BS: Another reincarnation story.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:19 PM

What a disturbing image.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:17 PM

meanwhile, back at the previous life..

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:16 PM

but so pink.. what's pink and wrinkly and hangs out your trousers?














your mum..

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 04 - 07:23 PM

Me, too, but i figure it wouldn't only be big at certain times, right?**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 06:23 PM

Yeah, well I thought of that too, Carol, but I didn't want to say it... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:20 PM

Moving their furniture out one piece at a time. Some people prefer to do it that way, it seems.

Re: BPL, I keep thinking of something entirely more rude than either an elephant or a flamingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:29 PM

makes me think of pink flamingos!**bg**

Pat, thanks for the link. Great and interesting site.

It is my belief that folks who are "out of it" due to a stroke, etc. are already visiting the "other side" while waiting for the body to give up or recover. Having a "walkabout" is the way I think of it.

daylia, write the book!

Two regressions went a long way in explaining certain things which have always been prominent in my life, this time around; specific things with relatives, talents, interests, and geography.

Throughout the history of the Rosicrucian Order AMORC, there have been prominent philosophers and scientists who reconciled the metaphysical teachings, including that of reincarnation, with their various disciplines; they included : Da Vinci, Paracelsus, Boehme, Bacon, Descartes, Faraday, Pascal, Spinoza, Leibniz, Newton, Franklin and Jefferson.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:48 AM

If you do that, Bill, let me know what he looks like. I keep envisioning pink elephants for some reason... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:46 AM

well, I missed the beginning of this somehow. Probably just as well...*grin*.... I don't have the time or energy to get into it. Y'll know what I think anyway. Maybe I'll just go have a beer with the Big Pink Lad and wonder why all my extrasensory receptors don't work like some of youse guys. Maybe they were all shot off in my previous incarnation as cannon fodder in the Crimean war.

carry on.....

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:00 AM

Exactly. The leaders and authorities of any and all societies always think they know how pretty well everything works. You wait a century or two, and half the stuff they believed in gets discredited by the new set of "authorities".

People are credulous and set in their ways. They resist change with the greatest tenacity, and they resist ideas they haven't already thought of themselves.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:56 AM

write the book! write it!

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:55 AM

Those who require evidence before giving serious consideration might like to consider this:
If you know everything, then you know how much of it there is, but if you don't know everything then how are you to estimate the portion of it that you don't know?
The portion you don't know might be most of it, for all you know.

I think someone said something like "science has served us well so far..." What makes you think that?
Science seems to work, as far as our limited requirements go, (or as far as its limitations allow us to require) but science might have led us miles down the garden path. It's done that to us before.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:50 AM

Well up till a few weeks ago I was just as skeptical as anyone else about the subject of reincarnation. While I've always considered the idea of multiple lives a possibility, certainly I had no proof that was satisfactory to me until a talented "psychic" friend of mine gave me some information about my own "past lives".

I was told that in my last incarnation I belonged to an important family about whom records have been definitely kept for centuries. I was lucky enough to have been given enough details about this person's life (and death) to check the story out historically.   In all honesty, EVERY LITTLE DETAIL I WAS GIVEN ... including the colour of her mother's hair! .... "FITS" PERFECTLY THE HISTORICAL FACTS I FOUND ON-LINE AND ON SEVERAL GENEOLOGY SITES! There is absolutely no way my friend could have known these historical facts ... although the family was very prominent, the person I (in all likelihood) "was" died very young, was relatively obscure.

One of the owners of the geneology sites I visited -- a learned and distinguished gentleman with "both feet on the ground" spiritually and extensive knowledge of that family and time period -- was curious about why some nobody from Canada would be asking such detailed questions about such an obscure individual. He'd been so helpful finding information and even translating the archived material that I swallowed my fears and told him my reasons. Well, he eMailed me back, telling me that in his opinion, my experience is valid, the story "good and interesting" and definitely worth further investigation. He's helping me with that, right now!

Besides the historical verification, I have enough "personal anecdotes" about the influence of that lifetime on my current one to fill a book or two -- including quite the list of long-standing and mysterious fears and "tastes", interests, attitudes and talents - even the names I chose for my children!

Anyway, maybe someday I'll write a book about it. Then again, maybe not. That's been done -- and s**t upon -- many times before, after all!   

But I just gotta ask .... if something like this happened to you, wouldn't you be just    :-O    about it too?????

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:13 AM

Yes. My mother had an out-of-body experience when ill in hospital. My uncle Bill had one once when he had been ill for some time. They both described it in a very precise way, that they were able to look down on their own bodies (not dead, but vacated temporarily by their waking consciousness) and also observe the activities of the other people around them, and so on. They then described descending back into the body...and that it had been much more comfortable not to be in that sick body, but to be free of it.

The body also has its own very simple, automatic life force which is not a thinking entity, but a sort of regulating system of energy that keeps things going. That part appears to simply disperse once the conscious soul permanently vacates the body and "cuts the chord", so to speak.

In the case of my mother and my uncle, it was only a temporary stepping out of the body, not actual death. What you might call a "near-death" experience, I suppose.

A dead body is a body that is, as Amos said, uninhabited...by the intelligent soul that used to inhabit it. Like an untended house or car it soon begins to fall apart...but much more quickly than an artificial item would, of course, because the cells decay by the usual biological processes (unless the body is frozen).

Your body is a vehicle. You are the driver. And cars don't make people, people make cars.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 04 - 07:53 AM

I was with my father when he died. I held his hand, sat by the bed, and quietly sang to him some of the songs he loved and had taught me as a little girl. His face was grey, his eyes were closed, he was shrunken and looked unconscious. when I stopped singing, he ever so gently squeezed my hand and grunted. that was all the energy he had left, but i knew it was still him listening.


anyone who has had an out of body experience knows that they can exist outside their body, they they do not need the body to remain conscious, to perceive.

I wouldnt expect anyone who hasnt had that experience to believe it, however, don''t also expect that its not possible. it may happen to you some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:49 PM

Except, of course, that the interface between life and body is a little different than the interface between the broadcaster and the radio set. A radio broadcast has to go through huge amplification to be intelligible to a radio, and be broadcast from a high tower. Contrariwise, a being operating a body has to step his output down considerably to get the body to behave properly.

But generally, I like the analogy. We used to have an announcer in these parts named Kingsley who was very knowledgeable about classical music. So when the radio which was tuned to his station suddenly stopped playing the programs he was on (actually, the station had folded) we changed it to a different radio (well, sane radio basically, but tuned to a different frequency) and lo!! there was Kingsley broadcasting about classical music from the new radio!! Remarkable!! (I am aware this torques the analogy a little, but cut me a little slack).

I have seen a man's face gradually become wholly unrecognizable as his brain succumbed to the rotting effect of advanced Parkinson's. The features slacken and the facial gestures vanish and the eyes dull. The body actually looks uninhabited -- nothing but habit left behind.    And believe it or don't but we felt we were receiving a lot more of his actual communication and personality the day after he was declared dead than we had for the months prior when he was stuck to the body in a vegetative state.

That's my .02 for what it's worth.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

It's not that he was destroyed (in my opinion only, you understand), it's that his body was damaged such that he could not express fully through it any longer. If you damage a radio a bit, you will get static when trying to tune in to the program. If you damage the radio a lot, you won't get any more program or any noise whatsoever from it. That does not mean that the program has been destroyed! It means that the radio has. But someone who didn't have a full understanding of what the radio's function is might well assume that the program itself had been destroyed when the radio stopped working.

In fact that is what natives assumed when first confronted with such things. First they assumed that the radio was alive and that the sounds it produced were its own original voice or that it was a god of some kind. Then when it stopped working they assumed it was dead.

People's general belief about physical death is entirely analogous to the radio example. The body is not the original source of the program, it's the medium through which the program broadcasts to others who are also in physical bodies. To reach physical eardrums you have got to use physical vibrations...via the vocal chords, if speaking. To reach physical eyes you have got to use visible light and shadow, and maybe color. And so it goes.

I can just see a bunch of radios sitting around bemoaning the eventual death of the program when their circuits wear out.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM

I've often thought how those who believe in something other than the body can reconcile their belief with the way the body can so easily destroy this other. I saw it happen to my father with a series of strokes. The man I knew changed into a man I didn't know and then into a human being who couldn't function. A complete personality and intelligence was destroyed until only the body was left. My father didn't exist anymore.I suppose those of faith will tell me he would be miraculously reconstructed on death so he could see himself from 30 feet above the body? And understand again what he was seeing?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM

Where is the sentiment in this statement:

"I have a conscious awareness of having experienced other lifetimes besides this one."

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

If sentiment equates with emotion I agree that 5x2=10 doesn't elicit much of it. However,if I want to postulate that 5x2=80x1/8 and insist that it is as accurate as is your figure, you might change your moniker to TheBigHuffyRedFacedLad.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM

I have to do some other stuff now, so carry on without me... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM

You have to have both life and consciousness within a body before that body's eyes can see anything. What are life and consciousness? Where did they come from? What are their dimensions and purposes? And where do they go?

Those are the great questions asked by philosophers and spiritual teachers, and they are questions well worth asking. They are the crux of what life is about.

You cannot quantify or measure life and consciousness, and you cannot produce them out of inert materials in a lab experiment. This doesn't mean they are not real, because we all know they are from direct experience. The same applies to love, fear, and hatred. We know them from direct experience, but we have no scientific means of measuring them or controlling them in any accurate fashion.

It is because science is not capable of dealing with such matters that it prefers not to acknowledge them or deal with them, but they are the most vital things in life. Scientists (in general) fear what they cannot control. In that sense they are very much like most other people. Religious fundamentalists likewise fear what they cannot control. It's the same mindset, in fact.

They can't control the UFO visits either, and they fear them most mightily...whether it's the science community or the religious fundamentalists or the military authorities. They're all jealously protecting their turf.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:37 PM

Oh, no!! It takes a lot more than conversation to piss me off, mate. Lots more!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

You're welcome, Amos. Have I pissed you off or are you in a time zone where it's time to head out to the bar? ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM

Tell ya what, I can't argue with this sort of solidity; but if you practice meditation for a while you may find it lightens things up a bit.   There's a lot of literature out there about the kind of experiences that people have had that can not be explained by any mind from brain theory. Go figger.

In any case, BPL, I have enjoyed the conversation, so many thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

Sentiment, LH. Show me the sentiment

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM

Why? Because you feel like you are the same as the body? Even though you can see things it can't?

If you subscribe to the view about mind and body being separate that might have some purchase. But if you don't, it becomes speculation based upon imagination. It's one of those can't be proven/disproven things isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

"Show me the sentiment here:

1x2=2
2x2=4
3x2=6
4x2=8
5x2=10 "

Sure, BPL. The sentiment in that post is as follows: Posting that made you feel good and secure, because it seemed to place you on firm and reliable ground in a way that no one could pick holes in...and that's why you chose to do it. You wanted to feel that way. Simple.

Believe me, there is sentiment behind everything people do and say...which is not the same as to say that it explains everything. It doesn't. And neither does 2x2=4.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM

Of course, I can't prove that when you die, you simply become dead, but it does seem highly likely

Why? Because you feel like you are the same as the body? Even though you can see things it can't?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

Depends entirely on who reads it , I suppose. I don't get any rush of emotion on the subject of multiplication, myself. It could be a button for someone who suffered in grade school, I guess!! :>) But this is like saying show me the sentiment in a carburetor or a ball bearing. There isn't any. Nor have I ever asserted that material objects had any. Of course, some people get really thrilled over carburetors....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ed.
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:09 PM

I don't think that it's difficult to accept that many things are beyond our understanding. That's a given to anyone with reasonable intelligence.

Science is the best way we have to explain the physical world, I think. Science makes no assumptions, and is happy to be proved wrong. It's not perfect, but it's done pretty well so far.

Of course, I can't prove that when you die, you simply become dead, but it does seem highly likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM

Show me the sentiment here:

1x2=2
2x2=4
3x2=6
4x2=8
5x2=10

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM

Ah. Well there sentiment, and then there's perception. I agree that various mangled emotions have no place in rigorous examination of anything, but I do value perception especially for the examination of things which can't be too readily instrumented. It is also true that emotional experience in the moment, in the context of the actual moment, is perfectly reliable. The trouble starts when we start blending in carloads of emotional freight from past moments!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

By the way, just how big and pink are you? :-) I ask that mostly because I am puzzled as to why anyone would pick such a nickname in the first place...

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:02 PM

It's virtually impossible to eliminate sentiment...unless you are Mister Spock. :-) Sentiment occurs naturally in anyone who is capable of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

I appreciate your intent to value the worth of people as highest, Amos. I share it. I believe, however, that we'd all be a lot better off if we eliminated sentiment from examination of the so-called imponderable.

BTW, sorry for abducting your thread, LH ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Well, as I said, it's natural for people to defend their established view of reality...and search out whatever they can that will support it.

May I repeat, for those who don't know, that my established view of reality from say grade 1 to about age 19 or 20 was this: There is no God, no soul, no ghosts, no afterlife, no spirit, no UFO's, no aliens, nothing like that whatsoever. All there is is physical reality, and you can find out about it strictly be following scientific procedure and investigating the empirical evidence. All that otherworldly stuff is superstitious nonsense, claptrap, and "old boots". :-) I was also the youngest kid I knew to begin disbelieving in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, and I totally rejected religion on principle. My parents were agnostics or atheists or something like that (meaning: they didn't think about stuff like that at all most of the time and didn't believe in it either).

What changed me was this: actual experience! And I grew up in the process.

That's my opinion about it. We all have our own perspective. Can you understand why I now take the glib assurance of literal-minded debunkers of all that strikes them as "unusual" with a grain of salt? It reminds me of myself when I was very young and very arrogant and not very well informed (in terms of actual experience)...but I had sure read a lot of science books and stuff like that. I loved hard facts when I was a kid the way some kids love candy. It made me feel smart knowing all that empirical stuff.

I no longer let those conventional facts blind me to other less conventional matters. Human society in any historical epoch is convinced it has reality by the tail and can explain practically everything...when the truth is: they haven't even figured out half of it and are trapped inside their own chosen mythology. Our present mythology (that more money and manufactured goods will solve everything) is leading us towards utter disaster.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:42 PM

As humans we want everything explained to us in real, physical terms that make sense to us - but not everything can be explained that way, and it's difficult to admit there are things far beyond our understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

Pardon me, BPL -- I wasn't trying to slip anything past you, but I was trying to embed an implication that who you are, ultimately is different than the brain and nerves you use to interact with the physical universe with. And the quotes around "see" was to point up a very important distinction between an electronic reaction and the actual seeing that goes a good deal further than just the optic nerve. The reference to a misfiring circuit was attributable to something you implied above, that for some reason you saw something happen which you knew was not true.    Clearly, we are both saying that there are two kinds of "viewing" going on, and maybe our tussle is really over which is which.

I do think that the true identity of You is worthy of capitals!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM

OK, stop the play right there ... you've given up a good example of what I mean, Amos. You place an emphasis on the word 'you' by typing it in giant, important letters, juxtaposed with a purposely-demeaning use of quote marks around the word 'sees' and reinforced it with a second demeaning reference 'mis-firing circuit.'

No fair. Try it in reverse: What you "see" may not be as true as that which the body sees.

It's a bit mangled, but you see where I'm coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:32 PM

BPL:

From your description, you know these were not true events (because you describe them as one would hallucinations); your integrity is not compromised when you are being true to what you really think and see. What YOU see may be truer than what some mis-firing circuit in the body "sees".   It's when you start altering what you've observed for yourself in order to satisfy someone else that you start getting in to trouble.

Or so it seems to me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Mudlark
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:51 PM

I have a literal mind, I think...just listening to discussions about chaos and string theory churns MY stomach, and boggles my mind, and they are based, supposedly, in scientific thinking. Though agnostic in faith-based subjects I've certainly had a few unexplainable incidents that have left me marvelling at the mystery of it all. And I'm OK with that. None of us truly understand the workings of our own bodies, let alone that of the universe and beyond. Watching a school of fish, or a huge flock of blackbirds, all wheeling and turning in perfect formation, it's hard not to believe in collective consciousness. If only the Discovery Channel were able able to focus a wildlife camera back through time on small tribes of stoneage humans, the same patterns might be seen. I think our brains have just outgrown mind/body wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

But the bottom line is that you must be true to what you yourself observe

I think this is one of the points upon which we differ, Amos. I would require you test your observation before putting it forward. I saw Santa in 1958 and in 1970 Jimi Hendrix winked at me from the poster on my bedroom wall ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

Right, there ya go, Cruiser.

Have a nice life, anyway, and when you find yourself looking down on your ex-body from thirty feet up, at the end, I promise not to be there to say anything snide, rude, or dismissive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM

Reincarnation?

Dipwallow!!!


(From the term coined(?) by the popular Little Hawk, and one of my favorite Mudcatters)

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

Ah, BPL, I did not mean to imply you were clos eminded -- my sarcasm was directed to Guest, who thought ridicule an appropriate submission. The history of charlatanism is enough to make anyone skeptical. No question, the great beauty of the phsyical universe is that it politely repeats itself exactly, and we can use that as a standard of proof. Great stuff for proving that gravity's acceleration in near-Earth tests is pretty consistently 9.8 m/s/s and that pi will always be 3.14 (or whatever the precise values are).

The question of life force is an order of magnitude removed from these things, though, and is a lot trickier to categorize. Thought has no bounds the way a solid object has, it has no reason to comply with any constant rates of acceleration or density. It is wild-fire when it gets going and can change the rules as quick as you like. So it is a different problem altogether. Unfortunately sorting out the differences and similarities, and finding the cause of them, is a long pursuit. Be that as it may I have always found it a rewarding one. But the bottom line is that you must be true to what you yourself observe. Nothing else will do you much good.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM

My skepticism is born of vast experience of charlatans, liars and con artists. It is not negativism, I see it as dutiful and a positive counter to protect in some small measure those who are open to exploitation. That said, I have no problem at all with diverse viewpoints -- I think it's a bit unfair to suggest incredulity equates to closed-mindedness.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM

I just KNOW I've read this thread before!


I tend to agree with Kendall on this one. If you choose to believe, or at least open yourself to the possibility of believing, so be it. Of course this is a lot easier if you've had some kind of experience that seems so familiar but you can find no explanation for it.(Personally, I've experienced this on more than one occasion, and haven't a clue as to what it means.)

Little Hawk, you speak with such certainty because this is a part of your belief system. I only worry when you end sentences with "Period". It seems to be said with the kind of finality that brooks no opposition. I know that's not the case, and that you really like explaining at length how and why you have come to the conclusions you have.

Being open-minded is sometimes being open to those who will never be able to agree with us. I hope that the people who read through here are doing so as much because it's a subject they find interesting, rather than a subject that they intensely dislike and resist so much that they must express only that...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

I may not be capable of articulating well ;o) My quest for the truth is sometimes ongoing, genuine and sometimes tortuous, but all I ever ask is for sound evidence and perhaps not to have to wade (again) through so much 1 + 1 = 8,000 stuff. And fewer insults when I disagree would be nice. (Not from this forum, in particular, generally you're all quite polite, even if you are completely mad ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

Well, I didn't think the comment about Boots was exactly germane, reasoned, articulate or persuasive, Pink Lad. Did I miss some intelligence hidden deep in one of those boots? And let me add that it was his ad hominem remark which first derailed the discussion.

If either of you have something articulate to add, please do!

A