Tune Req: Mystery Reels

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 02:42 AM

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 04:21 PM

O 'Neill's version is in G. The G version was long better known as the Galbally farmer and had various sets of words associated with it. These days a lot of younger musicians seem to prefer the name Thanjs god we're surrounded by water, after the song Dominic Behan set to the tune.
The Rakes of Kildare is more commonly known as an Am tune (Ador, if you prefer), certainly outside Ireland where folkies still follow the Dave Swarbrick version.

I can't help thinking this thread is moving in all sorts of increasingly confused directions.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Rakes of Kildare
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 02:05 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU8A3TdBEb8

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 04:53 PM

I think the mystery tunes have been identified and one thing I have now learned is that there are two different tunes named The Rakes of Kildare. I didn't know that.

Mysteries solved! Well done everyone!

And the publisher of my copy of O'Neill's could be David Michael Collins because the copyright symbol is next to his name on the next page after the title page, but it could be Shanachie Records (at the same address in The Bronx, NY) because there is a note on the same page about further information available from them on Irish and Celtic music. (I should refer this book to the Librarian training institutes as a publishing puzzle to be solved by the trainees. LOL)

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Petet Laban
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 06:04 AM

Helen, thanks. I usually don't engage with dick miles' desire to start an argument and I have said my piece here, making the argument and he can stew on it from here on.

The thread was resolved some time back finding a name for one and a notation for the other tune on the original query. I indulged in some diversion, allowing me to post some, perhaps useful, further information but it had run its course by the time the usual dick barged in to start an argument based on nothing but his own ineptitude and misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 05:38 AM

And my suggestion to you, The Sandman, is to start a separate thread on the topic you want to discuss instead of taking this thread on a detour from its originally intended topic.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 05:33 AM

Peter, my diplomatic suggestion is to not engage in this exchange of views. It will probably only lead you down the rabbit hole.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 05:13 AM

This is not about misremembering names. That's only a distraction tactic.

There are rakes of similar transitions where major tunes have minor/modal versions that coexist under either the same or different names, O'Neill's G version of the Cliffs of Moher happily coexists with various other versions, the Steampacket goes minor and becomes Brendan McMahon's. That sort of thing. Musicians making the most of the same basic melodic material. Also on this thread, Junior Crehan turning existing tunes, or 'developing' if you like, into 'compositions' by using his own creativity.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 04:18 AM

Yes it is generally known as Thank god, we are surrounded by water.

The Rakes of Kildare in my experience is a different jig that appears to be harmonised initially in a minor, however this is also an example of not bothering too much about names, but more importantly trying to just learn the tune by listening.
You do not know what i am on about? 2 THINGS people also on occasions misrember names and
Music changes often when it is learned by ear and some tunes are played differently,and somtimes they evolve from the original, A case in point is the composed tune The Moving Cloud.
Communication is not made easier when there are 2 pipes on the hob and 2 munster buttermilks
It's not all that hard to grasp, really.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 03:49 AM

Which changes do you see illustrated here? O'Neill's version of the Rakes of Kildare is quite popular still, albeit under the title Thsnk god, we are surrounded by water. If you are trying to suggest it has been displaced by other versions I am afraid you are wrong.

Other than that I have no idea what you are on about.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 03:30 AM

dingle posts? yes of course you are right.
Music changes as illustrated in this thread and how tunes were played 100 years ago and how they are generally played today is also illustrated here, its not all that hard to grasp really

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 02:33 AM

Perhaps read the thread rather than respond to dingle posts, dick.

There was no mystery reel (and the tune Frankie Gavin recorded as the'Mystery reel' wasn't involved in any of this, just in case uou mistakely thought it was) but the OP did ask for identification two tunes, a hornpipe, which I duly identified, and a jig, named by the players as The Rakes of Kildare. Helen posted a link to a version of the latter, to which I responded (and pointed towards a notation of the tune in question)
It's not all that hard to grasp, really.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 01:29 AM

well fair comment Peter, my editon of the book has it starting in g major but the second part in a different mode, however it is a jig so hardly relevant to the Mystery Reel

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 02:49 PM

The original editions had their publisher and date of publication on the title page. However, many editions were printed after the muddle if the century, when copyright was no longer in play, by other publishers (notably Walton's) that had the original publisher and date removed.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 02:29 PM

It's frustrating for me, as an ex-librarian, that the book does not have the usual publication details on the next page after the title page. In most other books the original publication date, and the date of that specific edition would be stated but my book only shows that that edition was published in 1979. The front cover, which is the distinctive yellow cover, is a copy of the original cover and has a lot of detail on it but the date of publication is not shown there either.

I have owned my copy for at least 40 years. It is a great resource and I fully appreciate the work that O'Neill did in compiling all of those tunes.

Oh no! I just read the text on the back cover of the book and hidden in that lovely old font is the statement, "This collection was published in 1903, as a result of Capt Francis O'Neill and many traditional musicians attending the Chicago Music Club, circa (1890-1900)."

So the publication date was there all along, hiding in plain sight.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 10:52 AM

To follow on my previous post:


Paul de Grae's Sources of Francis O'Neill's tunes

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,PeterLaban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 07:52 AM

Paul de Grae has done great research into O"Neill's sources.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 07:41 AM

If O'Neill's really was from 1850 it would be twice as interesting and valuable.

Much of it, however (I don't know how much), is copied from earlier, lesser collections.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 07:03 AM

Don't worry, it's easy to misinterpreted 'O'Neill's 1850'.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 05:26 AM

I looked in the book and couldn't find any publication date or information. That will teach me to believe what I read on Wikipedia, I guess. :-(

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 04:23 AM

That depends entirely on which version you are looking at, dick. And the one Helen linked to above from O'Neill's is indeed in G major.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 04:20 AM

Rakes of kildare is not in g, its opening chord is a minor, or an A power chord
just because a tune has a key signature of one sharp it does not automatically follow it is in g major

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 04:12 AM

'Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine was published in O'Neill's Music of Ireland in 1850 in the Marches and Miscellaneous section.'

To avoid further confusion, O'Neill's Music of Ireland was published in 1903. The 1850 refers to the number of tunes included in the collection and is used as a shorthand to distinguish it from the later collection of dance music which had the subtitle '1000 gems'. So you have O"Neill's 1850 (MoI) and O'Neill's 1000 (DmoI).

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Aug 25 - 01:33 AM

That was me at https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=174229&messages=20#4226593

It doesn't solve the identity of the tune but it will give you the notes, if you need them.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 05:48 PM

GUEST, thanks.

I think it's different enough for its own title.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 05:38 PM

On The Irish Traditional Music Tune Index site the alternative titles for Stack of Rye are listed as:

"Stack of Rye, The / Stack of Rye / Junior Crehan's / Stack of Oats / The Clare Hornpipe / Gerry Egan's (also as fling, also in E) (1st in set The Four Stacks (Rye / Oats / Wheat / Barley) on KCrhn; 1st in set Two Flings by Junior Crehan on Hmmrs) (composed by Martin "Junior" Crehan)"

There is some useful information on that page. I haven't seen that site before. I'll bookmark it for personal future reference.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 04:55 PM

Helen, the moving around to tunes and versions that bear no resemblance,or relevance to the tunes put forward in original question perhaps?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 04:46 PM

The reason I thought of Lannigan's Ball is the last two bars of part A and part B but after I suggested it I knew that was the wrong tune.

And what, Guest Peter Laban, do you find increasingly confused on this discussion? Could you be more specific please?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 04:36 PM

And fwiw, the Corrs' tune is the third setting under Rakes of Kildare on thesession.org, if you need the notes.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 04:21 PM

O 'Neill's version is in G. The G version was long better known as the Galbally farmer and had various sets of words associated with it. These days a lot of younger musicians seem to prefer the name Thanjs god we're surrounded by water, after the song Dominic Behan set to the tune.
The Rakes of Kildare is more commonly known as an Am tune (Ador, if you prefer), certainly outside Ireland where folkies still follow the Dave Swarbrick version.

I can't help thinking this thread is moving in all sorts of increasingly confused directions.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 03:40 PM

The O'Neill's version of Rakes of Kildare is listed on this page of The Old Music Project.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 03:28 PM

I agree Lighter.

Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine was published in O'Neill's Music of Ireland in 1850 in the Marches and Miscellaneous section. The Old Music Project is an excellent site where all of the tunes in the book are available in four formats, i.e. music notation (Noteworthy Composer), ABC, sheet music or MIDI. I bought a copy of this excellent resource and have been using it for years.

I've linked to the alphabetical list of marches and Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine is tune number 1824, near the end of the book.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 08:15 AM

Jack, the "Hot Asphalt" tune sounds to me exactly like "Bonaparte/ Napoleon Crossing the Alps/ Rhine."

Sheet music of "...Crossing the Rhine" is advertised in the New York Evening Post in 1831. "...the Alps" is mentioned in the Detroit Free Press in 1837.

The title have become unfortunately interchangeable, so it's impossible to know which tune is meant.

"Bonaparte's March" and "Boney Over the Alps" were played in Maine in the 1840s. These Bonaparte tunes seem to have been extremely popular in the U.S. for decades.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 06:25 AM

The "Hot Asphalt" tune was first published in Glasgow in Kerr's Merry Melodies for the Violin (volume 1, p49) in 1880 simply titled "March" and mixed in with a bunch of Highland tunes. It's not Irish and has nothing to do with Bonaparte.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 05:46 AM

I listened to the jig again, I only heard a small bit yesterday. Not the Killaloe boat, There's more of the Rakes of Kildare in there but not quite enough to go by that name.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 05:26 AM

The Pogues - Hot Asphalt

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Aug 25 - 01:19 AM

To complement the classic Stack of Barkey/Stack of wheat set of Muchael Coleman's recording, Junior composed the Stack of Oats and the Stack of rye.


I don't think the jig is the Rakes of Kildare, by the way but I don't have an alternstive. It touches on the Killaloe boat ut isn't quite that either.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 09:45 PM

Thanks to all who commented~

"Egan's Favorite" is indeed "The Stack of Rye." (Now that I know it, I prefer Crehan's title):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq-lB6gquu8


And the Corrs' jig might well be "The Rakes of Kildare" or it might be just different enough to have another title. Or it may just be their version of it.

I agree it's not quite the usual form. I used to play "the "Rakes,"" but this time I couldn't recognize it !

Usually sounds like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU8A3TdBEb8

When "The Limerick Rake" is played as a jig, it sounds a lot like "The Rakes of Kildare." I believe Natalie MacMaster recorded it long ago, I think without a title.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 05:18 PM

Egan's isn't a reel obviously, it's a hornpipe. It's one of Junior Crehan's, the Stack of rye.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 04:35 PM

The Session: The Hot Ashpelt and a couple of notes refer to another tune or tunes called The Battle of Waterloo, or Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine or Bonaparte Crossing The Alps.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 04:23 PM

Egan's Favorite sounds to me like the song Hot Asphalt

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 04:23 PM

The Rakes of Kildare follows Spancil Hill (from their Wiki discography, though it sounds a little different from the one we play).

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 04:15 PM

Is it Lanigan's Ball on The Corrs video?

Subject: Tune Req: Mystery Reels
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 03:35 PM

Does anyone have dots for or know anything about "Egan's Faorite"?

The Irish Rovers pair it with "The Dawn" on their album "Gracehill Fair."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSDmTnv3w1k


Otherwise the Net has never heard of it.

Also, can anyone ID the jig played by the Corrs on the "Spancil Hill" track of their album "Home'?
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_03uW2Llm9U


People want to know.