BS: Joe Biden for prez?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 01:09 PM

I'm not telling people who to vote for and who not to vote for. I'm not even saying who I would or would not vote for. I just think that a well informed voter is the best kind of voter. Let's put all the cards on the table for everyone to evaluate for him or herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 06:56 AM

He promoting himself as an "anti-war" candidate, as you put it. But he came out at immediately against the war, the Patriot Act, and the excesses of the Bush administration, and his voting record shows that--not just the PR. He is also one of the very few senators actually working on PROGRESSIVE reforms rather than regressive, pro-business reforms.

No one should mistake any candidate as an anti-war candidate, especially when they aren't running as one. He was against the Iraq war. He is not anti-war. One needs to make these distinctions about candidates when evaluating them. If the only candidate YOU are willing to vote for is a pacifist, that's fine. But I'm comfortable enough with his voting record, and believe he would bring the troops home in short order if elected.

For chrissake, this is US politics and politicians we are talking about. We don't have Jimmy Stewart candidates or god to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:33 PM

He's being promoted as an anti-war candidate. Personally, I don't think he can be relied upon to be an anti-war president if he gets elected. If someone decides to vote for him because of his "anti-war" record, they might be in for a surprise if he gets elected.

If people vote for him for other reasons, they might not mind too much if he doesn't turn out to be an anti-war president.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:11 PM

Carol, I don't know what your beef is with Feingold, but you are barking up the wrong tree with me. I cut my teeth in the grassroots activism biz as a no nuker. I don't see you offering any alternative solutions about what should be done about nuclear proliferation.

Now, if you were talking about the Bush administration giving India a pass on nuke proliferation, I'd be right there. If you were talking about the dangers of China becoming the nuclear superpower it has been threatening to become for 3 decades, I'd be with you.

But all you seem to do is say Feingold = Bush. And that is just bullshit. He isn't remotely close to Bush, Repub Lite, or the Democratic Leadership Council conservative wing of the Democratic party.

Like I said, I don't know why you keep trying to portray Feingold as a Bush Democrat, but it simply makes you look like a member in good standing of the Know Nothing Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 12:58 PM

I don't see any substantial difference between this rhetoric from Feingold, and rhetoric from Bush and his people during the period leading up to the US invasion of Iraq. I think if Feingold gets elected, he will take the US to war with Iran, if Bush hasn't already accomplished that first...

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/06/01/2006131CR.html

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:27 AM

Barry, that is why Russ Feingold is the ONLY Democrat who offers a real alternative to Bush & Bush Lite Dems. He voted against the war, he is still against the war, was the first senator to call for the troops to come home by a set date, and the only senator to stand up on the Senate floor and say "censure Bush".

Also, was the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act.

Also, is the Democratic senator to work with McCain to start the ball rolling on campaign finance reform (and no, he doesn't consider the job finished any more than McCain does).

In other words, he is the only Democrat who is a viable candidate because of a clear, consistent record throughout two terms of the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:16 AM

I'd have to agree with Carol's thinking that those dems that voted for the war & backed Bush aren't presidental material. If they truly thought the war was a good thing in the fist place, I can't vote for them. If they thought that the war was a good thing in the begining but change their stance when public opinion begange to sway then I can't vote for them either. Unless it comes to "Settle for lesser of two weevils". We're gonna end up with a poor choice, IMHO.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:04 AM

That is because Americans are brainwashed from birth into believing their country has a moral imperative to be dictator of the world. It doesn't make them right.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:17 AM

Well, that's one point of view, Carol. I doubt that you would find many people in this country who agree with you, regardless of where they stand on our Iraq policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM

At this point in time, United States is the equivalent of the Axis powers against whom the US fought in WWII, Whistle Stop, except that the Axis powers did not have first strike nuclear capabilities, unlike the US, which does have those capabilities, and the will to use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

In politics, it's not usually a good idea to take an absolute, categorical stand on an issue....he never knows when he'll have to back down and explain why it couldn't be avoided.

On reading more of Kucinich's ideas, I think that he could be a very useful advisor to a president, and voice of reason on many issues, but just cannot believe his 'style' and administrative abilities would work well as the "front man".

*sigh*...the political climate sure doesn't bode well for getting ANY competent, thoughtful candidate to run OR win.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:15 PM

It's worth noting that all three Axis powers in WWII were sovereign nations. That doesn't mean that they were the equivalent of the nations we went to war with this time, but it does mean that a categorical refusal to attack and/or meddle in the political processes of sovereign nations would be a pretty sweeping policy change for the US. I can't imagine a responsible Presidential aspirant taking such a position, and I certainly wouldn't vote for one who did.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM

I should modify this statement...

Personally, I think anyone who woud stick to their principles instead of selling themselves for votes would make a very good president... if they could get elected.

It should probably read more like this...

Personally, I think anyone who woud stick to their principles and the rule of law instead of selling themselves for votes would make a very good president... if they could get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:00 PM

I think you're right about the first part, Bill. There aren't many potential "candidates" who would take such a stance. Primarily, in my opinion, because they know they don't stand much of a chance against the political machine in this country for getting elected. Although I disagree with your suggestion that someone who would take such a stance would not be a good president on other matters. Personally, I think anyone who woud stick to their principles instead of selling themselves for votes would make a very good president... if they could get elected.

Here's what Kucinich has to say about how the US should behave toward the rest of the world. He's a lone voice of sanity awash in a sea of madness, as far as I'm concerned...

www.kucinich.us/issues/internatcoop.php

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/national_security.php

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/terrorism.php

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

well, Carol, I am not sure we'd find many candidates in either party who would swear that they would never 'interfere' in any way in the affairs of any sovereign nation....and if we did, I'm not sure they'd be a good president on other matters. Did Kucinich say he would abstain?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 07:33 AM

For quite a while now Biden has been suggesting that it is likely he will run for President in '08. I didn't see the Maher show, but if he did use the show to take a step closer to issuing an official announcement, it should not surprise anyone.

Speaking as one who also supported taking Saddam out, but is appalled at how badly it has been handled, I have a lot of common ground with Biden. I think he sees the world clearly, and has the smarts to move this country in a better direction. Yeah, he's got bad hair, and isn't particularly good looking; unfortunately, that stuff matters, more so now than ever before. But I think he'd be a good choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:19 PM

It's still meddling in the political processes of sovereign countries, whether it's done violently or through covert means, Bill. The US has a long history of doing this sort of thing, and it always comes back to bite us on the ass, as well as causing the deaths of untold thousands (probably millions) of innocent people and creating chaos, upheaval, and other kinds of gruelling conditions in their home countries.

We need to stop interfering in the political processes of sovereign nations, and Biden has made it clear that he is not the man to bring a stop to this practice by the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM

I see what the site says..." Biden favored removing Saddam Hussein from power but he believes the Administration rushed to war and didn't have a plan to win the peace."

I don't SEE that this obviously shows he favors " violent military action by the US against sovereign countries"...*shrug*...pretty big stretch.

If I had written the web page, I'd have said something more like "He believed that Saddam was not good for Iraq, and that having him REMOVED from power was a worthy goal." ...but Biden's stated position still does not say HOW he would have suggested this removal take place.

"It's good enough for me" is a nice song lyric, but kind of a hair-trigger response in RT, it seems to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:21 PM

I'm going by this from Biden's website, Bill, not his voting record...

Sen. Biden favored removing Saddam Hussein from power

See the link in my first post in this thread.

That right there is enough for me. I don't need any more evidence that Biden favored removing Saddam Hussein from power. And if he favored that, he is a suporter of regime change through violent military action by the US against sovereign countries. Doesn't matter whether or not he thinks Bush went about it in the most effective way. What matters is that he thinks it's perfectly ok for the US to violently overthrow sovereign governments and to attack and wage war against other countries in order to remove governments that the US government doesn't like. That's enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:10 PM

back up there ↑ Carol C said " Both of them supported the US invasion of Iraq."

I really wish people would be careful how they toss out those kinds of comparisons. It is similar to the "he voted for it before he voted against it" attempts to ridicule Kerry. What Kerry and others did was to give the administration the benefit of the doubt and assume they had some genuine intelligence supporting going into Iraq.

Fine...when it turned out they had faulty info., they changed their minds! (Flip-flopping!)

Pointing out the naked voting records of those you don't like with no context or qualifications is not always indicative of their overall position.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:52 PM

"This speech was a positive step. I hope it signifies new candor by the President on Iraq. He has a lot of work to do to regain the support of the American people.

"The President did a better job laying out where we are and where we're trying to go in Iraq, but failed to tell us how or when we're going to get there.

Joe Biden for President of Republican Lite!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:01 AM

Perhaps many Delawarians have bad hair too?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:27 AM

Yes I did see Biden on HBO.
Yes he did announce he is running.
When asked if he was running, he directly said "Yes".
He spoke without double talk and explained the convoluted problems in Iraq.


There is no doubt that Joe will get the nomination
at least from those who have hair plugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:13 AM

I will not vote for any more DINOs (Democrat in name, only). That includes Biden and Clinton. I am nauseated with the Dems support for the war, for the Sup Ct. nominees, for their lack of courage in pressing the election fraud issue, censure, and impeachment, and for their general lack of a message and talking points.

Feingold is about the only one on the national scene I think I could vote for for pres. Anyone else, and I will sit on my vote for pres, or vote for a third or fourth party. And that sentiment applies to lesser races, too, like Congressrep, Senator, and state and local races. I vow to only vote for Dems who know what it is to BE a Dem and announce it proudly and with conviction. This is my answer to the DLC and its bankrupt, losing ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM

I also haven't seen any candidate come out in support of legalizing gay civil marriage, except Feingold. There is a referendum on gay marriage on the Wisconsin ballot this year, so he had to take a stand on the issue.

Which I'm sure was the point of the exercise of putting the amendment on the ballot in Wisconsin, as it is everywhere else: to get Democratic politicians to publicly take a stand in favor of legalizing same sex civil marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:43 AM

If it were McCain Feingold, we would at least have some clear choices. Like a choice between two candidates who differ substantially on the issues. If the race turns out to be yet another DLC Repub Lite hack vs any Republican, the Republican will win. Guaranteed.

The upcoming elections are now the Democrats to lose. And my fearless prediction is: the Democrats will lose, because they are every bit as corrupt as the Repubs.

Folks around here seem to have conveniently forgotten names like Jim Wright...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:24 AM

It's certainly true that the voters in 2008 may well be in a mood to throw out anybody in the least tainted with support of the criminally stupid Iraq war, which the despicable Bush regime misled the country into. We'll see. The way it looks now, 2008 is McCain's to lose--if, as I said, he survives his own primaries--and is healthy enough. Years in a North Vietnamese prison cannot have helped his health. And he ain't no spring chicken.

Did anybody see him on Jon Stewart recently?. Jon took him to task for giving the commencement speech at Falwell's college--after McCain strongly criticized Falwell earlier. Can you say "flip-flop?" But McCain defended himself well.


But a lot can happen between now and 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:41 PM

Just saw the plug for Feingold. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that he won't be any different than Biden or McCain when it comes to taking the US to war with Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:12 PM

I certainly agree with you two. And what really does Biden bring to the table? I can't think of a single thing, including (or perhaps, especially) those all important electoral votes. I think Delaware has, like 2/8ths of an electoral vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:00 PM

McCain doesn't have a snowball's chance.

The "Base" that put Bush in office hates him and the middle of the road voters are disgusted with his support of Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:58 PM

Personally, I don't really know if there is any significant difference between someone like McCain and someone like Biden. Both of them supported the US invasion of Iraq. I'm inclined to believe, based on Biden's record, that he would be just as quick as McCain to take us to war against Iran, or Syria.

Six of one, half dozen of another.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:56 PM

And I say that not because of any electability factor, but because I genuinely believe we would have a fairly even match between two white guys who would actually put country before party, and do what they thought was right.

While both are very politically savvy Washington Senate insiders, both are very savvy players and neither has sold out to the highest bidders again and again and again the way the DLC "potential" candidates I list above have.

Which would include Kerry's running mate wazzizname, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:52 PM

Uh, JTS we tried the "ANY BUSH LITE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL CANDIDATE BUT BUSH" strategy for the last 2 elections, and all it got us was Bush.

Biden is as died in the wool conservative DLC as they come. He is as unelectable as Kerry, Gore, Lieberman, Clinton, and McCain are.

McCain mostly because he is toad ugly looks wise, which matters greatly in these "style over substance" days.

So I hope it comes down to Biden vs Feingold. Feingold is much better looking, isn't a career DLC inside the Beltway militarist hack like Biden is. What Biden has been saying about this being "Bush's war" is simply indefensible and lacking in integrity to his bitter, cynical, tribalistic, rotten, blows which way the wind blows, not an ounce of courage Democratic core.

We can only pray, for the country's sake, that it is a Feingold vs McCain match in '08.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:05 PM

McCain worries me...he is relatively honest and obviously respected by a lot of people on both sides....but he is practicing being a "loyal Republican" and backing Bush in ways I doubt he really believes in.

Why does he worry me? Because I suspect he might be the hardest Republican to beat, and I think the Republicans in general have lost credibility and are WAY too far right to be trusted. McCain, at the head of this generation of conservatives, might be unable to do much...no matter where his heart is.

C'mon, Republicans, nominate Trent Lott or Rick Santorum or Sam Brownback, so we can have a target worth firing at! ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:58 PM

NO!!!

Screw the Dems!!!

Vote Green!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:54 PM

Obviously it depends on who the likely Republican is. If McCain makes it through his own primaries, any Democrat will have a real hard time. McCain sure as hell knows what war is--and that it's not something you choose to do for your own sordid reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: heric
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:48 PM

A trim in the back can't rectify that hair transplant. Next candidate, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:46 PM

Biden is a smart, well-spoken politician...and if he got the job, I think he'd make reasonable decisions. He certainly knows the issues after all these years.

...But I don't think most of the public considers him charismatic enough....he just isn't viewed AS presidental material by many. If he is in the race, though, he will likely do a decent job of keeping some focus on relevant issues.....and just maybe, if the winds are right and others stumble, he could sneak in like Woodrow Wilson did when Taft & Roosevelt split each other's vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:17 PM

I saw it and he DID announce it. He has a chance if he retains the attitude he has now which is disgust with the way Bush has treated the office. AND.....It will take someone with a lot of the old boy ins that Biden has accumulated to take on the Republican party this time around. I think he's smart enough to come clean about anything personal quickly and astute in politics to serve up the machinations of the Bushites as a big shit sandwich for the GOP to choke on.

Biden has experienced the takedown in the past for things that were frankly just ancient history. I think he sees the light about all of that now after watching his own demise and the ravaging of Clinton for a blowjob.

Speaking of Maher, last week he did a great job nailing Dana Rohrbarger(sp) up against the wall. When Maher ask him if Clinton had sat like a lump as Bush did after being formed the nation was under attack, I thought he'd choke.....just dead silence!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:44 PM

Biden is as good as any of them. Which makes him way better than Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 04:56 PM

Here's what he has to say about the US invasion of Iraq:

http://biden.senate.gov/issues/iraq.cfm

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 04:52 PM

That was the guy who pinched one of Labour leader Neil Kinnock's speeches. Not really the best bloke to pinch a speech from.

I wasn't clear whether the offence was supposed to be plagarism, or using the words of the leader of what was then making itself out to be a party committed to socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:45 PM

He made a run for president back in 1992 (or was it later than that?). Anyway, somebody outed him for having been caught plagarizing in college and hung the name "xerox Joe" on him. It killed his fledgling candidacy.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:07 PM

Actually, I think AR282 nailed it. What we do not need is someone who has been in DC for 30+ years.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:51 PM

Gee, how elopuent. Just the sort of insightful comment I was looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:16 PM

Uhhh...no.

Subject: BS: Joe Biden for prez?
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:00 PM

Did anyone see the Senator on Bill Maher's show last night? He as much as announced his intention to run for President in 2008. With a little trim in back, he'd look quite presidential.

What do Mudcatters think of the man, his record, and his chances?

Cheers,
Michael