BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 10:06 AM

I surf, email, phone, go to the toilet, drink coffee and a whole load of other non-business related stuff during works time. Conversely I send business emails, talk to my boss, work on reports, think about customers, travel to sites and a whole load of other business related stuff on my own time.

I don't know if one balances the other out - I have never measured it - but my feeling is that if my boss didn't think that the business was getting the better deal she would soon tell me!

Reminds me of the old joke.

Boss, to employee returning from lunch late, "Where have you been?"

Employee. "Having my hair cut"

Boss. "Have it cut on your own time, not mine!"

Employee. "It grows on works time, so I have it cut on works time."

Boss. "It doesn't all grow on works time"

Employee. "That's why I didn't have it all cut off!"

The moral - provided that there is a bit of give and take there should be no problems.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 12:25 AM

I find that when I've said something stupid, it's often best to just retract it and apologize instead of trying to defend it. Sometimes by defending it, you just dig yourself in deeper.

Likewise, when somebody else says something stupid, it's sometimes better to ignore it than to try to talk it out. Calling attention to it sometimes just provokes defensiveness (or counterattack) from the other person.

Notice I had to qualify every sentence so far in this message with "often" and "sometimes." Knowing when to apply these principles is a trick I haven't mastered yet.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 12:06 AM

How about this?

You were probably trying to reassure her that it was not a big issue, and, in using the word "ignore" you meant it in the sense that, given her obvious value to the company, her commitment, and level of achievement, that it was a minor issue, and you intended to convey that it was not necessary for her to overreact, rather than to literally suggest that she "ignore" her boss.

I worked for the government, then in public relations and advertising, so I have had to weasel out of many unfortunate word choices--well, not "weasel", lets say "constructively reinterpret"--

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:04 PM

M. Ted: OK, I admit your advice was better than mine. What was I thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Tiger
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:17 PM

Well said, M Ted.

But go home and do it on your own computer, and charge it back to the company. If you're so secure in your 'sales' position, it won't matter, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM

If you are in sales, and earning enough commission to stay there, especially if you're working on straight commission, he should be doing everything in his power(including bonuses, profit sharing, sales incentive programs, etc, etc) to make and keep you happy--including taking you and the others at your level out to lunch about once a month just to stay on good terms with you(and once a week wouldn't be a bad idea)--Most important, he would get rid of all that non-sales work that you are doing (even if he has to do it himself for a while) so that you can concentrate on what is most important to the company, which is selling--

I'll bet I know why he is bugging you, though, and he probably has the same problem that Jim's boss has--sales are off--most likely, if he is like most small employers, he doesn't have any real management expertise, and doesn't really know what to do about it--he wants you to do more selling, and thinks that you could, but aren't--

Now, I like Jim Dixon, and even defend ocassional surfing at work (yours, too) but when he tells you that you are right to ignore your boss, he is giving you the stupidest, wrongheadedest, most self-destructive advice that anyone can give an employee--YOU SHOULD NEVER IGNORE YOUR BOSS!!!

If your boss questions something that you are doing, you at least should sit and talk, so that you can explain the what and the why of what you are doing--and find out what the real problems are, and make a real effort to help resolve the problems, after all, if you don't care what happens to the place, why are you there in the first place?

Anyway, if you talk to your boss about this stuff, and don't feel like you are getting anywhere, maybe it is time for you to move on--Like I said above, you are a valuable commodity(and a rarity) in the workplace, because you can sell, and have the experience to prove it--With a little looking, you could probably double your income, get an office of your own, and be working with people who are really pleased that they found you--

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:58 AM

Got to go with Jim on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:26 AM

Sinsull, if you work on straight commission, that's practically the same as being self-employed. Or, you're more like a partner than an employee. I'd say you have a right to set your own working conditions. Sure if the computer belongs to your employer, he technically has the right to take it away from you, but he'd be shooting himself in the foot if he did that. And if he has any intelligence, he knows it. It sounds like he doesn't have much respect for YOUR intelligence if he expects you to take his complaints seriously. I say you're right to ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 06:28 PM

I work all day at a computer and on the internet. But lately I have been getting grief for "surfing". I check AOL and Mudcat regularly and he can see everyone's screen from his desk. I work on straight commission, am early every day, do many non-sales tasks without pay, never take a lunch hour, and refuse to take his complaint seriously. Especially since he is constantly playing on line with air fares, travel plans, stock trades, etc. He is the owner. But I cannot keep a clear head without periodic breaks during a nine hour work day. this is a small privately owned company in a crappy industrial area. No windows. Literally no place to go for lunch - we order in. And I need to surf.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 05:08 PM

Yep Doug, at the end of the day it is the employer who calls the shots. It just seems a shame that some are so narrow-minded/ inflexible.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

Perhaps you're right, Jon, but the point is not how the employer views it, is it? It's how the employer views it, isn't it?

I understand what you're saying, and having been both an employer and an employee, I see both sides of the issue. In my opinion, employers who have a flexible policy such as the one you suggest, will have better satisfied employees that produce better. I've experienced both situations as an employee, and I much prefer the flexible boss too.

This discussion began, though, because Jim had received word that his boss was not happy about his spending time on the Internet on company time. I still think, when push comes to shove, the employer calls the shots.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:10 PM

Doug, I would view keeping the agreement with the employer as getting the required work done on time rather than being occupied every minute and slack periods can occur. I have known bosses who have tried to find extra work or even invent work rather than see employee's idle but I believe this policy tends to be counter-productive in the longer term.

Also, how many of us are capable of working on something for say 2 hrs solid? I know I'm not. Taking an unnoficial 5 minute break can again be more productive than trying to slog right through. Ever done a cryptic crossword, reached the brick wall, put it down, had a coffee, come back and got going again?...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

Alex: If you wrote the letter during your lunch hour, or on a company approved break period, I would say the company has no rights at all. If you wrote it on company time, the company might not have a right to read it, but they probably would have a right to fire you.

And yes, I suspect if they wanted to, your employer could monitor your telephone calls as long as they are made on company time.

What is it about owing work to the company one works for during work hours that so many people in this thread don't understand?

The company provides (with exceptions I'm sure) a paid lunch period, and one or two breaks a day. If the company lives up to its agreement with the employee, and does provide them, why is it unreasonable to expect that the employee live up to his?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:12 AM

Mousethief (and others): Suppose you write something -- a computer program, for example -- that would be useful to you in another job. Do you have the right to take a copy of it when you leave, and use it in your next job? Again, my guess is, no you don't.

I was once unexpectedly fired from a programming job. My boss and my boss's boss stood around and watched while I cleaned out my desk. I wasn't allowed to make backup copies of programs and files I had created. They wouldn't even let me take printouts of obsolete versions.

Moral: If you have created anything you think you have a moral right to keep, take home copies of it NOW before you get fired. If there is even a remote possibility that you might create something on the job that might be the subject of copyright, patent, or trademark, or that is merely useful outside the scope of your job, you should have a written contract with your employer that spells out your rights. Without such a contract, assume you have NO rights.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:07 AM

I really have mixed feeling about this issue, especially since I retired from a large corporation that monitored internet usage. I too was insufficiently challenged, and used my spare time to noodle around on the net and check into Mudcat. I used my lunch hours to work on my songbook on the company PC. This "noodling" brought entertainment but also invaluable lessons in terms of design ideas, navigation, HTML and other languages, etc. My rationale was that I was improving my web skills, and I still believe that to be true.

However, there were other occasions when I used my spare time to investigate new software packages and information in trade journals, which I eventually used in the course of my work in I.T. and were of direct benefit to my employer.

I asked myself this question: if this were my company and my money, would I want all my employees to be doing what I'm doing? Despite the benefits, including reduction in stress, increased morale, web skills, etc., the fact remains that that time belongs to the employer, and it's the employee's job to work for pay during that time. Despite the fact that I felt myself to be an extremely productive and creative type (don't we all?), most people are something less than that, and any reasonable employer would not want them surfing the net rather than seeking out productive work. It's hard to get over the attitude that it's O.K. for me but don't let all those other folks surf the web all day whenever they feel like it!

Internet monitoring software has been around for quite awhile, and the employer has an obligation to post a notice somewhere that the employees are subject to monitoring. The policy should also be clearly stated in writing so there is no surprise when confronted.

What I ended up doing at my job was leaving the office during lunch, and sometimes going home to surf the net. And it turned out that this was just the beginning of the awareness that led me to leave corporate life entirely, with no regrets!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 08:32 AM

Mousethief: I don't know the answer to your questions. But they lead to more questions: Suppose you write something so brilliant that it could be published. Who owns the copyright? My guess is, your employer owns it, even if writing wasn't part of your assigned duties. Probably there have been lawsuits over such things. Weren't Nixon's presidential papers the subject of such a lawsuit? I don't remember the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 11:17 PM

If I write a letter to somebody on company property (let's assume it's my paper and envelope and pen), does my employer have a right to read it?

Does my employer have a right to listen in to phone calls I make from work?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:48 PM

I don't do my surfing ONLY at my lunch break. I used to, but it gradually developed to whenever I felt bored. Also, since there is no fixed time for my lunch break, I could take my lunch break any time I felt like it, which also meant I could surf any time I felt like it. Nobody could tell, by watching me (unless they watched me all the time) whether I was abusing it or not.

I figure if I start going away from my desk for a half hour every day, it will remove all suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:34 PM

I agree Doug

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM

Sounds like a plan, Jim. I guess I didn't understand that you did your surfing during your lunch break. For me, that puts a litle different light on the subject. Can't imagine your boss being terribly perturbed by that. Lunch time is your time.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:51 AM

Some of you may be interested in how things are developing for me at work. Today, by my own initiative, I had a long private talk with the owner of the company I work for, and guess what? The subject of the Intenet didn't come up! I needed to talk to him about something that is an even bigger concern of mine, namely an ongoing conflict with another employee, who I fear is trying to make me look bad. The owner told me not to worry because "I have confidence in you." Hoo, boy! Did that feel good! So I guess my fear that I was in deep doodoo over my Internet use was a big false alarm.

I still plan to severely cut back my Internet use. Instead, I will start taking lunch breaks again -- I mean, getting away from my desk at lunchtime, instead of staying at my desk and surfing. I will try to spend more time having conversations with people, so I can keep up with office gossip, and perhaps keep better informed about what is going on around me. Now, these things could be viewed as wasting time, too, but (1) they are not so addictive, and (2) they are generally regarded as "normal." I suspect that people who are known to spend time on the 'net are viewed with suspicion by their fellow employees who would rather do their chatting orally. And oral chats don't leave so much of a trail.

And I plan to look into the possibility of working elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:20 PM

grab, lost productivity is an issue. You can look a lot busier in front of screen surfing the net or partaking in a mudcat forum, than standing around the water cooler or having a coffee break. (It has become a major problem for large organizations - one of my friends was a network administrator noticed that huge email files (mostly silly mpeg movies) were clogging up the system and the company had to restrict use. I still get emails and often large joke type files from people who I know are at work. Now there are more and more who are not allowed to use their email for personal use.

mrs duck. recently the courts ruled in favour of the employer when it came to email privacy. If the email is written on the company computer or company account the employer has the right to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM

I hate to sound like a republican, but, this reminds me of the old story about a guy who was caught speeding through a school zone. He was raving at the cop for his hiding behind a sign to help him catch speeders. I still believe in A DAYS WORK FOR A DAYS PAY

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:01 PM

The way I see it is if you are up to date with all your work then a short while on the net is not an issue. At the school where I work the internet is online all day from 8am until 5pm. Obviously I can't use it for personal use when the children are there but in breaks I see no problem and would not be happy for anyone to read anything I should write or read. There is a net nanny in place and I have no objection to a record of sites visited being kept but not content of e mails etc. Of course if you are using the net instead of working or if it is costing your employer money that would otherwise not be spent then he has a right to question your use of it

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:24 PM

Jim, find a new job, because you are working for a place that is hitting the skids--get out before they lock the doors!

If you all will note, Jim points out that he has been surfing the web a lot because there has been a drastic decline in the amount of programming work---The time spent monitoring his net use, and the money spent on the software would more productively have been spent looking for new business--

In the days before the internet, Jim and company would have been staring at the walls, talking on the phone, reading the paper, taking early lunch, long coffee breaks, etc--at least until the inevitable pink slip came--

When there is work to do, most employees are happy to do it , and it is no big trick to figure out who isn't working, since they never get anything done--don't need complicated software to figure that out--

Meanwhile, there is still a lot of work out there for programmers, Jim, and some places will let you surf the net in your spare time--

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:58 PM

This "lost productivity" is only a new issue if it's something that wouldn't have happened before. If you're sending emails instead of taking long coffee breaks, is it a big deal? If you're doing both though, maybe it is...

The one rule though is that if Net use is monitored, the employees MUST be told about it, and told what the rules are. My company is fine with _reasonable_ personal use, but they have a log of how many megs you go through, and if that gets too large then you can expect IT to start asking questions. Many places pay per meg downloaded, not per minute or per month, so that's the bottom-line cost they want to watch. The only three main rules in our company though are (1) no porn, (2) no music, and (3) no games (all three are major offences). Cut those out and you're mostly down to downloading text which is much less stressful on the bandwidth. And we all know the score, so no-one crosses those boundaries.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Chip2447
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

If the collective 'we' are productive then leave us alone. However, if we aren't fire us... Seems pretty simple to me.

Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: ChrisHall
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:18 PM

As I sit here and send this from work, where I am responsible for monitoring our network, I think both sides of this argument have some valid points.

While there is certainly room for rampant abuse with the granting of open access to the internet, there are some employers that are taking things too far. For example, the constant monitoring of web/email traffic is a touchy issue that is sparking more than one lawsuit regarding privacy. Despite what many employers would like to believe, they don't 'own' the employee while they are at work.

On that vein, if as is common in the high tech industry, employers demand longer working hours and the sacrificing of personal time for the company, they had better make the workplace a more comfortable place to be.

While we have discontinued our internet monitoring for the time being, I found there were few instances of abuse. There was the odd accessing of porn sites, usually from PC's accessable by shopfloor workers. The only major spike in usage was a dramatic increase in accesses to job-hunting websites after they announced laying off 1/3 of the workforce....8)

Anyway, my personal policy is that I will do blind monitoring (track accesses by IP with no names) until I notice something that concerns me. This allows for users' privacy and the protection of the company from usage that could leave us liable. (Which is our main concern, we have a policy of leaving employee productivity up to each employee/manager) If the work is done, cut loose.

Cheers

Chris Hall

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:59 PM

net surveillance is a big business because cyberslacking is a big problem for industry. Its estimated that there is something like a billion dollars in lost productivity in North America. As a small business owner and employer of a small group of staff I would certainly be pissed off if an employee was surfing the net instead of working. or for that matter slacking off or stealing supplies etc. So far weve been lucky as I dont get anal about it. I dont have a punch clock and generally people get their job done. We have a fairly easygoing work environment. On the other hand people get used to expecting more money each year even though they are not necessarily more productive. And they dont always realize that the money comes in from the work they produce, so when its busy I expect them to work a little harder as I dont send them home when its quiet.

On the issue of employee surveillance, I worked at a school for autistic kids for several years and our class rooms had one way mirrors so we could be observed. Nobody was crazy about that idea but they had a legitimate right to do it. Both for observation purposes and to keep an eye on the staff.

Some companies do not allow staff to use email for private purposes and I can see why when many of my friends send jokes or video files of (usually something stupid) and it eats a lot of time and bandwidth.

Jim your employer, despite what you may think of him/her hasnt cut your hours and sent you home even though there is less work to do so How would you feel if you were in their place and found out employees were spending x hours surfing the net instead of working?

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:31 PM

If my boss has to make sure I'm doing my job, i.e. babysit, why hire me at all? If you can't find people who will do the job they're hired to do, time to close shop and take up another hobby.

Boss's job to babysit. Now I've heard everything.

It's the boss's job to enable me to to my job the best I can. It's the boss's job to act as a go-between between me and upper management.

It's MY job to make sure I'm doing my job. Not my boss's.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:28 PM

It's your bosses job to make sure you're doing your job... that's not spying...

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:24 PM

It's my boss's job to spy on me? No wonder Airbus is wiping our ass.

Alex at Boeing

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:59 AM

What I think you should get out of this is that, if you want to keep your job, you should not surf the web at work. However you received it, this is the message you should get.

All the best.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:51 AM

"What's next, monitoring every phone call and toilet visit?"

You'd be surprised how many are already doing so... and power to 'em... it's their right...

Ya don't like being monitored, go work somewhere else...

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: RichM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Most people can perform their jobs using a fraction of their attention and intelligence. Sadly, most managers don't know how to manage by results. They fall back on judging people by how they appear to be working--not by their achievements.

What's next, monitoring every phone call and toilet visit?

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:51 AM

Since I started this thread late on Friday, presumably everyone who has posted so far has been doing so from home, but I want to make sure that the ones who post from work see it, too. That's partly because I want my experience to serve as a warning to others, and partly because I want to see their reaction. Therefore, let this be refreshed!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 06:12 PM

Clinton, you win the prize for stating the obvious. Do you make a career of kicking people when they're down? Of COURSE I'm cheesed because I got caught. Just as anyone would be. You don't suppose I would have started this thread if I HADN'T got caught, do you?

Still, several people have had intelligent things to say about this topic, so I'm glad I brought it up. If I don't appear guilt-ridden and repentant, that's tough.

By the way, I think just about everyone in my company who has a computer surfs the Internet at times. You won't catch me squealing on them. I will probably warn them though that the owner is watching.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:59 PM

I'm in the fortunate position that I'm the one who would do the 'snooping' on behalf of my boss - I look after the IT equipment.

However, apart from a quick look at my email (at lunchtime, if I get lucky), I can find very little time to 'surf' the net at work, except for business purposes.

Don't complain if you get caught!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:15 PM

Oh please...

"Waaaahhh... my boss caught me goofin' off... waaaahhhh!"

somebody call the waaaaahhhmbulance!!!

You boss has to tell you he's checking up on you?!?! Gimme a frigg'n break... that's HIS job!!!

Yer only cheesed 'cause you got caught!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:06 PM

It amazes me that anyone finds time to use the internet at work -I don't find time to have my bloody lunch hour!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM

Despite being a card carrying Labour Party member and activist I am also an employer owning a small (very small) web design company. As it is in the interest of the company for all staff to be familiar with the technology we encourage private use of the internet during work hours. But our circumstances are an exception.

Our main priority is that the work gets done properly and on time. If that is achieved we don't care how much "free use" is made of our web connection. If work ain't up to scratch because of time wasting then we have to kick ass. But generally, our trust in our staff is rewarded with respect and honest work.

While I frown on any employer secretly monitoring the private actions of employees wjile in the work place, I can see that larger organisations than ours would descend into chaos if run in the liberal way we operate our little enterprise. Fair and clearly understood controls must exist.

When in doubt, expect your work PC to be monitored and checked. If you want to use your PC for private use, say it to your boss and ask for permission. Email the request so that you have a record of the request and reply. In most cases, if you play fair with people they will play fair with you.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jeep man
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:06 PM

Remember, it's the employer's ditch. He can say how to dig it. Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM

I run a small business. I don't directly monitor my guys' internet activity and I'm quite happy for them to go online for useful stuff, and to goof off a little if it helps keep them happy and productive.

That said, I did have to read the riot act when I got the first phone bill after we installed an ISDN line - it seemed one of my lads was downloading hours of music files and clocked up nearly four hundred quid's worth of bills in the first quarter.

That, as I said to him, is tearing the arse out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:15 PM

The policy should have been made clear, absolutely (ours is). I know they have monitoring software, but I am extremely productive, although I do things that I know aren't allowed, like monitor my home/other job email, or play Alchemy (which I try, I really try, only to do at lunch). I also read the funnies and some columnists every morning, but perusing the paper is part of my job, as I monitor media mentions (hey, how alliterative) of our authors anyway. I don't do anything I couldn't pretendto justify, in other words (hey, if they gave us more than a half hour for lunch, it'd be worth going somewhere; at least hy staying there and playing Alchemy while I have my sandwich I can answer the phone and emails and such. If they're gonna fire me, they'll probably have a better reason than my Internet abuse. But on the other hand, if I made myself dislikable, they could use my Internet abuse as an excuse to fire me, I'm sure.

But I think that even had the policy not been clear, it would have been obvious to me that using company equipment for personal fun was wrong, likely illegal, and certainly an offense worthy of termination.

It is also obvious to me that the boss is a pointy-haired refugee from a Dilbert strip.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:53 PM

I certainly agree, Jim, that your boss should have shared with the employees the fact that he had purchased the monitoring software. I think Jon Freeman is right. He doesn't appear to have good management skills.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:42 PM

In any case pursuing a draconian policy of mechaistic control is almost GAYRAWNTEED!@!!! to demoralize, disincentive and discomBOBulate your employees. Why would anyone want to do that? Must be a psychological need. Moral: Keep your own integrity and don't hire on to any Gollums.

A

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:28 PM

Unfortunate that we don't have the stats to show that multitasking with an open Mudcat window, which gets your mind running at a much higher RPM, boosts workplace creativity and productivity. When I was doing the hardest of the Red Cross writing, especially grant writing, I found I could work MUCH faster and with MUCH less need for editing, if I was also keeping the creative channel WIDE open.

As a separate thread, collecting testimonials about that would enhance Max's ability to market his site design.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:12 PM

I agree Jim, a sensible open approach where everyone knew where they stood would have made far more sense. It does sound to me as if the owner is lacking in management skills.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:03 PM

What frosts my fridge is the fact that the owner went to all the expense of buying this software that would monitor Internet use, and then he tried to hide the fact that he had it! This seems incredibly stupid and cowardly. If I had only KNOWN that he had it, that alone would have made me curtail my Internet use, and we wouldn't have to resort to the silliness of moving desks around. Or if he had only spoken to me and told there was a problem.

I found out about it only because my own boss is smarter and more humane than the owner. She discreetly indicated that she sympathizes with me, and plans to cut back her own Internet use, too. She also indicated that she'd rather not be dealing with this at all, but she was forced to.

I don't dispute his RIGHT to restrict and/or monitor my Internet use. But I think he should have given us fair warning.

But at the same time he buys this monitoring software, he is incredibly stingy about buying stuff that would actually increase our productivity. But I suppose if we were more productive, we'd have even more time to screw around.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM

There is a big business in special programs written specifically to do employee monitoring. They can get a record of all use on all computers on a network by simply pushing a button. Some employers don't bother, but in medium to large businesses, it is getting more & more common to explore whether folks are 'playing' excessively.

Likewise, there are special programs which are designed to hide what you are doing. Some create 'hidden' folders to store files you don't want to be seen, and some provide a 'boss key' to instantly make what's on the screen disappear. (Not very easy, if they make you sit with your back to the door, huh?)

I strongly suspect the smarter bosses will eventually follow sugggestions made by Wolfgang and Jed and allow a certain amount of personal time, within limits.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

Hey, Jim Dixon's employer!!! He eats field mice too!!!

Anyone who runs a decent business cuts employees a lot of slack. If they work to rule, then when you need them for an emergency they are out of there at 5. The rest of this is totally pathetic.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:24 AM

I think the root of the policies I stated above are simple; I trusted employees to get their work done, well - gave them the tools they needed to do it - trusted them to use internet reasonably - and frankly didn't bother looking if they were getting their work done.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Tiger
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:18 AM

An employer needs to know if his employees are wasting time on ANYTHING. It could be the internet, Solitaire, reading the newspaper or chatting endlessly - it doesn't matter. Computer abuse shouldn't be the total focus of office policies.

Still, because it's electronic, it smacks of surveillance, which drives some folks crazy. I suggest the following policy to my clients:

Make it clear that the computer is a business resource and should be treated as such. Personal E-Mail, eBay, games and the like only cheapen its importance. In fact, I usually remove games from my client systems.

Be sure that computer abuse is identified as grounds for dismissal.

Inform employees that ALL activity will be recorded, and DO IT.

There, now that that's been said - just hope you don't ever have to use it, especially the details. I would never expect to resort to checking who Old Joe had sent E-Mail to, or if he had visited a porn site. However, it could be very enlightening to discuss his 30 hours online and 1,000 transactions during the prior week, while asking him if there had been commensurate business benefit. Methinks the behavior would stop.

I suggest it's not really snooping if you're not checking the details.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

Most companies monitor Internet use. When I was responsible for a very large staff, all of whom had internet access I had a clearly stated company policy that said stated the purpose of internet access in the workplace was work, and work related research. I told them that all users were monitored and that they probably did not want to be using the internet for anything that they didn't want to have public. That was about it. We had one case of misuse inthe two years I held that position, out of 130 or so people.

We had a similar policy about phones - we didn't monitor calls, of course, but did not have strict rules about who/when long distance calls were made - we simply let people know that we kept track of who called whom - and they might want to be sure they were comfortable explaining why they made the calls. I never saw abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: RichM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:49 AM

Employer Korporations would rather have you screwing the dog doing something useless that they sanction, rather than you compoleting your work quickly and do something you find interesting.

What a waste of human potential.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

Ya... people who whine and suck when they get caught 'screwin the pootch' at work DESERVE to be fired!

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:05 AM

I should have looked again before posting. Jon has said meanwhile a lot of my thoughts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:03 AM

A couple fo German companies with employees with internet access have now the following policy (most first started with monitoring and warnings): their employees may use the internet for whatever private purposes with two restrictions: (a) no interference with urgent work and (b)not surpassing a time limit (1-2 hours per week, e.g.).

The rationale behind that strategy is that whatever the employees may learn during surfing (HTML, how to find information, where to find information, how to exchange information,...) will be to the company's profit; each recreational time-out may enhance the productivity (the company profits again), and so on. Of course, this policy is restricted to certain types of jobs.

It is discussed in organisational psychology that a total level of control may be perhaps not just as bad as no control at all but worse than a restricted control with a bit a freedom. It may be to the company's advantage to be less strict. And mind you, organisational psychology doesn't deal with human freedom or such issue but with productivity alone. It can be a completely economically rational decision of a company to let the employees use a small part of the company's time for private purposes.

Me? As some of you know I study human errors in thinking, reasoning and in using arguments from probability and so on. So when I monitor Mudcat threads that's strictly work, of course, I collect new specimens. And the music threads? Enough work for me in them as well. I think I should work now in another thread (Grin).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:32 AM

Employee net abuse is becoming an increasing concern and has sparked off quite a big business in trying to prevent it and a number of companies actually use monitoring software to track internet usage (seems to me a better approach than someone walking past the screen...).

As for the rights and wrongs, clearly it is the employer's equipment, time, money and also security risks and I feel that all employers should have a clearly defined acceptable usage policy that employees should adhere to.

Not all employers will wish to ban all internet usage on their own equipment. It could be argued for example that allowing an employee to browse the web during breaks helps good relations, reduces the temptation for employees to just to browse at any old time during work and is effectively more productive than the complete ban.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:30 AM

Your employer is in business.,,,

How would YOU feel if HE kept taking 5.00 dollars a week...200.00 a year out of YOUR pocket.

It Would Not Be Fair

Become honorable

Avoid the temptation

Ask to be transfered to a gas pump

Your humble servant .gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:09 AM

Bill Clinton "privatized" my government agency in 1996, and I became an employee of a private investigations firm, doing the same job I had done before. The company was supposedly employee-owned, but the Clinton cartel brought in outside people as our upper managment, and our new managers did not accept any criticism from employees. They came up with a system of mandatory overtime, and worked it out so we were paid half an hour's pay for every hour of overtime we worked (supposedly we were salaried, so the "time" was taken care of and all they had to pay was the "and a half"). I was active in opposing the overtime policy, and critical of our new management in many ways. One day, my supervisor confronted me with a long list of every anti-management remark I had ever made by e-mail. The one that really ticked them off is when I signed something as if it were a sales slogan - "Joe Offer, Sacramento - check our low overtime rates." It really was frightening to find out I had been monitored so closely. My boss, who had been a friend for 25 years, was forced to give me a reprimand.
But we got back pay for time-and-a-half, and now I'm retired...and I think my boss was pleased that I stood up for the rights of employees.
Good luck, Jim.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:36 AM

Ok, I admit that for a long time I have been using the Internet, particularly Mudcat, to alleviate boredom, and as an outlet for whatever creativity doesn't find an outlet at work. I should point out, in my own defense, that I only use the Internet at work when I am not busy. I used to be busy all the time. For some reason that I don't fully understand, my company's business has drastically declined in the last year or so. They really haven't been able to give me enough work to keep me busy 8 hours a day. It may have something to do with the fact that the current owner bought out his partner last year, and the partner was the star salesman and the brains of the organization. I know I could spend my extra time learning new software or something like that, but I am just not motivated to learn things I may never need to use. I suppose I could also punch out (I'm on a time clock) and go home early, but that hardly seems fair because it would reduce my pay and it's not my fault I don't have enough work to do.

But come to think of it, I may start doing that anyway. Maybe I could use the extra time to look for a better job.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:03 AM

If: you are using a company coumputer; you are accessing the Internet on company time and the time on the Internet cannot legitimately be charged to company business, then you are in the wrong. It would be the same as using a comany credit card to take a friend to lunch that did not relate to business, or using the company telephone to make personal long-distance calls.

I think Spud is right. You are lucky that you didn't get fired, whether or not you are thinking about quitting.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:14 AM

Spud: As it happens, I'm on the verge of quitting anyway, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Internet problem, which is why I have no fear right now.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:05 AM

In plain inglitch, yer lukky ya didn't git fired.

Spud

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:48 AM

Legal right, shmegal right. If he would address the issue with a striaght and honest talk, he'd be taking the rational approach; bvy going into this game-playing pussyfoot meathead approach he is acxtually underminign the productivity7 and morale he is asserting he wants to increase.

But y'know -- the smart path is not to do things at which you would not like to get caught, if you have an option.

A

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: John Hindsill
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:05 AM

It is unfortunate but true, your employer has the legal right to 'snoop' on your computer usage if you are using the company computer. So do not put into e-mail that which you consider private, and do not spend time at extraneous web sites whilst using their equipment.

Subject: RE: BS: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: TishA
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:01 AM

I mess with the internet at work too. It's my own computer, I'm paid commission only and have no benefits at all. My broker gets 40% of my commissions for his cut. If I were paid in any other way,I'd not feel right about messing around on HIS time.

:) Chip A.

Subject: My employer snoops on my internet use.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:44 PM

Today I learned that the owner of the small company I work for has been monitoring my Internet usage. And presumably everybody else's. Furthermore I learned that he knows, or could theoretically know, the address of every single web page I have accessed, and how often, and at exactly what time. No doubt, www.mudcat.org shows up there a million times. Fortunately, I don't look at porn sites. For that matter, I can't remember ever looking at a site that I would be embarrassed to have him know about. But the sheer volume of traffic has apparently raised some eyebrows, because the owner told my boss, and my boss told me.

The weird thing, the really strange thing, is that she wasn't SUPPOSED to tell me. What she was supposed to do was get me to rearrange my office so that I would sit facing the wall, and so that anybody who walks around behind me could see my screen. Now that's something I would never agree to do unless there was a good reason. The ostensible reason is to make room for a third person to share my office. There are 2 of us here already, and it's a big room. But when I began to argue that the rearrangement she had in mind wasn't strictly necessary, even WITH a third person, she told me the REAL reason.

I'm not the only person affected by this. There will be a massive rearrangement of office space, and all the programmers will be squeezed into less space to make room for another department that is expanding. Part of the plan is to get all the programmers to sit facing the wall. Evidently the owner hopes that he will thus get more work out of us without having to deal with the embarrassment of either (1) ASKING us to work harder, or (2) admitting that he monitors our Internet usage. Neither will he have to do the DIFFICULT task of actually measuring our productivity.

Have you ever noticed that in any company, anyone with any status, which means anyone who has moveable furniture and room to move it, ALWAYS arranges his office so that he sits facing the door? And that only the PEONS are forced to sit facing the wall? I have never seen ANYONE choose this arrangement for himself, when there is any choice.

I once heard of someone having a rear-view mirror, taken from a car, mounted on his computer monitor. I'm thinking of getting one. And I'm thinking of having it engraved, "OBJECTS IN THE MIRROR ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN THEY APPEAR."

Any other suggestions?