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BS: Thinking Outside Boxes...
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: robomatic Date: 05 Aug 02 - 01:18 PM A young teacher was watching a playground full of kids and noticed some older ones teasing a younger one. They would hold out a dime and a nickel and laugh when he took the nickel. Seeking a quiet time, the well meaning teacher took the lad aside and in a low voice explained to him that a dime, small as it was, was worth two nickels. "I know THAT", replied the kid, "But if I take the dime they'll stop giving me MONEY!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 04 Aug 02 - 08:37 PM Biil. I haven't played it -- but I am afriad I would get sucked into it big time and waste lots of valuable time when I could be conversing with my Mudcat friends...! :>) It looks lije you could spend a lifetime just figgering on the rules. Come to think of it, maybe I just already have!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Bill D Date: 04 Aug 02 - 06:26 PM a mechanical engineer instructor used to test his class with problems.. once he put a ping-pong ball inside a vertical pipe barely large enough to fit in and cemented the base so it couldn't be moved...then told the kids they had the entire resources of the shop to get the ball out without breaking it. There were elaborate plans for vacuums and sticks with glue and thin strips of metal....until one kids got a look in his eye, and filled a canister with water, poured it in, and floated the ball out in 10 seconds. Amos..(and others)...have you ever played the card game "New Eleusis"? Some friends & I used to play about 20 years ago. It requires some 'interesting' thinking, both in strategy during play, but also in setting up each 'game' so it can be played without being too easy or too hard. We found some people were psychologically resistant to coping with the rules, and got very frustrated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: John O'L Date: 04 Aug 02 - 06:00 PM "Friday" is the name of his horse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: John O'L Date: 04 Aug 02 - 05:55 PM A man leaves on Friday, stays away a week, and comes back on the same Friday. How? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Aug 02 - 03:37 PM Apropos the 'barometer' question. How do you use a watch (Digital or analog) to find North ?
Throw the watch at a wall. Say "That's 'gone West'" and work out North from that Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:25 AM Powerful genes with the dark brown hair? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: John Hardly Date: 04 Aug 02 - 08:15 AM From a kids book of brain teasers came the -- "Two boys who look exactly alike, have the same birthday, share the same mother and father......are not twins. Why?" Of course, the answer is that they are two of a set of triplets. I was made to remember that teaser in a rather funny way. I was doing a show in Loiusville about twenty years ago. It was a somewhat slow day and I was sort of half reading a magazine to ward off boredome, when four young women walked up to my dislay and started looking. I looked up from the magazine and then did a double take -- three of the women.......I could not tell apart! I had never actually seen triplets before so, as they made a puchase, I asked them if they were indeed triplets.
Turns out that there weren't even twins among the three -- but what's more, the fourth woman with them (the only blond among these three very dark, almost mediteranean looking women) said told me that she too was a full sister! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:34 PM Reminds me of a question once asked on a physics test... Q. What method, making use of a barometer, can be used to determine the height of a building? The winning creative answer : Find the architect of the building and say "I'll give you this barometer if you tell me how tall your building is." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 02 - 04:51 PM Duct tape is not only outside the box -- to some people, duct tape IS the outside of the box!! LOL! Great minds run in the same ruts, Bobert!! Thanks for the grin!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:05 PM Whatever works, Amos. I won't tell you some of the things I've done with old Volkswagens to coax them from Point A to Point B or I'd have to wear a bag over my head around Catsburg for a month, but will say that a little duct tape and bailing wire maynot hold the space shuttle together but will fix a lot of the problems we encounter with machines downs here. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:10 PM I just got fed up trying to track down a replacement belt for a power planer; every satore that carries the tool directs you to the same address for replacement parts, and in typical Fubar Matrix phenomenology, that one source is closed on Saturdays. I was going to resort to hand planing until I relaized I had a few large O-rings left over from some earlier project. So I put three of them on the drive hubs and the planer is working fine. They won't last forever, but they'll last until Monday!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Rosebrook Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:06 PM We do tend to become "scripted" to see things a certain way, hear what we expect to hear, respond in the same way we have repeatedly done so in the past. And we can get stuck in that kind of in-the-box thinking. A "riddle" I do to illustrate this point with people in workshops is to hold up three coins - a penny, a nickel and a quarter. Then I tell them I'm going to ask them a question and use the coins to help me illustrate what I'm saying. The riddle goes like this: "Johnny's Mom has three kids. (holding up the penny) The first child's name is Penny. (holding up the nickel) The second child's name is Nicholas. (holding up the quarter) What's the thrid child's name?" Sometimes I have to say the opening line 3 or 4 times before some folks (like ME the first time I heard it) will get that the 3rd kid's name is Johnny. ~Rose
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Jeri Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:55 PM I got it. (D'oh!) Thanks, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:39 AM Jeri: Okay, make the "V" with the 5 coins. Now, pick up either coin at the top of the "V" and place it on top of the "point" coin. Now, you have 3 coins in one row and 4 in another. (The point coin is the coin that originally was shared by the 2 lines that form the "V"). See, language can get in the way of thought. Do you get it, Jeri? If not, let me know. It's a fun trick for getting kids to think out of the box... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM One smart engineer in there somewhere!! That;s a classic example. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM John hit the nail on the head! Paul, I love DeBono's books! Jeri, I wish I could write like that! Amos, in problem-solving activities and in designing scientific experiments, we first have to DEFINE the problem...or question the problem statement as given to us. My favorite example is the one of the engineers who were called in to redesign the elevators in a high rise building...they were told that the elevators were entirely too slow, and people were complaining. After some study, the engineers put several large mirrors in the lobby. (...so people could look at themselves while waiting for the elevators.) Problem solved. The problem was not slow elevators but bored people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 02 - 10:31 AM t's only instructions in a formal test, as in the example. Real-world situations often do not come with instructions, or only partial and misleading ones. I know I've helped BBW dozens of times over the years with suggesions that were outside the 'box' she was considering in. I can't remember them, though! A
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: harpgirl Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:22 AM ...inititate...now there's a creative word!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: harpgirl Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:20 AM ...the phrase, "think outside the instructions" would likely inititate more creative solutions, Amos... hg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Jeri Date: 03 Aug 02 - 08:54 AM When I was small, I once offered to wash the living room floor. I put brushes on my bare feet and skated around in the soapy water. I only remember this because my mother used to tell the story sometimes. I think there are a lot of little things we probably do and then just forget about. If you get right down to it, improvising fingernails from superglue & tissue or ping pong balls is outside the box. Just about any invention or innovation is outside the box. Most of us take this sort of small, everyday thing for granted. We only remember things that get a lot of recognition. Bobert, maybe I'm not getting it, but you said "move ONE coin" and then moved two? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Sorcha Date: 02 Aug 02 - 11:42 PM I can't really think of any "outside the box" examples but more than once I have had situations where "I would not have thought of that" because it "can't be done". Examples: Making tomato powder--dehydrate the tomatoes and then put them in the blender. Freezing any kind of melon. Thinking about washing/ironig 9+ yards of fabric that I plan to make drapes from--DOH--just take it to the Dry Cleaners. I will no doubt have the drapes cleaned to avoid washing them! Making wine from dehydrated fruit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Jeri Date: 02 Aug 02 - 11:28 PM I agree, John. Some folks are pre-occupied with finding just about anything to argue with. Guess it's their idea of fun. Amos's problem is not easy for literal thinkers, but then literal thinkers usually DO have problems thinking "outside the box." The trick, as I said before, is to find out what the real rules are. It's also to figure out what the real question is. People who interpret everything literally will always have problems with that sort of thing since it's not spelled out for them. They DO follow instructions really well, but have difficulty solving real-life problems where the rules aren't clear and the problem itself is often ill-defined. And the example Amos gave, well, I don't think there IS a right answer. The people doing the hiring were looking for someone who was creative enough to come up with a solution based on what was not there as well as what was. Me, I would have stopped and asked the old lady if she were ok. She would have told me to leave her the hell alone and wave a thingie of pepper spray menacingly. I would say "Hi" to the old friend, who would introduce me to her fiance - the "perfect man." I would then notice that while I'd been stopped, someone had slashed my tires. I'd take the bus home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: John Hardly Date: 02 Aug 02 - 10:38 PM damn. This is illustrative of the "box" mudcat thinking has fallen into... The craving to be the "smartest kid in the class" has everyone taking an adversarial view toward every post and question presented here.
Amos' question is a very good, and interesting one. How have you thought "outside the box"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: GUEST,Paul Date: 02 Aug 02 - 09:57 PM Bobert, That's a nice problem, and a good example of "outside the box" thinking. What I didn't like about the problem Amos initally cited, was that you the instructions said that you had to choose ONE person, yet the 'right' answer was to choose TWO. Your V problem and the nine dot problem don't give any extra rules, you can do as you see fit. Amos's bus stop one did, and also made a lot of assumptions. That's why I didn't like it much Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Bobert Date: 02 Aug 02 - 09:05 PM I kind of think that "language" is less problematic but the assumptions that accompany it. So I take 5 coins from my pocket and lay them on a table so that they form a "V" with two lines of 3 coins ecach sharing the point of the "V" and I say, "move one coin so that you will have 4 coins in one row and 3 in another" and after awhile of plodding and sliding coins around you perhaps say, "Hmmmmmm? Heck if I know" and I then pick up one of the coins from either end og the "V" and put it on top of the coin that forms the point. You scream, "Trick" and yes, it is a trick but not one of language but assumption and thinking inside the box. Fun thread, Amos... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 02 - 08:32 PM The nine-dot problem is practically mathematical in its abstraction. Does anyone know any really quality examples in real time? I am sure they are out there! Sharpening a wrench on the grinder is a good one even if very local in scope. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: GUEST,Paul Date: 02 Aug 02 - 08:10 PM Amos, I was being a bit of a devil's advocate, I guess. I do however get annoyed with trick problems, where language is used to hide one (initially unobvious)possibility, that is then seen as the 'right' answer - especially when the problems involve people. People tend to (always) complicate things. The only decent illustration of 'thinking outside the box' that I know of is de Bono's original Nine dot problem Paul The |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 02 - 07:50 PM Paul: Not "my answer", I'm sorry to say, but a posting that was circulated around. Nevertheless, I would argue that if the usual interpretation of the conditions described is taken, the answer resolves the situation pretty well. Of course it is a logical fantasy, as you point out. So maybe there really IS no box, eh? That's a neat trick!! Think outside the box about thinking outside of boxes!! What a revoltin' perdickament! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Bill D Date: 02 Aug 02 - 07:25 PM since I have been working with tools and in a shop for 15+ years now, my best examples are of looking around and seeing something that can be used for a job it was not designed for..."jury rigging" is a common term for it. also, I remember a fellow worker grumbling because a hex wrench we used a lot had become so worn that it would barely work, and he was anticipating ordering a new one... I just looked at him and took it and ground the tip down 1/8"..(took 15 seconds) and handed it back. He stood in awe...*shrug* I guess 27 classes in logic & philosophy got me to the point of NOT assuming the obvious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: GUEST,Paul Date: 02 Aug 02 - 07:21 PM Amos, I'd tend to agree with Dave, above. The fact that you consider your 'dilemma' to have a right' answer, is thinking within it's own (albeit different) box. Your question has too many unknowns to give a decent answer. How do I know that the old lady is about to die? Am I presumed to have some prior medical knowledge? The best course of action for her, depending on her symptoms might well not be driving her to hospital. We aren't given enough information to know. How can I know that this is "my perfect mate" when I've not even spoken to him/her? Why does the 'right' answer involve completely putting out my mate (who may be just going one stop down the road and has already saved my life) whilst I get on with chatting up someone I've never met! Sorry, but your 'great answer' is deeply flawed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: greg stephens Date: 02 Aug 02 - 06:48 PM Open the box! (sorry,possibly UK only,that one) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Art Thieme Date: 02 Aug 02 - 05:58 PM We are moving today and I've been thinking outside the box all day long. I'm exhausted. Enough already ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 02 - 12:27 PM Redefining the question, or the problem statement, is certainly one approach to outside-boxing. It is a sad fact that neither managers nor anyone else always come up with the best statement of the problem, and the more ability-challenged they are, the more likely they are to pose the wrong problem, identify the wrong target or source of a condition, or put their attention on irrelevancies or "automatic" thinking so they can avoid the effort of plain looking. In the above example, the literal question given does not reflect the actual problem, and seeing through the linguistic red-herring is a sign of someone with a strong mind. Whether you want such a person working for you depends on how strong you are, yourself, I suppose. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Jeri Date: 02 Aug 02 - 12:18 PM There's an ability to figure out the "bottom line" which is invaluable in problem solving, but greatly resented by micro-managers. If you want folks to stay "inside the box," the above question would probably help you weed out they sort of person who could solve problems instead of just follow orders, no matter how silly those orders were. The bottom line was that only two people could fit in the guy's car. HIS car, and the boss was probably nowhere in site to tell him what to do with his car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: GUEST,Dave Haley Date: 02 Aug 02 - 12:08 PM Amos, The trouble with these 'trick' questions, is how they are phrased. You initial question is Which one would you choose to offer a ride to? The 'winner' would have failed my interview. He did the complete opposite of what I'd instucted... Dave
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Subject: Thinking Outside Boxes... From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 02 - 12:00 PM You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night. You pass by a busstop, and you see three people waiting for the bus:
1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die. Which one would you choose to offer a ride to, knowing that there could only be one passenger in your car? Think before you continue reading.
This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job application. You could pick up the old lady, because she is going to die, and thus you should save her first; or you could take the old friend because he once saved your life, and this would be the perfect chance to pay him back. However, you may never be able to find your perfect dream lover again. The candidate who was hired (out of 200 applicants) had no trouble coming up with his answer. He simply answered: "I would give the car keys to my old friend, and let him take the lady to the hospital. I would stay behind and wait for the bus with the woman of my dreams." The above is a fine example of the buzzphrase "thinking outside the box". We all sort of know what is meant, challenging assumptions and premises and so on. What kind of boxes have you broken out of over the years? I'd be interested to hear of other examples -- especially from real life! A |