Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:48 AM

Jim,

Do you seriously think that the people in the present-day folk scene would be interested in purchasing Ewan and Peggy's seminars in order to obtain a much needed transfusion of life and ability?
What do you mean by that?

The music existed long before Ewan and Peggy told us all how to do it. Of all the people that you have recorded I wonder how many learnt how to sing and play from seminars.

Ewan certainly made huge contributions to the folk scene but he was not the be-all and end-all. If he had been then I think that folk song and folk music would be even more of a minority interest than it already is.

In my humble opinion Topic Records and Tony Engle should be congratulated on putting out the material that they do and keeping it in catalogue. They I believe have made and continue to make a far larger contribution to the scene. Ewan may be your persoanl hero but like it or not there are many others worthy of praise.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:51 AM

Undoubtedly one of best voices ever on the Scene - but I have observed not to the taste of a younger generation, who prefer the popstyle tremolo of La Rusby which does zilch for me. Not only chacun à son gout, but things they do alter as the time do go along...

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 09:14 AM

The thread's yomped a million miles from the OP's original innocent query about whether the Singers ever met in Kilburn in the 1950s, to which the answer is that we don't think it did until the 1980s.

"Hootenanny" has an unseemly interest in trying to expose my under-age pub-frequenting but suffice it to say that the only bar I've ever been ejected from by reason of youth is the Bedford when we were sent as a junior clogging team to Sidmouth in, I think, 1959. I know it wasn't 1960 as we were in Rome not watching the Olympics. We simply crossed the road and kicked up a racket on the promenade, possibly inventing the practice for all I know. I'd already been getting into the Bridge after school with the rest of the La Sagesse bratpack since the age of about 13 so it was puzzling.

Topic is a fine thing to have and here's to the next 70 years and let's not forget about Gerry Sharp, Mr Engle's eminent predecessor, nor additionally forget that Topic too have a huge hiden archive that's not commercially available. Said Mr Engle got so pissed off at my agitation for a remastering of his own Oak recordings that he rold me to have a go at Rod Stradling instead. Result. Musical Traditions re-released it. Same with Robin Dransfield. His only solo Topic recording together with live unreleased material came out on a similar double CD quite recently. Hurrah for those who slave away with Pro-Tools on their kitchen tables. They're today's equivalent of Ewan, Peggy & Charles Parker with tape reels and razor blades preserving the People's Voices.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

Yes Borchester, the discussion has "diverted" somewhat from my original question but, it has led to a most interesting discourse, certainly for me. Of course I hope that all posters do end up as the friends and acquaintances that they were starting out. It's been fascinating.
The question arose from the assertion in a recent publication concerning Heaney , Ennis and the "Singer's Club" and that the club had been venued in Kilburn in the 50s.
I think now , in the light of this forum's discussion, that this is incorrect. Is there any possibility that the "Singer's Club" was ever held in a Camden Town pub. That isn't very far from Cecil Sharpe House is it ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

Dear Ms Borchseter Echo,
I can assure you that I have interest at all regarding your drinking habits. My reason for asking at what period you frequented the Ballads and Blues Club is that I got the impression from your various contributions that you had been a member or at least attended as a visitor. The fact that you haven't answered but told us about your 1960 holiday instead would indicate that you never did. Therefore much of what you post would appear to be hearsay or something you once read. You refer to Peggy's writings and as Jim says and I agree she does get some dates wrong something that is quite easy to do and is no big crime. I have no axe to grind with Peggy or Ewan. I knew Peggy more than Ewan through taking lessons (NOT ON HOW TO SING) from her and the last time we met we had quite an enjoyable time recalling those days upstairs in the Greek restaurant in Coram Street.
I usually get involved in these postings because people constantly seem to confuse the Ballads & Blues Club and the later Singers Club and I try in my humble way to correct things that I beleieve to be incorrect.
I believe that Rod Stradling and Tony Engle both do a great service for the folk music world but no matter how well you do a job there is always someone who knows better just how it should be done.

To return to the oriiginal query, as far as I am aware the Ballads & Blues Club never was in Kilburn, certainly not while I was involved. I believe the farthest north west in London that we got was at The King & Queen at Paddington Green and at the risk of starting another argument it was there where I first saw Alex Campbell perform and Ewan took offence because Alex recited a Glasgow kids poem about farting. Most peopl found it mildly amusing.

On that low note I will close.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 03:45 PM

I think you will find that I mentioned having dropped by the Princess Louise, Cousins and the Troubadour and wherever the Singers happened to be during my teenage years while on the run from school and then university. Of course I was never a Ballads & Blues member, that would have been illegal and would have got some of those old codgers locked up (which might have been A Good Thing).

Ewan used to get mildly pissed off when I pretended to be a visiting Finnish au pair or whatever and eventually suggested I came along to the Critics, which I did a few times, believing that it could do no harm, which it didn't. I recall Anne Briggs being asked at the same time but she refused. I certainly needed the advice more than she did. Ewan was unfailingly pleasant and encouraging and for many years afterwards whenever our paths crossed he always inquired what I was doing musically.

The King & Queen (which is in Foley Street, Fitzrovia) had an anniversary party a couple of years ago hosted by Martin Carthy and Pete Stanley. Anniversary of what I can't remember . . . 50 years? Surely not. I got invited and Martin Nail (who was on the door) said he'd been told not to charge me. So there. Come to think of it, it was there that Tony Engle told me to go and pester Rod about Oak recordings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

Hoot
"Do you seriously think that the people in the present-day folk scene would be interested in purchasing Ewan and Peggy's seminars"
No, of course I don't; why should you think they should be sold? But some of the work we did may be of some use to singers, so why not make them available, on the internet say?
The Critics Group spent around ten years working on singing; whenever a problem is raised on this forum: voice production, pitch, range... whatever, quite often my reaction is - we did that in the C.G.
It may well be that other groups were doing similar work, but if ours is useful for singers - what's your problem?
"The music existed long before Ewan and Peggy told us all how to do it."
Perhaps you might tell us where to find "Ewan and Peggy telling us how to do it".
I gave the presentation on The Critics Group at the symposium held for his 70th birthday, and my main criticism of the group and Ewan was that, in spite of all the shit thrown at him, or the misrepresentation of the group's work, or John Brune's efforts to sabotage the radio ballad 'The Travelling People', (don't suppose you were at The John Snow meeting, were you?) and all the rest of the crap surrounding Ewan, his ideas and his work, he or they never publicly commented about what was happening in the folk scene, never criticised or analysed other clubs or performers, but just got on with what they were doing.
The ironic thing about all this is, of course is that people who snide about Ewan telling people how to sing, what to sing, (even chucking gypsies off his non-existant property), are behaving exactly as they accuse him of behaving.
"Ewan may be your personal hero....
He isn't/wasn't.
I knew him, enjoyed his company, liked his singing, respected his work and was grateful for the time he devoted to me and other less experienced singers while the rest of the revival 'stars' were getting on with their careers, but in spite of your snide accusation of hero-worship, I recognised him as a flawed human being with loads of faults, some of them serious.
My problem is that I would like to see an open debate on the work and ideas that came about through the Critics Group, but each time the opportunity arises we have to scramble a shit-mountain (finger-in-ear, Jimmy Miller, war record...... yatta-yatta-yattata, and it just never happens.
If I had to choose between MacColl, warts-and-all, and all this bollocks - sorry, no contest.
Jim Carroll
PS I was hoping for a response to my earlier question from Greg Stephens

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:19 PM

Jim,
I obviously misunderstand you. I got the impression that you along with several other singers joined the critics group and were helped greatly by what Ewan and Peggy taught you, is that not what you are saying in your postings. Perhaps "told us how to do it" was an unfortunate choice of words. I also get the impression from your various postings that you do hero-worship Ewan that isn't snide in my book or critical, many of us have heroes.


Borchester Echo,

So the answer to my question is NO. Yes I do know the King & Queen in Foley Street and remember it from the days when Curly Simon ran it but there is/was more than one pub with that name in London one of which happened to be in Paddington Green I don't know if it still exists. You seem also to be mis-informed if you thought that the B&BA was run by old codgers the oldest at the time of which I speak was in his thirties, others in their twenties. At least three venues where the B&BA held their get togethers did not serve alcohol so your immaturity would not have mattered at that time.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 06:07 PM

Actually I found what went on in the B&B a bit of a popularist mish-mash run by ancient 30+ Good Enough For F*lk beardies. Not like the "proper" sessions I'd wormed my way into after school and orchestra practice in Newcastle. As far as I can remember, I only went to the Princess Louise which certainly sold beer and continued to do so in all the years I subsequently attended NUJ meetings there.

Ha! So "Hootenanny" wasn't invited to the K&Q party then? Or perhaps couldn't find the pub. Talking of "immaturity", isn't it time you dropped your ridiculous feud of 50 years duration with a man who is 20 years dead and whose musical contribution and legacy is massive? Jim Carroll is right, Ewan didn't tell you or anyone else what they should be doing. He went off and set an example, and did what he did. Well.

Oh. What was the question?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 07:12 PM

Ms B E
I have never had a feud with Ewan. As I have said before I very much enjoyed much but not all of what he did. I have no idea where you get your ridiculous ideas from. Some people make mistakes when posting items on this thread confusing The Ballads & Blues Club with The Singers Club mainly because Peggy and Ewan appeared at both. In my humble way I try to correct the points that I know about.
I really do think you should lighten up a bit Life is far too short to keep getting your knickers in a twist every time someone tries to correct you. Not everyone spends their life trying to score points.

Keep Smilng

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: Fidjit
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 02:23 AM

Jim Carroll

Crap voice. . . . .

I'm sure it's all relative.

Pretty sure that someday, somewhere, somewhen, someone will say that I have a crap voice. test for yourself

I presume that this "M.O.O. Chacun á son goút " is some form of garlic swearing. Pun intended.

Stay well

Chas

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 02:59 AM

All I did was reproduce a statement made by Peggy Seeger about why policy among members and residents was formulated as it was, and how. The only thing you and Jim Carroll seem to agree on is that she got her dates slightly wrong but now you seem to be accusing me as well as PS of not knowing what building we were in on Saturday nights. I think it hardly likely that Peggy would confuse one club with another, but know that I certainly did not and am not in need of your "correction". Bert Lloyd used to send me reams of single-spaced, manual-typed rewrites of my reviews which I greatly appreciated. Scatter-gun snarlings from you (whoever you are) are not.

Ewan helped and encouraged me greatly and I only wish I'd had the foresight to hang on in longer. You, on the other hand, resented his wisdom and example and wanted to be left to continue "your" establishment in a downmarket, GEFFish fashion. You got your wish when E&P left to found the Singers. Which is what the OP was inquiring about.

The B&B (from what I observed) was dominated by a bunch of tedious bearded leftover misfits from the jazz and skiffle era, whereas the Singers was a vibrant hotbed of innovation and interpretation (that is until Sandra Kerr and others took off to Bethnal Green to pursue the goal of agitprop song and theatre even more forcefully at the Knave of Clubs).

You are presumably still sitting round your virtual campfire in your knotted Y-fronts railing at any hint of musical progression. It's not funny and it's not clever to slag off Ewan at the drop of a pork-pie hat, still less so to distort his teaching and philosophy. You didn't like his methods? Fine, no one ever forced you to take part. Carry on with Kumbaya but out of vision, please.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:01 AM

I'm sorry Borchester but you really do seem to enjoy spouting off vehemently about observations that you made at a club which you didn't attend and now you are telling me that I "resented Ewan's wisdom". As far as I am aware our paths have never crossed and you did not know me then and you do not know me now but still you pass judgement.

As I have already suggested you should calm down a little and learn to smile and perhaps get out a little more.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 09:05 AM

The Hootenanny person is quite right is noting that I haven't a clue who he is. We have all, however, observed him badmouthing Ewan MacColl on the most convoluted of pretexts and, indeed, we all know plenty like him who do likewise without ever even having seen Ewan perform nor even having met him. They hear something here and read something there and leap to their wildly off-beam conclusions. H claims, however, to have known Ewan. Not all that well, it would seem and I'm not about to start smiling at duplicitous people who malign the departed who they allege were "friends" in this life.

However, this self-deluding individual now tries to pretend that he had a forerunner CCTV device on the door of the Princess Louise which proves categorically that I never entered its portals. Must have been out of order on quite a few Saturdays then. None of which has anything to do with the topic which is, after all, the Singers, not the B&B.

Maybe H should climb into a time machine and ask the serried ranks at the K&Q party he wasn't invited to where I was throughout the late 50s, the 60s, the 70s . . . 'Twould be quite hard to "get out" more than I do / have done. Where do I live?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Johnny Fewings
Date: 11 Feb 24 - 06:58 AM

Anyone remember where the room at the Pinder Of Wakefield was in the pub. Currently music is at the back. (Water Rats). But was that the same room? Pictures of the old room show windows. So maybe upstairs??

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 04:15 AM

why not contacr jim carroll, he does not come to mudcat anymore, he is on facebook or riddlesjimatgmail.com

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 12:13 PM

“Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven.”

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 01:12 PM

I decided to avoid the Singers Club, I had an encounter with Ewan, and i thought it unlikely to be good craic, Jim described me once, on this forum as a talentless moron.
If i had gone to the singers club, WHO KNOWS

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm909
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 12:01 PM

The Singers Club's first meeting was at the ACTT premises in Soho Square on 25 June 1961, which was a Sunday (initially it met there on alternate Sundays). Malcolm Nixon continued the B&B there (every Saturday) for about a year thereafter but did not restart following the summer break in 1962. Since at least late-1959, the B&B had run under the title HOOTENANNIES (sometimes varying that title a bit, I believe).

The Singers Club moved to the Pindar of Wakefield around September 1962, presumably following its summer break, and ran on two nights a week. Saturday evenings were mainly for individual singers, Sundays for groups.

The above information comes from contemporary issues of SING and from their occasional club listings inserts (and from the Folk Forum column of MELODY MAKER in late 1962).

I believe the next Singers Club venue was the Royal Hotel on Southampton Row. I still have my ticket for 15 February 1964, which I think was the opening night there. I didn't find it that friendly a place but did return a month later. The person who impressed me most was Tom Paley, though I can't say which of the two nights that was.

When the Singers Club first started, Ewan MacColl wrote an article for SING entitled "Why I am opening a new club". It consisted of five numbered paragraphs. Here is the first of those:

“It is necessary to rescue a large number of young people, all of whom have the right instincts, from those influences that have appeared on the folk scene during the past two or three years – influences that are doing their best to debase the meaning of folk song. The only notes that some people care about are bank notes”.

He continues in a similar vein.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 12:33 PM

Turning now to the King & Queen, there were three music evenings there in late-1962.

"The King & Queen Folk Club" ran on Mondays. Performers mentioned include Steve Benbow, Alex Campbell and Stan Kelly. Pete Fisher was the organiser. In late 1961, Jenny Barton (she of Saturday Night At The Troubadour) reported that, the night she was present, "Alex Campbell was in charge" and there were "five singers, ten audience and a black cat".

Then on Wednesdays, there was "Russell Quay's CITY RAMBLERS Spasm Band", with Hylda Sims and Hennessey among those mentioned.

Finally, every Friday, there was "THE THAMES-SIDE 4 Folk Club". Their opening night had been on 9 January 1962. The four members at that time were Martin Carthy, Marian Gray, Pete Maynard and Redd Sullivan. Marian Gray was handling their bookings and they also had a residency at the Witches Cauldron in Belsize Park at the time.

______________________________________________________________________


In my previous post, I should have mentioned that the Ballads & Blues had moved to The Sevendown in Carlisle Street before the end of 1961.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 03:59 PM

Guest twm is plain wrong.

The Ballads and Blues Club continued after the Summer break of 1961 in September at the Seven Down in the premises previously operating as The Partisan coffee bar at number 7 Carlisle Street. The next venue we moved to and certainly the best was The Black Horse pub in Rathbone Place. Sadly Danny the Irish landlord died at quite a young age and we moved to one or two other pubs in the West End.

Jill Cook of Collett's Record shop also ran a Monday night club at The Black Horse after we had been there for a while using singers such as Bert Jansch.

The Ballads and Blues club continued until May 1965. The venue at that time was The King of Corsica in Brewer Street.

The ads in Melody Maker every week were always headed Hootenanny at the Ballads & Blues.

Over a number of years there have been quite a few postings here with mis-information re The Singer's Club run by Ewan and Peggy, and The Ballads and Blues Club, usually as in the case above spouted by someone was not there. Ewan and Peggy left their Ballads and Blues residency in order to have a club where they could dictate the policy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 08:31 PM

I was not wrong, Hootenanny. You misread what I wrote.

In my first post, I said the Ballads and Blues stopped after the summer break in 1962, not in 1961. Malcolm Nixon did not restart it after the 1962 summer break.

And, in my second post, I said I had omitted to mention that the club had moved to the Sevendown by the end of 1961.

SING magazine's "Directory of Folk Song Clubs" (September 1961) still gave the venue as the ACTT premises in Soho Square, so it must have moved to the Sevendown later that year.

And, when you refer to the "Hootenanny Ballads and Blues" heading for the club's small ads in MELODY MAKER, this was in 1964-1965 period, not the period I was discussing. So that heading was not "always".

And you are mistaken as to the venue of the Ballads and Blues in that 1964-1965 "season". It was the Black Horse in Rathbone Place, not the venue you mentioned, which may, perhaps, have been later.

Finally, my reference to "Hootenannies" was to a much earlier period still. In late 1959. SING named the club as "Hootenannies", with no mention of Ballads and Blues at all. But the night, the venue and the residents at "Hootenannies" were the same as for the Ballads and Blues. It was just being run and a different name.

All of the above comes from contemporary publications, not memory, so unlikely to be wrong, let alone "plain wrong".

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 04:20 AM

Sorry about the typo -"and" should read "under" in the penultimate sentence of the previous post.

To be even clearer, the use of "Hootenannies" in place of Ballads and Blues (at least as listed in SING) occurred in 1959 but the use of "Hootenannies" in connection with the Ballads and Blues earlier than that.

Eric Winter wrote an article about the Ballads and Blues in the 3 May 1958 issue of THE GIARDIAN (then THE MANCHESTER GUARDIAN, of course). In it, he said that "The programmes are called 'Hootenannies'" - and goes on to explain what that means.

That particular paragraph ends with the following sentence:-

"'One rule', says Ewan MacColl, who acts as informal master of ceremonies: 'English people sing English songs, Americans sing American songs, and Scots sing Scottish songs'".

Perhaps this, from the last paragraph of Eric Winter's article, may be of interest, too:

"Folk-song is no longer the exclusive province of cycling parsons and genteel schoolmistresses. It has become successful entertainment and a profitable commercial venture in the West End of London".

The Ballads and Blues, a "profitable commercial venture"? Bring back the cycling parsons and the genteeel schoolmistresses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 06:29 AM

Apologies if I mis-read your comments. Easily done.

Just to clarify where my knowledge comes from.

I attended the Ballads and Blues at The Princess Louise each week from around 1956/57, can't remember the exact date.I took guitar lessons from Peggy Seeger until she had to skip off briefly to France in 1959.

Malcolm Nixon asked me to take on the booking and running of the Ballads and Blues from September 1961 at the Seven Down (Eric Winter's SING magazine was probably printed before he knew of the new venue) which I did until we closed down in May 1965 at The King of Corsica in Berwick Street as stated above. NOT The Black Horse. After we left the Black Horse and before the King of Corsica we were at The Porcupine just off Charing Cross Road.

Other venues post Princess Louise included The Coram Hotel in Fitzrovia and The Horse Shoes next to The Dominion Theatre in Tottenham Court Road.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 07:19 AM

joe heaney did indeed sing at the singers club before he left for america.he had four children in clydebank two of which are alive today and are close friends of myself.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 10:51 AM

Yes, you are right about SING's September 1961 "directory of folk songs clubs". It was trailed in the August 1961 issue, which said that the September issue of the magazine would be "on sale AUGUST 21". Eric Winter must have assumed it would be at the Soho Square venue.

Curiously, it was next mentioned in the November 1961 issue, at the top of a list of "NEW CLUBS". This listing says that it was open on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays (at both 7.30 and 11.00 pm on the Saturday) but, on Sundays, it opened at 6.00 pm as a members club.

SING did folk club listing inserts with its September 1961 and its May 1962 issues. I believe it did a third but I don't have that.

Come the April 1964 issue, there was a listing of folk clubs in Britain included in its printed pages. However, this list had been compiled by the EFDSS and did not include the Ballads & Blues.

Thereafter, SING ceded this compilation task to the EFDSS, so perhaps there's the place to go check.

The EFDSS did publish a "FOLK DIRECTORY" for 1965, probably at the end of 1964 or early in 1965. This included a list of folk clubs, as submitted by club organisers. Again, there is no mention of the Ballads & Blues, even though the club was placing small ads in MELODY MAKER, which leads me to this.

In respect of the Black Horse, this is the venue given for "Hootenanny, Ballads & Blues" in MELODY MAKER's "FOLK FORUM" column in both the 12 September 1964 issue (Malcolm Price and Sandy & Jeanie were the listed performers) and 13 February 1965 issue (Sandy & Jeanie - again - plus Rena Swankie and Joanne Hindley Smith). I cannot say what the venue was after that date.

ON A SEPARATE MATTER, what can anyone tell me about Dean Gitter? His name came up in something from early 1973 and it meant nothing to me. He was evidently an American in London but what else should I know? Can anyone provide more information about him?.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 04:33 PM

If you are researching London folk clubs of that era you would be better researching the Melody Maker small ads. than Sing. Melody Maker's Folk Forum was written by Eric Winter too. But personally never found that to be of much importance either.

The EFDSS was more interested in dance than song and I doubt that they had space or interest in the large number of clubs in the capital. I doubt that many of the B and B audience would have subscribed to their magazine. Some of Ewan & Peggy's club probably(?) did.

Dean Gitter? He was at the club when I first started attending. Another American among the several that came over in the early days of the Folk Scare: Peggy Seeger, Guy Carawan, Ralph Rinzler, Alan Lomax, Fred Gerlach, Sandy Paton and his wife, Jack Elliott, Derrol Adams and from Canada Winston and Mary Jane Young plus of course Pete Seeger when the Ballads and Blues put on a concert at At Pancras Town Hall (which was recorded and issued on vinyl) when he was first allowed to travel.
I have two or three photographs from the Princess Louise days one of which is of Ewan & Penny at the Mic (I am sure this is the night that the BBC recorded proceedings) Seated behind Ewan is Dean Gitter but his face is partly hidden.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 06:50 PM

I am not researching London folk clubs in the 1960s. I was looking into a related matter and this 'thread' came to my attention. Reading through it, I saw the Ballads & Blues mentioned and, since I had some of the relevant materials to hand, I thought I might contribute something. It was serendipity, I suppose.

The last name that I expected to see was Dean Gitter. His name had come up 10 or 15 years ago, to do with some film proposal he had in 1973. That proposal was peripherally connected to a Peckinpah film, an aspect of which a friend of mine has been looking into. While giving some help, Dean Gitter popped into my mind. And then his name was in this thread. Another stroke of serendipity.

I simply had not previously known that Dean Gitter had been in London folk clubs back then. I only knew the name because of that 1973 film proposal. I have since found his name in a March 1953 EVENING STANDARD article about the Ballads and Blues. So I now know that he performed there on 12 March 1953. It said he came from Boston, so, more out of curiosity than anything, I looked for newspaper reports in that general area and found quite a bit about him. A 1971 article said he got a scholarship to LAMDA and met his future wife, who ws British, in London. Apart from that and that one B&B appearance, I know nothing more of his time in London.

In the States, he recorded an LP ("Ghost Songs") and managed Odetta. Indeed, he wrote the notes for her 1956 Tradition LP, "Odetta Sings Ballads and Blues".

I wonder where he got that title from.

If you, or anyone here, can add anything else about Gitter's time in London, it would fun to learn more.

Yes, MELODY MAKER's "Folk Forum" column is an excellent research source and, some years back, I did a little digging at the British Library - perhaps I'll do some more some time. I also have quite a bit of "stuff" from the 1960s - folk mags and the like, old club membership cards, tickets, and some of my old pocket diaries.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:10 AM

OOPS! mea culpa. I got some dates mixed up in the third paragraph of the previous posting. It was 1958 not 1953.

The EVENING STANDARD article was published on Monday 17 March 1958, as an IN LONDIN LAST NIGHT piece, so Dean Gitter was at the Ballads and Blues on 16 March 1958.

Not sure how that happened - maybe a mix up with articles on the "Ballads and Blues" radio programmes in March/April 1953.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 06:03 AM

twm99

You have probably already done so but I just put Dean Gitter's name into my search engine and it comes up with a number of postings, profiles, obituary etc plus photographs from later in life.

Quite an interesting man.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 06:46 AM

I am aware of this photo of some club hosted by EM and his group. There were others from the same venue that included Heaney, I seem to recall. What I unfortunately can't recall is the venue where these were taken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 12:30 PM

Princess Louise, Holborn. I recognise the wallpaper.

I have a shot of E & P at around the same time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 12:58 PM

How do you post photos on this website?

And is there a limit as to the size of the file?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm909
Date: 06 Mar 24 - 07:58 PM

In an advert in JAZZ NEWS for 13 September 1961, the Ballads and Blues announced the opening of the SEVENDOWN club at 7 Carlisle Street, just off Soho Square, on Saturday, 16th September, with two sessions, one at 7.30 pm and another at 11.00 pm, the latter presumably offering an alternative to the Troubadour's late night session on a Saturday. The Ballads and Blues intended to open on several nights of the week but, by May 1962, SING was only listing the 7.30 pm Saturday session.

As for the Singers Club, the programme booklet for Pete Seeger's UK visit in October and November 1961 had this note at the bottom of a page: "The Singers' Club meets weekly at the Plough, 27 Museum Street, London W.1.". Neither the night nor start time is mentioned

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Mar 24 - 04:34 AM

twm909

That is a mystery to me, where did the information "open several nights a week" come from? I can only think that this referred to the Coffee Bar itself owned by Nick Faith. The B & B operated one night a week in the basement.

As I mentioned previously it was me who was running things at the B&B from the opening at 7 Carlisle Street 1961 until it's last night in Brewer Street(not Berwick Street that I posted above) in 1965.

.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm909
Date: 07 Mar 24 - 06:20 AM

I wasn't around the folk scene then, so I can't speak from personal knowledge but the advertisement I cited came from here:

https://nationaljazzarchive.org.uk/explore/journals/jazz-news/volume5-no37/1275906-jazz-news-volume5-no37-0010?q=ottilie%20patterson

If you can get the link, the advert is at the bottom of the second column on the right-hand page. It's not easy to read but, in the bottom left-hand corner of the screen there is a "+" sign which, if you press it, gives a 'magnifying glass' effect allowing you to read the detail more clearly.

The advert refers to "sessions" - two on the 16th September, two on the 23rd and one on the 24th. At the bottom of the ad, it says, "Thereafter, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays".

The location had, of course, previously been The Partisan coffeehouse but the advert does refer to "sessions" (and not, for example, "opening hours").

As I mentioned earlier, SING thought the club would reopen, after the summer break, on a Saturday only (but erroneously gave the ACTT premises as the location, which you corrected). In its November 1961 issue, SING provided the following details: "Sat. 7.30 and 11.00" and then added "(Open Thurs., Fri., Sat., and Sun. from 6 p.m. as a members' club)".

I can only report what I've found in contemporary publications, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 24 - 11:42 AM

twm909

It's not that important. The odd thing is that I was reviewing albums for Jazz News at the time (still have a few copies) and a few months later was working alongside the editor. There was obviously a misunderstanding somewhere.

Likewise with SING. The ACCT was where we were previously to 7 Carlisle Street.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Mar 24 - 04:25 PM

Apologies, the above post was from me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm909
Date: 17 Mar 24 - 09:06 AM

As far as I can gather, the Singers Club met on a Sunday evening from 1961 to 1963 (though, for a few months, from September 1962 to 12 January 1963, it met on both a Saturday and a Sunday).

Then, on Saturday, 15 February 1964, it opened at the Royal Hotel in Southampton Row.

Did it always meet on Saturday night after that? Or, at least, did it mostly meet on a Saturday night thereafter?

And, in what year, did the Singers Club cease to meet?

Can anyone help?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 24 - 03:43 AM

contact jim carroll on facebook.
or contact peggy seeger through her website

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 24 - 04:53 AM

well it was going in 1969. I encountered Ewan in 1969 at Farningham folk club, and at the time i thought he was an old bollocks.and so i decided to avoid his singers club , SO IT WAS GOING IN 1969

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 18 Mar 24 - 12:18 PM

Thank you, Mr Sandman.

I've been in touch with someone else on the subject and just been told that the Singers Club met at the Union Tavern in the early 1970s and that those sessions were held on a Saturday night.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Mar 24 - 05:25 PM

Sorry I can't remember the dates (probably late eighties or early nineties) but I attended twice when they were in a basement below a block of council flats in St John Street, Islington/Finsbury. Once when Mike and Penny Seeger came over and another time when Guy Carawan was there. On that evening the organizer in a slightly inebriated state complained loudly while he (Guy) was performing that Guy was singing the same songs that he been doing in the fifties. The same person that I had once to eject from the Ballads & Blues Club when he was in a similar condition.
If I can locate the photographs from the night with Mike and Penny I will have a date.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 18 Mar 24 - 07:28 PM

Could that have been the basement beneath Finsbury Library, as recounted in the "Ballad of the Travels", quoted earlier?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 04:33 AM

"Regarding the question about Lisa Turner. I cannot remember the song in question but I was there when it happened. He did not reprimand her just suggested that she should sing an English song instead of the one she announced. Lisa refused and stepped down.."Quote Hoot,

So when does a suggestion, Metamorphose to a reprimand.

Without the influence of MacColl and Lloyd, the encouragement of younger revival singers to seek out indigenous traditional material and listen to Traditional singers would not have happened.
This is what the singers club were aiming to achieve.They were also trying to educate younger singers that this was the music of the people, that music was not just commercial tinpan alley pop music. which is why i do not want to go to folk clubs and hear Cliff Pilchard

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 10:36 AM

twm909

I don't remember a library just a pretty gloomy room and that it was in one of the blocks of flats in St John Street. The date when Penny and Mike Seeger were there with Peggy and Ewan was 1988. By chance I just came across some photographs today.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 07:21 AM

"On-line" says Finsbury Library is at 245 St. John Street in EC1 and there appear to be flats above it, so it sounds like the same place.

And 1988 - as late as that.

Does anyone know when the Singers Club actually ceased meeting?

And was it a conscious decision?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 04:51 PM

contact jim carroll.
if you email me at dickmiles77'gmail.com
i can give you a contact

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,twm 909
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 05:21 AM

Many thanks for your help.

The Singers Club ceased in 1991 when Peggy Seeger returned to the United States.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'The Singer's Club'
From: GUEST,david parker
Date: 18 Apr 24 - 04:02 PM

joe heaneys daughter barbara has passed away .only his son michael left now.joe abandoned his family.no other word for it.great people they grew up to be.