BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies

Subject: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM

I wanted to start a thread separate from the Rush Limbaugh thread to discuss this subject, because for me, it isn't about Rush Limbaugh, but Paul Wellstone.

For the past month and a half or so, I have been struggling with my own personal need for healing the wounds ripped open by the neo-cons in the wake of Paul Wellstone's death a year ago. Being a native Minnesotan and life long activist who worked on many of the same issues with Wellstone and many others on the radical left here in Minnesota and throughout the nation and world, I felt personally savaged by the media and political establishment's rape and assault on the Wellstone family survivors, and the memory of the Wellstones and the other people who were killed in the plane crash. I will never forget the horrendous treatment the broader community of people coming together to greive, in our time of greatest vulnerability, received from both the local and national media and political establishment.

It is hard to describe how deeply wounded so many of us were by that soulless, vengeful savagery. So one year on, a lot of us are trying to come to grips with our need to heal those wounds and move on. Paul Wellstone never suggested that we not view the neo-cons as our enemies--he was always very clear about the allies/enemies thing. But one reason why Wellstone was begrudgingly admired by a handful of his enemies, was because of his integrity--especially his integrity as a warrior of the radical left. He didn't have to preach family values to others, because he lived them. His marriage and his family are a living testament of Paul Wellstone's values. And so that is where I looked for solace and healing when, over the past weeks, strong grieving emotions for the Wellstones and their legacy would occassionally overtake me in a private moment of reflection.

The one thing that has saved me from becoming bitter and cynical about the Rush Limbaughs and neo-cons of this world, is the absolute certainty of the knowledge that it is always, always too easy to hate, and too easy to seek revenge. Yet, I am not much of a believer in forgiveness as the ultimate solution either.

At the end of the day, I don't want to mirror or echo the hate, the venality, the greed, etc. of the neo-cons and their charlatan media whore champions. Which only leaves one way to work towards healing the wounds in me--to work very hard on digging deeper within myself to find the loving compassion I know lies beneath the hurt and betrayal, and to struggle with all my might to maintain whatever amount of personal integrity I have.

The only way I know of doing that is to let Rush Limbaugh be Rush Limbaugh, and the neo-cons be the neo-cons. I know we won't ever defeat them once and for all, because evil is always present in this world. The only reasonable, IMO, thing we can do is our best to struggle against it, and stand up and work for what we believe in.

I have no doubt that we are living through some very dark times right now--through yet another era of graft, greed, hate, and corruption. I know the world will not always be this way, which does make it a little easier to continue struggling against all these things I must oppose with every fiber of my being, because to do otherwise, including jumping on the vengeance bandwagon, would be a betrayal of who I am, not who the Rush Limbaughs of this world are.

Rant mode off.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:29 PM

Good toolbox HERE...

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:29 PM

I agree with just about every word you have written. So why do you feel the need to remain completely anonymous? Please give yourself at least a pseudonym so that at least we can identify you when you post again.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:35 PM

Not hating benefits the person refusing to hate. But we must never forget that our enemies do hate us. Their hatred is a significant portion of the fuel that fires their efforts. A man who refuses to hate must work twice as hard.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:38 PM

Thanks for the thoughtfulness in providing a link to a counseling website WYSIWYG, but I don't view what I am going through as something that require counseling. I am a firm believer that grieving is normal, natural, and healthy. It doesn't require counseling, or religion, but an adult acceptance of the world as it is, and the desire to learn and grow.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:10 PM

alanabit said: So why do you feel the need to remain completely anonymous? Please give yourself at least a pseudonym so that at least we can identify you when you post again.

Why not just accept it as an interesting post? Not everyone wishes to communicate in the same way as you. That you found the post of interest should be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:10 PM

There is no reason to hate your enemies -- they are just stupid people, much like ourselves. But if you have the integrity of your position, you won't spend a lot of time loving them, either, until you have made sure they can't harm or overrule you.

This requires knowing what you are standing for and why, though. A lot of people can't even state these things clearly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:17 PM

I agree that it is much harder and a lot more emotional and intellectual work not to hate, than to hate misophist. But I'm not just talking about not hating, I guess. I'm also talking about loving one's self first, aren't I? As you pointed out, not hating one's enemies requires a ton of work. And reaching a level of maturity as an adult, where loving acceptance of one's self and one's own human frailties becomes somewhat routine regardless of the stresses we face, is a ton of work. Personal experience has also taught me that it usually entails a good amount of pain and suffering too.

Maybe that is why it is so hard to maintain one's integrity over time. Enduring a good amount of pain and suffering isn't a choice many people choose to make, whether it is physical or psychic pain. And it is SO EASY to justify taking the easier way out of the pain, because you have a lot more company along that road, than you do the road to your own integrity. I don't feel like a saint about it though. It is actually fairly easy for me, because I'm a person who enjoys my solitude. So, while taking a stand for what I believe in (and I'm talking about taking a stand that results in negative consequences for me personally) is almost always really hard, for me, standing alone isn't so bad at all, because of the joy I find in solitude.

If that makes any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:19 PM

If you love someone you want what is good for them. What is good for hateful and repulsive people is that they should cease to be hateful and repulsive, and that's what you want to happen to them.

Think of loving them in that light and it's not so hard. It's not about feeling fond of them.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:23 PM

And I agree with alanabit - pleasestick a pseudonym on that "GUEST" of yours. Otherwise, if this thread goes on, and I think it should, some other nameless GUEST is certainly going to chip in, and it'll become very confusing. Particularly if it's a hatefilled "GUEST" as some of them can be.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:25 PM

Well McGrath, you must be a candidate for sainthood, because I don't love my enemies either. I just try and remain detached about them, and wary, certainly. That is quite wise, IMO. I also don't want to come off as holier-than-thou about this, because a) I'm no saint, and b) I'm not perfectly consistent about this. I struggle with feelings of hate too. But it usually doesn't take me long nowadays to realize I'm angry and frustrated and appalled, etc etc. But being angry, etc doesn't require me to hate.

But not hating my enemies doesn't mean I have to love them, either, IMO. That would be much too Catholic a solution, for my tastes (I was raised Catholic). I'd much rather settle for being detached about them, and dancing with my own demons.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:22 PM

"I know we won't ever defeat them once and for all, because evil is always present in this world."

wow.

I guess zealotry isn't the domain of the right is it?

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:33 PM

We're all of us by definition candidates for sainthood. That's one definition of a human being.

Loving your enemy means you want them to stop them being your enemy. Wanting that to happen isn't that far out of reach. Maybe if you hated them, and wanted to hold on the the hate, you wouldn't want them to change, because that might get in the way of doing that.

NB I'm writing this on the assumption that GUEST 19 Oct 03 - 02:25 PM is the same as GUEST 19 Oct 03 - 02:17 PM and GUEST 19 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM. However, as I pointed out in my last post, there's no reason some other GUEST might not be doing the posting, so I won't be responding to any further GUEST posts here without some kind of pseudonym (however temporary) attached to the GUEST, for the reasons I gave.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 07:39 PM

Guest, that's a peer-to-peer healing thing, not a counseling thing, actually.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: mg
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM

you could start by reframing your belief that they are evil. Not everyone who thinks differently than you is evil and needs to be smote by some such as yourself. Perhaps they are in thrall to their religious beliefs imposed by their culture. Perhaps they have very good intentions for humanity and see a different path to achieving it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 08:05 PM

Knowing evil when we see it has little to do with partisan political zealotry, John Hardly. There are plenty of evil doings going on across the political spectrum. In that, I include much of what the current and previous administrations have done. Politically, I'm a registered independent, which means I'm neither Democrat or Republican. So what sort of political zealot does that make me exactly?

You seem (to me) to be suggesting that glossing over the evil acts our political leaders commit (and that most the population colludes with) is what, morally superior to naming the evil and standing up against it, because that might make us appear to those who are the evil doers and their collaborators perceive us as zealots?

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 09:01 PM

Wow. A lot to respond to here. Guest, I agree wholeheartedly with your views, but I really agree with alan and McGrath about a temp handle. A lot of us onccasionally post as Guest after logging out, but we use a new handle to differentiate us from oher Guests.

I really only hate one person in my life, but it is soooo much trouble that I rarely bother. I would dearly love to have my sister back, but as long as she is married to the Sneaky Snake, I won't. Nuff said.

Hang in, Guest, you are on the right track.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 09:31 PM

I'm fully capable of distinguishing between people I disagree with politically, and people who are committing acts I believe to be evil.

I disagree with many people about many things in the course of a day, much less a lifetime. Disagreement doesn't bother me, any more than people holding differing opinions from me does. But people engaging in evil, which I define according to my values, not anyone else's--I view as something very different.

I once encountered a director of a nursing home whom I believe was the embodiment of evil, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with politics. And I called that man evil to his face, in front of his staff. Many people were deeply shocked by my behavior. So be it. That man, and the people who worked with him, know that I not only saw through the authoritarian veneer he hid behind as he committed some seriously evil acts against both the nursing home residents and it's staff, but that I was willing to risk his wrath and my job, to confront him and his evil doings. He was not fired, and he was not jailed, although both things should have befallen him for what he did (which included breaking the law). He was, however, reported to state authorities who regulate nursing homes. He was investigated, found guilty of the very evil acts of which I had accused him, and the nursing home (not him) received a warning.

Like I said, most people will collude with the evil doers every time. That is how Enrons happen, and wars against impoverished third world countries who can't fight back happen, and that is exactly how now Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota won his Congressional seat in November 2002.

IMO, the banality of evil is well protected by most of us. There are always those who will insist that politeness, or political correctness, or conforming to the dominant view, or fear of being ostracized or punished, or the desire to win at any cost--whatever the justification might be--demands we NOT name evil for what it is when it is confronting us. After all, no one wants to be called a zealot for speaking out, now do they? We all know that having the courage of one's convictions makes one a zealot, right?

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 09:43 PM

Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate -- and quickly.

Robert A. Heinlein, in the Notebooks of Lazarus Long

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 05:33 AM

"...I really agree with alan and McGrath about a temp handle. And still no acknowledgement of this from the GUEST in question. I can't help feeling very suspicious about this.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 08:53 AM

There is a strong movement by many on the left to frame the issue of hating *behaviors and policies* of the neo-cons. This is an imporatnt difference if we are to capture the imagination of the American people. The neo-cons, after they displayed an 8 years hatred of Bill Clinton, turned the tables quite nicely in getting people to think that that hating the president is somehow veru un-American... So, we have to saty the course and learn the new comapny line 'er we're not going to get these dangerous people out... And we have to think as Jesus would about the way we think of our fellow man which is not inconsitent with hating bad policies and rude behaviors...

Yeah, I know it is tough. But it's part of who we are and what we value, or should, as folks on left be or value...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:11 AM

Perhaps they have very good intentions for humanity and see a different path to achieving it

Equally valid assumptions are that perhaps they're assholes or fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:20 AM

"Perhaps they have very good intentions for humanity and see a different path to achieving it" Do you mean like Hitler, Lenin, and Mao?

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 07:52 PM

Personally, I find that hating someone or a situation takes up a great deal of energy that could be much better spent. Sure I bitch and moan about stuff....but then I do my best to move on to something more worthwhile. Hate doesn't change anything but the person doing the hating.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 08:50 PM

Hating people spoils your aim. I meam that figuratively (though I believe it's true literally as well).

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 08:51 PM

As Che Guevara put it "A Revolutionary Is Motivated By True Feelings Of Love"

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:53 AM

Have you ever met someone without a conscience? I have, more than once. Do NOT make such a person your friend.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 01:16 PM

a person without a conscience is incapable of being a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 02:04 PM

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it Guest?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:52 PM

So too, is Axis, Sir R! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:55 PM

Returning to the original subject of the thread...I think it is unwise and unhealthy to hate anyone. Of hatred it is said that it consumes the vessel which contains it. Hatred, like all negative emotions, is very harmful to the nervous system and psyche of the one doing the hating, and it doesn't lead anywhere useful.

As for "enemies", the wise person doesn't have any...although some unwise people may name him or her their enemy on occasion, due to their own misunderstanding.

I have people I disagree with, but I don't have enemies. I have gone through periods of hating this or that person, not to any useful effect, I can assure you.

To say that I strongly disapprove of a political group or their actions is not to say I hate the people involved in it. I may be concerned about them, and I may have to take action regarding them, but why get drawn into hating them? It's a toxic emotion.

To recognize evil is prudent. To face it is courageous. To hate those practicing it is to fail to see them as the complete beings they are.

The best way to proceed in life is to decide what you love and put your energy there, where it can do the most good, rather than staying focused on what you hate.

I have to remind myself of this just as much and as often as anyone else, by the way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:26 PM

Little Hawk: Your argument is impressive but it fails to take sociopaths, psychopaths, and the few willful bastards who do evil for it's own sake into account. I have it first hand that hating Hitler and hating Nazis helped a lot of men make it through WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:31 PM

There is no such a thing as evil. Evil is a void which can only be filled with love. Enguaging evil with hate, creates that same void in your own heart.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 05:40 PM

Being enemies doesn't necessarily mean that either of you hate each other. How does hating someone make it easier to defeat them, if defeating them is something you think needs to be done?

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:09 PM

It's the emotion of hatred I'm arguing against, Mack, not the legitimate courage and resolve to defend oneself against an attack.

It's also natural to feel the emotion of hatred when under extreme threat from some persecutor, but it's still not a useful emotion...and it's particularly damaging when people hand onto it long after the threat has vanished.

The Nazis did not see themselves as evildoers, they saw themselves as defenders of all that was good and decent. They saw themselves as the saviours of Western Christian society. (They weren't anything of the sort, but that's how they saw it!) The fact that their key leaders, such as Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler and many others pandered so much to the emotion of hatred to establish a following pretty well guaranteed that the Nazi movement would end up being a very destructive one, and sow the seeds of its own demise.

So, watch out for leaders who work hard on the hatred angle, I'd say. That would include both Mr Bin Laden AND the Bush administration, who are each intent on hating each other to the bitter end.

I prefer warriors who respect their adversaries, honor them, and see in them a reflection of themselves...but it takes a lot of vision to do that, and it doesn't occur to most people most of the time.

What made the Nazis strong and effective was their love of country, their patriotism, their discipline, and the other positive emotions that underlay their sense of duty. What made them weak and doomed them at last to a bitter defeat was their unthinking allegiance to the power of hatred. They finally had created just a few too many enemies. I think the same thing may happen to the USA eventually, if it persists in empire-building all over the world by military force and financial blackmail.

You're right that hating Hitler and the Nazis was a strong motivator for Allied soldiers, but loving what they were fighting for was a stronger one, I believe. Everyone who willingly fights in a war fights primarily in defence of his own identity and that which he knows and loves. (which is exactly what most German soldiers were doing, but they had very misguided leadership at the top).

To assume that the enemy is "evil" is a simplistic and usually highly inaccurate assumption...but it makes great sounding propaganda. Just ask Goebbels about that.

As for sociopaths and psychotics...they are sick people. What good could it possibly do to hate a sick person? You don't have to hate him to stop him from hurting people, you just have to take appropriate actions...in defence of what you love.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 07:02 PM

Little Hawk, I havn't previously posted to this thread ,but your obviously heartfelt messages have impressed me deeply .
I agree with everything you say ,and it all corresponds with my own personal phylosophy.
From your words i'm sure you have found peace of mind and understanding. The things we all search for in life
   Best wishes Ake..

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 08:31 PM

Thanks, Akenaton. I'm working on it...the old hatreds don't always die easily. I like your membername.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 11:05 PM

The emotion one feels in a period of hatred is an intense anger, usually, and an impulse to destroy the target of that anger.

This is a perfectly legitimate and rational emotion under certain circumstances, such as hand-to-hand combat or even intense struggle for survival in some other venue. It is possible but much more rare to feel enthusiasm while fighting for one's life, but a good solid anger is not misplaced.

When it persists after the actual moment, and goes on to inform a person's whole life, it becomes a misplaced emotion, the basis for neurotic or psychotic behavior.

A

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM

DougR,

No, I don't think evil is in the eye of the beholder--particularly when we are talking about the banality of evil, and how often the majority colludes with it.

Although I do agree there is sometimes widespread disagreement on acts of evil and evildoers within a society that is sustaining evil acts and evil doers, as has been the case throughout history. For instance, many people around the world now agree that what the Bush administration is doing in the Middle East, is evil. And I would include the acts committed in the name of the US in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel, as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people internationally also view the unilateral abrogation of the nuclear treaties by the Bush administration to be acts of evil.

Another exampleis 9/11. Not too many people in the world see the events of 9/11 in any terms but evil ones, except for a small minority of people who support the evil acts of those evil doers.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Raedwulf
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:42 PM

Another exampleis 9/11. Not too many people in the world see the events of 9/11 in any terms but evil ones, except for a small minority of people who support the evil acts of those evil doers.

Funnily, enough Mr (or is it Ms?) irritatingly anonymous Guest, the people responsible for that are resolute believers that

what the Bush administration is doing in the Middle East, is evil.

which is why they did the former. It rather makes a mess of your statement that I don't think evil is in the eye of the beholder, though I don't suppose you'll be able to see why.

And give yourself a bloody handle!!! How many more times? Call yourself "Struggling with hate", or something, but refusing to and blankly ignoring members' perfectly reasonable requests to do so is grossly impolite.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:54 PM

Well, I agree with Raedwulf about that GUEST's manners - but I can't follow the logic of the earlier bit.

No doubt the September 11th organisers and perpetrators believed that "what the Bush administration is doing in the Middle East, is evil". That doesn't make what they did on Septemeber 11th any less evil.

And the fact that what happened on Septemebr 11th was evil doesn't in any way mean that what Bushg is doing in the Middle East is any the less evil.

Bush and Bin Laden clearly differ on a lot of things - but it seems fairly evident that they are agreed on one thing, and that is that, in the course of attacking what you believe is supremely evil, it is alright to kill thousands of innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:57 PM

Well, I agree with Raedwulf about that GUEST's manners - but I can't follow the logic of the earlier bit.

No doubt the September 11th organisers and perpetrators believed that "what the Bush administration is doing in the Middle East, is evil". That doesn't make what they did on September 11th any less evil.

And the fact that what happened on September 11th was evil doesn't in any way mean that what Bush is doing in the Middle East is any the less evil.

Bush and Bin Laden clearly differ on a lot of things - but it seems fairly evident that they are agreed on one thing, and that is that, in the course of attacking what you believe is supremely evil, it is alright to kill thousands of innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

In other words, "two wrongs don't make a right".

You cannot defeat evil by imitating it. (But you may score a temporary "victory", and to many, if not most people...that is all that matters.) Movies and TV dramas are generally sustained and inspired by such primitive emotional scenarios, and this encourages such an attitude in people generally.

The terrorist is invariably someone who believes he is responding to an unjustified attack or persecution upon his people (or some people somewhere) (or even animals or plants somewhere). Reacting emotionally in the most visceral way possible he lashes out in violence at the "evildoers", as he sees it...and usually kills or harms a whole bunch of innocent bystanders. The people he lashed out at then declare him a terrorist and practice counter-terrorism in return, using their own weapons of mass destruction...and kill or harm a whole bunch of innocent bystanders. If they're lucky, they may even get a few of the original terrorists, of course, but the game seldom ends there...

In the 60's the Weather Underground did this, protesting the Vietnam War, racism, and capitalist exploitation of America. Their ideals were of the highest, their conscious intentions were laudable, their methods were violent and terrorist in nature.

Bin Laden did it numerous times, culminating in the attack on the WTC.

The American government has done it numerous times in a great many places, most recently in Iraq.

The Israelis and the Palestinians do it to each other on a regular basis.

It's all terrorism, and it's all a great shame.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:08 PM

it is too much work to hate your enemies, either personal ones or societal ones (big difference)

but it is energy well spent to know your enemies. There is nothing so satisfying as outflanking them on occasion, because you outwitted them.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:43 PM

Now, what is truly noble and virtuous is not to "love your enemies," which is truly an oxy-acetyline moron. That's right, tell 'em "oh, I love you, it's just yer filthy ideas I hate." "I'll pray for you every night, so that you see the light, like me! "That always goes over big. Sort of like the old saying "A soft answer turneth away wrath, and besides, it makes him madder than anything else you you could've said!" (Heh! Heh!)

Rather, true virtue is not to have any enemies. I'm not sure I can achieve that blissful state, but you guys are probably more soulful than I.

Hating sounds like a very exhausting activity. But perhaps it's unavoidable.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 02:02 AM

If you go around telling your erstwhile enemies how much you love them, toadfrog...I see a great deal of trouble and embarrassment in your future. :-) They will not have the least idea what you are talking about (assuming you even meant it in the first place), and I don't believe for one minute that that's what Jesus had in mind when he gave those teachings. It almost invariably doesn't work. Did Jesus tell the moneylenders how much he loved them before he threw them out of the temple? Declarations of love are wasted on people who don't care.

You're quite right that the wise and virtuous tend not to have any enemies...unless in the power of their wisdom they begin to effect noticeable social change! Then they suddenly have a whole lot of enemies, and very dangerous ones too. Witness what happened to Christ, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, etc...

To "love" people, in spiritual terms means: to wish them no ill, but rather wish them well at the deepest, most profound level. This does not mean you have to love their outward personality, their outward behaviour, or anything else they are projecting onto the world around them...nor does it mean you have to PUT UP WITH IT! I don't.

Wrongdoers don't learn a thing if people put up with them, so the most loving thing you can do for them is not to put up with them. How else are they going to change?

If you don't believe people have eternal souls...or if you don't believe that the soul is intrinsically good (regardless of the rotten outer personality it may be temporarily acting through, as a result of abject fear)...then what I've said may not make sense to you at all.   

And if that's the case, so be it.

- LH

p.s. And of all the abject fear in the World, organized religion has probably cast the biggest load of it on a suffering humanity in the last few thousand years, so don't think I'm talking for some fundamentalist church. I'm not. Then there are the military organizations...they've done a pretty good job of it too, specially since the invention of the A-bomb. When people are afraid and overcrowded, they turn nasty. Same thing happens with animals. I'm frankly surprised we're doing as well as we are, considering the pressures we're all under.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 08:11 PM

GUEST: It seems to me that you support my point. The people who are responsible for 9/11, and those who support them, do not view what they did as evil! In some of the Mid-Eastern cities there was rejoycing in the streets! Did they view that 9/11 tragedy as evil? Of course not!

McGrath said it was so it must have been. One of the few times McGrath and I agree on something. :>)

However, I stick by my statement. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

One more point: is it to be assumed that because a person's view of subject differs from others, that person should be hated? Because there is disagreement does it follow that one or the other is evil?

My views on most political subjects discussed on the Mudcat differ from the majority here, but I certainly don't think those who view things differently are evil, nor do I hate them. Even Bobert! Even McGrath! :>)

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:20 PM

My point was that there was an essential similarity between the ethical position of Bin Laden and Bush (and those who agree with them). Both evidently believe that they are combatting something supremely evil, and that this justifies actions which mean the death of many thousands of innocent people.   

I think that the general view of people who believe this kind of thing is that, while killing thousands of innocent people is indeed evil, it is a necessary and therefore a justified evil, rather than a good thing in itself.

I agree that in a real sense "evil is in the eye of the beholder" - people who are involved too closely in actions which are profoundly evil, such as September 11, are virtually certain to have found ways of justifying these to themselves. Only if you are "a beholder" - including victims in that term - can you see such actions for what they really are.

In order to understand an adversary, which is important if you wish to anticipate what they might do, and how they might react, it is necessary to recognise that in their eyes what they do is either good or else a necessary evil.

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:42 PM

Well, danged, Dougie! (The Bobert wipes a tear from his cheek...) I'z real glad that you don't hate me! Real glad. And I don't hate you either... Might of fact, I loves ya', even if you is a knucklehead... which, of course, you are....

And I love Mr. Bush, though he makes you look like Timothy Leary, but I'm purdy danged steamed at him fir all the stupid stuff he has done to our country.... But I don't happen to *like* anything about Mr. Bush.

But, hey, Dougie, I like you!!! Sure do... Yer' gotta a sense o' humor. Mr. Bush only thinks than when other folks are gettin' hurt that it's funny...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: On Not Hating One's Enemies
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM

I thought it was fairly obvious, McG. Those that flew the planes into the WTC did so because they believed they were justified. Justified by the fact that what America does to the ME (in their opinion) is evil. Killing is not against Islam. If you must, then you may do so, & they felt that they had to. Actually, it's not even against christianity (depending on how you translate the hebrew).

This is not the argument that anonymous, craven, absent Guest makes. Guest seems to be a zealot whose argument is "what hurts me is evil". Perhaps not as rigidly so as some zealots, but notice that acts outside of Guest's cultural knowledge are automatically labelled as evil, regardless of the fact that they are justifiable by cultures that Guest seems to have no understanding of.

I am not a monotheist, & I believe in neither absolute good, nor absolute evil. I will defend even Hitler from the charge of evil. I can apply many adjectives to him. I think he was a raving lunatic. Twisted, warped, misguided, foolish, narrow-minded, & self-blinded. But he did what he felt was justified & what he felt was *right*. We judge him because he lost, not because he was wrong. Is he therefore evil?

Are *you* (whoever *you* are) so very, perfectly, absolutely, unequivocally right? Think again. Because that's what Adolf thought, too! Scary isn't it?

I don't believe in Evil. I do believe in humanity, whose follies & graces have been conspiciously demonstrated throughout all history. Evil is deliberately acting against what you accept is right, & few do that.

(N.B. I know that last remark is not watertight, but I cannot do better just now. I know what I mean, I hope someone else can make it plainer! ;) )