your attitude mate.

That's not selling your soul, that's doing everything you can to develop and polish your birth talent to make the best music you possibly can that you can be proud of and that (some) other people will love. In other words what every artist (and collector or interpreter) from any genre has always done.

Selling your soul is compromising your beliefs and values for the sake of financial gain. I can assure you Rachel and Becky are doing nothing of the sort. They have taken something they love doing (and have grown extremely good at), which is singing dark and interesting songs, simply and effectively - using deliberate understatement (both for effect and because it suits their voices) employing fully traditionally-informed vocal styling, and then, with Adrian's help, achieving a real frisson by setting that pale watercolour into an expansive but still understated frame of moulded gold - like a watercolour by Turner.

People like them because they think it's a simply brilliant thing to do, and to many it's starkly beautiful. Not everyone agrees - and that's fine too.

Is it anything to do with folk? Who cares? Do they expect everyone to like it? Certainly not. Is it selling out? Well if it is then so is everything you or I have ever done, mate.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

I admire those who sell their souls to the publicity machine. That takes some bollocks, or whatever the female equivalent is.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 02:42 PM

I'm not entirely sure your premise is true, Nick. Not saying you are wrong but my belief is that anyone in the limelight will receive a healthy dollop of criticism. Now, had the Unthanks etc. stayed in the relatively obscure world of folk not many people would have heard of them and therefore it would stand to reason that the number of critics would be lower. Once you start to hit the big time then your audience is far wider and the number of critics grows proportionately.

Take the Unthanks as an example - I can't say that I paricularly like them. Nothing wrong with their music, just not my cup of tea. Had they have stuck to the folk clubs of the North East I may never had heard of them so would never had said I don't particularly like them. I am, I believe, pretty fair and will not criticise any artist any more than that. But for every one of me there are 10 who, rather than say they do not like it, will say it is crap.

Nothing, therefore, to do with jelously or any such. Simply the fact that the higher your profile goes, the more people will take a pot shot. And take no notice whatsoever of anyome saying it is an English trait. Us English are naturaly more critical because our standards are far higher than those in the colonies... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: CupOfTea
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

There is a British thing though about resenting success

Abdul, I disagree - or perhaps it's an American-ingrained-from-our-colonial-past thing, but I hear folks make the same kind of begrudging commentary on what's popular in the folk world as viewed here. I may be guilty of some of it m'self, yet what I tend to grump about is the success of performers who are NOT to my taste over what I perceive as more worthy performers.

In my case, it's a taste and critique version of sour grapes. It's frustration. "Cute thing who looks good in miniskirt" playing her songs getting more airplay than "Middle aged woman who has substance, a great repertoire, and really great guitar chops" irks me. When I complain it can sound like I'm just slagging off on the young thing. There's only so much airtime/audience/dollars to spend on tickets to go around & every time I have to hear some breathy voice girlchild I'm aware I'm not hearing Odetta or Deb Cowan or Cindy Mangsen, or a plethora of performers I respect. Does that perhaps answer some of the "why" in begrudging success?

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

I forgot to say I thought they came across a lot better in the BBC programme about clogging which they did.
JohnB