Anniversary of the World

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Fiolar
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:02 AM

Too true Grab. Sadly the point you mention about beating a person to drive the demons out is still alive and well and living in London as witness the recent case of little Anna Climbie who was sent by her parents from the Ivory Coast to say with her relatives in the hope of a "better life.". At her death she had something over 128 burns, bruises and cuts on her tiny body. The sad thing is that "Social Services" were involved. According to recent info, she could only speak French and so was unable to "communicate." The relatives finished up in jail, but that is scant comfort for the grieving parents.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Fiolar
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:02 AM

Too true Grab. Sadly the point you mention about beating a person to drive the demons out is still alive and well and living in London as witness the recent case of little Anna Climbie who was sent by her parents from the Ivory Coast to say with her relatives in the hope of a "better life.". At her death she had something over 128 burns, bruises and cuts on her tiny body. The sad thing is that "Social Services" were involved. According to recent info, she could only speak French and so was unable to "communicate." The relatives finished up in jail, but that is scant comfort for the grieving parents.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Grab
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

Susan, directing attention to the ridiculous is not saying anything at all about the majority which is not ridiculous. There's nothing ridiculous about faith in God (or a god, or many gods) - I'll say that explicitly, in case you think I'm mocking your religion. But suppose I posted a note saying "God has told me that everyone must go naked, with their dangly bits painted blue", I'd expect to have the piss ripped out of me, not bcos I'd invoked God but bcos I was being a complete pillock. The religious connection is a total red herring.

Fiolar's post pointed out an amusing aspect of the pre-scientific world-view. Others could include the medical theories that "bleeding" a person was good for them, that a substance called the Philosopher's Stone would allow a potion to be brewed which would make the drinker immortal, and that ppl with mental disabilities could be cured by beating them to drive the demons out. All three of these are patently ridiculous, but by repeating them I am absolutely not mocking modern medicine!

I assume you will not deny that there are wierdos out there. Whether the wierdos call themselves Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish or whatever, they're wierdos. Their religious beliefs do not excuse them from wierdo-hood. Hitler (since you mention him) was also a devout Christian, but I don't confuse you with him, or with Tammy Faye Bakker, or my mum, or any other Christians - Hitler was a wierdo, Tammy Faye Bakker was/is a wierdo, my mum can be mildly nutty at times, and we'll make our own judgements on you. Wierdo-ness transcends religious, cultural, musical, ethnic and geographical boundaries. Wierdos need pay no union dues or association membership (although health insurance may be useful). There are no barriers to becoming a wierdo. If you feel the Call of the Wierd, then just espouse some theory which is incompatible with known facts (eg. "the world is actually flat and space travel is a conspiracy") and you too can be a fully-fledged wierdo. Wierdos of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but the respect of others (and your sense of humour - no wierdo can have a sense of humour, else they'd see how wierd they were).

Graham.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Deda
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 04:10 PM

An aside about October. In ancient Rome, the year started in March, which was the first month that farmer-soldiers could get their crops planted and head off to war. (March = Mars, War god.) Counting from March, September is the 7th month, October the 9th, etc. That is why the numbers seem to be off (sept = 7, oct = 8).

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Fiolar
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:43 PM

WYSIWYG. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. My opening post had nothing to do with my faith. It just attention to the fact that a rather insular individual against all the evidence around him dated the world when anyone of reasonable common sense could see that it was totally wrong. No good pointing out that he lived in the 17th century and didn't know any better. The ancient Greeks knew more than that. I find the sad thing today is that there are people living now who still believe it.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:21 PM

I want to respond to these:

And when one particular belief of a tiny fraction of christians is criticised this is not an attack on 'christianity' any more than a critique of one Taliban action or belief is a critique of the whole Muslim world.

... the last thing on my mind was the bashing of Christians or anyone else, especially as I am one myself. I suppose it goes to show how thin skinned some people are. The fact is that there are many weirdoes out there in this wonderful world of ours....

Stop and think how it is actually happening here at Mudcat. Threads like this are accepted as fine, but posts presenting a more positive view of the faith are often not, and people who are just speaking from their own experience are attacked for "getting in people's faces." We end up with a skew-view. By month's end, all that has been said and remembered is the bad.

Do we really have to do that-- keep finding something bad or dumb to attack, in order to get at our own ideas?

Fiolar, is your opening post really the message about your faith that you want to leave people with, if that's all they may happen to see of it?

Wolfgang, do you not realize that to keep directing people's attention only to the stupid or wrong part of a thing is to enlarge existing prejudices and create a basis for new ones? I don't appreciate being mistaken for Tammy Faye Bakker any more than you would probably appreciate being mistaken for Hitler.

It's lovely to see the commitment here to free speech. It's too bad it was missing when others were silenced.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Fiolar
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:58 AM

Amazing - the last thing on my mind was the bashing of Christians or anyone else, especially as I am one myself. I suppose it goes to show how thin skinned some people are. The fact is that there are many weirdoes out there in this wonderful world of ours and a skim through the Net will confirm this. Mrrzy: "October" was the eight month in the old Roman calendar. The question of music was once again raised I see. I think that the forum is big and diverse enough to discuss any item as many previous post have shown. Grab has put his finger right on the button - thanks.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:49 AM

Well, Deda, there are churches like that. *G* I know one in particular. *G* If you ever get up this way....

No, seriously, if you talk to people about what they are experiencing, you might find people like that in churches right where you are. And who says the church has to be that way? It's us, each of us...

Here are some other Episcopalians discussing different approaches to worship... CLICK.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:46 AM

Well, Deda, there are churches like that. *G* I know one in particular. *G* If you ever get up this way....

No, seriously, if you talk to people about what they are experiencing, you might find people like that in churches right where you are. And who says the church has to be that way? It's us, each of us...

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Grab
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:35 AM

LR Mole, would that be the well-known book "Fall of the Vicarage of Usher"? ;-)

Fiolar, who's the person today who believes this?

One prime candidate is the International Flat Earth Research Society. Which just goes to show that there's no boundaries on (a) human gullibility and (b) human refusal to face facts (see also SatireWire). Not to be confused with The Flat Earth Society, which is a plain piss-take and very funny.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Deda
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM

Thank you, Susan, that was fascinating! If I could find an episcopal church that I felt was centered on that deep, genuine struggle to reach and understand the Divine, I'd be a regular. The Episcopal churches I've been to tend to focus on the pomp and ceremony, gilded symbols and show, which I find extremely off-putting. So I just pray every day with my husband and stay away from any organized anything -- although I kind of miss having a spiritual community. (Thread creep, thread creep, creep creep creep.)

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

Here's a discussion that's even more interesting:

CLICK

(I still use my old Mudcat name there.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

Steve, every single person I count as friend is one who thinks for himself or herself, rather than live in the assumptions of others.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:43 AM

Not to be confused with pot[pr. "po"]-bashing, which is somehting that went out with outside lavatories in my part of the world!

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM

Thank you Wolfgang, very well stated.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: LR Mole
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:58 AM

Is this another Poe-bashing thread?

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:40 AM

Bishop Usher's calculation

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:52 AM

Isn't christianity stupid?

Within the last year we had several mentions in threads (or whole threads) of particular stupid actions or thoughts of many many different people. For instance we had the two Germans who flew to Russia when they only wanted to go to the loo and many other instances often as input for song challenges. Recently we had severe criticism of some ideas and practices of the Taliban.

I don't remember reactions like 'Oh, one more German bashing thread' or 'another instance of ridiculing Muslims' in these instances. When a male German butcher of over 70 does something stupid and someone posts this here this is neither German bashing nor male bashing nor butcher bashing nor senior bashing.

And when one particular belief of a tiny fraction of christians is criticised this is not an attack on 'christianity' any more than a critique of one Taliban action or belief is a critique of the whole Muslim world.

Any reaction which does not take this difference into account is completely out of proportion. Usher's and many similar approaches to the age of the earth across many religions today can only serve as a source for amusement, in my eyes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 04:57 AM

I didn't think this was a Christian-bashing thread. I still don't think it is. Christians (most of the ones I know, anyway) have senses of humour/fun/the ridiculous; and besides, as Christian-bashing goes, it beats being thrown to the lions. I refuse to get involved in any God-created-the-world-in-six-days-including-the-fossils arguments.

Susan, I consider you my friend and fellow 'Catter, and I hope you think of me in the same way, even though I don't share your faith. I'm an agnostic, not because I can't be bothered to think seriously about it, but because I do.

As a matter of fact, I've always been tempted to go over the Bishop's figures to see whether he was correct in his conclusion. I never seem to have the time.

Steve

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:21 PM

Hey Gary. What do you think might have happened, if people had asked ME a question like this once upon a time: "Hey Praise, about all these Christian-focused posts of yours-- are you trying to proselytize here?"

If people had done that instead of immediately jumping up my ass with football cleats, I'd probably have answered quite honestly, "Well, no, I am not. I have, however, been working in a setting where it's illegal to talk about my faith, right when my own faith was exploding into music-based ministries, and in a place so sparsely populated there is no one HERE to talk with about it. At Mudcat, I see everyone saying what's on their minds, so I am too. That's all."

I wish people had done that. I wish, since they didn't, I'd been far enough along on my own path to read the reactions AS that question.

Oh well! We do what we can, when we can. No one died from it, as far as I can tell. *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

The opening post essentially had a dig at fundementalists. It is not necessarily aimed at Christian ones, but in the U.S., it is virtually always Christian fundementalists who loudly argue that the world was created in six 24-hour days, so WYSIWYG's question is reasonable.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Only Fiolar can say what was intended, and that is why I asked. But it sure doesn't look like a music thread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM

I didn't think so either, weepiper.

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: weepiper
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM

I don't think this was meant to be Christian-bashing, was it?

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:54 AM

But wasn't October invented in the 15th century, or something?

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: GUEST,DMcG
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM

We didn't miss it - we held an office party to celebrate the 6000th birthday of the world. Can you think of better excuse?

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:59 AM

I wrote this in another thread last night:

I think that God tries to get through to us, any way we let Him, and that our own free will is one of the most precious gifts He gave us. Yet we humans trample each other's free will in our zeal to persuade. God is the persuader... and He is wise in His efforts, far wiser than we could be. Our efforts to take His place... well, what would you expect of human beans? *G*

It has taken me almost two years to learn, the hardest way I think it could have been presented to me, that the attacks I've been getting at Mudcat-- and the anti-Christian element's vocal attacks on faith in general, ours in articular, and our Bible in specific-- are actually a very big blessing. How else could I have learned, unless I had seen it over and over again, the mindset of the unbeliever in today's culture? In all its diversity, I can see it at the Mudcat. And because it is the same people and the same rigid thoughts over and over again, I can choose to see how obvious it is that their mindsets are stuck, rigid, fearbased, anger-expressing, trouble-provoking.

That is really sad. I can pray for their healing without even troubling myself over whether I should also pray for their salvation. Because when God wants thetr attention, He will get it much more elegantly and powerfully than I can. I have been very, very foolish about this. For more about how misguided proselytizing can harm people's spirits, see: http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/discussion_list.asp?boardID=3478 (My name there is my old Mudcat name, Praise.) ~Susan

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:49 AM

Is this another "Isn't Christianity stupid?" thread?

Could it not have had a BS: prefix in the title?

~S~

Subject: RE: Anniversary of the World
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

Damn--that means the world shpuld have ended five years ago and I missed it! Wait a minute--maybe I didn't miss it and this is Hell!!

Steve

Subject: Anniversary of the World
From: Fiolar
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:26 AM

Rejoice people. If you believe in the calculations of James Usher, the 17th century archbishop of Armagh, the world clebrates its 6005th birthday today. According to him it was created on October 22nd 4004 BC. I can forgive a 17th century man for believing that rubbish but for one in the 21st century to still hold to it beggars belief.. We were thought at school that the world was created in six days but that the word "day" only stood for an unknown period of time and was not to be taken literally. Stand back and await the flack.