BS: Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:16 PM

It all seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Though which is the pot and which is the kettle, that's the thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:08 PM

The plot thickens: The candidate of the opposition seems to have been poisoned by someone unknown before the election.

And I did smile yesterday when Putin said he does not support elections in Iraq with the US forces still being there. What has that to do with Ukraine? It was a revanche foul:

If you interfere with what I consider my elections I too can interfere with what you consider your elections.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:04 PM

The Mudcat is based in America, but there are people from all parts of the world, including a fair number from the UK. Mostly coming here in the first place because we are interested in folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Notoja
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:46 PM

Thanks for greetings, however I have to clarify that I`m not Ukrainian. I`m Pole(? - you know, from Poland)so I don`t write as a
someone who is there and see everything. But I know (I think we all know that) what say Ukrainian from east and west.

Razom nas bahato nas ne podolaty - ukr
Razem jest nas wielu nas nie pokonacie - pol
Together we are many we can`t be defeated - eng

PS. Could you tell me if it is British or American site?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:44 PM

Your English is a lot better than my Ukrainian.

Welcome to the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:59 PM

Guest Notoja, thank you for your inside perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Notoja
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:33 PM

Niech zyje wolna Ukraina!! Independent Ukraine now and forever!!!
Ukraincy - Razom was bahato, was ne podolaty!!!

Now it is time for Ukraine, and I believe that some day this will happen with Belarus and all remains of communism in eastern Europe
will be defeated. However, ther is need USA to help to this countries.
But of course USA`s goverment is afraid of what Kreml will say. All this time both European Union and USA wasn`t interested about situation in this region and thats why now there is a problem.
It is true that Juszczenko wouldn`t be the best president but better
than pro-russian Kuczma, because he is a democrate. And in real there are no so many diffrences between eastern and western Ukraine. All Ukrainians want to be together and all about any separation is only
russian wish, nothing more. And the last thing. Someone of You said that president what we want dont have to be this which want Ukrainians. Thats right but you should know that this election wasnt fair (for example in Donieck people voted many time in one name or there voted people who has died many years ago... strange, isnt it?)
eastern Ukrainias didnt have chance to know Juszczenko - in tv was only Janukowycz. Oh sorry there was Juszczenko- he was shown as a monster who will betray Ukraine and sell all mines to Americans bussinesman`s and they will close all mines in case of that Ukrainians will be unemployed.
Ok, thats it for now, sorry for my english but I hope you will understand what I have written.Narazie niech zyje Polska, Ukraina,
Bia³oruœ.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

The Bush Administration wants the Ukraine into NATO which means that they will be able to sell them missiles. The Russian opposition doesn't want into NATO. Anybody like to guess that Bush is not involved in the Ukraine election?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:36 PM

Democracy....Is simply another means of manipulation

Real democracy does not exsist.

The vultures are circling over Ukraine.Directed by Western pressure groups.
Does anyone think we have democracy in UK or USA or Russia .
One by one we are losing or freedoms and civil rights, before long we will be completely under the control of the state....ID cards, electronic tagging, silicone chip implants, a vision of the future far worse than that imagined by G Orwell.

That is what these young people and business men we see on TV are conducting their velvet revolution for.
A revolution of the powerful designed to enslave the vulnerable,

We in the West are now at the stage of massacring thousands of civilians in foreign lands to ensure their countries remain "democratic".

"Oh what a world welive in"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

Thats right McGrath. Both candidates agree on pulling out troops from Iraq. Seems that parliament is in agreement as well. I wish the people of the U.S. were as committed to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:12 PM

"A better outcome" means a demonstrably fair election. It doesn't necessarily mean any particular result. Last time round there's evidence of cheating by both sides.

One thing that's been ignored by a lot of the media - perhaps the one thing on which both candidates are agreed on is that Ukraine should withdraw its troops from Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:36 AM

It's nice to hope for a better outcome in Ukraine.

However, I share McGrath's concerns, that's there's a lot of work to be done if that new nation is going to hold itself together. But at least they'll have a chance.

The concept of "reconcilliation" comes to mind, a better concept that we outvoted you by 1% of the total vote.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:35 AM

Its a wonderful thing to see democracy alive in the hearts of the people. It is certainly a victory for the Ukrainian People. Hats off to them. Did you see their demonstrations? Did you see their faces?

What do you think Bush would do if Americans took to the streets that way?

I am very proud, too, that Canada has been asked to oversee the new vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 10:01 PM

I'd say!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM

Ukrainian Supreme Court Cancels Election Results And now they are going to have t have another vote before the end of the year.

Good to see a Supreme Court that actually does its job.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

That's an interesting dispatch - brings it closer to home for a lot of people, I'm sure.

If they do have a fresh poll, it's going to be desperately important that it's kept as honest as humanly possible. Otherwise half the country just isn't going to accept it, whichever way it goes, and God knows what could happen. The horrible example of what happened in Yugoslavia shouldn't be forgotten.

I see now that Yanukovych has suggested there should be a new election - but that both he and Yushchenko should bow out. Actually that sounds like a pretty good idea - they both appear to have some very dodgy stuff in their background, and some pretty sinister people backing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:47 PM

Here's some observations from a young U.S. Peace Corps volunteer on the ground in Ukraine:

"I have no opinion. I?ll start by saying that. I?m a United States Peace Corps volunteer in Ukraine and my aims are not political but I?m surrounded by a situation that is all politics. As the ground begins to tremble with feet pounding and voices screaming, demanding change, I wonder how to successfully stand by and watch events unfold.   

My first personal action plan was to leave the country before the primary election believing that outcome to be more emotional. I went away for three weeks traveling through Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey. I found it funny that I was warned by family and friends to take care because Turkey is a Muslim country only to return home and find ourselves sitting in the middle of an uprising.

I arrived at my current home the day before the run-off election between the current regime?s favorite, Yanukovich, and the opposition?s last hope, Yushenko. Peace Corps told me to stay indoors both Sunday, Election Day, and Monday to be sure that I stayed clear of any rallies, demonstrations or violence that could ensue if the people rejected the outcome. To say that they did reject the outcome is an understatement.

They took to the streets in one of the most peaceful and well-intentioned protests I have ever witnessed. Children remained in school while university students and most adults gathered in our city?s center at the statue of the poet and national hero, Taras Shevchenko, to make their opinions known: the government has declared Yanukovich the winner and they believe due to corruption, manipulation and threatened violence, the election?s outcome was neither fair nor legal and they demand that their candidate be given the presidency.

Now, bear in mind I live in the west. It is quite a different world from Ukraine?s east where most citizens speak Russian and identify more with the Russian mindset than a European one. But in the west it is different. In the west, people are so close to Europe they can see it in their architecture, taste it in their foods, hear it in their language which sometimes adopts Polish phrases. Europe is close to western Ukrainians and they along with supporters in other cities are making their choice heard in their support of the opposition candidate, Yushenko.

What is it like here? After our Peace Corps lockdown, I tried to resume a normal life. I went back to work and tried to absorb all that my colleagues were telling me about the current situation. I heard people were taking to the streets to protest. I heard colleagues and their friends and relatives had taken any available form of transport to Kyiv to show their support in the capital. My centrally located office was a base for local protesters and friends to come and use the toilet, drink tea and get warm before they returned to their posts on the streets. So much for staying away from politics.

Then there was the religious momentum. My colleagues said many people were going to churches to pray ? that their church was with them.

Priests were seen on the streets with the protesters, holding banners with icons, saying God was with them, and with Yushenko.

And the financial. Emails are floating asking for money to support the protesters, to support the opposition, to support the campaigns and pay for transportation. I delete because I can?t forward. I?m trying to stay away from bias. But it is hard.

At work, we listen to the radio all day, follow the updates and events of the other cities and wait for some news, some updates, some progress in their cause for justice. As of now, it has not come. It is November 29th, eight days since the election. Children are no longer in school, waiting for the outcome of the protests. ___ is quiet as the core of protesters have left the city to go to the capital. Everyone waits for the words from the Supreme Court. What could the compromise be? New elections or will the court pick a candidate as winner and anger half the country?

And so Ukraine waits. Some quietly, some loudly, some hovering around radios, some standing in the streets. All are peaceful, all passionate, all sharing in the fate to come. As we all are."


I will only add, as an ex-Peace Corps volunteer from the early 1960's, that it is naive to assume one can remain "neutral" amidst civil unrest. Your "friends" will invariably involve you, as will other more opportunist partisans if they need a convenient international pawn. However, I wish this young volunteer well, and thank him for sharing his observations with those of us in the rest of the world.

Charley Noble
Ethiopia (1965-68)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

More from Yahoo

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

Why only do I get the impression that my first post here was predictive?

Magical thinking and delusions of grandeur, most likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Davetnova
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:42 AM

Well Martin doesn't look like he's stepping in so I'll have to say it for him. These Europeans might think they do pretty good corrupt politics but there's nothing to match the good old corrupt politics we do over here in the old USofA. You can keep your second rate European Union and Eastern european governments they aint a patch on what we do in Washington. An we got all the oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:39 AM

Because it was, Wolfgantg. But only in the sense that some of those topics you mentioned are part of what has been discussed here. That has also been the case in other media coverage that I have seen. What happens in the USA is inescapably a factor in what happens in many other parts of the world, and what happens in other parts of the world can affect how events in the USA are interpreted.

What would be wrong would be for people to see important events in other countries merely as occasione to carry on disputes about the USA, or to line up on how they understand these events in a pre-conceived partisan way. I don't think most people posting here have actually done this.

....................

It's starting to look as if some kind of re-run of the election is now on the cards. That sounds a fair way out of the situation, though I imagine it might be a pretty contentious campaign.      

Maybe Ukraine has something to teach allegedly more mature democracies about how to respond to well-founded allegations of electoral malpractice.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:07 AM

Why only do I get the impression that my first post here was predictive?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

In both these 2004 elections the results do look oddly similar - in both cases the exit polls gave victory to the challenger, but the published voting figures put the Administration's man ahead by the same margin - three per cent.

Some of the allegations of cheating look pretty similar too. The big difference is that in Ukraine the one who was given as loser refused to accept the result, and denounced it as fraudulent, and spearheaded mass protests by his supporters, and anyone else who disliked the existing Administration.

Which is a pretty high risk strategy which could lead to a real, not just metaphorical, Civil War. I imagine that is why neither Gore in 2000, or Kerry in 2004, chose to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:47 PM

More from Yahoo

Warning: this article contains the dreaded *O word.

*(oil)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Boab
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:58 AM

As usual, there is just about as much fraudulent "news" manipulation about Ukraine as there was voter fraud in their recent elections--and that, I think we all agree, was quite a lot. It seems fairly plain that the Eastern Ukraine [miners and heavy industry] have been well served by the Incumbent. Interviews with some voters refer to a guarantee of regular wages payment, and better dealings with industrial workers in general. They are, I think, Russian Orthodox .The west Ukraine is inclined to lean toward greater integration with Europe. Much of the country was, not too far back, part of Poland, and the religion would probably be Roman catholicism. Latest news is that there is a strong move by the Eastern population for the setting up of an autonomous region, affiliated to Russia. Unless this is readily agreed by the West [of Ukraine], it seems to me to be a very dangerous developement in terms of --in the short term at least,---peace and stability.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:31 AM

That is if you accept that 'fraud' is the new 'F' word.

..and you know DougR, the U.S. no longer has any prestige in the world. Who cares who is the president of a country thats going down? Who cares if he is the president who killed democracy? Who cares if he is the president besides you and a bunch of Jesus Freaks? Maybe you will care a little more when you realize how worthless your dollar has become.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: DougR
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

McGrath: since it is plowing "old" ground, I won't pursue your remark about the 2000 election in the U.S. except to say that if Gore had insisted on a statewide recount things might have been different. Instead, he demanded only a recount in precints where he thought he could win. History will prove who is right.

The fact that similar complaints about the 2004 elections have not materialized, except in the minds of left-wing extremists, should put the question of who is the president of the United States at rest. It is George W. Bush. Might as well accept it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:49 PM

Well, here's my hope:

First, the Ukraine figgures out how to hold a fair election and then they teach the US...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:43 PM

More from Yahoo

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20041128/ts_nm/ukraine_dc

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:18 AM

I thought that the people of both sides were together in their demand that the voting be fair.

Sorta like in the States.

Who wins, is a moot point.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:04 PM

Word on the streets is Katerine Harris, a couple hundred lawyers and a couple thousand goons are ont their way to the Ukraine as we speak...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:53 PM

I agree - that sounded rather an over-speculative comment to throw out. I'm not clear how any politician anywhere would be able to produce evidence that "facing a severe challenge, he would not have tried to falsify the poll." Possibly there may be some background information lying behind Jonathan Steele's remark about vote-fixing that might explain it. Like Wolfgang, I confess to not knowing much about Ukraine. Apart from the fact that they have some great music and dance traditions, which isn't immediately relevant. (That's even aside from tgecEurivuision Song Contest this year)

One big difference between Western Ukraine and Eastern is that much of the former was part of Poland between the World Wars, and is predominently (Uniate) Catholic. It was annexed by Stalin during the Nazi-Soviet Pact period, in 1939, and re-incorporated into Ukraine.

The only thing that does seem clear to me is that this is a lot more complicated than some reports have been indicating, and that this is a very dangerous situation. The example of what happened in Yugoslavia should be a warning to foreign politicians of the dangers of clumsy and simplistic meddling.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:20 PM

Nor is there much evidence to imagine that, were he the incumbent president facing a severe challenge, he would not have tried to falsify the poll. (Guardian article)

The Guardian is my first choice newspaper when in Britain but such a sentence raises all my hairs. (don't know if you have such an expression)

El Greko has made that remark about an East-West divide in Ukraine. Our news present it very similarly. The East seems to look to Russia, the West seems to look to the other side. Does anyone know about ethnic or religious or language divides between the two parts of the country? I know close to nothing about that.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:18 PM

Putin's fears for the status of Russia are understandable...power politics as usual...but hard to sympathize with. I suspect the Americans are backing one side from behind the scenes with money and support, and the Russians the other, for the usual financial and strategic reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

Perhaps a division of the country - that worked so well in Ireland, remember...and there is a religious divide in the Ukraine too, isn't there...and half of the country richer than the other half too...

Maybe the USA, as always, would like to fund and arm its favoured faction.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM

Agreed that a discussion about what's actually happening in the Ukraine would be a good idea - I've got a feeling we are being presented with a rather over-simplified picture in the media. The impression comes across to me that there are some pretty unpleasant people involved in this on both sides. The oligarch's who profited from the

Here's a thought-provoking articlem in today's Guardian which suggests it's a lpt more complicated than the way it's being presented.
Ukraine's postmodern coup d'etat

"Some protesters have been chanting nationalistic and secessionist songs from the anti-semitic years of the second world war.

"Nor are we watching a struggle between freedom and authoritarianism as is romantically alleged. Viktor Yushchenko, who claims to have won Sunday's election, served as prime minister under the outgoing president, Leonid Kuchma, and some of his backers are also linked to the brutal industrial clans who manipulated Ukraine's post-Soviet privatisation.

"On some issues Yushchenko may be a better potential president than Yanukovich, but to suggest he would provide a sea-change in Ukrainian politics and economic management is naive. Nor is there much evidence to imagine that, were he the incumbent president facing a severe challenge, he would not have tried to falsify the poll.

All revolutions seem to end up with the ordinary people who made them betrayed. That doesn't mean they aren't necessary.

...............................

As for the question of people bringing in parallels with US elections - well, with the US administration taking a leading role in denouncing fraudulent election practice, that was pretty inevitable. And it's not just the Mudcat - in all the letter pages or discussion programmes, which I have seen in recent days, when the Ukraine was mentioned, this aspect has alwasy been raised. Perhaps the pot actually is blacker than the kettle, in this case, but...

Some of the indications of fraud which have been reported from the Ukraine elections have distinct parallels in what has been alleged in respect of US elections - including the case where more people were reported to have voted in one area than the actual number of registered voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM

The US and several (perhaps most, I haven't heard) have rejected the Ukrainian election -- seems like the observers said that it was corrupt. Hmmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:52 AM

Several generals have publicly declared their support for the opposition. Nothing short of brute force can now stop that movement. Putin should try to smile and congratulate the new leadership.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:11 AM

No one actually mentioned Bush, or any of those things, Wolfgang (McGrath)

McGrath, I had thought about starting a thread about Ukraine and when I saw this title I hoped for a good discussion and was very disappointed about how it started. 'New world order' was explicitely mentioned (contrary to your claim in that quote above) and without mentioning the name Bush the elections in the USA were alluded to more than once (or I must be very much mistaken in reading between the lines). That my mentioning of oil would make any further mentioning of it a bit less likely was not surprising.

I've often been disappointed that all the discussions of local or world problems comes back so quickly to the same sort of discussion. It looks to me that wherever a discussion starts off it always ends along the same lines. And this time it even looked like it already started along the same lines. That's why I introduced the third ingredient for the same cake.


It was pretty good watching last night in TV what happens in Ukraine. It looks like a very peacful and forceful movement even joined by parts of the security forces. One can only hope the solution will be peaceful. To hand the decision to the courts could be good or not. I don't know what to think of it. It could mean two things:
(1) A way out of the dilemma and a way to new elections or
(2) Buying time until the strikes die down, then hand over the election to the Kremlin's favourite and hope that the opposition cannot again organise a further strong support as it can now.

Putin fears for the status of Russia. With the problems in the South (Chechens are only one people on the way out) and more of the new countries around Russia moving away from Moscow towards other centres (like the EU), Russia is on the way down to being the home of ethnic Russians. All the countries conquered during the Tsars times make up much more than half of the USSR area. If one looks at a historical map showing how large Russia was in, say, 1600, then one knows what Putin fears.

Wolfgang

(Little Hawk, you can PM me or come back to the other thread, but I won't respond in this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM

Dishonesty amongst politicians is only a matter of degree. They're all liars to some extent...

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Boab
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

Doug--I trust you are aware that I had no hand in either of the last two presidential elections in your country. Like most of the world ["free" and otherwise] I sat back in amazement as the sermons and stories of voter confusion etc., unfolded. I trust, too, that you are aware that since the USA economy and foreign policy have a great effect on the economy and conditions globally, we who are obliged to look in from the outside are at least entitled to concern and comment?
I am somewhat re-assured by the involvement of the Ukrainian courts in the matter of the election outcome. I do hope, when the result is finally settled, that the Ukrainian Nation becomes quickly integrated/involved with either the European Union or, alternatively, with Russia. Either option would tend to ensure stability.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

Pay no attention, Doug. I'm just fed up with Wolfgang due to his constant cynical attacks on people's spiritual beliefs (or their theories about such matters), that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM

The only mention of oil I've seen in this thread is from Wolfgang.

That's a distortion of the truth, Doug. The main complaint against the 2000 election was that a crucial count was interrupted, in order to favour one candidate who happened to be ahead at the time, and that there were numerous voting irregularities.

The complaints about the Electoral College system was that it produced a perverse result, and that the system needed to be reformed - which is the complaint that Doug's compadrés would surely have made, if the vote in Ohio had been a little bit different this time, and Kerry had got to the White House with three million votes less than Bush.

Anyway, I'm sure we all hope that the situation in Ukraine (where they don't have an Electoral College) means that the winner is the candidate that the Ukrainians actually want.

And that their Supreme Court does an honest job in determining that, or ordering a fresh election if the electoral regularities are serious enough to have prevented a fair election.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:52 PM

Doug there is more than one way to rig an election .

Like lying to the electorate for example, especially when the other candidate is unable or unwilling to contradict...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

"Bite you?" Are you inviting Wolfgang to do something he might not be interested in doing L.H.?

Wolfgang is right. No political discussion on the Mudcat without the mention of oil. Somebody's got it and we (the U. S. of course) gotta have it!

I assume you naysayers are not condoning a questionable election are you? Surely not.

Boab: Catch up! You are still fighting the election of 2000. There has been an election since that time and Bush won both the Popular and Electorial vote by a comfortable margin.

For four long years those of us who support Bush had to listen to you Bush bashers complain that he wasn't legally president because Al Gore won the popular vote. Those of us who are educated knew that was not the way we elect our presidents, but we had to put up with it. Now you bitch because the President won both the EC and PV.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:12 PM

Sounds like a pretty apt Axis of Evil to me, Bobert.

And Wolfgang? May I speak for myself and a number of others here and say....








BITE ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM

It's with the Ukraine Supreme Court now...
...............................

The media coverage in this seems to focus on two things - one is the coverage of the street demos, which is fair enough, because they are very photogenic and courageous, and the other is a constant reiteration of the statement that the opposition leader who says he's been robbed is pro-western.

But there doesn't seem to be any effort I've seen to report on the actual facts of the election, and whether the evidence for fraud actually stacks up convincingly. I suspect that it does - but the media seem to be playing it as if what really matters is that the man we want to win should win, rather than that the winner should be the one that the Ukrainians want.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:20 AM

Right on Bobert!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:31 PM

Ahhhh. like how do you spell USSR? Screw democracy... It is such a waste of time...

How come I don't think the world would be so messed up if it weren't for the US's bad example at home with it's own failed democracy???...
I mean, like if the US can't pull it off why expect anyone else to???

My axis of evil: Bush, Blair and Putinhead...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Boab
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:01 PM

I trust Colin Powell was making a PERSONAL comment. It would take some brass neck to speak for the USA. George Bush, after all, was "elected" on a minority of the votes cast two elections ago, and they're still counting the votes for the last one!
The opinion of one uninvolved Scot [though very interested] matters not a jot, but for the record I am convinced there was some "jiggery-pokery" in the Ukraine election. Can we PLEASE let them sort it out by themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

No one actually mentioned Bush, or any of those things, Wolfgang.

What seems to be happening in the Ukraine is pretty impressive. I only hope it doesn't all go horribly wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:31 PM

Could someone please mention 'oil'?

Then we have all the words together that make a Mudcat discussion on politics so predictable:

(1) Bush has not been elected
(2) New world order
(3) Oil and profit

Applicable to each problem in each part of the world. Then we only need Martin Gibson to enter for a completely dumbed down discussion using nothing but preformulated slogans.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

One difference is that the people who think they've been robbed by electoral fraud are being a bit more determined than they were in another place.

It's all a bit weird isn't it? "Secretary of State Colin Powell on Wednesday rejected the results of Ukraine's disputed presidential election and warned the authorities of "consequences" if they do not investigate the alleged fraud." (Reuters November 24th)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM

The problem is that East Ukraine supports one candidate, while the West half supports the other. Pretty equally balanced, which could render the country ungovernable.

Now, that reminds me...

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Peace
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

No point talkin' morals in a house of ill repute. That's what world politics is.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

Ah...the sweet, sweet irony.

Well it's only fair, for those of us who missed out on the first one, that we should get 'Cold War 2- The Sequel!'...

I don't think it's going to happen, though. Putin needs to behave, or he won't get help to tap into Russias natural resources. He's made a start by retracting his congratulations for Yanukovych...

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

The thing is, all they exit polls showed the opposition leader as winning. But when the official result came out, it was announced that the sitting President had won after all.

Now that sounds oddly reminsiscent of something...

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Fishpicker
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM

"Its a free for all, grab what you can..."

So, whats new?



                         FP

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM

So much for the famous "new world order".
Its a free for all, grab what you can...

Subject: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

Just saw Colin Powell on TV lecturing Ukranian Govt on electoral fraud,what a joke!!

Looks like US may be about to take on Russia!!


Oh what a world we live in....Ake