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BS: Guns in the USA
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Subject: BS: Guns in the USA From: Raggytash Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:09 AM On another thread Joe Offer, seemingly a very rational man, gave some figures on gun ownership in the USA. "While I don't like the popularity of personal handguns in the US, I don't think they are as universally present as one might think. One Website says:The report revealed that 11.1 million Americans hold concealed carry permits (in 2014) up from an estimated 4.6 million in 2007. Three states (South Dakota, Indiana, and Alabama) now have over 10 percent of their adult populations with permits, and 10 states have at least 8 percent of their adult populations with permits. I think Joe is being a little disingenuous and perhaps trying to indicate that gun ownership is not as widespread as we in the UK perceive it. He quotes "concealed carry permits" which is not quite the same as gun licences. According to one survey (Gallup 2011)some 47% of Americans report they have a gun at home or on their premises. Therefor something like 147,000,000 people have SOME access to a gun. Is it any wonder then that gun crime and the terrible massacres that occur are as frequent as they are. Please discuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Raggytash Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:11 AM Gun Ownership USA 2011 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:19 AM Happiness is a warm gun! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM I think Joe was responding to a specific point, namely the likelihood of the person behind you in a supermarket queue (at the "till" not "checkout") having a firearm on their person. But he overlooked the number of people with guns but no "carry permits" and indeed the number of covert guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:38 AM If a person keeps a gun in their home or at their business, I'm not all that concerned. It's their property, and it's my choice to go to their home or business. Their having a gun makes me nervous, but I think it would be impossible to enact legislation in the US that would prohibit people from keeping a gun at home or a business they own. "Open carry" of weapons is very rare in the U.S., but it is allowed in some places. It used to be that it was rare for Americans to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon wherever they go. It's only been in recent years that the courts have forced governments to give out concealed weapons permits more freely. The US population is 318.9 million. If 11 million have concealed weapons permits, that's not a huge percentage - but it's a number that grows every year, and that makes me nervous. Don't know about "covert guns." I suppose there are some, but I don't think most people bother to go around the licensing requirements. I don't like the fact that Americans have guns, and it surprises me that 43% of Americans are gun owners - but I don't think that's where the problem lies. When people arm themselves to go out in public, that is frightening to me, and I consider it to be a threat to my right to personal safety. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Raggytash Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:54 AM Hi Joe, I realise there are huge differences in the governance of the USA and the UK. In recent years we have suffered 3 mass killings one in Hungerford 1987 resulted in 16 deaths. The second in Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 resulted in 17 deaths 16 of whom were children. The third in Cumbria resulted in 13 deaths, including the gunman. The UK government reacted almost immediately (by government standards) and in 1997 introduced an almost absolute ban on private possession of handguns. Needless to say there was an outcry by the gun lobby but the majority of the population quietly acceptable the law. 162,000 weapons were handed in by 57,000 people about 1% of the population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: artbrooks Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:07 AM Except in some local jurisdictions, people rather than guns are licensed in the US, so the term 'gun license' is generally meaningless. Long guns (rifles and shotguns) and handguns not carried concealed are usually not subject to any government controls, although a license (issued by an entity such as the Dept. of Fish and Game) is usually required to hunt and there are safety rules some places. "Access to a gun' probably means the .22 bolt-action in the closet much more often than it means the 9mm pistol in the drawer next to the bed. It is important to remember that, under our governmental system, this is one of the things left to the states to regulate, so there is no national gun policy. Most people (like me) own no guns, but some own several and a small minority own a large number. A very small number, although I guess that I should say a small percentage of our very large population, carry a handgun regularly, either for personal protection or to prove a point. IMHO, the former are more dangerous than whatever they are protecting themselves from and the latter are jerks, but that's only my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:14 AM Raggytash, most civilized countries react to mass killings by insisting on stricter gun controls. The US reacts by buying more guns. Can't say I'm proud of that - but I am very proud of the fact that I will never own a gun or allow one in my house. It really scares me that there has been a huge increase in U.S. gun purchases since the election of Barack Obama. Some that they buy guns because they fear the government will soon prohibit guns. There are many people in my area who openly admit that they buy guns to protect themselves from the government. That really scares me. Our local newspaper reported recently that four cars at a local car dealership were damaged by gunshots. In the newspaper's online forum I said it seemed to be a sign that there were too many people with too many guns. Several people responded angrily that this county is a place where guns are treasured - and if I didn't like it, I should move. I got a strong message that if I speak against guns in this county, I'm taking a big risk. That scares me, too. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Will Fly Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM 'Access to a gun' probably means the .22 bolt-action in the closet much more often than it means the 9mm pistol in the drawer next to the bed. Sadly, that's very true. My nephew in Tucson battled with bipolarity all his life, only keeping himself able to survive mentality with drugs which he discovered for himself on the internet. He tried on two or three occasions to take his own life with overdosing on pills, but my sister (his mother) caught him each time and saved him. Unfortunately, she'd forgotten about the .22 bolt action in the closet - coming home after work one afternoon to find he'd shot himself with it. He was 32 years of age. He may, of course, have eventually done the deed some other way - but the rifle worked only too well the very first time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:46 AM Spent some time in Mountain View, Arkansas, which is a wonderful place for music, albeit in a dry county! I did find it very weird that the road signs round about were full of bullet holes. Apparently what passes for fun amongst the youth of Arkansas is to drive round in pickups, drinking illegal beer and shooting at road signs. And in my youth we thought it was dangerous playing knifey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:10 AM There are many people in my area who openly admit that they buy guns to protect themselves from the government. That really scares me. Which scares you more, Joe? The guns, or the colossal stupidity? Beware of stupid people with guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:13 AM "Beware of stupid people with guns." And of Greeks bearing gifts! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:20 AM Beware the person with nothing to lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:33 AM What about Greeks bearing guns? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Bill D Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:40 AM Because of the very different history of the USA and the UK.... plus the geography and demography... we have always had guns as part of daily life for many people. At one time... or more precisely, for many years, it even made sense to have guns available to conquer the wilderness and the "fierce natives" (tongue in cheek)... and to defend the very idea of having a USA at all when King George was was trying to say we should remain a colony. Then came our sad Civil War, to determine whether "any country so conceived and so dedicated should long endure". By the time the Civil War ended, keeping guns... "just in case" was a common theme, and maybe even still made some sense.... but the technology kept increasing as the urbanization also increased, and the 'country folk' who moved to the cities to find work carried with them, for various reasons, the idea of owning guns. .... So.. with so many having the idea that they 'ought' to have guns, the firearms industry found all sorts of reasons to support the idea..(big surprise?)...they used that one vague phrase in the 2nd Amendment to apply 18th century reasoning to 20th century conditions and now we have an entire organization, the NRA, existing primarily to protect a 'right' that never should have existed beyond about 1895. What we have is a situation where FAR too many own guns... with a significant number of them willing to use their guns to avoid those guns being "taken away".... and others seeing guns as a means of settling arguments or committing crimes. With many millions of guns available, almost anyone can get them... legally, if they have not committed a felony--yet-- and illegally if the have a few dollars. Thus, the very fact of 'bad guys having guns' leads to the stupid idea that "good guys" NEED them for protection, even as statistics show how seldom that works out. So... you folk in the UK see the horrendous news stories and quite rightly wonder why we 'permit' such conditions... for the answer, re-read the above. Many of us despise the situation, but the solution is NOT... I repeat... NOT just a **simple** matter of passing laws and/or amending the Constitution. That is what it would take, but changing the mindsets necessary is as hard as rooting out prejudice & bigotry.... and IF such laws & amendments were passed, there would still be millions of firearms and stockpiles of weapons hidden away. The process is daunting. That doesn't mean I...or Joe Offer... or millions of others... have given up. We just see what we are up against. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:48 AM The Canuck government (not for long) just passed law that strips the RCMP of the authority to reclassify restricted (special permit; transport only along a specified route to and from a certified range; others) firearms as prohibited - turn em in NOW! This is now under cabinet authority. Really? I dare say Cabinet, indeed most of our politicians, don't own or know much about guns... don't need em... the bastards steal legally. It's a sad day when Canada, who had, with a few exceptions, good and progressive gun control laws, takes a step backward. The figure of 6M guns was bandied about some years ago but I always 'felt' it was far more. I should add that the cost of our Gun Registry, as of 2004, was over $2B. A few years ago, our government (see above) abolished the registry and ordered all records destroyed. This was done except in Quebec. There is a huge flap going on now about the destruction but I'll spare you the details except to say that somebody broke the law and the government wants to retroactively legislate that they cannot be held accountable... I await the outcome with bated breath. If memory serves me correctly, I think there have been gun threads on Mudcat before. I recall that I posted something like, "See you in another thousand posts" in several of them. >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,Olddude Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:58 AM The laws here all vary from state to state, it would be good if we had one consistent federal Law. I ddon't ssuspect that will happen anytime soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM ". . . the government wants to retroactively legislate that they cannot be held accountable... I await the outcome with bated breath." Suzanne Legault pulled them up by their short and curlies, and the hardrive was turned over by Blaney and the RCMP this morning thus obeying an order from the Federal Court. FYI PS This particular piece of legerdemain is hidden away in Bill C-59 which is a budget bill. Yeah, right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 23 Jun 15 - 04:53 PM I hail from a very large family: 9 bio offspring plus 2 adopted ones. Four of us were/are male. I know that two of my brothers have rifles, a .22, a 30.30 and a 30.06, not for 'protection' but from nostalgia. My father had a .22 when I was growing up which we used for target practice. None of us has handguns. I remember that at one time when my oldest brother was 20 or so he had one that he used to shoot rats in our chicken house. (To my knowledge he never hit one.) All of my brothers have hunted game at one time or another. None of them has done so in the last 30 years. I don't know what that does to American statistics but I'm pretty sure that our family is not alone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:02 PM What if Bernie Sanders were elected president? Would that bring out all the gun nuts in an armed insurrection to overthrow the government? And would the government be able to defend itself against them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:13 PM Bernie is the senator from Vermont, Vermont has virtually no gun laws and it also has the lowest rate of gun murders in the states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:39 PM I don't think the issue is the guns, although they don't help. I think the issue is over-entitlement, with the notion that harming another person is an appropriate way to remove them from the way of your entitlement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jun 15 - 06:19 PM It seems a bit wacky to me that this can be discussed without mentioning the NRA, which is powerful, influential, wealthy and all too ready to undermine democracy in order to maintain the maximum amount of freedom to own guns, unfettered. Whether it's a kind of sickness in the US that such powerful and undemocratic lobby groups such as the NRA and AIPAC can hold such sway, or whether it's just that your citizens are kept deliberately uneducated or miseducated (hi, Fox) about politics, it's bloody scary, and the US reaps the consequences at ever more frequent intervals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Nick Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM You couldn't make it up - NRA response Truly bonkers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:02 PM When I was a kid, the NRA (National Rifle Association) was a moderate group that taught hunter safety and responsible gun ownership. It even supported many gun control laws. Over the last 20 years, the NRA became radicalized, and now resists any restrictions on gun ownership whatsoever. Its magazines are full of enticing photos of assault rifles - that aren't meant for hunting game. The most blatantly offensive U.S. gun manufacturer is Bushmaster. I suspect the company has made big money being known as the gun used in the Sandy Hook murders in Connecticut. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:26 PM #... "PS This particular piece of legerdemain is hidden away in Bill C-59 which is a budget bill. Yeah, right." Many may not know what that means. It means that, if a 'government' has a majority, when the leader of the opposition calls for an end to debate on a budget bill, the bill is passed, including all the 'omnibus' bullshit in it which has only recently been done under the present government... "just like in The States". It is, some say, a treacherous and treasonous subversion of our parliamentary system. Crime Minister Harper was the first to use this abhorrent perversion of Parliament and, hopefully, he will be the last. ORANGE I SAY! ORANGE! What would Tommy do? The Greatest Canadian for good reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Bill D Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:27 PM The NRA is 75% driven by money and 75% by macho egos... (yes, I can do math). Firms like Bushmaster need steady sales. Food stores and diaper manufacturers have a natural recurring business model... gun manufacturers have to invent one. The NRA has become the shill for the product. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:42 PM hello steve shaw and others. a while ago you and others recommended the gaughan forum to me as an alternative to all the hideousness on mudcat. i've done a bit on there as have others. why not more? it's a much more civilised and socialist place.....see you there, pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Rapparee Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:43 PM When the numbers of people who own firearms in the US is bandied about it should be recognized that if I (for example) own 10 guns, there are others who own none. This makes the total number of owned firearms (an estimate, of course) per 100,000 population (and similar comparisons) a bit questionable. For instance, if a figure of 88.1 guns owned per 100 people is used it does not take into account that some will own more than one gun and other will own none at all. The University of Sidney (Australia) runs an interesting website regarding guns in 178 countries. It seems straight forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 15 - 10:28 PM The 43% number, is people who live in a house where there is at least one firearm. I wonder how many households in the US have TEN firearms. Maybe I would't like to know. I live in a rural area, an area where there are animals known to have rabies (especially raccoons). If there were an animal in my yard that was acting strangely, I admit that I'd like to be able to shoot it - and if I saw such a thing, I'd probably go out and buy a gun. So far, I haven't. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Bill D Date: 23 Jun 15 - 10:35 PM The University of Sidney site is the most comprehensive one I have ever seen. If they are even close to accurate, the numbers are sobering... if they don't drive you to drink. Just the raw numbers relating to the US are jaw dropping. I will need to do some comparisons to get a true idea of relative stats compared to other countries, but it ain't pretty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:50 AM The number of small arms in civilian hands, worldwide, is staggering. Even if the UN treaty regarding small arms were to be approved by all members (it won't, and not just because of the US) there would continue to be a fantastic number of small arms in civilian hands. A lady on the bus during my recent visit to Ireland told me that she was Canadian, "...and Canada has the highest per-capita number of guns in the world." Then she showed my a picture of herself at a shooting range using a military type of rifle with an underslung grenade launcher attached. That is most assuredly not a hunting or target weapon! (It won't stop me from visiting Canada, however.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:07 AM Tally of Attacks in U.S. Challenges Perceptions of Top Terror Threat By SCOTT SHANE JUNE 24, 2015 WASHINGTON — In the 14 years since Al Qaeda carried out attacks on New York and the Pentagon, extremists have regularly executed smaller lethal assaults in the United States, explaining their motives in online manifestoes or social media rants. But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center. The slaying of nine African-Americans in a Charleston, S.C., church last week, with an avowed white supremacist charged with their murders, was a particularly savage case. But it is only the latest in a string of lethal attacks by people espousing racial hatred, hostility to government and theories such as those of the "sovereign citizen" movement, which denies the legitimacy of most statutory law. The assaults have taken the lives of police officers, members of racial or religious minorities and random civilians. Non-Muslim extremists have carried out 19 such attacks since Sept. 11, according to the latest count, compiled by David Sterman, a New America program associate, and overseen by Peter Bergen, a terrorism expert. By comparison, seven lethal attacks by Islamic militants have taken place in the same period. If such numbers are new to the public, they are familiar to police officers. A survey to be published this week asked 382 police and sheriff's departments nationwide to rank the three biggest threats from violent extremism in their jurisdiction. About 74 percent listed antigovernment violence, while 39 percent listed "Al Qaeda-inspired" violence, according to the researchers, Charles Kurzman of the University of North Carolina and David Schanzer of Duke University. Article Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Lighter Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:47 AM After the Newtown massacre, Congress proved itself unwilling to pass more restrictive gun legislation. Until it does that much (and it may), proposals to eliminate guns, repeal Amendments, or shut down the manufacture of arms for private individuals seems to me to be quite beside the point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jun 15 - 10:57 AM Canada ? That's a joke, right Rap ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Bill D Date: 24 Jun 15 - 11:12 AM According to the website posted above, Canada does not publish any figures to accurately make any comparison about per capita gun ownership. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jun 15 - 12:47 PM Nope, no joke. That's what she said, and I was in no position to disagree regardless of my personal feelings. I do suspect that there were a number of people in Canada who did not follow the lawful way, just as there would be those in the US who would not. There are so many firearms around that I don't think anyone has any handle on the actual number. The Luger in great-grandpa's duffel bag from WW2, that Mauser brought home from WWI, the SKS unk brounght back from Malaya or 'Nam, that .455 Webley the gamekeeper had on the Estate, the H&H double rifle, the '73 Colt SAA in the collection, the AK-47s buried when the government forces over ran the rebels back in '72, the PPSh-42 brought back from Korea...who knows? That's just small arms. There are those who deal in bigger weapons as well and yes, you can get them or even make them yourself. The Filipino guerrillas, during the Japanese occupation made their own guns, as have many criminal gangs and frankly, it's not that hard to make a usable mortar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Lighter Date: 24 Jun 15 - 04:18 PM http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/06/23/manchin-toomey-both-interested-in-reviving-gun-control-push/ Sounds good until you realize all they're promising is trying to come up with something that might work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,# Date: 24 Jun 15 - 05:11 PM Gun ownership figures are easily available in Canada. Read the following link. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-guns-in-canada-this-year-but-fewer-owners-rcmp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: TheSnail Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM You might enjoy this - Jim Jefferies but then again, you might not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:48 PM Query: when was the last time in Canada that some jackass with a gun blew away a congregation in a Black church? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM "Tally of Attacks in U.S. Challenges Perceptions of Top Terror Threat" Intensive surveillance is proving effective and most Islamist inspired terror plots are being nipped in the bud......thank goodness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 15 - 07:49 PM "Query: when was the last time in Canada that some jackass with a gun blew away a congregation in a Black church?" No black church congregationists but a couple of armed forces personnel murdered by Islamist inspired terrorists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,# Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:45 PM They do happen here in Canada, but with nowhere near the frequency they do in the US. We tend to see people who do that as mental health cases (although sometimes it's business as with sprees between gangs such as Quebec's Rock Machine and the Hell's Angels or various groups who try to control things on the darker side of life) and most Canadans just don't buy into the 'it's terrorism' nomenclature. Our government is doing its best to change that, but mostly we aren't latching onto it as a term or an explanation. Happened: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-mass-murder-victims-identified-all-died-of-gunshot-wounds-1.2888437 Foiled: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/murderous-misfits-or-something-else-halifax-mass-killing-plot-relights-thorny-task-of-defining-terrorism Happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,# Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:49 PM 'Berserkers' are becoming a problem, but their motivations seem to be somewhere on an ideological line. The Parliament Hill attack is an example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jun 15 - 10:15 PM I honestly don't know about Canadian gun ownership. I do know that the last time I drove up there Canadian Customs asked me if I had a weapon in the car and I said, "No, do I need one?" They laughed and I entered Canada with a small sheath knife (about a 3 inch blade) that I'd forgotten I had along. The last time I was in Canada I had a pocketknife* with me. Please don't report me to the RCMP. *Victorinox Swiss Army, without a corkscrew but with tweezers and a toothpick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 24 Jun 15 - 11:21 PM When I came into Canada - long before 9/11 - and was asked that question I told them that I had a hunting knife in the cubby, that my brothers had insisted that I take it. I asked him if he wanted to see it and he said, yes. It was an old rusty knife still in its sheathe and the guy laughed and told me to keep it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: GUEST,Cookie wherefore art thou? Date: 25 Jun 15 - 04:22 AM I think I mentioned once on another thread but I thought it funny so will repeat it. Once, when in Vancouver (skiing at Whistler) I saw an excellent T shirt. Canadian {noun}. Unarmed American with healthcare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jun 15 - 09:55 PM If you've lost yours, I have all sorts of yummy cookies. joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jun 15 - 11:51 PM E.J. Dionne has a good article in U.S. newspapers this week. He says,m "We need to insist on protecting the rights of Americans who do not want to be anywhere near guns." He concludes:
I should be able to feel safe walking the mountain trails near my home, but twice hunters and target shooters have shot many rounds in my direction. We rarely have bears in the area and they've never been a nuisance - why did the guy next door have to kill two of them, and how did he shoot them without his bullets going onto my property? And those two frightened people who greeted me with rifles after I called and made an appointment to interview them on a government investigation - did those guns ever really do them any good? Yeah, I think I have a right to be free of the fear of being shot by nice, law-abiding people with guns. -Joe Offer- |
