BS: Cultural genocide

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:52 AM

Jim,
"UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185"

These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel.
They are the descendants of those displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948, many voluntarily in the expectation of returning behind victorious Arab armies to become the beneficiaries of the newly deceased Jews' properties.

A greater number of Jews were displaced then, but they were quickly settled in the tiny and overcrowded sliver of land that is Israel.

Millions of ethnic Germans were displaced fro E.Europe in 1945, the greatest number of refugees ever created.
All quickly settled.

The Palestinian's Arab brothers refused to settle them or give them any citizenship rights so that they and their numerous descendants are still refugees well over half a century later.

No ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel.
You lied Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:39 AM

The "Palestinian" Refugee Industry

Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are "people whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict". Not only that – UNRWA's definition encompasses also the descendants of the original refugees, as we can see from UNRWA's own website. There does not appear to be any basis for such a sweeping definition in the UN resolution which established UNWRA and it would appear that this definition was a later development. Once again, when it comes to the Israel-Arab conflict, the goalposts have been moved and just like the concepts of "genocide", "ethnic cleansing", "apartheid" and "democracy", so too the word "refugee" has been re-defined. "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees able to "bequeath" their refugee status to their descendants. Furthermore, "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees in the world to have a United Nations agency dedicated specifically and uniquely to helping them.

UNRWA has a staff of over 25,000 to deal with some 5 million "Palestine refugees". Of these, 99% are locally recruited "Palestinian" Arabs. No wonder it has become politicised! In contrast, UNHCR deals with all the other refugees in the world (about 33.9 million persons in 125 countries) with a staff of less than 8000! It seems clear that UNWRA has become a self-serving organisation, which has helped to perpetuate the "Palestinian refugee" problem rather than to solve it.


THE VIEW FROM THE PALACE

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:01 AM

Address the facts and figures given instead of lying and distorting
Jim Carroll

Israel's War on Palestine: It's Bad, but Is It 'Genocide'?
August 13, 2014
Charles Davis

"It's heartbreaking to see," said US President Barack Obama of the death and destruction his government has helped the state of Israel deliver to the people of Gaza. It's "really heartbreaking," said US Secretary of State John Kerry of the nearly 2,000 innocent people killed by the Israeli military with weapons provided by the US government. "The loss of children has been particularly heartbreaking," said Susan Rice, US Ambassador to the United Nations, of dead little boys and girls—more than 400 of them—being stacked on top of one another in a freezer meant for ice cream because Gaza's morgues are overflowing with corpses.
There are a lot of words that one could use to describe the collective punishment of a stateless people living in what a top United Nations official describes as an "open-air prison," but "heartbreaking" is perhaps the most inadequate, suggesting that there's a certain tragic inevitability to Israel's bombardments of Gaza, to which the only proper response is a shrug and a shake of the head. It's acceptable to lament Israel's killing of innocents, but the repeated bombing of UN schools packed with thousands of frightened civilians is, according to the harshest respectable critics, a strategic error—a case of "good intentions" paving the way to hell on Earth for Palestinians—not a reason to withdraw support for the settler-colonial project in Palestine or to "delegitimize" the idea of a state explicitly founded on ethnic supremacy.
Israel's brutality is, of course, tragic, and the killing of babies is never a good look, but it's more than just heartbreaking folly. "It is a moral outrage and a criminal act," according toUN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Widely viewed as an ally of the US and Israel, Ban nonetheless has labeled Israel's deliberate targeting of UN schools in Gaza a "gross violation of international humanitarian law."
Amnesty International has likewise accused Israel of committing "crimes against humanity" over its targeting of hospitals, ambulances, and first-responders, saying the state should be referred to the International Criminal Court for prosecution. And Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of "blatantly violating the laws of war," with the group documenting numerous instances in which Israeli soldiers went out of their way to shoot fleeing civilians. But no Western official has called the terrorizing of 1.8 million people living in Gaza an "act of terrorism," though it is openly intended to bring about political change and punish the people of Palestine for electing the wrong leaders. And while you'll hear the word at protests, the leading human rights organizations have refrained from calling it "genocide."
Defenders of Israel will say that's because it's the wrong word to use. Writing in the Jewish Daily Forward, New York attorney Inna Vernikov goes with Merriam-Webster in defining genocide as "the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group." That's inappropriate with respect to Gaza, she argues, because Israel isn't to blame for the killing—the Palestinians are. Absolutely, the "people of Gaza are under siege and are being denied basic rights to freedom, movement, education, and life," but Vernikov argues that it's their own fault: "Those rights are denied them by their own government, which they selected for themselves."
While "you made me hurt you" is a favorite of abusive spouses and nation-states, even dusty old international law—drafted by the world's most abusive powers—holds that innocent civilians may not be killed for the crime of voting the wrong way, though as with many other things criminalized by international law, that has of course happened, usually at the hand of the imperial powers (and de facto jurists).
Journalist Michael Wilner also believes it's wrong to use the "G-word" with respect to Gaza. "Genocide is what happens when a people are discriminated against, corralled, and led to slaughter," he writes in the Jerusalem Post, a paper published in the state of Israel—a state that bulldozes Palestinian houses while giving subsidized homes to American settlers of Jewish descent, ethnically cleansed 80 percent of the indigenous population upon its founding, imprisoned millions in militarily occupied ghettos, and just slaughtered one out of every 1,000 people living in Gaza. Wilner means to suggest what Israel has done isn't as bad as some other terrible things in the world, but a bad thing need not be the worst thing in the world in order to still be a bad thing.
"It's important to remember that you don't need millions of dead bodies and a Nazi industrial system of extermination to constitute genocide under the relevant convention,"writes Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy, a Washington-based media watchdog. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocidedefines "genocide" as inflicting on a group "conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." As the very title of the treaty suggests, a genocide need not be anywhere near completed—the destruction need not be "in whole"—for genocidal behavior to merit the label. What matters is the motivation, not the body count.
"While conflict has many causes, genocidal conflict is identity-based," says the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide, an expert on such things. "These conflicts are fomented by discrimination," as well as "hate speech inciting violence."
Now, consider: Israel is a state that openly discriminates on the basis of identity, denying Palestinian refugees the ability to visit their old villages in what is now Israel while granting citizenship to anyone with a Jewish mother who wants it. Israel is a state where the deputy speaker of parliament openly calls for replacing the indigenous population of Gaza with Jewish settlers, and where a leading newspaper just published an article titled "When Genocide Is Permissible." It's the sort of place where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu feels comfortable calling the 20 percent of the population that isn't Jewish—the indigenous people who weren't pushed out—a "demographic threat" to apartheid, their continued reproduction posing a serious challenge to continued ethnic supremacy west of the Jordan River. So why are people afraid to use that word: "genocide"?
Amnesty International spokesperson Natalie Butz said that the language her group typically employs is "war crimes and crimes against humanity," which she said both sides in the conflict have committed (though with a wildy varying degree of success). She said that "we want the situtation referred to the International Criminal Court, which is the international institution with jurisdiction over war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide," but did not respond when asked why Amnesty doesn't refer to Israel's actions as "genocidal." Human Rights Watch was also reluctant to explain its linguistic decisions. Their press office would only say that the group "condemns Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza but does not refer to its actions as genocide," which I, of course, already knew because I asked them why they do that.
Not getting very far by asking the groups to explain themselves, I turned to Ali Abunimah, publisher of The Electronic Intifada, a news site devoted to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"The popular definition tends to make people automatically dismiss or diminish claims that anything short of Holocaust-scale extermination of human beings can be considered 'genocidal,'" said Abunimah, author of The Battle for Justice in Palestine. By using the word "genocide," some may simply be looking to avoid appearing insensitive, to avoid the appearance that they're equating an awful situation in Palestine with one of the worst crimes humanity has ever known, the genocidal killing of 6 million Jews.
Indeed, some might point out, and many people do, that the slaughter in Gaza isn't even the worst contemporary case of mass murder. Syria's civil war has left more than 100,000 people dead, with atrocities committed by both Bashar Assad and the rebels fighting against him. But that's a civil war being fought to preserve a regime's hold on power, not to eliminate ethnic minorities. It's horrific, but it's not genocide—it's a fight for power, not a fight to extinguish an ethnicity—and, crucially, there's no shortage of people willing to condemn what's happening there.
It takes no courage in the west to condemn the crimes of the Syrian government or, for that matter, the Islamic State. Israel, on the other hand, is supported by a super power that gives it a $3-billion-a-year allowance for weapons that it then uses to carry out war crimes. It has nuclear weapons. As journalist Max Blumenthal argues, Israel's not David but Goliath—and right now it acts with impunity.
It's not just the thousands of people—Palestinians—that the state of Israel has killed over the years in its regular assaults, dwarfing the handful killed by Hamas's rockets. Israel has, for decades, been carrying out what Israeli historian Ilan Pappé describes as an "incremental genocide," one that has since 1948 seen Palestinians steadily removed from their land, their homes destroyed, and their families forced into fenced-in refugee camps, for no reason other than that Palestinians were born to the wrong mothers.

"It's been going on for a long time, the killings, the incredibly awful conditions of life, the expulsions that have gone on [since 1947], when 700 or more villages in Palestine were destroyed, and in the expulsions that continued from that time until today," said Michael Ratner, president of the left-of-ACLU Center for Constitutional Rights, in an interview with the Real News. "It's correct and important to label it for what it is." And that label, he said, is "genocide."
It's in these types of situations that the supposedly civilized nations—the ones that go to war for petroleum, not to ethnically cleanse—are supposed to invoke their "responsibility to protect." In Libya, that meant dropping bombs from the safety of the sky and leaving it worse than it was before. No one wants that. Israel should not be bombed. But Israel can be prosecuted for being an apartheid state carrying out a slow genocide. Western governments can stop blocking legal actions aimed at providing consequences for genocidal behavior and stop giving Israel the weapons it uses to slaughter Palestinians.
At the very least, Israeli leaders should be as afraid to travel abroad as a Bashar al Assad or Dick Cheney, fearing that at any airport, at any time, somone could come up to them, slap on some handcuffs, and carry them off to a war crimes tribunal. But it's best not to wait for the political establishment to act. Indeed, it's all too clear that the United States, the country in the best position to protect the people being bombed by its client-state—which has a responsibility to do so—has no intention of protecting any Palestinians. It's up to the people, then, to make Israel a pariah, something that can be accomplished in part by calling its behavior what it is. There's a lot of war and evil in this world, but kicking people out of their homes and bombing them because of who they are—because they aren't the same ethnicity—has a specific name: "genocide."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM

"It was abundantly clear that IDF commanders had gone beyond any mandates that international law requires to avoid civilian casualties," writes Stern. He reported how Dabla attorneys have to sign off on a "target card" for each airstrike on terror targets, with the cards enumerating all of the relevant data about the planned strike.

In contrast, the Hamas "doctrine manual" captured by the IDF in the Shejaiya neighborhood early last August documents how the terror group urges its fighters to embed themselves among civilians in hopes that the IDF will kill civilians.

"Hamas's playbook calls for helping to kill its own civilians, while the IDF's playbook goes to extreme​ - ​some say inappropriate​ - ​lengths to protect innocent life in war," reads the article.

Int'l Legal Experts Slam IDF - For Over-Warning Gazans

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:48 AM

Iranian human rights activist, Shabnam Assadollahi, explains to VOI's Molly Livingstone why Israel is often called out in the media and the United Nations for violating human rights, when Iran and other Middle East countries are engaged in blatant human rights abuse. Shabnam spent 18 months in an Iranian jail as a 16-year-old. Shabnam and her family fled to Turkey and finally ended up in Canada, where she is committed, as a journalist and activist, to educating about the real Iran.

Listen here

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:44 AM

Israel is far from perfect, but it has much to teach the Middle East – and, indeed, the world – when it comes to religious tolerance and promoting acceptance of LGBT people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:16 AM

Those are the descendants of those displaced in 1948.
They should not still be refugees.
Two million German speakers were displaced in 1945.
All settled.
More Jews than Arabs were displaced in 1948.
All settled.
There is no ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel.
None are leaving Israel for a better life in Arab countries.
You made that up Jim.

Why do you need to do that if Israel is so evil?

Why does no decent government accuse Israel of massacres, war crimes or ethnic cleansing?
Because it is all bollocks made up by people you hate Israel.
Like you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:14 AM

B'Tselem is just a bunch of antisemites, dontcha know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:07 AM

"None are, or have been"
>UNWRA figures 5,248,185
Stupid little man
Now about the rest of the "page of gibberish".....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 07:28 AM

Jim stated that Arabs are being ethnically cleansed out of Israel.
That is a lie.
None are, or have been.

All countries have policies about where people can and can't live and settle within that country.
You can not even camp in this country.

Now, why do decent governments not condemn Israel for war crimes and massacres, or even accuse them of it.

Because it is made up bollocks, like the ethnic cleansing of Arabs out of Israel.
The Arab population is growing at double the rate of the Jews and they will be the majority in fifty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:51 AM

An Israeli organisation speaking out against Israeli human rights abuses -

http://www.btselem.org/

Some interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:32 AM

Ethnic cleansing in the Negev continues apace. Whole villages are razed because they are "unrecognised" (a nice Israeli regime euphemism). Mosques are bulldozed. 500 homes destroyed this year so far. What would you call this effort to clear out the Bedouin from the Negev, Keith? Gentle persuasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:14 AM

Keith
Ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a feature of Israeli policy, both from Jews and Arabs within Israel and from elswhere all over theworly in "decent" and indecent countries alike
The term "ethnic cleansing" was first applied to Israel by Israeli Jews protesting the treatment pf Palestinians
According to UNWRA figures, in 2000, there were 531 depopulated Palestinian villages and 5,248,185 Palestinian refugees scattered all over the world
Their report states that as of January 2010, there are 1,396,368 registered refugees in camps and 3,370,302 registered refugees not in camps.
There are no figures for those not registered.
The number of Palestinian refugees is the largest in the world of any national group.   
I have no intention of allowing you to bluff your way through this.
You have the documented facts - if you have any problem with them, present your own.
That goes for all the "page of gibberish"
Up to now, your sordid little trio have been only of value as good for a laugh - now your sickening abuse of humanity with your lies and distortions, has even taken that away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 04:19 AM

Nice to see BraidedBeardedBruce wade in. Even nicer to see him not wishing to be associated with his own drivel.

To what I can see, there have to be a minimum number of dead bodies before Keith and Terribulus see a problem as an issue. And then, it's the "liberal" press counting them so they can be ignored.

Didn't this thread start as something to do with one of the colonies?
😎

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 04:02 AM

Steve,
No-one's interested in your points-addressing, really.

Not on your side obviously!
You only want the case of one side put.
Hardly a progressive liberal attitude Steve!

Jim,
OK let's look a bit closer at the first point you raised in your page of gibberish.
The ethnic cleansing out of Israel of Arab Israelis.

Where do they go?
How rapidly is their population declining?
How many have gone so far?
Is the answer not zero?

None have left and none are leaving.
The truth is that the population is rapidly expanding!

The claim " ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians and the Palestinians" is just another lie made up by people consumed with hatred for Israel, in this case YOU Jim.

Now, which point would you like addressed next Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:37 PM

Well now. There are lots of "Muslim countries", Brucie-boy, several of which have been grossly interfered with by the West. But there is only the one Israel, size- and population-wise on a par with bonnie Scotland, unlike a good few of those "Muslim countries" which are a sight bigger in both those regards than most European countries. You might as well moan because London gets more public money than John O'Groats. Incidentally, it is not "the Jews" who get American largesse. It is the state of Israel, which contains not only millions of Arab citizens but also significant numbers of other people who are not Jewish. Perhaps you forgot that bit, or were, alternatively, indulging in the kind of wishful thinking typical of the Sharon/Bibi mindset. Finally, I have told you a dozen times that the pro-Israel lobby is by no means exclusively Jewish. There are many Christians and atheists involved as well. Which is why you will find, once you can clear your mind of your stupid prejudices, that I never refer to the "Jewish lobby", always to the pro-Israel lobby. Would that you put a bit more effort into being accurate, eh? You will not find one single reference in any post of mine to my claiming that "Jews control governments and media". You know why? Because I don't think that, that's why. As ever, feel free to not let facts get in the way of your prejudices. And, by the way, I've let you waste far too much of my time. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:43 PM

"highly successful endeavours of the pro-Israel lobby and their allies in the western media."

Talking about turning the record over it seems you are unable to let go of the old antisemitic canard that Jews control governments and media. Let me remind you ONCE AGAIN that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a hoax, it was written by Russian antisemites for the exact purpose that you are demonstrating.

What about the Arab lobbies? No complaints against them. No Jews, no news right Stevie?

Muslim countries receive way more American largesse than the Jews. No complaints there Stevie boy?

Always only singling out Israel eh Stevie....why is that? (as if we don't know)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:34 PM

Steve, you might be interested that a recent poll that shows tha a substantial majority of U.S. citizens - something on the order of 57% - agrees that the U.S should support Israel EVEN WHEN IT GOES AGAINST THE INTERESTS OF THE U.S. to do so.

We've raised up half a country of complete idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:02 PM

Turn the record over, Keith. No-one's interested in your points-addressing, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity

Through the necessity of Israel's puppet-masters, the US of A, who, let's not forget, bankroll without question the Israeli military to the tune of three billion a year. I wonder why. Unfortunately, the puppet-masters have themselves become the puppets, thanks to the highly-successful endeavours of the pro-Israel lobby and their allies in the western media. I wonder what will happen when the oil becomes less attractive. I wonder whether the Israeli regime wonders that too. The yanks do have a habit of not bothering over-much about countries that can't help much with their oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently.

Are you prepared to have your points addressed Jim?
If so, you could start with your most serious one first.
What is it?
(You do want them addressed, don't you Jim?)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 03:51 PM

"Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity"
Don't you talk down to anybody from the hole you have dug for yourself - it makes you look the twot you are.
The palestiniansd were not goaded into anything by neighboring Aab states - it was the Israeli massacres and the threat of losing their land taht gaklvanised them into action
"After 67 years you would have thought that the eejits would have learned something "
How racistand inhuman can yo get - they have lost their lands to a terrorist state - which you and your thick mate are supporttin, which, in their turn, have been bankrolled by some of the world's richest people and most powerful countries,
"Thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel"
Go and count the casualties and compare them to the number of mainly civilian Palestinian dead - you have been given the figures.
"When push comes to shove, the truth is that Arab Israelis have full citizenship and the rights that go with it."
Yu have been given the Inequality Report - the "full rights" don't mean shit to a people who have eed ghettoiised in they own lands.
You have been hiven the everyday humiliation they receive at te hands of the self-proclaimed owners of the territory
Will mean even less when Israel succeeds in establishing an Apartheid state
"A page of hysterical gibberish Jim."
Then feel to prove it so point by point
Every singlle point I have made is verifiable or proven wrong by you - won't hold my breath
Pair of ultra-right morons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:55 PM

"The Palestinians have a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force, while the Israelis are highly trained and armed with sophisticated light and heavy weaponry"

Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity. It was the Jewish community of "Palestine" that had the rag tag assortment of poorly armed and poorly trained defence forces back in 1929, they got better in 1939, were far better trained and organised by 1948 and continued to hone their skills thereafter.

Now back in 1948 Christmas, those "Palestinian" Arabs you seem to care so much for were backed and prodded and goaded into action by neighbouring Arab states who put their entire armed forces at the disposal of the Arab cause aimed at driving the Jews into the sea - they lost in 1948, again in 1956, yet again spectacularly in 1967 and again in 1973. By this stage the "Palestinian" Arabs pals had had enough and two of the main allies settled a Treaty with Israel - land in exchange for Peace - both of those agreements have stood the test of time, but as the Arabs of Palestine continued their struggle egged on by the likes of Libya, Syria, Iraq and Iran they kept on losing but those allies and the terrorist groups they sponsored always proved to be capable and prepared to fight to the last drop of "Palestinian" Blood - NOTE that carefully Mr Carroll, GregF and Steve Shaw "Palestinian Blood NEVER their own. There then ensued one grizzly f**k up after another until now the Arabs of "Palestine find themselves to be: a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force"

After 67 years you would have thought that the eejits would have learned something - but no. They have received in aid more money than was given to the whole of Europe under the Marshall Aid Plan after the Second World War and they have managed to do or achieve absolutely nothing with it - apart that is from making their "leaders" extremely wealthy chaps, while those "leaders" keep their "people" in hopeless abject poverty.

Thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel, indiscriminately fired at the civilian population of southern Israel. Now as a citizen of the United Kingdom if so much as one rocket had been fired from foreign soil into the United Kingdom I would fully and reasonably expect my elected Government to take action to prevent any repetition using whatever means they had at their disposal - the Government of any country is after all charged with safeguarding the population and defending the sovereignty of the realm.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:12 PM

If it is, in fact, Bearded Putz hiding behind the "guest" moniker, what you should call him can't be repeated in polite society.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

Nonsensical post, Brucie-troll. Incomprehensible with a dash of illiteracy chucked in. Nice work. Mind if I call you Bruce? Prefer Brucie? So much more affectionate...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM

Hmmmm..... is playing the Antisemite Card one step above, or one step below, playing the Nazi card, I wonder?

I'll have to check with Mike Godwin.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM

A page of hysterical gibberish Jim.

You've a stronger stomach than me if you read the crap he spews.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:55 PM

Perhaps I can help.
Early in that post you said,
When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians

When push comes to shove, the truth is that Arab Israelis have full citizenship and the rights that go with it.
No citizen can be "ethnically cleansed" out of Israel.

That is one less issue for you to worry about.
What else can I help with?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:52 PM

It's called the western media. There's also a powerful, wealthy and extremely undemocratic lobby group

Ah yes, that old antisemitic canard raises it's ugly head again.

You might be interested in this exchange I came across on Facebook, at least they are honest about it unlike you and the others who think you're fooling anybody:

"Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:49 PM

A page of hysterical gibberish Jim.

If you want to discuss these issues, let's do it a point at a time and compare views calmly and rationally.

What is the single main point you wanted to make with your last post please?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:38 PM

"Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda.."
Israel is equally as good at propaganda - hasn't it been able to blame decades of itswar crimes on 'The Jews' and its supporters are still doing so here.
When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians and the Palestinians are fighting back using every method at their disposal.
The Palestinians have a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force, while the Israelis are highly trained and armed with sophisticated light and heavy weaponry, which include drones, (now a major Israeli industry), chemicals, and any personnel missiles weapons, including flechette and dime missiles, all of which have been shown to have been used n civilians last year.
Their armoury includes nuclear weaponry.
It is little wonder that the Palestinians resort to terror tactics in defence of their rightful homeland - who wouldn't, given their situation - they'd be insane not to.
Doesn't make it particularly humanitarian, but without it, the Palestinians would have been long "driven into the desert" as the Zionist fanatics are demanding.
The Palestinians are doing nothing that the Israeli 'freedom fighters' were doing, it both the British and the Arabs, before and after the formation of the State of Israel and Palestinian 'terrorism' measures small to the massacres and persecution carried out by the Israelis down the years.
As far as casualty figures are concerned - these are the two totals of civilian casualties of the conflict between 1987 and 2011
Palestinian - 7978 (1620), Israeli 1503 (142) - those in brackets represent casualties under the age of 18.
According to the Israeli Human rights Group, B'Tselem, since September 2000 a total of 7,454 Palestinian and Israeli individuals were killed.
1,317 of the 6,371 Palestinians were minors, and at least 2,996 took no part in the fighting.
1,083 Israelis were killed, including 741 civilians. 124 of those killed were minors.[271]
Some discrepancy, huh?
Puts Keith's "Israel is fighting for its existence", in the dustbin where it truely belongs.
"There is a whole industry devoted to Palestinian propaganda aimed at Israel and Jews, it's called Pallywood."
Israel has many hundreds of such organisations dedicated to driving Palestinians out of their rightful home - you might start with Gatestone (look it up), then go on to 'Israelshield', 'Wild Olive (dedicated to attacking Christians who criticise Israel), U.N, Watcch (dedicated to proving that The United Nations is an Antisemitic organisation) NGO Monitor (which clamis that the Canadian Government is funding Anti-Israeli propaganda), The Israel Project (which claims that Amnesty International is Antisemitic)..... wheer do you stop?   
"Bruce",
Pretty sure he is the one who called himself "bearded Buce" some time back - he has the same Antisemitic vitriolic style along with a similar streak of illiteracy that marked is postings out in his former non-identity.
This troll has claimed not to be him, but I swear I heard a cock crowing three times outside the window when I read that.
"Everton"
"Hate" is probably too strong a word - pity is more appropriate perhaps!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:31 PM

Actually, there's a whole mighty industry devoted to pro-Israel propaganda. It's called the western media. There's also a powerful, wealthy and extremely undemocratic lobby group in the US that will convert any US politician who criticises the Israeli regime in anything other than the mildest terms to toast. Even in the UK the two main political parties contain thriving Friends Of Israel factions, very popular with MPs. The Tory version is particularly hard-line. Dirty business, this conflict thang.   Odd how you appear to expect the Palestinian side to be squeaky clean, yet utter not a word against the western world's massive pro-Israel drive. I think I've heard that called " hypocrisy".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:16 PM

As you clearly haven't a clue how to use [sic], I suggest you refrain from using it, thereby avoiding making an even bigger fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 12:06 PM

Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda...

There is a whole industry devoted to Palestinian propaganda aimed at Israel and Jews, it's called Pallywood....look it up.

Some of our posters are already very familiar with it, indeed it is the primary source of their information[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:52 AM

Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda...


"Back in March 2002, some 130 Israelis were murdered in Palestinian terror attacks culminating in the Passover massacre in a Netanya hotel, which killed 29. In reaction, Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield. As part of the campaign Israeli forces entered the Jenin refugee camp, a major nucleus of terrorist planning and operations.

With Israel finally fighting back militarily, the Palestinians launched a media counterattack. Most famously, Palestinian Authority spokesman Saeb Erekat announced to the world that Israeli forces had massacred "over 500 civilians" in Jenin -- a figure later rounded down to the 52 Palestinians, most of them armed combatants, who were actually killed. Twenty-three Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting -- a direct result of the fact that Israel refrained from bombing or shelling targets in the camp for fear of harming civilians.

Later investigations by human rights NGOs revealed -- even to the UN's satisfaction -- that there had been no massacre or wanton destruction in Jenin and that the Palestinian claims were baseless.

That, however, did not stop Palestinian filmmaker Muhammad Bakri from recycling the same mendacious claims and similar ones in his Jenin, Jenin -- a propaganda film that so enraged Israeli soldiers who were involved in the fighting that five of them, who are shown in still footage in the film, are now suing Bakri for libel. A film by Pierre Rehov, The Road to Jenin, also challenges Bakri's allegations and has been cited in the lawsuit.

Indeed, there was a shadow over Bakri's artistic detachment from the start. In August 2002 two of his cousins, Ibrahim and Yassin Bakri -- Israeli Arabs from the Galilee -- were arrested for involvement in a bus bombing that killed nine...."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:21 AM

Sabra/Shatila and Israeli bulldozers were used to dig mass graves and later,

Again not true.
Like the eye witness at Jenin who "saw" Israelis piling bodies into trucks and driving them away.
A lie to discredit them.

Like the group of nurses on the Marmara who "saw" Israelis throwing bodies into the sea.
A lie to discredit them.

No-one saw mass graves being dug.
It is another lie told to discredit the Israelis by people who hate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM

I'm right with you on the Everton thing, Jim. There are only two great teams in Liverpool, as we know - Liverpool FC and Liverpool reserves. Kudos to the true God of all scousers, Bill Shankly, for that one.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake at times, Jim. So this antisemitic troll is someone called "Bruce", is he? Has he ever posted under his proper name? Do you definitely know who he is? All I know about him is that he's a bloody coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:04 AM

""Amnesty Researcher Admits That Palestinian 'Eyewitnesses' Often Lie""
All eyewitnesses lie - and make mistakes, in certain situations - Israelis, Palestinians, American and British troops......
That's why we rely on documented facts and common-sense to make up our minds.
You, one the other hand, deliberately lie and distort in order to make your pre-decided case.
"there was no massacre."
I'm not making a cse for it being a "massacre", I'm saying that an unacceptably large number of civilians were slaughtered - you, on the other hand, are makeing a case for those deaths being "nothing".
I rest my case - you have yet to make yours
"The death toll was reduced to 50 Palestinians many of whom were fighters"
As I said - the final death toll - civilian or fighters - will never be known.
The same is true of Sabra/Shatila and Israeli bulldozers were used to dig mass graves and later, the Israelis built a sorts stadium over them
" that would deprive him of his purpose in life."
I ask again
"Are you really claiming the "The Jews" are responsible for the Israeli massacres?"
We will have to assume that you remain anonymous (Brucie) because you are ashamed of your Antisemitism
"If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll,"
I have very little "hate" and that is reserved for those who abuse and murder people for gain or for their religion, or profit, - or simply for the fun of it.
I reserve a special corner of my "hate" for those who commit(or support) war crimes and hide behind the fate of a people who lost six million of their number to a regime with aims and actions not a millon miles from those they are appeasing - a racially/culturally/religiously "pure" State", to be exact - an Apartheid State.
Otherwise I love everybody (except Everton)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM

If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll, there would not be enough left of him to fill and eyedropper.

Jim, unlike you, does not appear out of the blue, not having contributed to the discussion, making witless, trolling, gratuitous attacks on people, as you have just done. Not everything Jim says is going to suit everybody, and he'd rather tell it like it is without resort to clever tactics. But he happens to be one of the greatest humanitarians here. I assume that you are not of that ilk yourself. Why don't you just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:37 AM

You are too hard on yourself Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:28 AM

That fallacy does not apply here.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:25 AM

If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll, there would not be enough left of him to fill and eyedropper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:20 AM

More lies from haters disabused:

Sunday, May 31, 2015
Qatar compliments Israel for helping reconstruct Gaza, exposing NGO lies

Last month I noted a report written by many NGOs, including Oxfam and CARE International, that blamed Israel for the slow pace of Gaza reconstruction.

More recently Amnesty also blamed Israel (in a purportedly anti-Hamas report) saying that it needed to lift the blockade on Gaza to help reconstruction, implying that somehow Israeli restrictions were to blame for the slow pace.

I showed already in April that they were lying. Israel was not the bottleneck at all, but many countries that promised to fund the Gaza reconstruction - mostly Muslim countries - have been not paying their pledges.

Now, proof that Oxfam and Amnesty are falsely blaming Israel comes from an unlikely source - Qatar.

    Qatar continues to aid reconstruction efforts in the war-torn Gaza Strip as new projects start, says committee chief Muhammad al-Amadi.

    "The reconstruction process is progressing very well as construction material is being shipped to Gaza everyday without any obstacles," al-Amadi said to Ma'an, adding that contracts for new projects have been signed and bids for more projects will be made.

    Israel has approved all the Qatari-funded projects in the Gaza Strip, he said.

In March, Emadi admitted that most of the cement going to Gaza is being diverted to the black market, with homeowners selling cement meant to rebuild their homes. And even then he praised Israel's efforts in helping to rebuild Gaza.

Emadi's honesty about Israel exposes the hundreds of Western-funded NGOs in Israel and the territories to be nothing more than a giant scam to raise money from, and spend money on behalf of, those who hate Israel.

Posted by Elder of Ziyon at 5:00 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:11 AM

Nice to have such a troll on your side, Teribus. :-)

Thus spake the troll :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:03 AM

Nice to have such a troll on your side, Teribus. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM

Not so Jim according to every NGO and International Agency who looked into it:

Oh Teribus don't disabuse him of the veil of lies with which he envelops himself in order to enable his hatred, that would deprive him of his purpose in life.