BS: Lost sub

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 23 - 01:27 PM

Enough time has passed that the post mortem reports are underway and quotes from engineers are appearing. The Maverick Design Choices That May Have Doomed Titan

Federal investigators say it could take them up to 18 months to determine why Titan imploded, killing its five passengers. But engineers interviewed by The New York Times point out possible weak points in the sub’s design. . . . What follows is a comparison of Titan’s design with a standard vehicle that, in typical fashion, relies on conservative engineering rules that have proven themselves over many decades. Teams of investigators are now examining such differences in trying to understand why Titan imploded during its dive to the Titanic wreckage.

It includes an illustration of what can happen when dissimilar materials are glued together.

There's nothing new here, just confirmation of some of the main theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 23 - 12:42 PM

You wouldn't want the details regarding a plane crash with hundreds on board.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 23 - 12:24 PM

This is a surprise; they managed to retrieve the hull and there may be human remains in the debris.

Presumed human remains recovered from within Titan wreckage, US Coast Guard says
Pieces of mangled craft brought ashore in Newfoundland, Canada, after five killed on voyage to Titanic wreck

This is when it begins to feel like "disaster porn." It's enough to know there might be remains, I can live without getting clinical about what they find.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jun 23 - 09:18 PM

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 23 - 07:25 PM

I suspect that the disappearance of MH370 in 2014 with over 200 passengers may not be such a mystery to those who have equipment which can trace and monitor aircraft going 'silent'. But they do not want to reveal HOW they know.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Jun 23 - 12:15 PM

> And why couldn't the Navy tell they heard it implode?

The microphone field is intended to listen for Russian submarines: had the information been released immediately, it's possible someone might have been able to work out where the microphones are. My guess is that it took time enough for someone to work out that merely revealing that this capability exists didn't compromise US security, plus time for any potentially-compromising information to decay to uselessness (note also how *little* information they released), plus declassification paperwork propagation delay.

We're lucky we heard about it so soon. It took years before the US military declassified their observations of astronomical gamma-ray bursts: the satellites which detected the phenomenon were intended to look for nuclear detonations. Declassification might well have had to wait until said satellites were superseded.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 07:43 PM

"The death of one person is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic." Attributed to Josef Stalin.

I think the juxtaposition of the two sad and horrible events is something to wonder at. We had heard of the ship sinking and the loss of unnamed and possibly unknown hundreds of unofficial migrants. Even this is not an isolated incident. There is great misery in the world and has been for some time. Whether trekking through the Darien Gap with plastic gallon jugs of water, or putting to sea at the mercy of vicious smugglers, there doesn't seem to be enough on the reception side of the world to prompt executive action.

Meanwhile, the implosion of the Titan has given us the small scale, individualistic stories of death as first a mystery, then a detective story, and at present a cautionary tale that can enrapture media and techophile alike.

They go together because we can make the connection that everyone on the sunken migrant vessel had an individual story, had relatives, had guides of one kind or another, and not necessarily beneficent. There were men and women who wanted to give themselves a good experience, and make life better for their children. Here explorers and refugess alike experienced disaster at sea. And in both cases the story is not over for the survivors who learn that there was much they didn't know and only now are learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 04:57 PM

You have me wondering what disaster porn is and why the advice to not look.
Herculaneum?
Hiroshima?
Holocaust?

I get it when it is a gruesome terrorist act,

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 04:42 PM

In that Jalopnik article I listened to the talk by the engineer twice, it was riveting. The stuff from David Pogue is amazing for hindsight. (I met Pogue years ago when he was on our campus for a talk, and I participated in a book he collected, as a lark, all based upon topics he threw out on Twitter. Back when Twitter was an interesting and innocent place.) He's a talented interviewer and charming guest who has focused on high tech (after he stopped fixing Stephen Sondheim's computer and working in musical theater on Broadway).

It should be fair warning to anyone else with a mind to building these submersible vessels with a commercial goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Charmion
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 02:10 PM

Stilly, that’s disaster porn.

Avert your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 01:18 PM

And in this last story, he prints the waiver/release of liability that they had to sign (scroll down).

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 12:50 PM

Story by David Pogue from CBS last year A visit to RMS Titanic on CBS Sunday Morning.

He read part of the waiver, but it sounds like they were covering their asses. It might not hold up with suits after the implosion. So much off-the-shelf stuff cobbled together. Red flags all over the place. Stockton Rush talked a good talk with lots of buzzwords.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 11:56 AM

The Titan Submersible Was Designed And Built Even Worse Than You Think

From Jalopnik.com

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush’s ability to convince people his sub was safe was disarming, even “predatory” as a friend of Titan victim Paul-Henri Nargeolet told Insider. But all the buzzwords in the world couldn’t cover some basic fatal design flaws. Let’s start with one of the most fundamental; its shape. According to the Associated Press:

While OceanGate Expeditions, which owned and operated the craft, touted the Titan’s roomier cylinder-shaped cabin made of a carbon-fiber, industry experts say it was a departure from the sphere-shaped cabins made of titanium used by most submersibles.

A sphere is a “perfect shape” because water pressure is exerted equally on all areas, said Chris Roman, a professor at the University of Rhode Island’s Graduate School of Oceanography.

The 22-foot long (6.7-meter long), 23,000-pound (10,432-kilogram) Titan’s larger internal volume — while still cramped with a maximum of five seated people — meant it was subjected to more external pressure.?

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

The 19-year-old had a Rubik's Cube with him, wanting to set some kind of deep water record for transporting or working the cube. Some fool is going to go looking for that thing trapped in the debris field. Unless it went free of everything - the interwebs tell me that they float.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jun 23 - 09:49 AM

And why couldn't the Navy tell they heard it implode?

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 23 - 04:16 AM

My feelings exactly, except for that little word "illegal." I'm not clear what's illegal about being on a boat in the middle of the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jun 23 - 03:19 AM

My thoughts are with the poor bereaved families, especially of the 19 year-old lad. People will always seek adventures, and being rich doesn't mean one deserves to die while seeking them. In one way, I too was relieved that the sub imploded almost instantly, sparing the men from hours of diminishing oxygen and desperate claustrophobic panic. I imagine it will be impossible to retrieve any remains for the families to grieve over.
I also feel great sadness at the deaths of any passengers on ships or boats who drown, including trafficked illegal immigrants.
I actually hate the sea and am frightened of it, despite being able to swim well. 'The Cruel Sea' just about describes my feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 10:10 PM

Five dead because they wanted to experience a "thrill" by visiting an internationally recognized underwater cemetery caused by a disaster 109 years ago. Sorry, but they know the chances they took by doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 02:35 PM

Immigrants drowning in Europe does not get the attention of a tic tok story of a Heisenberg sub. Carbon fiber is apparently inferior to titanium.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 01:23 PM

As my very perceptive wife said earlier, this adds another 5 lives to the tragedy that wa the Titanic :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 11:51 AM

This news piece from NBC on Wednesday:

A tale of two disasters: Missing Titanic sub captivates the world days after deadly migrant shipwreck
A fishing boat crowded with migrants traveling from Libya to Italy sank in Greek waters last week. While hundreds are still missing and feared dead, it has garnered far less attention and resources than the Titan rescue efforts for five people.

As rescuers raced to find a handful of wealthy people and explorers who vanished after launching a mission to survey the Titanic, another disaster at sea that's feared to have left hundreds of people dead has been swept from the spotlight.

Last week's sinking of a fishing boat crowded with migrants trying to get from Libya to Italy sparked arrests, violent protests and questions about authorities’ failure to act or find a long-term solution to the issue. But many human rights advocates are frustrated that the world seems to have already moved on and that the resources and media attention being dedicated to the Titan rescue efforts far outweigh those for the sunken migrant ship.

“It’s a horrifying and disgusting contrast,” Judith Sunderland, associate director for Human Rights Watch’s Europe and Central Asia division, said in a telephone interview, reflecting on the apparent disparities in resources and media attention on the two crises.

“The willingness to allow certain people to die while every effort is made to save others ... it’s a, you know, really dark reflection on humanity,” she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 11:46 AM

"Titanic" director James Cameron sees "terrible irony" as OceanGate also got "warnings that were ignored"

"We now have another wreck that is based on, unfortunately, the same principles of not heeding warnings," he said, calling it a "terrible irony."

Sums it up well. The Titanic itself is a cautionary tale.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 09:22 AM

And guess who pays? The US taxpayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 05:52 AM

'True explorers’: tributes paid to men killed in ‘catastrophic implosion’ of Titan sub

Families, friends and colleagues remember Stockton Rush, Hamish Harding, Shahzada and Suleman Dawood and Paul-Henri Nargeolet

The headline of quite a long piece in today's Guardian. Paying "tributes" to five "true explorers" - or did I hear someone say that it was just wealth tourism?   Why would you pay tributes to five men who embarked on a personal adventure that most of us could only dream about, just because they struck bad luck? I'm sorry they died, but I think I may be more sorry for the aforementioned twelve thousand who felt that they didn't have a choice...

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 05:36 AM

"In 2022, it was estimated that 2,062 migrants died while crossings the Mediterranean Sea. However, the accurate number of deaths recorded in the Mediterranean Sea cannot ascertained. Between 2014 and 2018, for instance, about 12 thousand people who drowned were never found." [source: statista.com]

Twelve thousand desperate people, each with a story that will almost certainly never be told. We're hearing plenty about the five people who voluntarily boarded that submarine, each at a cost that would have enabled most of us to retire in luxury. As Maggie and Doug have intimated, this should tell us a lot about how we scrutinise the news we're fed with and get us thinking about how we could find out about the real world in a more rounded and objective way.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jun 23 - 05:07 AM

It's not just the billionaire passengers that have brought this story to great attention. They weren't visiting any old wreck - they were visiting the Titanic. The sinking of the Titanic has created its own mystique which attracts headlines to anything associated with it.

Added to that, for a day or two, there was the possibility (remote, admittedly) of an 'International Rescue' style mission to bring the sub to the surface with the clock ticking down on the oxygen supply.

The newspapers and television will print and report anything that gets them more readers and listeners.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 23 - 09:56 PM

The amount of attention that news stories get is, I fear, directly proportional to skin color. The media here (in the US) doesn't offer up as much world news, preferring to focus on White People News. I just scrolled through the machine-generated news lists on Google News - way way down the page was this from yesterday:

Gang slaughtered 46 women at Honduran prison with machetes, guns and flammable liquid, official says

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (AP) — Gang members in a women’s prison in Honduras slaughtered 46 other women inmates by spraying them with gunfire, hacking them with machetes and then locking survivors in their cells and dousing them with flammable liquid, an official said Wednesday.

The carnage in Tuesday’s riot was the worst atrocity at a women’s prison in recent memory, something President Xiomara Castro called “monstrous.”

Relatives said inmates at the facility had been threatened for weeks by members of the notorious Barrio 18 gang.

Chillingly, the gang members were able to arm themselves with prohibited weapons, brush past guards and attack; they even carried locks to shut their victims inside, apparently to burn them to death. The intensity of the fire left the walls of the cells blackened and beds reduced to twisted heaps of metal.

And right next to it, was this:

Greek authorities rescue 145 migrants who were found stranded on a river islet on the Turkish border

THESSALONIKI, Greece (AP) — Greek authorities said they rescued 145 migrants found stranded Thursday on an islet on the river that runs along the northeastern land border with Turkey.

Police said that the 70 men, 45 women and 30 children were all in good health and identified as Syrians or Kurds. Greek authorities launched the rescue after being alerted to the migrants' presence by a nongovernmental organization.

The Evros River — Meric in Turkish — is a key crossing point for migrants coming through Turkey to seek a better life in the European Union.

It's quite common for smuggling gangs to dump migrants on islets mid-river and flee, to avoid arrest by Greek authorities, and confusion over the precise location and ownership of the islets can lead to delays in their evacuation.

Thousands of people also try to enter Greece by sea. On June 14, a battered fishing trawler carrying up to 750 people sank far off southwestern Greece, with only 104 survivors.

I still haven't reached an account of that shipwreck other than the brief mention in the above article, though I have been listening to accounts of how the ship was probably tipped over by the Greek Coast Guard using a rope to try to tow the boat.

The story of new settlements in Palestinian territory was a bit of a blip (the Israeli government are such bad actors in the area). I still haven't come across a multi-faceted account of the shipwreck.

So you're right, the news that gets spoonfed to many of us is incredibly biased. Reading off-shore news helps round out knowledge of world events.

Subject: RE: BS: Lost sub
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 23 - 07:58 PM

There's a piece in the Guardian I've just read that brilliantly sums up my feelings:

The Greek shipwreck was a horrific tragedy. Yet it didn’t get the attention of the Titanic story
Arwa Mahdawi

From that piece:

"Here’s the thing: unless I’ve severely underestimated the number of billionaires with a death wish, I think this is the last story we’re going to see about obscenely rich people going missing in a submersible for quite a while. But I’m afraid I can almost guarantee we’re going to see plenty more stories about ships carrying migrants capsizing.

If anything good can come of these two tragedies, I hope it’s that it makes more people rethink how we value human lives. I hope it makes it uncomfortably clear that, in the eyes of the media and policymakers, one missing billionaire is seemingly more important than hundreds of missing migrants."

Subject: BS: Lost sub
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 23 - 07:37 PM

I have very mixed feelings about this. First, the loss of the five people took up the first ten minutes of BBC News tonight. The terrible loss of life in the Med after the sinking of the refugee boat got a couple of minutes, several topics down.

We've spent three days agonising about five people gradually running out of oxygen. In the end, that wasn't the case, and it seems that they died instantly last Sunday. I hate to say it, but that came as a relief. I don't care that they were billionaires who could easily afford a quarter of a million quid in order to indulge their need for a thrill. You don't deserve to die for that, whatever we think about that there could have been a far better use of their loose money. It takes a lot for justifying the deaths of people, billionaires or not.

Anyway, it's all very sad. I don't care a jot about the safety or otherwise of these crafts. It's of no interest to me at all. I just wish that we could do a bit more of the human thing over those refugees in small boats.