Have anti-war songs changed anything?

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:14 AM

I see no point to imagining a "series of terrorist attacks", and the political consequences of such a series.   If you put enough conditions on your scenario, you can always get the answer you want.   Sounds like stacking the deck to me.

And as I also noted, such a discussion emphatically belongs below the line.

Of course I'm far more interested in facts and in history than in speculation.    There are plenty of fundamental topics there.   Right now I'm reading a fascinating biography of Rommel--which deals with some of the issues we've been discussing.

The one which really grabs me is this paradox:   as the author puts it: "Rommel...represented soldierly virtue at its most talented and straightforward in the service of evil at its most vile."

He did eventually commit suicide--under pressure from that evil. But how he came to serve Hitler at all--not just willingly but enthusiastically-- is an amazing story. As is of course his gradual turning against Hitler.   I haven't made it past 1941 yet.

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: GUEST,Suzi Z
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:32 AM

This may not be the greatest...but taste is always subjective
Song by Ron Trueman-Border...

Folk Alley for the music
PRISONER OF WAR Key of D Capo 2nd
C G C F
There are no chains about our ankles. No shackles on our hands
C G/B Am Am/G F G
They say we're free to wander through these God forsaken lands
C G C F
Ah but freedom's just a word boys it does'nt mean that much anymore
C G/B Am Am/G F G C G
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war

They say the times are changing but time is standing still
In the ghettoes, in the killing fields the same blood's being spilled
And it flows down like a river and floods the jail-house floor
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war
C G C F
CHORUS; Everywhere I look now from sea to shining shore
C G/B Am Am/G F G C G
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war

They tell us they'll move mountains all in the name of peace
They say they'll strive to find a way to make all hatred cease
But their lies are only whispers lost beneath the cannon's roar
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war

The mother and the daughter, the father and the son
Each generation lives in fear of the soldier and the gun
It's the same the whole world over and shall be evermore
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war

CHORUS;

Pour down your bombs and missiles. Pour down you acid rain
We live under their shadow now and forever must remain
At the mercy of the tyrant, abiding by the mad man's laws
Everyman's a prisoner, a prisoner of war

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: TonyA
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:38 AM

quote: I see no point to imagining a "series of terrorist attacks", and the political consequences of such a series.   If you put enough conditions on your scenario, you can always get the answer you want.   Sounds like stacking the deck to me.

And that sounds to me like a begrudging way of saying yes, you do agree that demented leaders, under extreme conditions such as a series of terrorist attacks or having all the other world powers declare war on them, can get away with things that would be unthinkable otherwise.

That's the simple reality that Buchan's article is based on. The Holocaust, which after the fact has been given as the primary proof that it was necessary to go to war against Hitler, could never have happened without that war, his dementia notwithstanding. If the the Polish junta, under orders from the Allies, had given back the 95 percent German city of Danzig that was unfairly taken away after WWI, then Hitler would not have been able to marshal support for an invasion of Poland. And his actions and statements prior to that indicate he'd have had no interest in it.

But the Allies were obstinate about Danzig, because they wanted Hitler to invade Poland. They wanted it as a pretext for going to war against Germany -- not because they wanted to prevent the Holocaust, and I hope not because they particularly wanted to unleash conditions that would lead to it, but because they didn't give the flying obscenity that Michael mentioned earlier what happened to the Jews of central Europe and were willing to sacrifice any number of people of any ethnicity in order to consolidate power and maintain supremacy.

Hitler's use of military force to repatriate German areas held by neighboring countries was deplorable, but it was nothing out of the ordinary among powerful nations, and trivial compared to the various wars the UK and US have launched before and since that time to gain and keep control of territory all over the world. It could not have been the real motive for going to war against him. It was a pretext, just as the 9/11 attacks were used as a pretext for invading Iraq, and probably an engineered pretext, like Roosevelt's ultimatum to Japan and the attack on Pearl Harbor that was Japan's only possible response.

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: TonyA
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:44 AM

Suzi, I love your song.

But did you mean to post it at the Greatest Anti-War Song Ever thread? It would be a good addition to that thread, which will probably be a valuable resource for years to come.

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: billhudson
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:57 AM

If only one person's mind changes after listening to a good anti war song then maybe that is the best as it gets. I remember doing a gig and it as veteran's day. At the time I was discovering Wilfred Owen's poems. There was this Viet-Nam vet at the bar and asked him if ever heard of him. He recited word for word one of his poems. I think we save this world bit by bit, song by song.

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: sing4peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:47 PM

Suzi -

Thank you for posting that song. I'm glad you posted it to this thread as it quite germain. It was a great contribution to the overall conversation. I was so impressed with this song that I am going to learn it.

So here you have helped this song to change one more person. Each song I learn changes me. Isn't that why we all sing? To change the way people are thinking or feeling? Not necessary in a propagandistic way but in a literal way - we sing a funny song in hopes of making someone laugh - a love song to move a heart -

Nice also to visit that website. I can see it being very helpful.

---

Joyce

(who, BTW, has not forgotten about providing a linky re: references to Prescott Bush and friends being sanctioned by the U.S. Congress in 1942. It is not a controversial statement as it is a matter of public record and not conspiracy theory. However, even our town research librarian - who I gave this assignment to - has found that the congressional records are not as available online as they used to be and she is having a hard time getting back to pre 2000. Interesting. Not to worry, I will find it and, thanks to Azizi, I will do the blue clicky thing and ta dah! Here it shall be.

The main point of my previous post (September 18, 2009) was in pointing out that we need to broaden our scope when we are reviewing the "lessons" of World Wars I and II if we are ever going to understand the context of our times here in World War III (or is it IV?) Frankly, I thought Bush was being honest when he referred to it as "the never ending war".

"Show me who profits from the war and I'll show you how to stop the war." Henry Ford (who should have known, eh?)

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: sing4peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:38 PM

Tony A. -

BNP stands for British National Party. You can find out more here: thread.cfm?threadid=123139&messages=658

---
JK

Subject: RE: Have anti-war songs changed anything?
From: GUEST,Suzi Z
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

Thank you both Tony and Joyce..sorry about the delay in replying ..I read the poets of the first world war as a young teenager and was deeply affected ...so much so that I've been a pacifist ever since..music has had an even deeper effect ..so it can change how you feel