BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day

Subject: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM

This is a very important day for some of us -- the one day of the year there were no strings attached. Lent was cancelled.. nothing sorrowful liturgically etc. The happiest day of the year. Out of respect for the dear departed, I would like to ask that people respect the music, corny as you might find it, and the traditions of the Irish-Americans. Every year we go through the Plastic Paddy insults, and putdowns of people who want to sing Molly Malone and Danny Boy. No one is going to force you to listen to any of it or drink green beer. Just avoid us if you don't want to celebrate. I would not dream of telling a Vietnamese person how to celebrate Tet or an Italian about Columbus Day....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM

I have much respect for the Irish everwhere...even it the USA.   And, each year celebrate my 1/4 Irish ancestry...and yes, I like the music....and never drink green beer....for fear it may result in green after-beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:04 PM

And I have even found myself singing Danny Boy on occasion. Happy Patrick's Day, you-all!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM

I have no *known* Irish ancestors, but one branch of my family has been in America since the 17th century, and it is hard to believe that no Irishman or -woman appeared anywhere in twelve generations of marriages & bastardies. So I will take care, as usual, to wear something green.

There is some point, however, to Ogden Nash's line:
"And I think that of St. Patrick's Day, St. Patrick never heard.'

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:54 PM

As an Irish-American (at least in part), I reserve the right to make fun of people who go overboard in their celebration of St. Patrick's Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Nuair a bhíos an braon istigh bíonn an chiall amuigh.
When the drop is inside the sense is outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:31 PM

And I shall don something orange in memory of my dad who had no use for the "Holy Pappy in Rome" (what he called him.)It's the one holiday he and I always made a big deal of...I was very enamoured with our possible ancestry; found out it was more likely Scots to N. Ireland then Nova Scotia, but we still celebrate it. I do wear a green shamrock. We always spoke on the phone no matter where he was and I still miss that phone call every year.

I have to confess I felt a bit of a snob tonight when PBS had a program on of the songs mentioned above. I have fond memories of singing them, but wish more people knew more of the really old Irish songs and tunes; they are so beautiful. We Americans are brash, though, and there is a place for both. Of course, my fav. for daddy to sing was "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen." Only thing is, I think I thought he meant it...he would take me to Ireland one day.:-) Oh, and he HAD to play Irish Washerwoman on his fiddle so I could dance!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: open mike
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM

I will be celebrating Ireland by playing 2 hours of Irish and Celtic music on my radio show on March 13. I have a gig that night, also, which will be filled with songs and tunes from the Emerald Isle. St. Patrick's month, i say..why restrict your celebrations to one day??!!

why such a negative and defensive attitude, mg,
if you want a joyful day, start by being joyful!!

the Irish were on this continent before columbus -- St. Brendan
made it across the atlantic in ox-hide boats. This would have
occurred sometime between 512-530 AD..we should celebrate
Saint Brendan's feast day on May 16, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:00 AM

The Irish tradition of an immram (a sea-voyage in which a hero, with a few companions, often monks, wanders from island to island, meets other-world wonders, and finally returns home) was a popular form of literature in the seventh and eighth centuries

Was the Isle of the Blessed described in the Navigatio actually America?

The British explorer, historian and writer Tim Severin crossed the Atlantic in a replica of a 6th century leather open curragh landing in Newfoundland in June 1977

The success of this expedition opened the door to all the new theories of the discovery of the New World by St Brendan a long time before Christopher Columbus.

The ground-breaking Brendan Voyage Suite for uilleann pipes and orchestra was composed by Shaun Davey in 1980

excerpt from Shaun Davey's 'The Brendan Voyage' with soloist Liam O'Flynn

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:42 AM

Corned Beef and Cabbage with boiled potatoes, Guinness, Irish Soda Bread. And Seamus Kennedy. That works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM

http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/2Kitch/aCBeefCabge.html

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:07 AM

Bacon and cabbage with champ and parsley sauce .... roll on the 17th mmmmmmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:19 AM

Kat raises an interesting question: are Orangers out of line if they celebrate Ireland by wearing orange?

Up a long ladder, down a short rope
Here's to King Billy, to hell wit' the Pope...

How about singing numbers like "The Old Orange Flute"? "Croppies, Lie Down"?   P.C.?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

aye frae SCOTLAND AND AUSTRALIA HAPPY ST PATRICK'S DAY EVERYONE

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,tealeaf
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:06 AM

Anyone know where the orange order comes from.Happy St. Patrick's Day

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM

Respect has to be earned, not demanded.

However, St Paddys day is a bit of fun, no more, no less.

Typical Irish idea, celebrating a Welsh bloke who noticed there were no snakes in Ireland so pretended he drove them out.

Enjoy.

me? I will be in France, skiing, but a couple of years ago was in Boston. Not on purpose, just happened to be there, and joined in all the fun. Having lived in Dublin and been dragged into playing in bars during the festivities, I reckon the American Irish do it well. There is no sense of irony, just honest in your face fun.

As I just said.

Enjoy

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:32 AM

Parades in full regalia form a large part of Orange culture.
I remember witnessing the large triumphalist, anti-Catholic and anti-nationalist parades leading up to the celebrations on the Twelfth of July as a young woman in Liverpool.

Nowadays they are not quite so 'edgy'

Loyalist Liverpool 2008

Orange lodges have turned down invitation to join St Patricks day parades in a number of towns in the north of Ireland as it was
'unclear as to whether or not they could carry their usual flags, banners and standards and wear their regalia' and
'It would be demeaning to impose a condition that they could not do so'

However the Order does celebrate St. Patrick's Day in a number of locations across Northern Ireland.
These events focus on St. Patrick's role as a major figure in the spread of Christianity.

A delegation from the Order spent a four day trip in New York, in June last year to promote 'the cultural aspects of the Twelfth and make it one of the major tourist attractions in Northern Ireland.
We believe there is massive potential in the United States to encourage people to visit Northern Ireland around the time of the Twelfth.'

One blessing - I bet there's no green beer :)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM

Not everyone understands ~ not even most of the participants ~ that St. Patrick's celebrations in the US are (quite properly) celebrations of Irish-American culture and experience, and only secondarily concerned with memories of the Auld Sod itself.

Seen in that light, numbers such as "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" and "McNamara's Band" ~ not to mention the ubiquitous "Danny Boy" ~ are absolutely appropiate to the tradition in question, regardless of their historic connection to Ireland, or lack thereof. Songs whose origin is in Hollywood, California, (rather than the Hollywood up there in Ulster) should NOT be regarded as candidates for automatic exclusion.

Of course, performers who can present a truer image of the "real" Ireland, who have learned and can demonstrate genuine Irish traditional music and dance, will almost always be welcome. But not if they look down their noses at us ignorant Mick Yanks naively enjoying our own culture!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

You said it better than me. You can not sneer at the traditions without somehow sneering at those the traditions, however broken and newly pieced together in a new land, without sneering at those who held on to what they could and created something new...and that would include the supposed Irishman buried under every railroad tie and those who worked themselves to death at an early age and those laid low by various fevers and who died in childbirth. There is so little left, at least out here in western US, and to see it not die a natural death, but to be kicked to death by people who think they know more than us ..well, it gets my Irish up...and my ancestors probably aspired to be shanty Irish..they were proably several steps below. I won't insult other people's ancestors, no matter how humble, and I don't want people insulting mine. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

The chances are, though, mg, that some of the actions you take as insults are performed by people who have no idea who your ancestors--not to mention their own--even were!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:14 PM

I know. That is why I feel it is my bounden duty to tell them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

As a descendant on all sides of Highland Scots I have to go back many hundreds of years to find my Irish roots but we are cut from the same cloth! All the best to my Gaelic cousins in and from the Emerald Isle! I have already sung "Wearing Of The Green" at several recent concerts and jams and I will do so again at a few more in the next week. Slainte Mhath!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:51 PM

I'm told that it was St. Patrick's brother who drove the snakes out of Alaska. Talented family.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM

Would that be Saint Mal O'Mute? :->

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: open mike
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM

in Boston, they are Seltics, but elsewhere the pronunciation is Keltic.

the Celts ranged far and wide...there is cultural history in France in
Brittany/Bretagne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany
http://www.bretagne-celtic.com/an/accueil_an.htm
and Astoria, by Spain, Andorra and Portugal of their presence there...
http://www.llandecubel.com/

not just in Ireland....

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:37 PM

It was O'Mute indeed! How did you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM

The Saint Bernard told me! I understand they ran together at one point in their youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:45 AM

EMMA! Can I have your recipe for champ and parsley sauce, please?

Here in the US I have been trying in vain to find that cut called Irish Bacon. They butcher `em differently here... Canadian bacon is closest but it only has the lean part, without that little tail of fatty bacon. Does anyone have a source for authentic Irish Bacon?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM

"in Boston, they are Seltics, but elsewhere the pronunciation is Keltic"

In a sporting sense at least the word is pronounced 'seltic' in Scotland also in the form of the football team 'Glasgow Celtic"

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM

Several years ago, National Public Radio had a long piece about how the Boston Celtics basketball team was going to change the pronunciation of their name to "keltic" because the "seltic" pronunciation was deemed to be insulting and politically incorrect. There were interviews from angry Boston fans about the scourge of political correctness, and serious assessments by professorial types.

The date of the interview: April 1.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM

Don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask, if not please accept my apologies, the question was revived in my mind by the mention that it is largely Irish-American culture that is celebrated.

How long after leaving the country do emigrant families go on seeing themselves as Irish, or Irish-American, rather than just identifying with their new abode? To this outsider it appears to go on for multiple generations.

My maternal grandmother was either half- or a quarter- Irish (I would have to check to be certain) but Irishness was never a feature of my upbringing, though my mother and her sisters did a bit of step-dance as children. I think of myself as English, but by the standards of the Irish-Americans would I be Irish-English?

I have visited Ireland a number of times (going again in a few weeks, yahoo) but despite liking the place and its people I have never felt the need to claim to belong, it is curiosity that makes me ask.

Anyway, good luck in a week's time, I hope all the celebrations go well, whatever form they take.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:14 AM

In Ireland the term "bacon" is used to mean any joint of pork except the leg, which is ham.

It's possible to get into endless arguments about which cut of pork / bacon is best for boiling, but many prefer the "collar of bacon", which is the equivalent of a cut from the North American "shoulder butt" or "picnic shoulder".

If it's difficult to buy a bacon joint where you are there's a useful page on wet curing at home
Guidelines For Brining Pork

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

Q. What did St Patrick say as he drove the snakes out of Ireland?

A. Turning round from the drivers seat he said 'Are you OK in the back there, lads?'

Have a good one.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,tealeaf
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM

"When the Irish say that St. Patrick chased the snakes out of Ireland, what snakes did he chase out? and where did they end up .

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:35 AM

Well,there were the Viperse,for a start.Their leaving was,of course,a diaspora. The Bogsidewinders were driven from Ulster,and the Cobhras from further south.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

Patrick didn't drive out the snakes, the glaciers did. We can safely assume the snakes of yore were the same as in nearby parts of the Europe today.

David, I enjoyed your joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

...where did they end up?

back in Eden?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM

"How long after leaving the country do emigrant families go on seeing themselves as Irish, or Irish-American, rather than just identifying with their new abode? To this outsider it appears to go on for multiple generations."

I think a significant factor is how "isolated" (or, to phrase it differently, how strong and self-sufficient) an immigrant community one joins upon arrival in the new country. That, in turn, will influence the degree to which members intermarry/interbreed with folks of other origins.

The late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was of 100% Irish ancestry, or ethnicity, or whatever you wanna call it, despite his family being so well-established in the US for so many generations. All sixteen of his great-great-grandparents were born in Ireland and had resettled in the Boston area by the time they had children!

Now, that's not just a statistically unlikely family history, it's evidence of an astoundingly tight community; one should easily understand that all its members, throughout all those generations, would consider themselves "Irish-American" (if not simply "Irish") to a much greater extent than someone whose four grandparents might include, say, one born in Ireland, one born in the US of Irish parents, one Italian American, and one US citizen whose family had been on this side of the ocean for so many generations that he doesn't even know how many nationalities are represented in his DNA.

Descendants of the downtrodden Catholic workers and peasants who fled to America tended to stay together in fairly homogeneoius US neighborhoods, and to look to the Church as protector and a focal point for community. Ulster Protestants and the more affluent Anglo-Irish would be much more likely to become assimilated into mainstream US culture, and have their children and grandchildren lose consiousness of any Irish identity relatively quickly.

I remember hearing on the Today Show one St. Patrick's Day morning several years ago that many more current-day Americans of Irish descent are Protestant than Catholic; that's certainly NOT who you see out celebrating, and identifying strongly as Irish, on March 17. I think part of the explanation is that large numbers of Ulster folk came across the ocean a century or more earlier than the famine-driven exodus of the Catholic/Gaelic population of the Irish West, and therefore had several more generations of breeding to get a "head start" on producing descendants in greater numbers. More obviously, identification with the old country is going to be much weaker for those who have to look back a couple of centuries rather than a couple of generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM

I think it's when they intermarry. My grandparents were identified as Irish, French, and German (although we suspect other elements were also present). My parents were half-half, and my generation of the family was quartered. My parents didn't claim any ethnic identity, but would say they were half and half. My children have very little idea of their ethnic heritage, and claim to be "Californian" (although my firstborn was born in Berlin).

Now, my wife was the product of Polish-American parents and Polish-born grandparents - she she claims she's Polish.

On St. Patrick's Day, I'm Irish - even though only one Grandmother was actually Irish. Most of the rest of the time, I claim to be German.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

where did they end up?
Boston?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

I don't think that "driving out the snakes" was meant to be taken
literally. Wikipedia suggests that the snakes were:
"serpent symbolism of the Druids of that time and place, as shown for instance on coins minted in Gaul."

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM

Good points, PoppaGator. I would just add that some of the Ulster Protestants were also Scottish, as noted above...I am sure there was some mixing there, though.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

I think you can expect acceptance for having an official day of cheesy daftness (same as Christians have to accept people enjoying toy-bunnies-and-chocolate-easter-eggs day, and unwrap-your-pressies-then-eat-loads-of-grub day) but umm expecting "respect" for leprechauns-and-green-beer-day is equally daft as what goes down IMO!

Enjoy what you do, but do eat PORK like decent self-respecting Irish-Americans! Tsk tsk! And don't forget the fried potato bread either for your morning's coronary (my Mum would have this topped with fried egg sausage and bacon all fried in lard..)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM

So you would see it as a question of what might be called dilution, or the lack of it?

To achieve several generations without any intake of 'outsider' blood suggests that there must be a big community to start with and a ghetto-like separation from other groups. Given such conditions it is less surprising that succeeding generations should still identify with their place of origin

In the past I have generally viewed the States as the proverbial melting pot, but I am beginning to see it more as a number of quite distinct cultural/national/religious groups living alongside each other, with just a bit of blurring at the edges. Is that how others see or experience it?

Regarding the future, will more blurring eventually wipe out the separate groups, and if so about how many generations would you expect it to take?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:41 PM

I think it depends on what part of the country you are talking about. Back East where there are more big cities and the distances between are less than those out West, I saw more of the clustering BUT didn't feel any prejudice toward me or others not of that particular group.

Out West, people had to rely on one another much more; the distances were much greater and goods only available in the towns and few cities. To be sure, there were still enclaves and there were places designated by their ethnic/cultural identity; some have become designated historical neighbourhoods.

For an idea of how prejudice could perpetuate in a very rural area, even in the 20th century, I would recommend a movie we just watched called "Sweet Land." Despite the portrayal of a closed, small-minded community, it also uplifts when people open their hearts.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM

I think it is more than dilution but sometimes prejudice...my mother used to call us Shanty Irish and she meant it..she was not Irish and did not frankly respect them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM

Joe... "On St. Patrick's Day, I'm Irish - even though only one Grandmother was actually Irish."

On St. Pat's, we're all Irish. Even if yer not, yer still welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM

Kat: the folks living on either side of the (very narrow) water separating the northeastern corner of Ireland from the west coast of Scotland have always been fairly closely related. The religious/national divisions of 16th century introduced a degree of animosity between Catholic Irish and Presbyterian Scots that probably didn't exist before. And for a while the "nonconformist" Presbyterians were only slightly less persecuted by the Anglican establishment than were the Papists.

In any event, Cromwell forced the Catholic natives of Ulster off their highly desireable farmlands, banished them to the relatively barren rocky west, and forcibly repopulated the area ("plantation") with Scottish peasants/farmers from just across the water, thereby "planting" a more cooperative population, forefathers of the future Orangemen and Loyalists.

Not long afterwards, within a generation or two, the offspring/descendants of these same people made another move across the ocean to serve a similar purpose in populating the British Colonies of America (most going to the southern colonies, many as indentured servants). These were and are the "Scotch-Irish" who comprise a huge part of the US population and have produced a large number of Presidents, from Andrew Jackson through Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:47 PM

Yep, thanks for putting it so well and succinctly, Poppa. Some of mine went to Nova Scotia, some wound up in NY on the St. Lawrence river, some in Virginia, and some made it to PA. The English part came from Barbados to the Carolinas. The Virginians were mostly "Scotch-Irish" as you say.

The only thing I had different in my mind was, I thought there were also clearances in Scotland, by Sutherland, the crofters were sent to live off the sea because their land was desirable, and some of them wound up going to Ulster, not to aid in settling, but to escape the horrible changes in their circumstances. Do I have events mixed up? My gggrandma was a Sutherland in NS.

BTW, thanks to Brendy's recommendation, I read an incredible book about the transport of Irish as slaves to Barbados. You've probably already have read it or know about it. Well worth an eye-opening read for those who haven't, imo: To Hell or Barbados: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland by Sean O'Callaghan.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Do you know if the Dingle area people were sent? I usually recognize a cluster of Dingle names, and it seems like they were among the names I have heard about being there..Cavanaugh for sure..does anyone know how Marcus Garvey got his Irish name? Could it have been from this? mg