BS: Religion, which is the best one?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:11 PM

I wouldn't call state-sponsored faith based education an advantage, Keith. Each to his or her own, religion wise. I just resent paying for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:01 AM

I have failed to find report of other school closures Musket.
Sorry.

You do not have a right for your kids to go to any particular school.
I also think it wrong to lie, and make your children lie, to get the advantage of a faith school education.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:23 AM

A Christian one in The North East. Look it up. My Internet costs too much over here. Various LEAs have successfully opposed free school applications where discrimination against non believers was apparent.

I managed to upset Jerk the Sea Cadet when I said I fully support those who tell gullible schools with decent educational achievement that their offspring are Catholic, Church of England whatever to get them in, as is their right but easier to fob them off than fight their prejudice in the courts. A friend told me there is something wrong when you have to effectively lie to get what is yours by right.

I, like many find the idea of school being anything other than secular repulsive. I recall my headmaster preaching god is love then getting a hard on when caning us. He was known for it. Mind you his tastes were strange. I was caned regularly yet I was no oil painting. How does that work?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:47 AM

But Musket, why "Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday" ?

Has such a thing ever happened before?
Any school?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM

Never mind Musket.
I found it.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/02/muslim-faith-school-closes-on-first-day-of-ofsted-inspection

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:13 AM

Why did the inspectors close the school Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:07 AM

Nor should your religion of choice cause you to engage in ongoing wars and social unrest against those who follow a different persuasion.

But I think I recall one or two occasions when it did.

And I think that we of the disinterested nature shouldn't be subjected to the collateral damage these differences cause.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:41 AM

What Joe Offer said above, with the admonition that your religion of choice should not cause others to flee from your presence e.g. don't evangelize).

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 01:40 AM

Michael, of course the Bible contradicts itself. It's a collection of writings from various authors, all of whom are completely human, although they are people who have faith in God and some sort of divine inspiration. Genesis just tells the story. Most likely, it's a fragment of a folk tale. About all I take from it, is that it's a very interesting story, saying that the two girls got daddy drunk and had sex with him so they could bear children and continue the line. I think we need to use our common sense as our primary guide when reading scripture. Is the Bible telling men to have sex with their daughters? I suppose some men might interpret it that way, but that's downright ludicrous.

The lesson, of course, is that people do weird things - not that the weird things are recommended.

-Joe-

Genesis 19:30-38

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:59 AM

Trouble is, Joe, that so much of scripture won't fit your formula, or keeps contradicting itself. Are we, for instance, to take the story of Lot & his daughters {Gen XIX 30-38} as 'teaching' that incest can be OK in some situations, tho vehemently denounced absolutely elsewhere? And of course one could multiply instances.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:21 AM

Musket says: I also say that your being comfortable with fundamentalists so long as they don't go for the children is rather naive wouldn't you say?

I don't think I would ever say that, Musket. I'm never comfortable with fundamentalists, because I have to be excruciatingly polite and have to watch every word I say. I'm usually comfortable with atheists, though. But I do think that fundamentalists have a right to teach their own children what they believe, and to raise them as they see fit - as long as they don't force their beliefs on tax-supported schools.

---

Pete talks about my 8 yrs in seminary teaching you that scripture is not reliable for believers to follow

But Pete, I think that Scripture is very reliable - I just think you interpret it falsely when you see allegory as fact, and not as sacred stories written to teach lessons.

Certainly, sin has logical consequences - but to see unrelated misfortune as a consequence of sin, is misunderstanding the lesson Genesis is teaching. Even Jesus himself told his contemporaries to get over the idea of sin causing disabilities, most notably blindness.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:33 PM

"Religion, which is the best one?"


.


.


good grief

.

.

I'm definitely staying away from this thread.



biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:56 PM

I got as far as "disobeyed God" then felt rather comfortable being seen as one who, as Joe describes them, is in attack mode.

Attack isn't the correct word though Joe. I would say that "react" would be a better choice of words. I also say that your being comfortable with fundamentalists so long as they don't go for the children is rather naive wouldn't you say? Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday I notice.

In the meantime religion has given us some rather wonderful edifices. I am about to visit The Emerald Temple here in Bangkok. (Even irreligious sods need a holiday from fighting the good fight eh? )

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM

as Claire has not given us anymore context, I will venture a few thoughts[ on suffering in general] as ,joe ,you were kind enough to ask me. however I suspect that despite your 8 yrs in seminary teaching you that scripture is not reliable for believers to follow, you will have a good idea of the main thrust of my thoughts.
the bottom line is that bible teaching is that suffering only arrived when our first parents disobeyed God.
so a perfectly created world was marred as a consequence and judgment of God. but beyond this, particular afflictions are not usually due to particular sins, though there are texts that indicate that this may be the case sometimes. the story in john gospel of the blind man illustrates that there is no definite causal connection. the disciples thought his affliction due to sin by him, or his parents. but Jesus said it was not due to either. john 9.
following on from the world being effected by the fall, what happens now is chance and natural fallout, as you also suggested.
however in the OT just about every event is attributable to God. job says for example "..shall we receive good at the hand of the Lord and not evil also..." and the narrative indicates that though satan brought the calamities, it was permitted by God.
I realize that this may raise more questions, and I don't pretend to know the complete answer. but this is enough for now .

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 11:35 AM

Donuel says: They say it isn't possible to hold two contrary thoughts in your mind at the same time.

I dunno. I do it all the time. When I make a decision, I am still aware of the many good points of the path I did not take. When I take a stand on something, I am almost always aware that there are other ways of looking at the matter. Still, I have to make a choice - but if it's a choice worth thinking about, I know that I will have some regrets and doubts about the decision I made. Sure, there are some "no brainer" decisions in life - but in those cases, only the brainless would choose the alternative.

And as somebody who seriously believes in God, I am constantly aware of the real possibility that there might not be a God. Doubt is healthy, I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:28 AM

Like Joe, I am "not so sure that I would recommend that anyone practice a religion", but I can recommend everyone to explore her or his identity, in the sense of my (weaker and more abstract) notion of religion. Those who feel obliged to cut off their own roots completely cannot possibly be successful with that; a personality can never be based solely on some verbal doctrine, such as science, codified ethics, or any sort of scripture or ideology. The residual root fragments will sprawl uncontrolled, often causing the person to feel miserable. Even intelligent people may well end up being worse oppressed than previously.

Sharing a religious context ("a religion") should not exclude criticizing each other's ideas and practices. Conflicts are inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:06 AM

Joe,
your education including four years in the seminary you say has certainly not constricted your thinking. In other words you did not grow narrow of mind but actually feel you have broadened an open mind because of that particular nurturing education.

What do you think of the idea that focusing the mind over time in a particular discipline or at least refining your thinking is still to the exclusion of something/anything contrary.

They say it isn't possible to hold two contrary thoughts in your mind at the same time.

Not meant as a trap question or a conundrum, I am just saying that you really can not know if you would have equated strident atheists and literal fundamentalists if not for your religious education.

Still for some of the very reasons you cite I consider myself a poetic or spiritual atheist and not a linear one size fits all strident person.

It has been said that having experienced a spectrum of religions or meaningful myths and aphorisms the experience of epiphany would be more dilute than if one had experienced and focused on only one religion. I would naturally disagree. But then again, how could I really know having only experienced only one side of the "equation".


Perhaps the undercurrent of my remarks relates to an incident where you did react in a very linear fashion towards me. No offense was taken, since I knew it was a misunderstanding, besides I can see how separating my humorous remarks from hard rhetoric can be a near impossible task. Since the joke is already in my head by the time the words hits the page, I might mistakenly only write down the punch line.

I proof read now and am more attentive to not bruising any kind souls even by accident, but still they walk right into the road without looking and BAM they get rear ended by a metaphor d




Like not answering the rhetorical question, wasn't it refreshing that no one actually said that Christianity is the best religion hands down... like TV evangelists would?
It is interesting that no one was willing to be that fundamentalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:54 AM

Gee, thanks Joe. No fear of that at this time of day; tried it in middle age, and as my dearest late wife put it, it didn't 'take'! You are one of the good guys too BTW. So Keep the Faith now...

~ 〠 ☺·M·☺ 〠 ~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:43 AM

MtheGM, the idea of a deity who writes the script for whatever happens, just doesn't work. I suppose there are some who see it that way, but through the millennia, the main stream of religious thinking has not taken that simplistic approach. In general, religious thinkers define God as ineffable, and say that any attempt to define God is bound to fall short. The Orthodox define God by oxymorons. The Western Church has some - trinity, virgin birth, transcendent yet immanent, etc. The idea is that God is known by experience, not by observation or indoctrination. Yeah, I've had that sort of experience at times, and it's good. It's not a shoutin' jumpin' hallelujah! sort of thing for me - it's more like a passing moment of absolute serenity.

All I can say is that I've lived my life practicing a religious creed and steeped in a religious tradition, and it works for me. I'm quite certain it does not restrict my thinking in any way. For me, it makes me consider things more deeply and to consider alternatives and to take chances - although I concede that it doesn't work that way for many people. And even though it works very well for me, I'm not so sure that I would recommend that anyone practice a religion. That's something they have to choose for themselves.

I kinda like you the way you are, Mike. Don't go religious on me, now. ;-)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:59 PM

How to sure fire no buts about it, meet god.

If you are the kind of person who would like god to answer your question, if you need god to be within you so that you and god merge in an active and intelligent co-entity capable of doing gods work with your own hands, if you need god to be available to you within an hour...

I can guarantee that you will have that experience.

step 1.    make a comfortable area for yourself.
step 2.    ask yourself what question you would like to have answered and write it down.
step 3.    swallow 3 fresh Amazonia Cubensis psilocybe or one large 4 inch mushroom. Legally available by spores worldwide. 40 day waiting period to grow (not legal in US)
step 4.    Be watchful for an answer that make come in the form of free floating graphic design, writing or other means of which you may not yet be familiar.
step 5.    Allow eye closure to present pictured scenarios that will present themselves to you at the beginning in amazing symmetry and brilliance.
step 6.    Celebrate and enjoy the clear eyed joy of your communion with god for over 4 hours.


I practiced many religions communally and have learned the wisdom of their methods and even have had marvelous revelations and enlightenment however for a sure fire religious experience in a receptive mind set, Amazonia is far more profound and instructive than any other drug including LSD ecstasy etc..
Other psilocybin mushrooms including the philosopher's stone are party favors in comparison.

Symbolic communication in shapes is not uncommon. In answer to the question in 1990 of what new energy source will soon emerge, the answer was a triangle in a circle floating in mid air. Translation atomic wt. 1 +atomic wt.3 = Hydrogen and Lithium=Lithium Hydride.

Remember to take your questions seriously and happy finding to you, its the best one by far.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

hi joe, its very late and I don't think I should attempt answer now.
also, it is unclear to me wether Claire has been told this or she blames God for her condition.
if you are ok with telling us, that would be helpful,but of course we don't want to intrude uninvited.   blessings pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

Human is a large word, whereof conscious invention by individuals is only a small part. Most of what we are, comes from our ancestors and from the whole history of our cultures, in a way that cannot be traced to single willful acts of anybody such as authors/editors of mythology. If that is not "the Word of God", or the Holy Spirit, what else?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:12 PM

"If America leads a blessed life, then why did God put all of our oil under people who hate us?"
― Jon Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:20 PM

You may call them fairy stories, Dave. I call them sacred myths that embody the ideals that religious people seek. Literalists cannot understand or respect myth. This is what strident atheists and religious fundamentalists have in common - they have no sense of poetry and cannot see beyond the literal interpretation of things, and they cannot respect ideas other than their own.

Just a thought - but surely the literalists are the ones who seek these elusive religious ideals in Myths and 'Fairy Stories' thus missing the point? Away from that sort of literalism, Myths operate on a level more akin to poetry in the sense of ostranenie that a more literary approach reveals. I would argue such an approach is more respectful to the material of myth / fairy story which becomes a window to ideas far greater than our own - and far greater than anything 'religious' as such. Religious thinking is 'literalism' that holds (say) the creation found in Genesis to be 'true' / 'metaphorical' in an actual sense rather than just a story. The literalist / religious person (fundamentalist or otherwise) believes it to be the Word of God, thus missing the true beauty of the thing which is entirely human.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
― Jon Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

In my view, it is a mistake to ask religion to explain anything in the physical world. Also, the traditional attributes of God, including his "existence", are not applicable in terms of physics.

Although I am not a friend of formulations like "music is my religion", it seems to me that Claire has grasped the essence of religion more precisely than she may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:55 AM

Joe ~~ If God, however one conceives of such an entity (if one does), cannot control "natural factors" and their "logical consequence" ~~ then what is he/it FOR, please? Whence came those "natural factors"?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:24 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:07 AM

Claire, have you heard religious people say that it was God that put you in a wheelchair? I would say your physical condition put you there, and your physical condition is the result of a number of natural factors - logical consequence of a number of events.
Pete, you're a conservative Christian - how would you answer this question?

And Pete, I usually try to avoid arguing with people who "take the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy." If asked directly, I say I cannot accept biblical fundamentalism. It is directly contrary to what I was taught in eight years of seminary, and in four decades of study after that. But if that's what people believe and they're not trying to force that on me or on my kids in school, then I see no reason to argue with it. People believe, what they believe - and for the most part, I think they should be allowed to do so - and respected for who they are, not what they believe. I disagree with your beliefs, but respect you because I think you are an honest, decent, gentle, fair-minded person. Same with Ake.

Can't say the same for the people here who are always in "attack" mode. I have no respect for that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Claire M
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:50 AM

Hiya,

Music can, & does do all that for me. Does a much better job, too.

I love to hear an ole blues man singing about how he done gone over, & how Jesus gone make up his dying bed. It was & is one of the greatest joys of my life, & when I'm carried to my own bury'n ground [walk me along, carry me along] I want lots played; but as much as I love it it doesn't make me believe in any of the sentiment behind it. I wish I did, but you can't make yourself believe it.

Why would I want anything to do w/ someone who chose to put me in a wheelchair ??

§

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:30 AM

Whoever strives for wisdom (what the OP seems to mean by "enlightenment") should study thoroughly and critically whatever ideas mankind has produced - starting with the ones that were most influential on one's native culture. We can learn from such ideas and their historical and sociological contexts no matter to what extent we approve of them. In other words, we study mankind as such.

Religion is a different thing from wisdom, though somewhat related. There is no such thing as a best, good, bad, or worst religion (as opposed to theology or religious teaching). Your religion is your identity, rooted in the history of your cultural context, so you normally have no choice at all. Rather, some people can be said to have more religion than others.

Religious teachings are attempts to verbalize religion, necessarily inadequate. The larger part of religion is non-verbal, encoded in rituals and everyday customs. For children, the first important question is "Who are we?", then comes "Who am I, and how can I interact with this community?", and only third, and latest, comes "What is the world like?" For each of these questions we have distinct languages - since they use the same words, they sometimes seem to conflict. We must remind ourselves and others from time to time that religion is not meant to tell us anything about the objective world.

Like all aspects of human life, religion is being hijacked to increase some persons' own ego, power, wealth, etc. This means that even the most righteous religious leaders cannot always be trusted to say, or even know, the truth about the very religion they represent. If you asked Bill Gates about the nature of computing and software, you would not expect an unbiased answer either, and you would not condemn all computing because of his unsatisfactory answers.

The relation between religion and doing good is much more complex than reflected in verbal teachings. In particular, it is absolutely wrong to believe that religion was invented to make simple people altruistic and obedient.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:54 AM

Any one whose followers are enjoined to mind their own sodding business, and let others get on with theirs.

In other words, it doesn't exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:18 AM

Now, the historical information in the Bible starts getting more accurate after the reign of David, although much of the story of David and Solomon seems to be in the language of myth, not history. It goes off into myth again in the stories of Elijah and Elisha. And of course, the stories of Jonah and Job are clearly fictional - with elements of folktales. Jonah and Job are both meant to teach a lesson, not teach history.

Now, don't think it's only religious fundamentalists I abhor - I have similar disdain for antireligious fundamentalists, who interpret the Bible and other sacred writings with the same literalism - and then condemn these sacred writings as absurd. That sort of "I'm the only one who's right" rigidity is poison.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:28 AM

That's more like it. Attaboy!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:25 AM

Well, Pete, I think that the rigid, combative literalism of many biblical fundamentalists of the current day, is just wrong. Trying to prove scientific or historical information from the Bible is foolhardy.

I do not believe that the Bible or the Qur'an or other sacred writings were intended to be taken as literally as modern fundamentalists take them. Many even ignore the context of what they read, and try to prove things with single, out-of-context verses. They lose sight of the spiritual impact and importance of these sacred writings, because they're too bound up trying to use the Bible to disprove science and history.

On the other hand, I do think that some people overly intellectualize religious belief, to the point where non-intellectuals can feel uncomfortable. When I teach Bible study, I ask people to read large passages, at least half a page, and then think about how the passage affects them - without intellectualizing the thing.

And yeah, I think that "someone [who] takes the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy," has been misled. Their rigidity makes a laughingstock of the Bible, and of religious belief in general. I wish I could be more generous, but I truly believe that fundamentalism is wrong. I think that the Bible was written within a historical context, but it is not intended to teach science or history. There are ways to be conservative without buying into the rigid extremes of the fundamentalists - but rigid biblical literalism, is just wrong. It's an embarrassment to Christianity, as Islamic fundamentalism is an embarrassment to Islam.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:44 PM

musket-- concept of dinosaurs - what does that mean.
I have not noticed anyone having trouble with the FACT of dinos, though there are lots of people believing they lived millions of yrs ago, despite evidence that they were much more recent.

joe- just because someone takes the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy hardly means they are unthinking. hopefully that was just a gross generalization, and not the bigotry it at first appears.
and on the subject of charitable giving, I hear that fundamentalists give more than liberals, and not to just church based causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: selby
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:51 PM

Seems to me the most popular religion is the religion of ME, you see it on the roads, in the supermarket, its around everywhere and it seems to work for lots of people.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:56 PM

I remember this post from 13 years ago

Back then I posted
my dogs better than your dog
my dogs better than yours
my dogs better cuz he won't eat kENNEL RATION
my dogs better than yours.



I had family members who went to school for religious studies.
I instead experienc3ed and participated in Christianity, Judaism, Zen Buddhism, Nichren sho shu Buddhism, Mystical Islam "Gurdjeiff", Bahai,
Hinduism. I read about many others like Casteneda and the Power of Myth collection but experiencing the various religions taught me more about the people and real life alterations religions actually cause.

And the winner is...

you.


if you experience as many or more as I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:23 PM

Mr Happy said: "For those seeking enlightenment, which of the many belief systems in the world do you think is the best?"

Pretty much there were no respondents to this thread who were interested in answering the question postulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

Border Terrier
Me
Me
Whatever I want it to be.

Do I get the prize?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:09 PM

While we're at it can we decide what the best breed of dog is? An who's the best singer and guitar player? And what is folk music anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:46 AM

Gee, that got a lot of responses. It's hard to figure where to begin. Mr. Happy, you have properly given one definition of myth. Joseph Campbell and others define it as a sacred (fictional) story meant to convey a philosophical insight.

Here's another definition from Merriam-Webster: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

Musket says: You know yourself, your use of Scripture to enrich and guide is increasingly a smaller part of religious expression. Most people taken in by religion tend to believe.

Well, Musket, I have no doubt that fundamentalist religion is phenomenally popular, because it appeals to people who are reluctant to think for themselves. I think, though, that the fundamentalists appear more widespread than they actually are, because they spend a lot of money on media. Philosophical believers tend to spend their money on feeding the poor.

And don't try to blame ME for the follies of fundamentalism. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.

MtheGM, modern scripture scholars say the Pentateuch (Torah, five books of Moses), including Genesis, were written and rewritten over a period of over five hundred years, building on traditional creation myths and expanding beyond that. I'd go back to Joseph Campbell again - would he say that ancient peoples held their sacred stories with the same sort of mindless literalism common in fundamentalist churches nowadays?

Back to you, Musket: There seems to be a difference between having belief and believing. You seem to think everybody can make the distinction. I have news for you. At least two people on this thread would read Genesis as literal history and one struggles with the concept of dinosaurs.
I would agree that religious belief may require a sense of poetry but by that standard most believers would fail the test. I do note that children and vulnerable adults seem to be the main recruitment target of most cults.
Frankly, I have huge issues with your inferring that life without faith is lacking something. I also need to think through whether you are demonstrating capability when it comes to defining fundamentalists and "strident" atheists.

Musket, I think you're putting words in my mouth there. I think you're missing something if you dismiss all religious beliefs and practices as foolishness. I am not a Muslim, but I have found much in Islam that I can learn from. But if I dismiss Islam altogether as violent fundamentalism, I dismiss all the wonderful things that have been accomplished by Muslim scholars through the ages.
And even fundamentalist Christians have their value, as long as they're not the kind who use their fundamentalism as a support for their bigotry.
And no, I don't think everybody can make distinctions, in whatever matter is before them. Sadly, that ability seems to be becoming increasingly rare.

Dave Hanson says: If I ask a christian if god is all powerful, kind and full of mercy, why did he let a Bradford mother starve her child to death and leave his body in his cot for several years, they trot out the same old answers. Dave, that's looking at God as some sort of Master Puppeteer that controls whatever happens in life. You know from your own experience that's not the way life works - shit happens. Most things happen by coincidence or by logical consequence. How we respond to what happens, is what makes the difference.
Most ancient perspectives define God as ineffable, undefinable. But if I were to attempt a definition, I would say that God is "That Who Is Beyond, and That Who Is Within" - I think that's a definition that is consistent with the mainstream traditions of most major religious denominations. Not a cut-and-dried answer, I'll agree - but it's something to ponder. And people have pondered over that for millennia.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Kit Griffiths
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:23 AM

Mine

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:00 AM

"Buddha wasn't a Christian but
Jesus would have made a good Buddhist"... Ray Wylie Hubbard

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM

Myth: A commonly-held but false belief, a common misconception; a fictitious or imaginary person or thing; a popular conception about a real person or event which exaggerates or idealizes reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:04 AM

I'm just a non believer Joe, I have a genuine love of traditional song, particularly English folk song, does this not count as poetry ?

I have tried several times to engage devout christians in discussions, but eventually they always trot out the same responses, ie. we don't understand God, he doesn't tell us his reasons, God works in mysterious
ways, God gave us free will etc.
If I ask a christian if god is all powerful, kind and full of mercy, why did he let a Bradford mother starve her child to death and leave his body in his cot for several years, they trot out the same old answers.

I constantly read news stories about child abuse [ sore point there for catholics ] child trafficking, lots of recent child murders, I can't rationalise these things with there being a god who is powerful enough to prevent these evil things with a wave of his hand........but doesn't.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:56 AM

I don't think "enlightenment" is the goal for most religions. For those seeking "enlightenment" I guess Zen Buddhism or some other non-typical spiritual system involving working at particular practises dedicated to achieving enlightenment would be the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:07 AM

Oh, come, Joe: you know peerfectly well that Genesis was intended to be taken literally by Moses or whoever when he wrote it. Song Of Solomon, now -- what is that erotic love poem doing there anyhow? The K Jas Bible commentary about its being all about Christ's love for His Church is clearly nonsensical, unless they thought that Solomon (or whoever*) had the power of an 800+ year precise prophecy. And how did that nice long agnostic document Ecclesiastes ever infiltrate?

~M~

*The first verse, "The Song of Songs which is Solomon's", could equally translate from the Hebrew as "The Song of Songs which is about Solomon"; thus making no actual authorial claim ~~

שיר השירים אשר לשלומה

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 01:49 AM

But Joe. Joe. Joe.

You know yourself, your use of Scripture to enrich and guide is increasingly a smaller part of religious expression. Most people taken in by religion tend to believe.

There seems to be a difference between having belief and believing. You seem to think everybody can make the distinction. I have news for you. At least two people on this thread would read Genesis as literal history and one struggles with the concept of dinosaurs.

I would agree that religious belief may require a sense of poetry but by that standard most believers would fail the test. I do note that children and vulnerable adults seem to be the main recruitment target of most cults.

Frankly, I have huge issues with your inferring that life without faith is lacking something. I also need to think through whether you are demonstrating capability when it comes to defining fundamentalists and "strident" atheists.

The vast majority of people, including those who lazily call themselves Christians through a sense of tradition rather than faith don't give a rat's arse unless and until religion affects them or decisions about them.

Calling such people atheists is labelling apathy and irrelevance as being some dark force setting itself up as an alternative to religion.

I don't look for alternatives to stamp collecting and I don't look for alternatives to religion yet it is obvious religious bodies are scared of being dismissed as irrelevant even more than they are of competing cults.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 01:25 AM

I meant what I said, Steve Shaw. Religious faith requires a sense of poetry - otherwise, believers fall into the absurdities of fundamentalism. Take the creation story from Genesis. I admit that some people take it literally, but I don't think the writers wrote for them. If you look at it from a poetic viewpoint, it's an expression of wonder and awe at the world that surrounds us, seeing that world as a precious gift.

The Book of Isaiah is all poetry, and the works of many of the other prophets make sense only if one reads them with an eye for poetry. And the Song of Solomon, and the Book of Revelation. And the Holy Qur'an - lots and lots of poetry. The Bhagavad Gita? Same thing.

But I have found that strident atheists and religious fundamentalists can be interchangeable. They see things as absolutes. When the position they once held falls through, they grab onto the exact opposite with equal enthusiasm. And they cannot concede the validity of any perspectives other than their own.

-Joe Offer-