Contests: The good, the bad, the ugly

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM

Spaw, you really are a pretty decent guy, no matter what they say!

The bass player thing is tricky. Another member of our band was also asked to participate in that pick-up band, but he refused, since (he told them) his allegiance was with our band. The bassist was keeping all his options open. Might we have won 3rd if he hadn't played for them? Who knows? He did well, in any case.

As for the accompaniment, I've always had a mission to give recognition to people for what they do. In fact, "recognition and reward" were two of my personal issues in one of the re-engineering projects I worked on in my former corporate life. Nothing I did on guitar was spectacular, that's for sure. But I'm pretty sure the second place guy performed alone. Maybe that says something. I'm thinking that all the accompanists of all the winners should have been acknowledged.

One thing that troubled me most was the lack of the usual bluegrass camaraderie. I'm so used to folks picking tunes together, laughing, sharing songs, etc. This was like stepping onto another planet where music was serious business, and the jam next door was the competition.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:17 AM

Barb, you have it exactly........Competition DOES change your reality and that is what makes it so addictive and a burning need for some people. When you say it changed your perception, I would ask how? If you mean that on the one hand, the win made you feel like, "Hey! Damn straight! And it's about time!!!".....and the loss made you feel, "What a load! We're still the best and to hell with them!"...............Well, that's about what it does and my point above about good losers and gracious winners comes through. Again though, I detest judged competitions because there is so much room for error based on personal opinion.

On the bass player............how did he feel and how did you feel towards him? would you expect him to do less than his best with the other group? If so, time to own up to it......You got the competitive juices going just where they tend to go. If you hate the feeling, avoid competition. If it fires you up...............

BTW, your lack of getting acknowledged also ssays something about your comp spirit. I have noticed though that in many of the fiddlin' and pickin' contests, nary a word is said (or very few anyway) about the guitar player. I've often thought that to be a major sleight myself as it can make or break the contestant and some of the accompanying pickers are absolutely unreal!!! Sorry you didn't get a nod but Frank's win was also partly yours. Congratulations!

Spaw

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:00 AM

KingBrilliant, there's much truth to what you say. I have a great memory of the part where Frank (and I, the invisible accompanist - well, maybe not so great a memory after all) won the banjo contest. I'm wondering what my impression of the event would be if we had won the band contest. This may mean either that only winners have a positive view of the world, or only people with lower expectations whose results match their expectations have a positive view.

But that's just the point. Winning and losing changed my perceptions. The competition itself had the effect of coloring my reality. Our band's performance hasn't changed, but my estimation of it in relation to the rest of the world has.

Your DARE is tempting.

And what about the whole thing with the bass player? No one has commented on that.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: paddymac
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 08:58 AM

I'm not "into" the competitive thing, but I do recognize that there are many folks who thrive on it. I'm more inclined to compete with myself. I practice and play with the basic goal of "better today than yesterday, but not as good as tomorrow." Of course, it doesn't always work out that way, but it's still a workable philosophy.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 05:20 AM

Barbara - it might not have been as deeply sin-inducing as you initially remember it. In something like that you have high hopes & adrenalin - then if it doesn't match up to your hopes you're bound to hit a low & have a pretty jaundiced view of the whole thing. Eurchhh - just the thought is scarey - I don't think I'd have the confidence to even enter a competition. And well done for the placing you did get! I DARE you to go in for another, just to check whether its the same - in the interests of scientific enquiry.....
I get a similarly jaundiced view of the local open-mic thingy whenever I'm having a crisis of confidence (often). When I'm not happy with how I'm singing I project all manner of badness onto everyone else. This is a stress & dissatisfaction reaction, so it might be analogous to what you were feeling at the competition. Mark was getting really fed up with me going home with tales of how so-and-so was really waspish that night - how so-and-so-else really fancied themselves but they're crap really - etc etc etc. As soon as I had a good-voice night all of those perceptions disappeared & suddenly I love everyone again & only see the best in them. I'm NOT implying that you had a bad-voice day - just suggesting that the way you were feeling may have coloured how you interpreted people's actions Its interesting though that competition appeared to bring out the worst. I'm relishing the thought of a venue full of Mr Hyde musicians!

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Cappuccino
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 03:27 AM

Thanks Al, I see where I've got it all wrong - in some of the bands I've been in, I thought it was the one who got to the end of the song first who won!!!

- Ian B

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: GUEST,Al Lubanes
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM

Here's another way to run a contest. Everybody starts playing the same tune at the same time. The last one standing wins.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

I got sucked into one of those things a few years ago, a storytelling contest in Keene NH. According to a local public tv person, I lost by a fraction of a point to a local lawyer. He was a pretty good teller, but, his habit of saying "son a ma gun" every few words turned me off. So, I'd be willing to bet that if the contest were held here, he would lose because of his lack of accent.

Sure, it irritated me, but, it did not make me lose confidence in what I do, I get to travel all over telling stories while he is just another lawyer.

I dont approve of beauty contests either. The last thing a young woman needs is to be displayed like a piece of prime beef.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM

Congrats anyway on the success you DID have!!!

Competition is a funny thing.......any competition. There is a lot to be learned about ourselves in the process. Someone much brighter than I am once said that, "No one is completely happy with the success of a friend," and it rings sorrowfully true.

We try to teach our kids to be gracious winners and good losers but the very nature of any competitive endeavor makes the concepts null and void. It's easier to see in sports or business I suppose, but instrument contests are no different. Rich had a friend who remembered Frank winning, but can anyone tell me who came in second or third? Probably not. In competitive things, I have tried to show goodwill toward others when I've won, but I probably could have done better. When I've lost............well, I just ain't a good loser to be truthful. We're talking here about things I would or have competed in, and any kind of pickin' contest wouldn't be one of them! Most of the Bluegrass contests seem pretty filled with "competitive types" and they may be just fine sitting around and talking, really enjoyable, even fun to play with..........but throw in the "competition" and there's a personality change.

I used to love working with other people on their skills racing both sailboats and cars. I had lots of good times sharing stories and such, but on race days............forget it. I was capable of damn near anything, even to people who were friends! I'd be mad at myself for every mistake and was always looking for any edge. My sailing partner of many years was a like minded guy and we managed to be fairly successful. We learned to channel the anger at ourselves and all of that and focus intently on what was happening. Each of us can recall instances after a regatta when we felt bad over something we had done on the course, but it didn't stop us the next time. Even with that, we were pretty well liked and known as practical jokers,etc.........but... "Watch 'em on the water."

Competition brings out the best in us at times, but there is a flip side because it also brings out the worst. Rick says "you know you're good if you're good" and while that is true, there is also (in some of us) the need, often a burning need, to prove it.

Anyway......Happy for Frank!!! Congrats to you all too for trying (I hate judged events though....human factor doesn't keep the field level too often).

Spaw

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 05:03 PM

Some interesting comments above. Hi dwditty. Yes, it was Roxbury. No, we will NOT be going to Morris, although we had originally planned to before I found out what these contests are like. We have some good musician friends in Morris, and I have no intention of competing with them. The hoots will be starting up again in September, and we hope you'll be back!

Hi Rick. Yeah, we had lots of opinions about why the judges placed the other bands above us, none of which involved the idea that the other bands were better than us! (Didn't acquire any humility in this process . . .)

It surely was an educational experience.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Hollowfox
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 04:10 PM

Sounds like an educational experience to me. At least your curiosity's satisfied as to what it's like.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM

I'm totally with MMario. I compete with myself on a daily basis and I rarely ever win! ;-) But I do get better... so maybe I win after all.

I'm not a really competitive person (except with myself) so I'm usually content if somebody good wins. I haven't been in any talent contests since I was a teenager, though. I did win a piano competition once.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: GUEST,Pete(boom) at work
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM

Greetings!

As one who has competed often at different levels, both as an individual and as part of a band (waiting to work up the guts for bodhran and whistle - they can't be THAT hard, can they?) I can empathize with you. What I have found is that forums where the adjudicator is required to write a critique while you are playing tend to be much better at helping you hone your playing than the ones where they simply post results after. With written sheets (although I haven't seen them at folk contests I've watched) you at least find out what they thought of the performance and maybe get a basis for why you've placed where you did.

On the other hand, having adjudicated contests where the entire field of 10 to 20 players were pretty bloody bad, contests can sometimes come down to which player made the fewer basic errors - not who played the best.

One contest, a pipe band snare drumming contest I judged, saw five or six players comparing sheets and griping about all getting the same comments. At the end of the day, I called the lot of them over and went through exactly WHY they got those comments - because they all had the same basic problems. I then dressed them down for improper etiquette and talking loud enough to be heard while a soloist in another grade was playing "on the boards." They liked me even less after that - by which time I did not care.

MMario - I like your response - sometimes that is a better prize that a little cash quickly spent in the beer tent or a bit of hardware that hangs on the wall or gathers dust on a shelf.

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Cappuccino
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:40 PM

When writing for a country magazine once, I was stupid enough to agree to be a judge in one of these things. After the announcement, the judges hid in the washroom for a clear hour before the crowd had dispersed... never again!

I believe that competition of this kind really has no place in music. But, hypocritically enough, when tuning up in a two-band show, I confess to always playing a few of those little licks which you do just to show your opposite number in the other band that you mean business...!

- IanB

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:32 PM

I would never enter any kind of a music contest unless I was absolutely confident I could finish within the top 3 (i.e. Winfield). Otherwise it would be an exercise in embarrassment, frustration and getting down on one's abilities. I think that even if I was good enough, I still wouldn't do it. Rick's words : If yer good, ya know it...if yer not ya should know it are spot on. Be comfortable with yourself and your abilities and enjoy what you do.

Accept the fact that no matter how good you think you are or might be, there's some 13 year old Lenny Breau clone out there somewhere, who can pick circles around you. If your ego can't handle that, then perform only around people who will never achieve your current level of ability. This way you can be a legend in your own mind. :-)

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:25 PM

Hi Barb, great post. Nope, wouldn't enter a contest for love nor money. If yer good, ya know it...if yer not ya should know it.

All the competition does is make people uneasy. And I've never seen ONE (I backed up a lot of fiddlers who LIVE through contests) where all the contestants thought the judges knew what they were doing. Same with performers jockying for spots at the Folk Alliance etc. Just seems to "hat in hand" for me.

On the other hand, had I been in your position, I'd have availed myself big time re: the "gluttony" sin.

Hope all is well. You are wonderful folks and we think of you often.

Rick

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: dwditty
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:56 AM

Hi Barbara,

Sounds like you were in Roxbury. I wasn't, but a co-worker was and remembers Frank winning. From your post, though, I guess this means you probably won't be going to Morris.

Anyway, I have never competed so I can't really answer your question. It does seem that there is an awful lot of wait time involved, and I imagine that, for the performer, that wears thin quickly. Spectators, if they happen to be in a section where others are focused on the music, have it much better than the performers. I find that I usually have to move around a bit to find a spot where I can concentarte on listening to the music. While it can be an annoyance, I generally don't expect others to necessarily stop what they're doing (having their own fun) to accomodate me unless they are being downright offensive. Usually, though, they are talking and laughing which is giving them joy.

My suggestion: Stick with the hoots and coffehouses to perform and the contests to pop in for a listen.

Nice to see you here. It's been a while or we've been in different threads.

dw

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: MMario
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM

at my gaming booth one of the questions that constantly comes up is "What do we win?" - Our answer is "self-respect, admiration and a sense of accomplishment" - most parents immediately drag their kids away - "If you don't win anything I'm not paying for you to do it!"

Last weekend I had two sets of parents who CHEERED!!!

Sometimes the best cometition is against yourself..not others.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:44 AM

Never participate in anything that only allows you the bad sins and none of the fun ones, is my motto! You really nailed 7 for 7 on that one, poor thing! I mean, if you can't be lazy, horny and well-fed, why go and be mad, jealous, vain and greedy?

But I'd be interested in others' experiences, I've got a kind of theory going that competition may be the root of much evil, this fits right in, which one wouldn't expect of folkies, somehow, which strengthens my thesis that it's the competition that's bad, not problems with the competitors. Would like some other data, though.

Subject: RE: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

I wouldn't know, I've never competed and from what you've said I wouldn't want to now.

Subject: CONTESTS: The good, the bad, the ugly
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:05 AM

The bass player in our band talked us into participating in a "pickin" contest last weekend. I've never been to one and I'm not at all into competition, but finally agreed to do this as an adventure and experience. Now that it's over, I'm thinking it brings out the worst in people: GREED, ENVY, DIVISIVENESS, DISSATISFACTION, DISAPPOINTMENT, HOSTILITY, DISLOYALTY, DECEPTION, PRIDE, SELF-DOUBT, etc.

We actually did pretty well, all things considered, but the experience left a nasty knot in my gut. Frank came in 1st place in the Old-Time Banjo contest with me accompanying him on guitar. I was really PROUD of his win (he beat out some terrific players) but also DISSATISFIED that the accompanist (me) was totally ignored in all the hoopla. We had always thought of this piece as a duet, so it cast a shadow of DIVISIVENESS. However, I GREEDILY stuffed the prize money into my pocket.

Then -- several hours later -- came the vocal contest. Frank and I accompanied Paul, who is a fine singer in our band. He did not win, place or show. People in the audience later said that he was great, but they couldn't even hear the accompaniment. Hours of stress waiting and preparing for the event, and he was summarily wiped out while we weren't even heard.

Then -- after another long wait -- came the band contest. By this time, it was so late that most of the audience had left, we had spent most of the day behind the stage practicing or accompanying people, hadn't eaten all day, were dead tired. Up to this point, we thought our 5-piece bluegrass band was pretty good. They allowed each group to do one song. We knew our song cold, practiced it anyway, and did a good job on stage. Our bass player was asked to also play bass for another pick-up band that needed one. He asked for our O.K. (DISLOYALTY?) and we said sure, that would be O.K. since we didn't consider the other group any competition, and laughingly said just don't play as well for them as you do for us (DECEPTION?).

Our band came in 4th place and won some money. Our bass player's other pick-up band came in 3rd place. None of us cheered. Someone else might say, wow, be glad you got something! My reaction was DISAPPOINTMENT, ENVY, SELF-DOUBT, HOSTILITY, etc. Yeah, I know, immaturity, taking it all too seriously, lousy loser, etc. But I knew all that before I went . . .

As I looked around at the performers, my twisted vision suddenly saw everyone as a bunch of wannabe's, has-beens and mercenaries. The lure of the cash and the chance for "glory" was turning nice people into contest animals, me included.

Of the "seven deadly sins" we nailed four of them (pride, envy, greed, anger) skipping sloth (too busy), gluttony (too busy) and lust (too tired) by the time the day was done at 2 a.m.!

Yeeeeccccchhhh!

Is there a good side to these contests? I'd like to hear some of your stories and comments.