BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit

Subject: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:30 PM

While fisting the poor in England in the name of the deficit (we're all in this together, yah? - Oh except the bankers I knew at Oxfoahd we really need them) Osborne now proposes to take the money he gouges from the poor and give it to Ireland so that they can give it to their bankers...


Bend over, he's going to put one arm right up your arse, and, if you are female, the other one adjacent. Grosser fisting than on any internet porn site.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Rumncoke
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:14 PM

Today the DH reported that the Irish firm which had been neglecting to pay for work done has finally sent over some money - so what seems to be happening is that the British government is subbing the Irish government, who are bunging it to the Irish banks who are lending it to Irish businesses and they are paying their debts to English firms.

No doubt with a good bit creamed off the top for expenses, as usual.

Still we're in business for a little longer, until the cutbacks in the emergency services' budgets really kick in.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

Excuse the expression, but this sounds for all the world like a circle jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:56 PM

Wouldn't it be a better idea if our government gave money to us rather than to the Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:48 AM

A lot of this seems to be down to the greed of property developers - who, no doubt aided and abetted by the banks, flooded Ireland with houses that no-one now wants to buy. I suppose that this is classic capitalism in action - just keep on building and building and building. Then, at the top of the market, a few people get very rich. After a while there are more houses than buyers and the whole thing collapses and lots of people lose out big-time.

This seems to me to be a very odd way to run the world. Still, what do I know? There's really no alternative ... is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

"Wouldn't it be a better idea if our government gave money to us rather than to the Irish?"

And what about the 985 million the government give in overseas aid to Africa, India and Pakistan each year Richard,or is it just the Irish you want to exclude ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:45 AM

"Wouldn't it be a better idea if our government gave money to us rather than to the Irish?"
Sounds like just another skirmish in your Anti-Irish campaign Richars and bound to draw out all the closet racists - whoops, there goes one of them!!!
"And what about the 985 million the government give in overseas aid to Africa, India and Pakistan each year"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Arnie
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:23 AM

Maybe we could divert some of the aid money we send to China? They're building whole new towns in Mongolia that hardly anyone lives in. Chinese speculators are buying up new flats as soon as they're built and leaving them empty as an investment. In fact, it may solve the Irish empty homes problem if they marketed them to the Chinese?

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:45 AM

Perhaps Richard should just get on with his conveyancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:59 AM

Despite the attempts over the years for the situation to be otherwise by many, both lawfully and otherwise, it is a fact that instability in Ireland is as risky to UK economical recovery as if a shire county had gone to the wall. My business dealings over the years have included Ireland as "home" territory, rather than classed as overseas custom.

And many more do too.

Whether we can afford to help is perhaps a legitimate moot point for discussion, but by the same token, whether we can afford not to?

An insolvent Ireland helps nobody, least of all us. Mind you, I notice North of the border, Alex Salmond has stopped rattling on about emulating the Celtic tiger.....

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM

Jim, would you care to elaborate on your remark about me being a closet racist ? Frankly I find it offensive and uncalled for.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:45 PM

I don't mind sending money to Ireland, as long as they don't use it to build any more of those damn bungalows, which are smothering every beauty spot. In return, perhaps the Irish could stop banging on about the horrors created by Cromwell and the famine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

"Jim, would you care to elaborate on your remark about me being a closet racist?"
Richie; two points.
1 Reading your diatribe against the student demonstration against the cuts I put you down as a right-of-right winger.
2. One of the planks of the right's argument is the money that leaves Britain to subsidise foreigners.
Following your "985 million the government give in overseas aid to Africa, India and Pakistan each year" I put two and two together.
I would be delighted if I have come up with 5 and you are not trotting out the old BNP et-al line about foreign aid, and would be happy to unreservadly withdraw my remark and apologise profusely - until which time, stet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

I don't mind aid to those in need - I object when it's going to shore up banks that will be handing out E1,000,000 per head bonuses again next year... Just subsidising the bonusses.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:39 PM

Well I quite like the look of those Irish bungalows. We don't have nice big bungalows like that. I have to live in a bungalow. English bungalows are dead pokey.

Anyway, what's so great about having a country like Scotland - 95% beauty spots and no bungalows?

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:44 PM

its all wrong they should send the money straight to me, Dick Miles benevolent fund.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:06 PM

yes Dick could be trusted with spending the money wisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:17 PM

France would have a wine lake, Ireland would have a concertina mountain.

Subject: RE: BS: Sbsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:24 PM

Ah-hah! Subsidise folk singer and morris dancer visits to France - result, no wine lake.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:31 PM

I've just had a thought. If Ireland takes English money maybe we should station a few black and tans in Dublin Castle to make sure they send it wisely.

Oh, and require new tax rules so that companies that have been based in England can't relocate to Ireland to save half their corporation tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM

Any help given to Ireland by other countries in the EU, including "the UK" (meaning England) is not altruistic. It's provided because it is in their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:54 AM

Please clarify, by 'their' interests, is it in the interests of the states as a whole, or just the interests of the privilege few?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:53 AM

"I've just had a thought. If Ireland takes English money maybe we should station a few black and tans in Dublin Castle to make sure they send it wisely. "
You've just squared you circle of logic Richard - you appear to be still fighting the Irish War of Independance.
McGrath is right, anybody who thinks of foreign aid as an act of altruism should seek out the excellent (probably long out-of-print) 'Aid As Imperialism' by Teresa Hayter (daughter of one-time Conservative minister).
Aid is a way of maintaining a political and economic foothold in countries which might otherwise take their business and support elsewhere, it is an act of investment rather than charity, a fact that continues to keep the 'Great' in Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:25 AM

Well no, Jim, I was just thinking of the Irish two-step

1. Filthy colonialists, out
2. Oh, we need money, have you got any?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:53 AM

"2. Oh, we need money, have you got any? "
Oh come onnnnn Richard; you know better than that. Britain ponced off the world for centuries, and when we pulled out - reluctantly, not only had we manipulated economies and destroyed cultures "For God, Queen and Empire", we left many of our former colonies in shit-order - Ireland being a perfect example.
Pay-back time, I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:00 AM

I don't know what this thing is with Jim and Richard and frankly I couldn't care less. However, there seem to be some underlying assumptions here:

1)The feckless Irish don't deserve help and in any case it shows that they aren't capable of governing themselves and we told you so:

2)Ireland is owed help by Britain on account of 800 years of imperialism and to suggest otherwise is racist.

The truth, as usual, probably falls somewhere in the middle. My own view is that partition set up not one but two corrupt sectarian states in Ireland. The smaller one had manifestly failed by the early 70s when the British abolished it and introduced direct rule. The second one carried on for a while longer under the pretence of 'Independence' even though, like Britain, it had surrendered its economic independence when it joined the EEC in 1973 - though even before that its independence was limited by the parameters of its relationships with other, richer countries (mostly the UK).

There's a couple of ways of looking at what the current situation means. As I mentioned earlier, there's the view that the mismanagement of the Irish economy is a function of the 26-county Irish state's lack of fitness for purpose.   In other words, independence, like partition, was an experiment which has now failed.

On the other hand, there's the view that Britain had to go to the IMF in the 70s and survived the experience. I think as far as the IMF issue is concerned this is the more realistic view. I don't see the IMF having any more leverage over Irish economic sovereignty than the bond markets, with the (limited) advantage that the IMF have, in theory, some accountability.

With regards to the question of bilateral aid from Britain to the Irish banking system I think it is quite reasonable to point out that this is being done to protect British financial institutions from the consequences of their own exposure to the Irish financial crisis. In other words, the Irish banks need propping up to protect British banks their own profligate lending to Irish banks over the last 15 years or so. If Irish banks fail, British banks take a bath. It's purely business and it has nothing to do with either altruism or imperialism (other than in the Leninist definition of economic imperialism).

I do think, however, that the crisis shows up fundamental flaws in the way Ireland is governed. Ireland has a system of government based on the Westminster model. I don't think it suits the country very well. For it to work in any real sense for the benefit of the governed there needs to be a real ideological difference between the parties in the legislature so that voters have a genuine choice (that's if you buy into the notion of liberal democracy in the first place - once Ireland gets mentioned on the Mudcat we always seem to hear from folk who clearly don't).

Without that choice parliamentarism and cabinet government quickly descends even further into cronyism, corruption and 'what's in it for me'. The only reason it ever worked even for a while in the UK was that we had a Labour party that was at least somewhat different from the establishment party and which had a grass-roots base in the working class. Plus there was a rival system in operation which posed a threat to the ruling class. To forestall revolutionary change based on another system of economic organisation the ruling class was minded to concede measures to forestall that change (like the NHS, the welfare state, the 40-hour week and so on). Now that that's gone the British state is every bit as corrupt as the Irish state.

The Irish state's weakness has always been that there's never really been an ideological underpinning to its existence apart from this thing called 'The National Question' - in other words identity of the state has always been defined in opposition to the state that is its closest neighbour and with which it has the most in common.

I'd go on but that's all I have time for just now.

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:11 AM

I was over in Dublin at the weekend, stopping with a friend / old business colleague near Leopardstown. He told me to walk with my eyes open over the weekend and see how many much you see has come to Ireland via the Uk.

Many manufacturers, wherever they work, wish to sell their goods into Ireland. And historically, through laziness and market size, they have done so via their British operation. The companies I was involved with all did the same.

Like I said at the outset, Britain's recovery will be even more fragile with a weak Ireland on the doorstep.

Of course, as many have pointed out, aid is rarely altruistic. It can however have an other big word associated with it; serendipity.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Van
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:29 AM

McGrath - since when did the UK mean England? The Welsh, Northern Irish, and Scots all pay tax to the exchequer so I believe it's our money too.

Still, Harlow is in Essex so we have to make allowances;)

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST, RIchard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:43 AM

Lending people money so they can pay what they owe you is not clever.

If the concern is the effect on UK banks of the Irish banks failing, get ready to nationalise the UK banks properly and make them act in the best interests of people in the UK not of the receipients of obscene bonusses and salaries rewarding counterproductive economic behaviour. The separation of risk and reward in banking needs fixing - but giving more money, via the Irish government, to the Irish banks is not the way to fix it.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:03 AM

"Ireland is owed help by Britain on account of 800 years of imperialism and to suggest otherwise is racist."
Didn't say that Scouser - my reference to racism was aimed in the direction of those who object to "giving money to foreigners when it is better spent at home" - otherwise, I have no objection to either yours or Steamin' Willie's excellent summings up.
I do think that in many cases colonialism created built in weaknesses in many of the former colonies and that to some degree Britain recognised this and took some steps to keep those newly independent countries on her side; but that's probably an argument for elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:06 AM

Why do you think that?
Prejudice?
In what way are former British colonies weaker than their peers?
Examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:54 AM

"Why do you think that?"
Ireland was left a 'temporarily' partitioned country which has led to 80 odd years of unrest - but we've been there, done that, haven't we?
The most developed part of the country, which also had the best land, remained under British control = 70 odd years of emigration.
"Prejudice?"
See you haven't abandoned your tendency to smear rather than argue Keith - where on earth does prejudice come into the equasion? I seem to remember that it was you who said he wished the Irish would all go back to where they came from.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 10:14 AM

Nationalise the UK banks! Screams Richard, rather predictably.

Never knew you trusted Osborne enough to give them to him?

Or is it that you want to nationalise them after your "workers'" revolution? In which case I reckon it would more a case of Ireland having to bail us out afterwards.

Propping up those who owe you might not seem clever, but nobodies' looking for clever solutions, just ones with a chance of success. And less of the body fluids or its back to Richard III.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM

You chose your name. I use my real one. Anyway, AFAIK Richard III was very popular indeed in the north certainly prior to his reign and for all I know during it too. The prejudiced joke lampooning Irish pronunciation may be what you have in mind, but while I may disagree with southern Irish vernacular politics (to express it politely) I do not and would not mock their accents.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:13 PM

Oh heck, he reckons its offensive to those of an emerald disposition now... No, you silly sausage, just well aimed in your general direction, if that makes you feel important.

I suppose with your republican ideas, I should be calling you Oliver Cromwell, but on reflection, Richard III is less offensive to our friends in brown trousers, brown shoes and green ties.

I do keep saying that I had never heard of an offensive definition of Steamin' Willie. You did educate me there, although normally I am not allowed to play with the naughty boys. My Mum brought me up better than that. "Don't go playing with those conveyencers!" She would yell. "They know naughty words and read naughty books!"

So I did look up the link you kindly supplied, and I blushed. That's why I could never do your job as well as you do. I know how to blush.....

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:14 PM

Jim, you always make Britain the villain of your posts.
If you can not justify that, you are indeed guilty of blind prejudice and bigotry.
Britain did not want Ireland partitioned.
There was no choice.
The army of the Republic could not subjugate the North, and the British army would not.
Now what about "I do think that in many cases colonialism created built in weaknesses in many of the former colonies and that to some degree Britain recognised this and took some steps to keep those newly independent countries on her side"
Any examples?

As for smears, you have just called respectable contributors "racist"

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM

I missed the nastiest smear of all.
"I seem to remember that it was you who said he wished the Irish would all go back to where they came from."
A lie.
A deliberate misrepresentation of what I actually said, which was that we do not want NI in the UK, just as you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 01:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith a - PM
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:14 PM

Jim, you always make Britain the villain of your posts.
If you can not justify that, you are indeed guilty of blind prejudice and bigotry.
Britain did not want Ireland partitioned.
There was no choice.
The army of the Republic could not subjugate the North, and the British army would not.
Now what about "I do think that in many cases colonialism created built in weaknesses in many of the former colonies and that to some degree Britain recognised this and took some steps to keep those newly independent countries on her side"
Any examples?

As for smears, you have just called respectable contributors "racist"
What a lot of in correct facts

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

"Nationalise the UK banks! Screams Richard, rather predictably."
Tend to agree with Willie under the prevailing circumstances - I wouldn't like to see the banks fully in the hands of crooks and icompetents, which they would be as things stand at the present time.
However, can't see he has any reason for disparaging the idea of placing the banks under control of the people at a future date - they couldn't make a worse job of it than the present crowd.
We have been told that the present crisis will last from four to ten years (no doubt an extremely optomistic projection) during which time we will see cuts in the health service, leading to an increase in poor health throughout the section of the population affected, and even deaths). Schools, social services, care homes - all will no doubt fall under the axe. There will be a rise in homelessness due to home owners not being able to meet morgage commitments, pensions will be put under scrutiny to see if they can be milked, wages will be cut and working conditions will deteriorate ..... there will be a significant general reduction in the living standards of working people, and this reduction will be targeted at the poorest and most vunerable in our society.
This is not just a case of a few greedy bankers (I think that's the right word) and corrupt and inefficient politicians - it is a major breakdown in the system we live under.
It really is necessary that people should not take this lying down and that they should consider ALL options.
I watched a leading banker being interviewed on Irish television two nights ago - he said that the present "dip" in the economy was part of the general economic fluctuation and that bankers such as himself were in no way responsible for the present state of affairs.
Now where did I put my red shirt?
Keith:
"A deliberate misrepresentation of what I actually said,"
A word of advice; never, but never state publicly anything that you may wish to disassociate yourself from at a later date.
You'll be telling us next that you never gave your support to belligerant sectarian marches and described those of us who find them offensive "killjoys".
Head between the knees and deep breaths now!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:08 AM

I hear the Irish government is holding to the position that the 12.5% corporation tax rate is 'non-negotiable'. In other words they are clinging to the right to allow multi-nationals to make huge profits without giving anything back to the country. Looking at the letters in yesterday's 'Irish Times' (by tradition, no champion of nationalism, it must be said) I suspect that a lot of Irish people would be quite happy for the IMF to override the Irish state's 'sovereignty' in this regard if it means that ordinary Irish people have to foot less of the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:00 AM

when FF come canvassing for my vote ,they will get some direct action.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:53 AM

I don't understand ! Why is it that a country which does NOT,by choice, use the "Euro" (what a stupid name !), give financial aid to a country that DOES ?? Let France, Germany,or some other EURO country (but not Greece !) bail out the Irish banks ! Erin Go Bust !!

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:58 AM

Why does Gerry Adams want to go south for Sinn Fein?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 10:25 AM

"Germany,or some other EURO country (but not Greece !) bail out the Irish banks ! Erin Go Bust !!"
I think you'll find that the offer to bail out Irish banks is under offer from Europe at the present time.
As has been pointed out, Britain's offer has more to do with keeping a toe-hold in Ireland than 'bailing Irish banks out' - merely a business investment or 'Aid As Imperialism', as the lady wrote.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 10:39 AM

And another flash point?! Or will it be gratefully received and forelocks tugged?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

"Or will it be gratefully received and forelocks tugged?"
At the present time the government is doing a Richard III and has refused the bail out (don't know if that's 3 times).
Watch this space.
BTW mikesamwild
Are you related to the Sam Wild who was in Spain at the same time as my father?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 12:51 PM

I am considering voting for sinn fein.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

Jim , yes - I PMd you

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

Jim, you posted,
" "A deliberate misrepresentation of what I actually said,"
A word of advice; never, but never state publicly anything that you may wish to disassociate yourself from at a later date.
You'll be telling us next that you never gave your support to belligerant sectarian marches and described those of us who find them offensive "killjoys"."

It was a misrepresentation.
You may have innocently overlooked the context of my remark once, but I have pointed it out to you previously.
Restating it is deliberate misrepresentation.
As for the marches, I care nothing but others do.
As they now pass off peacefully, even according to Sinn Fein, why persecute Unionists for their different cultural traditions?

And why bring up the partition of Ireland in this thread at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:49 PM

I noted above that Chris B reckons the Irish people would want the corporation tax to be increased.

Not, methinks, the hundreds of thousands of those employed by companies who relocated to Ireland, creating jobs on the back of the low corporation tax.

The EU are quite right not to like the tax rate, as it does skew the ""common market" philosophy somewhat. Also, the British Government may well not like contributing, but as I said above, regardless of what we like or don't like, we can't afford to see them sink any more than seeing Yorkshire sink. Busimess and commerce as ever make political and nationalistic discussions irrelevant. Ireland and The UK are one market, hence the brown trousers discussions at HM Treasury.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge (the computer is complex)
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

Jim - your banks (and indeed ours) are already under the control of crooks and incompetents. The change could only be for the better.

I am amazed to see that I am close to agreeing with the Vulcan (John Redwood) about the unwisdom of the UK snatching back £2.5 billion from the poor to "lend" up to £7 billion to Southern Ireland when we don't know if it will be paid back.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:55 PM

".... to "lend" up to £7 billion to Southern Ireland when we don't know if it will be paid back. "
I take it you don't accept the offer as investment, but just mindless altruism on the part of capitalism then Richard?
You must really have thought it through.
Your "we don't know if it will be paid back" indicates that you seem to believe that 'we' have something to gain or lose in all this, or are you just rallying round the flag?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:20 PM

Investment my arse. It's PLU (people like us) sticking together. Take the money from the poor and subsidise the rich. Osborne and his other aristocratic bumboys take the money from our poor and lend it to your government to give to their aristocratic bumboys - in the vague hope that they will give it back to our aristocratic bumboys. I have nothing against homosexuality as such but in public schools those in charge rape their servants, and mostly the servants are grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 02:47 AM

"Take the money from the poor and subsidise the rich."
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Richard, but that's the way it has always been. Taking money from the poor to subsidise the rich is what capitalism does - world investment through loans and foreign aid is just a tool in the system's toolbag.
That is a different debate altogether.
Some time ago you accused Akenaton of racism, yet your attutude to the Irish, not just on this thread, but elsewhere, smacks of that same racism.
Are you suggesting that Britain should give no foreign aid, or make no loans to any country? So far as I recall, it is just the Irish you have selected for your 'special rendition'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:22 AM

Jim, you seem to believe that if you label someone, you do not have to counter their arguments.
Richard is no racist, but if he was you should still attack his arguments, not call him names.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM

Keith;
Richard's attitude to the Irish is long standing and well noted on this forum.
Please mind your own ******* business and allow him to speak for himself; he's far more capable of doing so than you are.
Go on a sectarian march or something
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:09 AM

I do not have to mind my own business Jim.
We can all express opinions here.
I actually do regard it as my business because in previous debates you have labelled me racist and far right as an excuse not to answer my arguments.
You have even lied, saying I downloaded something which was in fact my own, in order to discredit me.
You did not say you thought I had downloaded, you said you had actually found, and easily found, the almost verbatim source.
A lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:48 AM

Keep it coming, Richard III is showing his true colours in no uncertain style now!

"Bumboy." What a wonderful term of endearment. Even managed the wonderful "I have nothing against homosexuality" rider that repugnant homophobes always tag onto their ludicrous comments.

And then to say how much he admires Redwood (!)

See? You can take the solicitor out of his padded leather chair but you can't etc etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:48 AM

I just heard that Steve Jobs will bale the country out and rebrand it as iLand.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:05 AM

Ironic, at one moment in history England causes the potato famine in Ireland, then incarcerate innocent people later and now they want to subsidise Ireland, hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM

What's in it for a capitalist country like UK? (not just England!)

Will 'we' demand the Irish banks etc etc if Ireland defaults. Re-unification by economics!

Bernard Ingrams , Mrs Thatcher's Press Secretary, used to extol the benfits of 'A good dose of colonial administration ' for failed states.


I remember that old Fenian song 'Whack fol the diddle' my Dad used to sing

'When we were savage , rough and wild, whack etc
She came as a mother comes to her child, whack etc


The Tories still support the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith a of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:39 AM

You are so wrong.
No one here, not even the Tories, want any part of Ireland in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

"The Tories still support the Union."
Don't you mean the Conservative and Unionist Party Sam - of course they still support themselves.
"I do not have to mind my own business Jim."
My point was addressed to Richard - nobody else. I have a great deal in common with him politically; his Achilles heel apparently being his views on Ireland (rather similar to those expressed by Keith in the past when he wished that they'd/we'd all go home).
I have expressed my views on Richard's attitude to Ireland and repeat my question to him; are you suggesting that Britain should give no foreign aid, or make no loans to any country, or just Ireland? An answer to this should clear up Richard's stance one way or the other.
Just in case it hasn't made the news elsewhere; it's just been announced on the news here in Ireland that The Green Party are intending to pull out of the coalition and are calling for a general election.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

Jim, thanks for that info they[the greens] are finished as is fianna fail. but they have left their mess to be cleared up by others who will be handicapped by a staight jacket imposed by the IMF.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

Why should the UK taxpayer have to cough up billions (magicked from where?) to save another EU country, who got their referendum and agreed to the integration? We never got a referendum - our government is implementing an austerity package, cutting back on billions, thanks to Labour's profligacy, and we shall have to suffer enormously because of this, without the Irish burden on top.

For the life of me I don't understand why half of you even bother replying to Carroll. It's hard to understand what he is saying while his trousers are still up.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 04:37 PM

Jim you have just repeated that disgusting lie about me.
"(rather similar to those expressed by Keith in the past when he wished that they'd/we'd all go home)."

Here again is your post I was replying to.
thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932799
"...the six counties were decided on and their annexation was carried through...... to decide whether the annexation was valid or not....You are still arguing for the status quo, "

We were discussing NI within UK NOT Irish people in Britain.

So when I replied next post
"Arguing for the staus quo?
Wrong again.
Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you."
I was referring to NI as part of the UK, not the diaspora.

To pretend to believe otherwise and persuade others to believe it is just wilfull lying in the hope of discrediting someone who disagrees with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:11 PM

If Ireland could think outside the box like the too big to fail American banks, Ireland would take the bail out money and use it to acquire Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:17 AM

The Tories dropped the Unionist part of their name years ago.
They only acquired it by merging with the Liberal And Unionist party in 1912.
The Tories policy on the Union in recent decades has been to oppose devolution in Scotland and Wales, but to support it in NI.
No one in Britain wants any part of Ireland in the Union, apart from a few headbangers in the West of Scotland.
Britain has a generous foreign aid budget, but that is fully taken up.
This loan is not foreign aid.
We are heavily in debt ourselves and have to borrow the money to lend to Ireland, increasing our own debt.
Our leaders tell us it is in our interest.
We must hope they are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

I had a thought which may seem a bit daft but bear with me. If the Irish state were a business it would be insolvent now and would probably have been placed in receivership or administration.

The Irish political system and structures appear to have been completely discredited, not least in the eyes of the people of Ireland. It seems the sensible thing would be to let the EU sort out the mess without the IMF by having the EU take direct control of the running of the country in return for helping restructure the finances of the state.

This would involve a number of measures: bringing Irish corporation tax into line with other European countries (and ensuring those taxes were collected and enough people were employed to do the job), stopping the tax breaks that rich foreign celebrities get simply by buying property in Ireland, and nationalising the Irish banks and bringing them under the direct control of the European Central Bank. That's just for starters.

A lot of people would say this would be 'undemocratic' and a 'surrender of Irish sovereignty' but at the moment there is no Irish sovereignty. This sort of scheme would need to have a fixed time limit - maybe 5 or 6 years. Any longer and you remove the urgency of restructuring the State.

This could also give Irish voters a chance to re-align themselves politically - if you take power away from Fianna Fail and Fine Gael they'll have to earn it back when the time comes (as would the Irish Labour Party, the Greens and Sinn Fein). The alternative would be for Irish sovereignty to continue to ebb away uncontrollably to the IMF, the ECB and the City of London.

It would obviously be a big step and everyone would probably hate it - mind you, at least that would create some kind of concensus and create the space for a real debate on what sort of society Ireland wants to be in the future. Much of the positive development in Ireland during the 90s was funded by Europe anyway as part of the European social democratic tradition of Keynesian social investment. It was only when Irish politicians and capitalists decided they had an opportunity to behave like US-style robber barons that it all started to go to hell in a handbasket.

It's clear that Westminster-style 'Democracy' has failed in Ireland. The state and economy needs fixing and there doesn't seem to be any political party or faction in Ireland with any idea how to handle the present mess. What's been good in Irish development since the 80s has come from the European social democratic tradition. What's bad has come from the American tradition of unfettered capitalism (as in the UK). Ireland needs to take a good, hard, unsentimental look at what has worked and what hasn't and choose accordingly - while it still has a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:57 AM

"The Tories dropped the Unionist part of their name years ago."
keith you continually try and mislead people with weasel words
so why in the last election did they have an electoral pact with unionists
The Ulster Unionist Party last night agreed to form an electoral pact with the Conservatives.

The deal will initially see the parties run on a joint ticket in Westminster and European elections in Northern Ireland.

Senior UUP officials backed the political alliance during a meeting of the party's executive in Belfast.

Representatives from both parties will now form a joint committee to work out an electoral strategy ahead of new year's European poll.

The parties have still to decide whether the partnership will extend to Assembly and local council elections in the region.

A UUP spokesman said: "The Executive Committee of the UUP has overwhelmingly endorsed the creation of a Conservative and Ulster Unionist Joint Committee to oversee and facilitate co-operation between both parties."

He said the joint committee would: "bring forward proposals on manifesto commitments and the branding of candidates, ensuring that the heritage and appeal of both parties are respected and that the popular appeal to the whole Northern Ireland electorate is maximised."

The committee will produce a report at the end of January.

The UUP spokesman said the arrangement would operate on the basis of consensus between the parties.

The Tories and UUP had been involved in detailed discussions since July when leaders David Cameron and Sir Reg Empey declared hopes of launching a new political movement in the region.

The 80-strong gathering of executive members voted in the favour of the deal, which re-establishes historic links between the parties.

The long-standing association was broken in 1985 when unionists objected to Margaret Thatcher's decision to sign the Anglo Irish Agreement, which gave the Republic of Ireland an advisory role in the governance of Northern Ireland.

The Conservative Party already organises in Northern Ireland, but has been unable to make any political breakthrough.

The UUP has, meanwhile, lost ground to the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) which has replaced it as the largest party in Northern Ireland.

Mr Cameron and Sir Reg hope a pact could extend Tory influence to a part of the UK where it is currently a minority voice, as well as allowing Northern Ireland voters to have a link to national politics.

The Conservatives have already said an alliance could see an Ulster Unionist handed a seat in any future Tory government.

When the two party leaders announced their hopes of building a new political movement, they formed a working group made up of Conservative and UUP members to discuss options.

At the time Mr Cameron said: "The Conservative Party stands in every part of the United Kingdom. We're the only party that does.

"In a lot of elections we have shrunk back to rather an English base... I'd like to see us establish a new political force in Northern Ireland that is both Conservative and Unionist, that can say to people, look, get beyond the old politics of constitution or orange or green.

"Let's actually have a national political party that can stand up for people on all of the issues they care about."

Ulster Unionists hope close co-operation with the Tories could help revive their fortunes.

Their desire to form an alliance with a bigger UK party is also a challenge to moves by nationalists and republicans to deliver Irish unity.

Sinn Fein already campaigns on an all-Ireland basis and has elected representatives on both sides of the Irish border.

The nationalist SDLP has also sought in recent years to form an alliance with one of the Irish Republic's larger parties, though hopes for a tie-in with the lead party of Government, Fianna Fail, have been interrupted by the economic crises dominating politics.

Last night's decision now paves the way for Mr Cameron to attend the UUP annual conference next month.

However, Democratic Unionist MP David Simpson said the UUP risked splitting the unionist vote if it contested all Westminster seats as part of the pact.

He said a DUP/UUP alliance could oust sitting nationalist and republican MPs in South Belfast and Fermanagh/South-Tyrone.

"The position of the Tory leader could not be more clear," said Mr Simpson.

"He has said that he wants to fight every single Westminster seat in Northern Ireland come the next Westminster election."

Mr Simpson added: "The choice for Sir Reg is very stark indeed. He can either go with Cameron and see four more years of nationalism ensconced in Fermanagh and South Tyrone and South Belfast or he can work with other unionists to see unionism increase its presence in Westminster."


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ulster-unionist-party-to-form-electoral-pact-with-tories-14071528.html#ixzz166ct00fG

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:27 AM

Keith - you said what you said, at least twice, and a lot more beside.
You described those who suggested that the only way to bring lasting peace was through a United Irelnd as "fascists".
You have strongly supported belligerantly militant sectarian marches as 'a bit of fun' and the violence they incurred as 'skirmishes' (this included your shamefully laying the blame for three nights rioting caused by this year's marches on children).
Anybody slightly interested in your redneck ideas are at liberty to access them on the relevant threads.
Scouser;
Not so daft; Ireland has benefited greatly from Europe; the quality of life here has visibly improved over the last twenty years - making the men in John Bull suits across the water look quaintly silly.
Not to say that I've stopped believing The European Union to be a tactic on the part of capitalism to gather its forces under one umbrella, but if we're stuck with it, let's use it for the general good.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:54 AM

Jim- I said what I said once, and it was about Britain not wanting Ireland in the Union.
I described as "fascist" anyone who thought the North should be forced into a United Ireland against the will of the people.
"Bit of fun" is a false quote. I never said it.
I do not and have never supported " belligerantly militant sectarian marches "
I argued that as the marches are overwhelmingly trouble free it is illiberal to seek to ban them.
I say you lie about me.
You can give no link to support any of those lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:10 AM

Some links to my posts about my opinion of Irelnd and the Irish.
6th June 06
I love Ireland and all things Irish.
28th July 06
As I have said before, I love Ireland and all things Irish.
(except paramilitary violence)
18th August 2010
My daughter in law is Irish Catholic, my nephew's wife is Irish Protestant.
Some on both sides would not regard the latter as Irish. Referring to that does not make me a stupid little man, though I am not very tall.

What I said about the Irish is indeed on record.
I have said I love Ireland and all things Irish.
I have said I have yet to meet an Irish person I have not liked.
But I have also said I would like all parts out of UK.
I thought that you wanted that too Jim.

You say again that I support the parades.
Not true. They are of no consequence to me.
I just asked what you were all raging about.
Where was the harm?
All you can say is they are "provocative".

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

18th August 2010
I have loved Ireland since I walked and camped in the Wicklows aged 15 in 1965.
I have returned many, many times North and South.
I may have been fortunate, but I have yet to meet an Irish person I have not liked and got on with.
One of my boys married a Catholic Irish girl and they have just presented me with my first grandson.
A nephew is married to a protestant Irish girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

Keith
"...against the will of the people."
Ireland was partitioned in 1922 at the point of the gun, against the wishes of the vast majority of the Irish people. The partitioning was intended to be temporary and a Civil War was fought in the 26 counties on the issue, the Pro-Treaty section arguing that its temporary nature meant that Ireland would eventually be re-united. The 'temporary' State will shortly be celebrating its 90th aniversery.
The border was drawn deliberately on sectarian lines, giving a two thirds majority to one section of the population of the new six county state on a sectarian basis; the voting system was altered to give that majority sole charge of running the state, in essence, disinfranchising the minority third - far nearer 'fascism' than anything I've ever suggested.
GSS has provided enough examples of the Conservative Party's continued collusion in all this right up to the present day.
The intervening period since partition has been filled with unrest, violence and death both in Ireland and on mainland Britain; this being constantly fuelled by the same aggressively sectarian marches you have persistantly supported (see 'Have a Glorious 12th July' thread) - as I said, never put in writing anything you might want to disassociated yourself from at a later date.
In the light of all this, your professed love of Ireland rings about as true as the "Some of my best friends are black, or Jewish, or Asian" that I have been listening to all my life.
The relevance to this particular thread is that, following the troubles in the 60s, 70s and 80s, the warring parties were all but bombed to the conference table where some progress was made towards power sharing, if not re-unification. In the light of recent events, all that now stands to be lost as, inevitably, recession always leads to different sections of the population grouping with 'their own kind' in defence of their jobs and way of life - I saw it often enough on the docks in Liverpool, with firms only employing Protestants or Catholics during lean times.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:55 AM

Let us discuss all that historical stuff Jim, but not in this thread obviously.
For now, I have given plenty of links, with more in store, that give the lie to your smearing me as a redkneck and racist.
Can you put up one post of mine to support your smears?
No, because it is all lies.
You lie to prop up your empty arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM

In case anybody is still interested in the topic of this thread, it was reported on BBC Breakfast News today that Mainland Britain has a trade surplus situation, vis-a-vis Eire, of approximately £7 billion per annum, so, far from taking money from our poor to subsidise the Irish economy, it would appear that we are returning this year's profits as a loan, in order to protect the profits of future years, in the full expectation that this will also enable the repayment of the loan in due course.

Seems a reasonable bargain to me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 02:20 PM

"Can you put up one post of mine to support your smears?"
I've put up the title of a whole thread where you persistantly supported sectarian marches and wrote off the Belfast riots as skirmishes or naughty children - I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm so spoilt for choice - it can be accessed by anybody interested though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 02:22 PM

Cross posted - thanks for that Don.
Sorry about thread drift - it stops here as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

Keith, if you'd like to post to this thread, please log in. And please refrain from calling people liars.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

What are we to call liars then?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:56 PM

Please refrain from calling people liars.
What are we to call liars then?

People. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Jim, you put up the title of the marches thread.
I argued that as Sinn fein stated that they were overwhelmingly trouble free, and as local people, the priest and the local Sinn Fein rep said that the Belfast trouble was organised by RIRA and caused by kids and outsiders, that they might be allowed to continue.
Redneck Jim?
Racist Jim?
If you can find a post of mine in that thread or anywhere else to justify that, put it up and I am gone for good.
But you can not.
There are no such posts.
You tell untruths about me. (Is that OK Joe? And is it OK for Jim to call me redneck racist?)
Joe, he said he found "almost verbatim" on line something I posted as mine.
He did not and could not produce it though.
Would that be a lie perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM

Very simple, Keith. Point to (or quote) the statement in question, and then refute it. Address the statement, not the person.

And no, it's not right for anyone to call you a "redneck racist" or any other insulting name. I don't see either in this thread, although he did characterize your ideas as "redneck." If you have a complaint, tell me the name of the thread, the name of the poster, and the date and time of the post.
Thank you.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:41 AM

I don't see what any of this has got to do with Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:10 AM

Sorry Chris, but I could not let this smearing just pass.

Bloody Sunday thread. 12thJuly 2010, 2.13AM Jim
"I had very little problem in finding the net article that you cut-and-pasted your 'analysis' (almost verbatim) from - doesn't count as an original thought I'm afraid."

I refute that (again).
It is a lie.

This thread 19th Nov. 9.54 AM Jim claims I wanted Irish people to go back to Ireland.
I refute that.
I posted the actual post and Jim's it was replying to.
It is a lie.

This thread 22nd Nov. 2.47 AM Jim says Richard's posts "smacks of racism" and at 1.25 PM Jim repeated the "Irish go home" lie and likened my posts to Richard's racist posts.

I refute that any post of mine smacked of anti Irish racism, and ask for the best example to be produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:02 AM

This has gone too far, once again; it should have been left where it started way on the three Irish threads where Keith and I clashed on the Irish question in the past.
As far as my disputes with him are concerned - it finishes here, but that does not mean I will no longer involve myself with topics on Ireland; just that I will leave Keith to his own ideas and ask that he leaves me to mine - it would help if he did not address his postings directly at me.
I apologise to all and hope that our arguing has not naused up yet another thread - it really will not happen again as far as I'm concerned - on this, or any other question.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:10 AM

So no withdrawing or even acknowledging that months old lie.
No examples to justify describing my views as racist or redneck.
Just terms you find it OK to smear with but never feel any need to justify.
Despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: mikesamwild
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:34 AM

If Gerry Adams does want to stand as a Sinn Fein candidate in the South has a Marxist based party a good chance of ultimately unifying Ireland ( as James Connolly envisaged?)The rest are discredited.

Without a church link could Ireland become truly non-sectarian, and people with a common class interest be brought together?

We live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:56 PM

There are rumblings against both Labour and the Greens over their past associations with FF and FG, and recently The Labour Party scored a massive own goal by giving their support to the 'killing for pleasure' (hunting) mob, which made us hesitate before joining the party.
SF seems to be gathering suppport by default from the disillusionment that has now set in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

This is the sort of situation that would normally be expected to lead to a military coup if the van was only working properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 02:07 PM

"This is the sort of situation that would normally be expected to lead to a military coup"
Don't speak too soon; we haven't had the election yet, and there's no knowing how FF will react if/when they don't win.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWQ6LXhKmaE&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:05 AM

There's a feature on the BBC Radio 4 'Woman's Hour' programme about Irish emigration at the moment. If you can't listen now you can probably get it on the BBC Iplayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

It's just been announced that Sinn Fein has almost certainly won the Donegal by-election - shape of things to come??.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:15 AM

Protests planned for Dublin city centre today, the Garda Síochána lead the way when it comes to dealing effectively with public disorder, hope our police force watch and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 03:23 AM

"....hope our police force watch and learn."
They don't need to Richie; they took their lessons from Maggie during the miner's strike; she in turn took her inspiration from her buddy, (and your's, no doubt) General Pinochet. Wonder if they've penciled in Wembly Stadium for future bookings!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 04:37 AM

No idea about Wembly Stadium, are you sure it's not Croke Park ? that anniversary was held last weekend the 21st.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:50 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM

You must be worried Jim.
The views I expressed about parades in the "12th" thread, that you were so contemptuous and angry about, were the same views as expressed by Sinn Fein.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 03:07 AM

I had thought that British people had matured and were no longer the bigots that shamed their country in the face of the world. In some cases, it appears, I was very wrong.

This cluster... is nothing to do with Ireland or with Britain. It's about wealthy, greedy people making more money at the expense of anyone they can cheat and rob.

Europe is trying to plug the hole in the European economy deliberately engineered by (I would suspect an orchestrated group of) people who gamble on the bond markets. The Irish people will be enslaved for generations to pay back the money that is being funneled through our economy.

Unfortunately, Ireland is Britain's largest trading partner - we buy more British goods than any other country.

If Britain succeeds in having Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate ended, the multinationals that are sited here will leave. That tax rate compensates for the fact that we're an island, and so would be more expensive as a site for these multinationals than other European countries, because of transport costs.

If the 12.5% goes, and the multinationals go, so will the ability of Irish people to buy British goods, with a disastrous effect on the British economy.

Be careful what you wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

""In case anybody is still interested in the topic of this thread, it was reported on BBC Breakfast News today that Mainland Britain has a trade surplus situation, vis-a-vis Eire, of approximately £7 billion per annum, so, far from taking money from our poor to subsidise the Irish economy, it would appear that we are returning this year's profits as a loan, in order to protect the profits of future years, in the full expectation that this will also enable the repayment of the loan in due course.

Seems a reasonable bargain to me.

Don T.""

As I pointed out some time ago, while others were busty slagging each other off in the wrong thread for that activity.

This morning Alan Johnson (New Labour) declared, in a TV interview, that the coalition government were right in making the loan to the Irish (our fourth largest trading partner), and had all party backing for that action.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 01:58 AM

Before that post of yours Don, I said something like, "Our leaders tell us the loan is in our interest. We must hope they are right."
We do have a trade surplus with Ireland.(Not the same as profit BTW)
It would be a disaster for us if Ireland went down.
If we lend the money and they still go down, or default, it would be catastrophic for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 03:34 AM

Many of the companies that have their corporate headquarters in Ireland employ very few people in the country. They just use the country as a tax shelter and then funnel their remaining profits through other tax shelters like Bermuda or the Cayman Islands (both British overseas territories, by the way). So the effect of the corporation tax rate on Irish employment is overstated.

One of the main reasons why companies that are serious about doing business and producing things have set up in Ireland is because there is a young, well-educated, English-speaking workforce who work hard and play hard. That's not going to change overnight if corporations are compelled to pay more tax.

One of the reasons why such a workforce exists in Ireland is that before the bankers and developers and their accomplices in the government bankrupted the country, the EU supported huge investment in Irish education. That won't happen again as long as the State is 85 billion euro in debt, unless the tax structure is reformed to ensure that those who have profited most from the boom pay their share.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 06:58 AM

""We do have a trade surplus with Ireland.(Not the same as profit BTW)""

I know that Keith, but it does equate to our government getting a whole lot of extra taxes on the money our companies earn from selling in Ireland in excess of what it costs buying from Ireland.

And, BTW, yesterday I saw a breakdown of what we are actually spending.

Our total spend of £7 billion comes from two sources.

1. A European Union fund which we pay into as a matter of course, regardless of who gets help from it. That fund is supplying £4 billion.

2. A loan which our government has taken out, and is re-lending to Ireland. This £3 billion loan, is made at an interest rate of 5.8%, a rate consierably higher than we are paying to borrow it in the first place.

This is sounding less of a risk with each revelation, and although the loan is long term, the rate is probably better than we would get from leaving the money in the treasury.

I think it makes good business sense, but of course some people don't want this government to make good, or reasonable, decisions. It's too embarrassing after the complete dog's breakfast made by the last bunch.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 11:07 AM

Missed the last couple of days due to broadband failure here.
There were a reported 50,000 demonstraters on the streets of Dublin on Saturday (as the figure was a police estimate it was probably nearer 100,000).
It appears that the Irish are not prepared to bend over and be screwed by politicians and bankers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 10:42 AM

And a reasonably peaceful one, just enough to make their feelings known. Good on them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:43 AM

This arrived this morning

http://fintanotoole.ie/petition/

Jim Carroll