Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Gurney
Date: 19 May 05 - 05:49 AM

Can't say it bothers me either, I like to help if I can, and I like to be on Mudcat. I've also found the search engine not very co-operative.

I could retort to the initial thread: Perhaps you should learn to JOIN Mudcat before you criticise. Or have the courtesy to use your real handle, if you are a member.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 May 05 - 03:58 AM

For me anyone can ask anything. If I can help I will. Satisfies the asker and makes me feel good.
PS Not everyone will acknowledge help, but that's life.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:25 PM

Amen to "GUEST tired of resetting cookie":

Amen to everything you say about searching vs asking, especially your appreciation for those "tangents" that always seem to develop, and...

Amen, too, to being tired of the nasty old backdoor!

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:20 PM

If you are intelligent and have been blessed with a talent for rapid effective searching, be glad and share it with other people, stop shushing them, it's mean-spirited and unworthy of folk folk.

I agree- but I also think it's fair to ASK people nicely to search first. After all, the idea isn't search and shut up-- it's just to try searching first.

If people hear that as shushing, that's on them. I think very few of us mean it that way.

~S~

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,tired of resetting cookie
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:06 PM

My 2 cents: I always do a search first. Frequently the search function fails or hangs up, but often I find what I want and wander off quietly with my lyrics in hand. Like everyone I would like it if people checked out the obvious first.

However, I'm tired of the incessant demands for people to do their own research first (the only exception, the creepy students who come here first hoping to be spoon-fed term paper material). I usually forage through the library on my own too, using the card catalog etc. But you know what, often the dummy who just walks in the door and throws himself at the reference librarian is the one who finds out the good stuff. It's OKAY to talk about stuff with other people sometimes. They often know more than what has already been recorded.

I LIKE the threads that dredge up old forgotten songs because they go off on tangents I didn't know about and AREN'T in the old threads. And also, I understand some people aren't real smart, or can't read road maps, some can't do effective searches, and some can't spell or can't think of what distinctive phrases to feed into the search engine. Often the right brain talent for art and music is well developed but the left brain verbal organization is lacking.   GET OVER IT! If you are intelligent and have been blessed with a talent for rapid effective searching, be glad and share it with other people, stop shushing them, it's mean-spirited and unworthy of folk folk.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 05 - 10:39 AM

If you find an existing thread on a song, there's no need to start another one. You can post lyrics and request chords or a tune in a Lyr req thread, and most people will find your request. And generally, it's a very bad idea to start a new thread to answer a question in an existing thread.

If you're responding with information that has already been posted, it's best to give a link to the location where you found the information. Copy-pasting information that's already here can really be confusing. There are exceptions, but generally it's not good to copy-paste stuff that has already been posted elsewhere.

I wonder if somebody might be able to convince Sh----es of the wisdon of that....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:14 AM

Surprised you've never learnt to recognise when someone's joking back with you. :~)

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:57 AM

Surprised you've never learnt to recognise irony.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:33 PM

:~) It has..... now that you mention it....

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:29 PM

surprised this has never been brought up as a thread before ;-)

Subject: Example of changed subject line
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM

No need to start a new Lyr Add thread. The person who adds the lyrics to a thread in progress can just change the subject line of their post to read Lyr Add: *Title*. This will flag it for harvesting.

At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:09 PM

Are current problems at Mudcat partly the result of an excess and variety of stored threads, above the capacity of the system? This question has been asked before, but never answered. Just what hardware and software is used? Is it just (or not quite) adequate, held together by baling wire and duct tape? Can it meet future needs?

Unfortunately, people refuse to do homework before they post. Granted that it can be difficult, for the reasons pointed out by WYSIWYG, but the attempt could be made, saving on the search time required. If the information already is cached in mudcat, thoughtlessly going through another cycle of question and answer is cretinous.

"A quick answer from stored knowledge." Impossible, when threads replicate without control, driven by a "what, me worry?" attitude.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:08 PM

I don't think there is an either/or answer. I'm just glad some of you can see the problem.

I sure don't want to preclude new angles and ideas, either-- but I guess I don't see how simply refreshing the older thread with the new info or question would preclude that. I DO realize that when people DO do that, often the new question or idea is lost in the sea of posts-- if I post a year later than the last of the old thread's posts, pretty soon that new post of mine is hard to spot-- it's hard to make a new starting-point without starting a new thread. OTOH if a Part Two is started, no one bothers to go back and review Part One so the same already-answered questions usually go around and around in the Part Two.

I'm frustrated about this but I hope no one takes it as an attack-- I just wish there was a simple and elegant solution that didn't consume clone-time.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:55 PM

I enjoy many of the discussions that ensue when a person asks a question that they could have answered privately, by doing the requisite searches, etc. I would hate to surpress the asking of questions, no matter how naive or repetitive (as if we could, but that's another matter...).

As others have pointed out, many interesting side issues are brought up and discussed, we learn who amongst each other is interested in the same stuff as ourselves, and a good time is generally had by all.

I think the ones who enjoy it most might be those quick-on-the-trigger regulars who so often manage to supply a (correct) answer within minutes. (Of course, there are others who appear just as regularly and just as quickly to issue a curmudgeonly "Look it up your own d**n self!")

The only problem, the only really valid complaint, as far as I can see, comes once the question gets answered, creating an item of potentially archivable data residing in a random "scattered" location. I can certainly see how this is undesirable.

How can we best handle supplying an answer, without adding any more work than necessary to the burden assumed by our volunteer administrators? Would it help to create a new "LYR ADD" thread in addition to the response within the thread created to ask the question? It would be easy enough to respond in a post within the thread and then to copy-and-paste the essential info (lyrics or whatever) into a new thread. Is this a helpful suggestion?

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:42 PM

I enjoy many of the discussions that ensue when a person asks a question that they could have answered privately, by doing the requisite searches, etc. I would hate to supress the asking of questions, no matter how naive or repetitive.

As others have pointed out, many intersting side issues are brought up and discussed, we learn who amongst each other is interested in the same stuff as ourselves, and a good time is generally had by all.

I think the ones who enjoy it most might be those quick-on-the-trigger regulars who so often manage to supply a (correct) answer within minutes. (Of course, there are others who appear just as regularly and just as quickly to issue a curmudgeonly "Look it up your own d**n self!")

The only problem, the only really valid complaint, as far as I can see, comes once the question gets answered, creating an item of potentially archivable data residing in a random "scattered" location. I can certainly see how this is undesirable.

How can we best handle supplying an answer, without adding any more work than necessary to the burden assumed by our volunteer administrators? Would it help to create a new "LYR ADD" thread in addition to the response within the thread created to ask the question? It would be easy enough to respond in a post within the thread and then to copy-and-paste the essential info (lyrics or whatever) into a new thread. Is this a helpful suggestion?

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: mg
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:01 PM

I absolutely choose the first way..a place to get a quick answer from stored knowledge. No way do i confuse it with a site to do serious scholarship or research legal copyright issues etc...it is to me the equivalent of a conversation i could have..and if i have the same conversation ten different ways with ten groups of people it is totally fine with me. Of course i do realize there are serious scholars here, as well as lawyers etc...and if they want to answer a question i pose, fine, if not fine...mg

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:26 AM

There is probably no way to ever keep a one to one ratio between threads and songs. Some people will start new threads for songs previously discussed, but often 'one' song is anything but a single song. The recent "Wish I Was Single" discussions demonstrate this as clearly as anything else. And if we're dealing with 'floating' verses and melodies, or lyrical themes, a discussion could end up miles away from where it began.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:00 AM

of course redundant and mutiple threads was one reason someone-who-won't-be-named began to condense, index and combine various threads resulting in the irritation of someone else who proceeded to complain about censorship when the actions were really just meant to reduce clutter and increase utility of the site.

But that's a whole 'nother issue.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 May 05 - 10:56 AM

Susan, I hear what you're saying, and agree with a lot of it. But as others have pointed out, if someone asks a question without extensive searching, it often genearates interest in an obscure topic. Also, it may perhaps let some of us know who else in the world shares our own interest in a specialist area. Yes, this may create clutter, and redundant information, but it may equally well draw attention to the latest ideas, which may have added something to things posted ;ong before.
    Whatever you do may well be wrong in some ways, and right in others. And the results are completely unpredictable. So, in my opinion, ask the question, and put up with a little abuse from the old curmudgeons.. Unless it is who wrote Dirty Old Town or This Land is Your Land, in which case, bloody well look it up.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,WYSIWYG
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:48 AM

The problem with multi-threading is obvious when one comes along and DOES search a song. When there are pages of results for one single song it gets pretty hairy trying to extract and make sense of the actual information in the plethora of threads. It's much, much easier to sort it all out and find the gold in all the raw ore when there are fewer threads. The tone of the concerns expressed here is not churlish, but FRUSTRATED.

And it's not a matter of bandwidth-- it's the difference between researching a song in an organized way and finding it among a bunch of slips of paper flung all over the place.

I guess it boils down to this-- does one see Mudcat as a place to quickly check in with members' knowledge and get a fast (if not correct or complete) answer, or does one see it as a place where one does one's own homework to see what has already been contributed?

Google and fastspeed internet tend to have created a value in present society that makes us feel like "quick" equals "good." But say I come along this afternoon and ask, in a new thread, "Tell me about xxxx song." Say someone who has heard misinformation about its authorship and origin comes along and answers me, assuring me it's Trad, public-domain, and comes from the UK. Say I record the song on that say-so, the American author catches wind of it, and demands legal satisfaction-- now assume that the TRUE information about the song was here all along, and I didn't bother to check through all the older threads? Or say I tried to, but there were so many I gave up and went with the quick-fix that told me what I wanted to hear?

Who would be the prat, then?

It's time we got over using Mudcat as a live-chat or a specialized Google, and used what has been so wonderfully cached for us by people who went before us. IMO people ought to take some responsibility for finding what they need, themselves, like adults.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 04:52 AM

How churlish! The only person with a problem is the thread originator, so carry on. Are they worried valuable band width will be taken that could be used bickering below stairs?

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Gypsy
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:03 PM

Eh, sometimes the search box doesn't work for me either......case in point, the three tunes i was looking for recently. It's nice to check first, but if someone doesn't, or doesn't know how, whats the big deal? As long as the discussion occurs, and the question is answered!

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:04 PM

" Is better hardware needed?"

And better software...

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:03 PM

One good thing about searching yourself is that you can get extra information.

I have just got the words to "My Father" written by Judy Collins from a website which tells me that she also wrote Farewell to Tarwathie.

Judy sings Farewell to Tarwathie beautifully but it was written by a Scotsman called James Scroggie.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Yes, I have the back door, but if the normal procedure doesn't work, I'm not going to post any songs, etc., since they might get jumbled.
Generally if the front door is closed or too creaky, the search doesn't work anyway.

Is better hardware needed?

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:34 PM

"as to Mudcat and reliability, "It's a wonder the dog talks at all!"

That's the stupidest 'comparison' I've ever heard

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:32 PM

Here ya go Bill.

Guy and his dog in a bar. The bets get placed. $10,000 riding on it. The guy says his dog can talk.

He says to the dog, "What's on top of a house?" Dog says, "ROOF!"

Next he asks the dog what its paw feels like when he rubs it on sandpaper. The dog says, "RUFF!"

Last, he asks the dog to name the greatest baseball player of all time. The dog says, "RUTH!"

Needless to say, they get booted out of the bar. On the sidewalk, the dog looks at his owner and asks, "Do you think I should have said Dimaggio?"

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:23 PM

you probably have a setting in your browser to discard all cookies when you close it. There 'should' be a way to tell it certain sites whose cookies you wan't to NOT throw away. (I don't use IE, so I can't tell you that particular one......but Opera, Mozilla, Firefox...and IE...all have that trick available somewhere in the menus.

as to Mudcat and reliability, I remember the punchline to an old joke: "It's a wonder the dog talks at all!"

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Reiver 2
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:33 AM

See there! I just learned something new. I guess it's necessary to reset that darn cookie every day, or you get the Guest label applied. I learned to reset it after a long absence, but just reset it yesterday and assumed it would still be set today. Not so.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 05 - 10:26 AM

I've made the mistake of not searching first, many times. It took me awhile to learn how to use the DigiTrad and Forum searches. I'm getting better and TRY to do a search first but sometimes even that doesn't work. Yesterday I had a question about a song and did a search for the title I had, "Maggie Lawder." The search turned up a blank. As it turned out, if I had searched "Maggie Lauder" I would have found just about everything I wanted! It's sometimes difficult to try to imagine all the different spellings of names, etc. and check out all of them.

I think one reason we sometimes just start a new thread is that the Mudcat is so darn GOOD and efficient! I always look forward to the various comments that are forthcoming, and it's fun to get to know some of the really interesting and knowledgeable people who lurk here. One learns so much by asking questions on the Forum.

Still, I'll try to always search first, though I can't say how much I appreciate the attitude of those who say - and continually prove - that they enjoy answering questions and providing information. I count myself among them, though I don't have near the amount of answers or information that others have.

(I love that quote from Foolestroupe!)

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 05 - 08:57 AM

Rules are for the guidance of the wise,
and blind obedience by fools.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:57 AM

Q, some time back I put the back door address in my bookmark/favorites list so if that door opens I get my fix. I originally got the address from 'The Annexe', the alternative site that Pip Freeman and Jon maintain. If you don't have the address for the Annexe, it's easy to get through Google, either using that name or jonbanjo.

I also bookmarked the Mudcat Help Forum. That way I find out if I'm the only one left in the cold.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:24 AM

I note that Sorch said IF not WHEN...

Good call hun...

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:37 AM

Unfortunately the Mudcat is missing on a few cylinders (5 of 6?).
The best procedure is to wait until the search engine is working. Let's hope that a cure is possible. We seem to get little information about why the website is so weak.

This back door business is nonsense unless the key is available to everyone, prominently displayed on the home page!

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:42 PM

Thank you very much. At last I am gonna find out how the search engine works.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,S"U"SBS
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:39 PM

Brucie,

"U" have a reply from me to your question in the wildflower thread Sir.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:21 PM

Well there are rules and rules and rules and some folks
just cannot help theyselves. They jest see rules as challenges.
It's the free spirit in'm, I guess

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:49 PM

It's OK advice IF the front door is open. If only the back door is open, you do have to use a search engine. Supersearch, etc only work if the front door is open.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:47 PM

SUSBS,

Please see the "wildflowers for Mary" thread. Asked you a question there.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:38 PM

Not bad advice when the subject is songs. I have been guilty of that numerous times--posting song lyrics that already exist in the DT. So, doing the search is a good thing, IMO. As to forum topics below the line, yes and no.

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,Miriam
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:25 PM

Who asked without searching first? It wasn't me!

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: mg
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:17 PM

me too. I don't mind a bit. mg

Subject: RE: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:16 PM

Or go ahead and ask anyway. I have enough time to give directions and assistance to just about anyone.

Subject: Suggestion: Please Learn To Search First
From: GUEST,Searchin' You Should Be Searchin'
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:08 PM

When you "Create (an) Initial Message for (a) Thread" and reach that page, after you type in a Thread subject, please read this:

"Have You Checked The DigiTrad or Forum for This Topic First?"

near the top of the page just beneath the Quick Links and the Main Menu of The Mudcat Cafe AND just above the Lyrics & Knowledge Search box.

Please search the DigiTrad and/or Forum for the requested topic first.

I was often guilty of this, but I learned to read a bit first and follow directions.

Paraphrasing an oldie:

searchin' you should be searchin', searchin' till your searchin' comes true.

Thanks (not the management or a Clone)