What Good Is Mudcat?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 04:32 AM

Aye - I understand that Greg, but would what I describe not be a fairer system? That way a potential presidential candidate would have to make promises to the majority of the population rather than just to those who have more sway. I know the population is huge but, as I said, surely modern technology can cope with that?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 05:17 PM

"Of course, we do not leave our elections to a "small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass" who "possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations." The electors are simply party hacks who are supposed to automatically vote for the candidate who won the election in the state. (Sometimes they do not do so. One elector in Washington state announced that he would not vote for Hillary Clinton if she won the State, which she did). So if the original reason for the system no longer exists, why have we maintained it?

The reason lies in the evils of our federal system. Under the electoral college structure, smaller states have enormous political leverage. Wyoming has a population of 584,153 and has three electoral votes, which means that each Wyoming elector represents 194,717 voters. California has a population of 38,800,000 and has 55 electoral votes so each elector represents 705,454 voters. So each vote in Wyoming is worth 3.6 times more than each vote in California. Other smaller states such as Rhode Island, Montana, North and South Dakota, Nebraska and Idaho also have exalted political power.

In addition, the so-called swing states get all the attention. Candidates focus on Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia and North Carolina and make many promises to voters in those states which they are obliged to honor when the election is over. Given the importance of Iowa in the nomination process, every candidate makes promises about ethanol subsidies important to the farmers in that State but not to the rest of the population. The other 40 states get little attention or promises. If the election was based only on popular vote, then the candidates would go where the votes are, California, New York, Texas and Illinois and the swing states would have less importance But there are 29 states with less than ten electoral votes whose influence in a presidential election would be greatly diminished. Why would they agree to a Constitutional amendment that would reduce their power in the political system?"

From the NYT

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 02:38 PM

Unfortunately, no Dave.

The "Electoral College"- established as an anti-democratic sop to keep the rabble in its place - is still plaguing the U.S. two centuries plus after the fact.

Thos. Jefferson notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 01:58 PM

Probably a daft question but seeing as it is one country voting for one person and given that modern technology can cumulate all the votes instantly, could there not just be an overall USA vote for the president? Genuinely interested.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM

The idea behind the electoral college in the first place was to counter and prevent "localism

Try again, T- the purpose of the Electoral College was to counteract the influence of "the mob" in favor of the aristocrats.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 11:39 AM

The idea behind the electoral college in the first place was to counter and prevent "localism" i.e. one state dominating all others.

Get rid of the electoral college and eight states will then control the entire USA, you'd have the tail wagging the dog.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:30 AM

Clearly only a small majority

True - ca. 3 million votes - but a majority nonetheless.

RE: the other, thank the monarchist Alex. Hamilton.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:18 AM

The majority of U.S, voters and citizens know the inoperable cancer in the White House for what he is.
Clearly only a small majority, and not enough to overcome the failings of the 'electoral college' system.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:17 PM

what people outside the US must think of any and all US citizens at this moment

No, not any and all - just the ignorant morons that support Trump and his Cabinet of Deplorables.

The majority of U.S, voters and citizens know the inoperable cancer in the White House for what he is.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 06:06 PM

I do cringe to think what people outside the US must think of any and all US citizens at this moment, seeing us through the filter of our first executive and governmental branches.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 03:32 AM

You're absolutely right akenaton. Some things just aren't important enough to tub-thump about. Others are vitally important and need our attention.
There's a thread on here at the moment about grief, and it's clear that some of our Mudcat members are suffering loss and great sadness. It's lovely to read the support and sympathy offered to them.

My husband was brought up to regard gay people as spawn of the Devil. They hide their sexuality in W Africa because they'd literally be severely beaten with heavy sticks, kicked and spat on in the street. No-one there tolerates gays. But I've been working on him for many years about this. He can see that here, gays are part of our society, and are individuals in their own right (and why ever not?). There are gay musicians, gay businessmen/women, gay doctors and so on. He's met a few, and they have all been very kind to him. A holiday barn cleaner gave him a whole pile of precious clean sheets when he was low on stock; a cosmetics adviser in a store found lots of free samples for him to take home for his sisters and mum just before he went back for a visit. He's begun to see through his awful prejudice and to look at the person, not the sexuality. I had tears in my eyes when he actually hugged the cosmetics chap in gratitude. Job done!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 03:08 AM

That's what it's all about Sen, you must have a lovely and strong relationship......well said indeed.

Some things are really important in life, others are simply posturing.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:55 PM

I think having travelled to many places around the world and experienced different cultures and habits helps one to take the wider, more tolerant view.

The thing I really like about Mudcat is the variety of nationalities and viewpoints. Skarpi from Iceland and Sandra from Sydney, Americans, Canadians, Scots, Irish and many other folk make it a great mix.

Funnily enough, W.Africans have a lot of prejudices about us in the West. The francophones call us 'Toubabou' ('whiteys') They imagine we're all daft, eat food constantly especially McDonald's, dress indecently and have no sense of family. Even my husband says "You're not too bad, for a Toubabou!"
I'm afraid I grin and reply, "You're not too bad yourself, for a n*****!"

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:40 PM

I find myself subconsciously making generalisations like this, and try very hard to stop doing it.

Well done Eliza. If only more would so the same instead of trying to justify old prejudices. I have said before and openly admit that it is a struggle at times. I was brought up in a world where prejudice was rife and, as you say, it is hard not to generalise. But the more we try the more we begin to accept those cultural differences and the more we realise that there is good and bad in every culture. We are all the same under the skin and even if I have to keep reminding myself and other people of that until the day I die, it is worth remembering.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:34 PM

I was going to say that Mudcat is a really good place to discuss or find out stuff about folk songs (like I've been doing today whilst doing some research on whaling). It's actually very good for that - at least it used to be - and the precious archive is still here.

Judging by the comments on this thread I seem (as a rare venturer below the line) to have missed the point entirely!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:18 PM

There is more than meets the eye to Mudcat below the line. Mudcat has its own little nooks and crannies, thread-wise.

There is an ongoing thread at which I lurk, but never post. The telling thing about participation in that thread, is that it includes old-timer Mudcat members who no longer post anyplace else below the line; they used to, but one aggressive response too many put them off, and now they restrict their posts to this one thread. The thread itself is no secret, the members who post there include moderators.

If I tell you the topic, it would give the thread away obviously.
I will never post there, because I find it too insular. For the ongoing posters to that thread, the closeness of the atmosphere is protective and comforting. Far be it from me to belittle the thread's communal decision to keep the sharings as civil and kind as possible; there is warmth and concern in the posts, and there's not a thing wrong with same.

And yet, when I have peeked at the thread for updates, and then move on, it is like coming up for fresh air and a breath of breeze; it's downright smother-some down there.

No, Big Al, the baddies do not have below-the-line all to themselves. There are places of refuge below the line as well, and those places are often frequented and well populated.

It's just that some threads smell a bit more rank than other threads hereabouts.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:16 PM

At times, it's same old, same old, innit? Good or bad? Hahahaa.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM

It's hard not to judge a whole group by the actions of some of its members.
I'm thinking of somewhere like Magaluf, where as I understand it, the young Brits rampage about horribly drunk all night having indiscriminate sex, making a noise and so on. The Majorcans could be forgiven for imagining that British people have few morals and spend most of their time inebriated.

Similarly, we seem to have quite a few beggars in Norwich of Romanian origin (I have asked them while offering a bit of money) It would be easy to assume that Romania is populated entirely by indigent scroungers.

I find myself subconsciously making generalisations like this, and try very hard to stop doing it.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 01:04 PM

I have not, do not and will not judge anyone, Al. Just their actions. If you believe that east Europeans are lawless that is entirely up to you but do not expect those who disagree with you to keep quiet about it. You are pretty much saying you are entitled to your opinions and that is quite right. I am also entitled to mine and if you have a tantrum because my opinion is that it it racist to brand people as lawless just because of where they come from then you are going to be spitting your dummy out a lot more in future.

BTW - Biblical references are wasted on me. Better to quote from more recent works of fantasy that I may have read and enjoyed.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 12:26 PM

well this is it..the ultimate arrogance. People think different from me...so they are racist.

this was pretty much the whole of the remain argument. That people had grievances could not be countenanced.

Well you got your wake up call - but you're still sleepwalking over a sea of arrogance and misplaced self righteousness.

Remember Matthew 6 - the sermon on the mount. judge not lest ye be judged
.

Dave you do too much ill informed judging of your fellow man by a country mile.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 11:16 AM

Nudcat? I didn't know we did porn as well...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 11:04 AM

It does indeed, Dick.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 10:42 AM

Nudcat provides some laughter

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 10:39 AM

"try talking about something positive."

See UK by-elections thread.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:47 AM

Bobad - I have never argued that point. You are confused.

Al, I was also targeted by the BNP. That has nothing at all to do with the fact that you said you believe that east Europeans are lawless. No falseness or malice.

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

...

well i suppose that IS what I'm saying.

It is there for all to see so, unless you can explain that you meant something else, how can you say it is false. And for the for the record, once again, I only ever bring this up when you do. Look back up the thread if you doubt the veracity of that.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:46 AM

It is Boston in the UK that is the city of discussion, Donuel.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:45 AM

Why I don't post more, am generally uninspired, and avoid much of Mudcat is that nobody has the sense and self control to avoid fighting about whatever provokes them... and there are loads of provocation available everywhere. Jews/the "liberal" left/history/equal marriage rights/whatamimissing? - just please, once in a while shut the fuck up, suck it up and try talking about something positive.

I don't like you, you don't like me, but neither one of us has to care about that if we find some common ground.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:43 AM

I concur that Boston is horribly openly racist among certain classes.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:32 AM

you know very well what I said and you're twisting it to justify your abusive nature.

I described a situation I found in Boston. You've never been there. You know nothing of the place.

For your information - its always been tough dock town with loads of East Europeans sailors. It is well used to Eastern Europeans. And I'm talking about generations. Thomas cromwell was negotiating for the town guilds with Dutch and Flemish traders in Tudor times. with not to mention all the Polish people who came there after the war.

The point is that Boston is the vortex of the unrest regarding Brexit. If you have no fucking interest in the matter, you just want to call names. go and find someone who is prepared to play your silly abusive games. Someone for whom, the term racist is just a play thing. Much of my working life was spent teaching in inner city schools. I have been targetted by the BNP - but you're much worse and much more persistent.

You give the left a bad name. By the falseness and malice behind your charges.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:13 AM

I thought long and hard about putting this above the line.

No matter what, the usual impossible suspects would bring their ego squabbles to bear anywhere. A protest song challenge above the line seems doable.

The general population may not need the songs incumbent upon the folk society to provide.

Many may actually rather Obey and Believe Lest They Betray.
Protest exists in unheard numbers among women (the most effective group) but Mudcat seems to have an imagination that doesn't go beyond dropping a postcard in the mail. Where are its balls? Where are its songs?

It has been more than 45 days of internal chaos. Once an external threat demands a Trump response that justifies marital law maybe the inconvenient insanity of the Supreme Commander will inspire a more fitting musical response.


Unlike Mrrzy,

I came here with an invite from Sorcha after being banned from a Classical musical version of a political soapbox website. I also wanted a second chance to improve my writing which was more effective and deliberate than my dyslexic speech.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:08 AM

Right Gnome, just like how Jews and the Jew owned media undermined Labour by falsely accusing it of anti-Semitism............bloody hypocrite.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:38 AM

I asked Al does he mean that east Europeans are lawless. The answer came back "well i suppose that IS what I'm saying". Even though I have provided evidence that it is not true regardless of false perceptions. Now, do you have anything useful to say or are you just going to continue sniping from the sidelines as usual?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:32 AM

What a troll you are Dave. The man's telling us what he saw , not that every East European is a criminal!

You know very well what he means and your MO is the same every time. It's a fucking good job most of us have you worked out.

I suppose your little game of flowers and beer tales proved unsatisfying?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:30 AM

This place has kept me sane over the years.

I found it first as the place that kept having that last line that I was seeking for whichever old song I'd had on records, but came to consider it a personal friend.

I was one of the first people to post something that wasn't music-related but was important (imo), and that I wanted/needed to discuss with my good friend and favorite largish community of like minds. I got *some* grief for it but only the "this is a music site" kind, no ad hominem or other insults.

Before that, if I wanted to discuss something with my friend that was important to me but unmusical, I couched it as a music thread; one strong memory is when I didn't get custody of my small twins I posted about looking for songs about that, and people did discuss me and my kids which was what I needed, but I had the, shall we say grace? Politeness? Consideration? Tact? to couch it in the terms the forum preferred. Then I got tactless, as one does with good friends, got off my better behavior and started being me, which meant sometimes just posting things that I thought the forum would enjoy talking about, or about which I needed the help of my friend. Now, I like that there are above and below the line, and I mostly enjoy both. But I also am willing to stop reading when a thread devolves into the mud.

Speaking of which this conversation should be above the line, no? It's about Mudcat which makes it directly relevant.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:08 AM

So, let me get this right, you are saying that east Europeans are lawless? Even in light of the evidence I provided that this is not the case?

I am sorry you cannot grasp how insulting that is to a law abiding east European. Are you east European? Even partly? How much time have you spend with east Europeans? Has anyone ever told you that your Dad is more likely to be a criminal than anyone else?

Brass balls indeed...

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:56 AM

well i suppose that IS what I'm saying. becausethat's what any number of people told me was happening.
The point is you said it was said from a racist motive.
I say I'm just telling you what's going on.

I'm sorry you can't grasp the difference. have you been to Boston? are you cognisant at all of that area?

I mean - really its you who are talking from a position of ignorance and predjudice.

We can all be experts on subjects we know nowt about. All it takes is the brass balls to talk total shit.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:41 AM

Donuel - 04 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM

"It is incumbent among comedians and musicians to speak truth to power."

That removes you from the equation then doesn't it Donuel.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:02 AM

I repeat. You have still not answered the question, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.


DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 05:59 AM

I suppose its a bit like the Pope being denial about priest paedophiles - my gang, right or wrong.

bless you my son.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:27 AM

You have still not answered the question, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM

well i didn't say i was upset Dave. I just reported what numerous people said to me and was reflected in the Brexit poll. I'm bloody sorry if the world does not conform to your strict standards, but I do not see that me distorting the truth is helpful to anyone except the ostrichocracy.

Of course we can pretend the world revolves round your vision of harmony and light.

Perhaps you missed your calling in life working for Tass telling everyone about how bloody fantastic the five years plan is. Or maybe Dr Goebells could have found use for your talents as a finger pointer.

However I'm not going to start lying about what I experienced at my time of life. And frankly I'm pissed off that you should feel you have the right to apply that pressure to make me, just because what i say is 'off message'.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:08 AM

and Farcebook

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:32 PM

Technocrats believe that technology will save us all.

Yup. Just like Twitter - that one worked a treat didn't it?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:40 PM

We all think of our culture is normal. It is just one culture of millions over 70,000 years. If you were an Aztec you would have thought some pretty weird shit was normal.

Culture is always crazy depending on your POV

Hell, we all shit in our drinking water and think that is normal every time we flush.

We know what is up with Democrats and Republicans but Technocrats believe that technology will save us all. With new energy sources, population control and advanced vehicles in a couple hundred to a thousand years we should get a handle on the climate.
Think how cars changed culture
In the future, kids will ask Dad&Mom to borrow the flying saucer for a date.

Now how is that for thread drift.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:04 PM

Greg all that was fake news. ;^) Didn't Lincoln hire Gen. John Galt to deport the Indians, Mexicans and Blacks but the General's ship went down on the first voyage. It hit an underwater wall.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:47 PM

Nixon seemed the more plausible.

Yeah, and we all know how that one worked out-----

In history lincoln was a republican

Oh pleaswe, not that old line of BS. Presented with the current Republican party in the U.S. Lincoln would throw up at the very least.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

what good is Mudcat?

THREAD DRIFT

that's what!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:16 PM

Donuel, Jerry Rasmussen was wrong.
KEBEROXU, I have had the privilege of meeting Carthy quite a lot. I have great respect for him as a person singer and musician, but I do not always agree with him.
Political songs can be cultural, non political songs can also be cultural,
" what is political is not cultural" well that can occasionally be true, how about the horst wessel song?is that cultural?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:36 PM

I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

What can you learn from someone who purports to be against racism yet is prejudice against a whole race? Irony maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:18 PM

If this thread does, in fact, inspire a new song -- great, or otherwise -- it will then give the lie to one opinion posted earlier, that what is political is not cultural. I can picture Martin Carthy shooting that one down, point blank! Without batting an eye! Mind you, I never had the privilege of meeting Carthy although I heard him sing in person. But Carthy's interviews and essays are most eloquent about the subversive characteristic of the English in their wordsmithing, and he would include more-or-less-political verbalizing in there. Emphasis on "include."

That's the heartening point agreed to by a majority, that Mudcat is inclusive.
Of course that means you have to agree to disagree with others, and sometimes you have to make yourself stop and think before you give in to the temptation to take offense.

Member Ollaimh is a good example for me. The post to this thread commented on something Ollaimh had observed at this forum. I think you'll find, though, should you do a search for it, that on this same forum, the same member more precisely volunteered that this same something "used to be" prevalent here. Regardless, in my time here I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

I know that I have given offense on other threads to other members and moderators alike. I remember to watch my big mouth, metaphorically speaking, when I log in here lately.