Songs for white slaves?

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

Maggie Gordon? Peggy Gordon? I can't see that there's anything more sellable about the latter. But it seems to me, using the plosive consonant "P" instead of the nasal consonant"M", it just is better for singing out, and I'd assume thta's where the change comes in.

Anyway they are both versions of the same name, Margaret. He might well have called her both ways.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 12:03 PM

I saw the rerun last night too - thanks for the information about the song; do you know who was singing? Why do they never put that type of information on the credits? (winge winge)
I have been in The Algiers in Baltimore a number of times (en route to Cape Clear) but never knew the full history of the original abandoned village further up stream.
109 people were taken from Baltimore alone (all of whom reportedly/suprisingly survived the journey) so I suppose over a couple of centuries the estimated numbers are probably quite credible.There must be a song in there somewhere even if it hasn't been written yet - quite touching was the story of the slave who became the Sultans beloved wife and was buried next to him. One woman was 'sold back' for £1300, a small fortune in those days! as opposed to 'male christians' who (I quote!) could be exchanged for an onion!

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 05:54 PM

I guess I will not amaze the singaround with a song of Moorish abduction from a seaside village.

Unless you write one...

YY

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 10:37 PM

"Amazing Grace" written by ex-slave ship owner, after being himself captured....

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

Willie O, the numbers surprised me too. They were for white slaves, but perhaps they were taken from other shores besides these.
The programme was authoritative, with contributions from professors and historians from UK, Irish Rep., Morroco, and USA (Univ of Ohio).
When the figures were given, the camera was scanning documents and old papers.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:52 PM

Ard Mhacha is indulging in hyperbole when she claims that "...Van Diemen's land and other hell holes were worse than slavery for the poor unfortunates." As someone who both lives in Tasmania and has read Robert Hughes' excellent book 'The Fatal Shore' I can assure you that this is nonsense unless you were silly enough to buck the system and get yourself sent to Macquarie Harbour. We all know that people were trasported for absurdly trivial offences but it was only the real hard cases who ended up in places like the harbour and Norfolk Island, which was the worst hell-hole of all.Keep your nose clean and serve your time and you could end up not only free but prosperous in the new colony. Convicts also had some limited rights and were protected by law when they were sent out as labour to farms etc - Hughes shows convicingly that the well known cases of abuse were well-known precisely because they were uncommon. Comments like Mhaccha's are in danger of trivialising the absolute unrelieved horror of slavery.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 07:24 PM

Guest Ooh-Ah

Please recall that Ard Mhacha has a fixation that anything the Brits did was wrong, which is a pity, because if he could remove this fixation his comments are otherwise objective.

I have my copy of Hughes "The Fatal Shore" on my book case to hand as I write, I think your synopsis is a little oversymplified, and there where those who took a delight in the powers in petty vindictivnes, and prejudice.

But as an alterntive to the "Tyburn/Newgate Jig" transportation had its points.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 09:43 PM

It'll take a bit of time to dig up my reference, but The English crown issued slaving patents for Counties Kerry & Cork in Ireland, sometime in the middle 1500s. They were revoked after about 15-20 years, when the slavers (English) started taking members of the ascendancy of the day (Anglo/Norman-Irish). Slaving was a popular commercial venture there long before the English turned it into big business. When talking about St Patrick, you can never be really sure where to draw the line between fact and fiction, but most accounts consider that he first came to Ireland as a slave. And then, of course, Cromwell profited handsomely selling Irish folk in "the barbadoes." Without getting over-wrought about racial or ethnic injustice, it's probably more productive to consider slavery as an aspect of the corruption wrought by near absolute power.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 05:30 AM

Oh, ooah, [Did you walk on a rusty nail]. my humble apoligies to you and super Brit Gareth, how bloody stupid of me, and after there sojurn in Van Diemans Butlins, the felons of our land were grant R&R on Bondi Beach. Aye, and Cromwell was cashing in on the Irish long before the Britsh made their millions on the Blacks. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

Robert Hughes in his book The Fatal Shore, states, " The Irish [prisoners], on arriving in Australia were treated as as a special class.

As bearers of Jacobin contagion, as idealogically and physically dangerous traitors, they were opressed with special vigilance and unusually hard punisments.

They formed Australia`s first white minority. From the outset, the Irish in Australia saw themselves as a doubly colonised people".

A descripition of the type of punishment meted out to the Irish prisoners was described by Joseph Holt an Irish political prisoner, "They were tied to a tree and squeezed tightly to the trunk,
There were two floggers, Richard Rice and John Johnson [the hangman from Sydney], Rice was left-handed and Johnson right handed, so they stood at each side, and I never saw two threshers in a barn move their strokes more handier than those two man-killers did.

Maurice Fitzgerald the recipient of the two butchers handi-work stood up manfully as pieces of his flesh blew in my face as it flew of the cats".

Fitzgerald was being made an example of on the whim of a protestant clergyman Marsden who suspected, wrongly, that Fitzgerald along with other Irish prisoners was making Pikes in readiness for a revolt, an earlier version of the non-exsistence of WMD`s.

Hughes goes on decribe the opression and cruelty handed out to the Irish prisoners on Van Diemans land, this was nothing in comparsion to the native inhabitants who were wiped out by 1836, Eichmann could have taken lessons in genocide from the colonists. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:35 PM

Slight thread creep here. In Thomas Davis' poem "The Sack of Baltimore," referenced w-a-a-y up above, there are two references to "hookers" . These appear not to have quite the same meaning as "prostitute" - does it mean fishermen, or is there another more obscure meaning ?? It's a bit unclear from the context.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:07 PM

Hooker was-is a Galway fishing boat, the name derives from the hook and line method of fishing. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:56 PM

It must have been pretty rough being a slave in North Africa, or an Irish transportee to Australia - but nothing was as bad as the slave system in America.

Slaves in other times and places were often treated badly, even as badly, but they were not not seen as lower than human, which was the peculiar quality of that kind of chattel slavery which survived so long in America.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 04:49 PM

Hee are some beautiful hookers from Galway. But it's a common name for this kind of small boat in many places, and in most English-speaking countries I believe.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 12:54 AM

I rather expected an eventual re-surfacing of inherited resentments in a discussion of this kind, and will not join in with it on this occasion. I can, however, provide a tune for the Algier Slave's Releasement.

The tune, Awake, Oh My Cloris (or, Ah! Chloris Awake) appears in D'Urfey's Pills to Purge Melancholy (1719-20, IV 313); this seems to be the only surviving example, though it was named as tune for quite a few broadside ballads in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. It is the only one identified by Claude M. Simpson in The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music (1966; 2-4), though he does not absolutely guarantee its identity. Here is the tune as it appears in Pills:

X:1
T:Ah! Chloris Awake
B:Pills to Purge Melancholy, 1719-20, IV 313
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:3/4
K:Bb
d2|g2 g2 f2|d2 (cB) (AG)|^F2 G2 (A/B/c)|B4 AA|
g2 g2 f2|d2 B2 e2|c2 A2 (G=F)|G4 d2|
g2 g2 f2|f3 g (ag)|f2 d2 d2|d3 d cB|
f2 A2 A2|(Ac) (dc) (ed)|^F2 (ED) D2|D4 d2|
A3 B (A/B/c)|=B2 B2 f2|d2 (de) (fd)|e4 d2|
c2 (fg) (fd)|c3 B A2|(Bc) A3 G|G4|]

It would require some modification to fit the text given earlier; but nothing much beyond what is normally needed in such circumstances.

I fear that I shall have to forego the prize of a holiday in Baghdad for now. I have a nasty cold and my passport has expired.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:04 AM

Kevin M.
Rough but not as bad?
Would a young girl snatched from a tiny English hamlet, thrust into an utterly alien environment and valued only for her vagina agree with you?
Or the man, whose value was comparable to an onion, chained permanently to an oar until the day the lash could no longer animate him, and then disposed of. Had he been taken as a boy (highest value white slave) subjected to years of systematic buggery until he lost his boyish looks.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:32 AM

Slavery is a horrible thing wherever it happens. But all I have read indicates that the most de-humanising system of slavery ever was that associated with the North Atlantic Slave Trade.

I'd imagine that to find songs about the topic of this thread the best place to look would be North Africa, where the slaves mostly ended up - any Arabic or Berber folklorists among us?

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 01:55 PM

I taped that programme on the Arab Slavers and after another look, , I have to agree with Keith, this exsistence for the captives was hell on earth, the books I have read on this, leaves me to the conclusion that they fared worse than the black slaves. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:26 PM

Wot appauls me is the way PC history has put the question of "white on white" or "black on black" slavery into Orwell's memory hole.

I had the misfortune to attend a "Workshop", on Slavery, in Canterbury some years ago.

I suppose I should have walked out from the start. When we walked in we were invited to pick an identity. Your choice was an African Tribe Child being abducted by English Slavers fron Ghana, or "The Bight of Benin"

"Oh remember, remember the Bight of Benin,
One sails out, but 20 go in"

I was stuborn, and insisted that I was a Bristol Man, sentanced to life as a slave in Barbados by Judge Jeffries ( The BLoody Assizes).

It went down hill from there. This "Socialoagist" insisted that there was no such thing a whites enslaving whites - Ye Gods even Ard M will admit that.

No mention of the Cromwell enslavement resulting from his adventures in Ireland.

The deportations to Virginia, Barbados, or the Bahamas (SP, or OZ - Oh they never existed.

And of course there was no mention of the East African Slave trade, young Boys and Girls to Saudi Arabia.

The final straw came at lunch time "Oh No Alchol, as good muslems you will not touch it".

I will let the more intelligent catters work that stupidity out.

Errr ! If the only exterior contact we have is from Bristol and Liverpool Slavers, how come the Readers of the Book, are involved?

The Bight of Benin was historically well south of the Tetse Fly belt / boundary where the Hausa raiders from the north were stopped by thier horses/cammels dying beneath them.

I walked out, others walked out, including the only two attendees who were of Afro Origin, One borne in Barbados, the other borne in Somalia.

Like I said some months ago, in this thread earlier, I think this might upset the Politiclly Correct.

And for those of you who may wish to ponder:-

1/. What role did the "Kurbah" and the "Yoke" play ??? Do you know what they were ?

2/. What was the fate of a prisoner of war in the Bight, prior to the arrival of the Slave Trailers ?

Answers here please. A vitual pint to the first correct answer.

The slave trades were horific - but not confined to european villans.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM

Gareth, You are right, and regarding the Yoke, I thought it came from an egg, until I worked for Wimpey. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:53 AM

There's a book about the Irish sent to the Caribbean: MacInerny, Rev. M. H. (1909). Irish Slaves in the West Indies. Dublin: Sealy, Bryers & Walker.

Here's an interesting family-genealogy page with some stuff:

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2003/20030618jfc.htm

Of course, Irish people in earlier times had made lots of money from slavery; I understand that they used to trade Scandinavian slaves down to Rome at one stage, the main slave market being around where Mulligans is in Dublin now.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:56 AM

The difference between the American system, especially in the USA, and slavery elsewhere wasn't so much a matter of greater cruelty - I suspect wherever you go that was much the same, ranging from horrific to relatively humane (after all slaves were worth money).

But whereas in many places a slave is just that, a fellow human being who for various reasons has become obliged to work for someone else in a master slave relationship - in the American system they were regarded as essentially less than human. A more degrading situation for both parties. A slavemaster in most places would be aware that it could just as easily be the other way round, and a former slave would just be the same as anyone else. I suspect that that kind of thinking would have been regarded as absurd and offensive in the South.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:14 PM

Read a biography of Toussaing l'Ouverture; I think slavery is slavery, and absolute power over another person doesn't lead to virtuous behaviour.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:53 PM

Haiti is in America.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:49 PM

Is it? Which state?

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:20 PM

Haiti

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:24 PM

Republic of Haiti, that is to say. Situated a few miles south of another republic known as the USA.

Subject: Lyr Add: COME THE GLOBAL CALAMITY (Paul Spencer)
From: Clean Supper
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 08:47 AM

It might be of interest to know that in England certainly and I believe in the USA and Australia and qute probably other places, people serving jail sentences are given "useful work" to occupy them and are paid a pittance a day, enough to buy the crap, expensive cgarettes in the jail if they´re lucky. They make road signs, for example, and other things for the government but the idea has been floated to sell their labour to private companies. This is already slavery and the rich are getting in on it in yet an other way.

In addition, I have written a relevant-ish song last year, to an Irish slip-jig (9-8) called The Disused Railway. My song is called

             Come the Global Calamity
by Paul Spencer

1. Waching telly hypnotically,
Spending money neurotically,
Making choices robotically,
Turning into a slave,
School to make me employable,
Work to make me reliable,
Just when life gets enjoyable,
Lay me into my grave.

Chorus:
Come the global calamity,
Markets crashing dramatically,
Final show of insanity,
Time to start anew,
People starving to death,
Even over here in the West,
And you won´t have time for a breath,
But we´ll all have something to do.

2. Life is easy n benefit,
Drinking beer for the fun of it,
Smoking weed for the zen of it,
Nearly dying on smack.
Try to stand on my feet,
But I find there´s nothing to eat,
And it´s cold out here on the street,
So I soon come grovelling back.

chorus

3. Spend the day on the phone,
Like a dull mechanical drone,
And I might as well be alone,
´Cause I´ve got no time for a chat.
Work till 6 and then leave,
With a lousy wage for teh week,
And I don´tknow what I´ve achieved,
But it nearly pays for my flat.

chorus

Sorry I couldn´t give anything that answers the question at the top of the thread.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 10:44 AM

Now I'm confused. Republic of Haiti is part of the US? Taxation, representation, citizenship, etc? How many states *does* the US have?

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:52 PM

Did anyone say Haiti was part of the USA? I know I didn't.

The system of slavery developed in America wasn't confined to the USA.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,SHANNON LEDFORD
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:53 AM

AMAZING GRACE!!!!!!! (SHORT AND TO THE POINT!)

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:53 PM

McGrath of Harlow said, in part:


But whereas in many places a slave is just that, a fellow human being who for various reasons has become obliged to work for someone else in a master slave relationship - in the American system they were regarded as essentially less than human. A more degrading situation for both parties.

McGrath, why do you think that (bad as it indubitably was) was peculiar to the American system? Or to put it differently, why do you think that aspect was absent from every other slave system in the world in history?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:46 PM

Modern Irish scholarship draws a clear distinction between US chattel slavery and any form of white slavery including the Algerine/Barbary form. The distinction is not new; the perspectin of the need to imagine worse horrors than the Algerine slaves experienced may be.

Excerpts from a book at Gutenberg summarize:

"'Indeed, truth and justice demand from me the confession that the Christian slaves among the barbarians of Africa are treated with more humanity than the African slaves among the professing Christians of civilized America; and yet here sensibility bleeds at every pore for the wretches whom fate has doomed to slavery.'

Such testimony would seem to furnish a decisive standard or measure of comparison by which to determine the character of White Slavery in the Barbary States. But there are other considerations and authorities. One of these is the influence of the religion of these barbarians.... the generally kind treatment bestowed by Mohammedans upon slaves. The lash rarely, if ever, lacerates the back of the female; the knife or branding iron is not employed upon any human being to mark him as the property of his fellow-man. Nor is the slave doomed, as in other countries, where the Christian religion is professed, to unconditional and perpetual service, without prospect of redemption. Hope, the last friend of misfortune, may brighten his captivity."

I offer this as information, not argument.....my fone does not facilitate making links and pasting multiple text quotes but the information is out there.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:17 PM

"A xebec (/ˈziːbɛk/ or /zɨˈbɛk/), also spelled zebec, was a Mediterranean sailing ship that was used mostly for trading. It would have a long overhanging bowsprit and protruding mizzen mast. It can also refer to a small, fast vessel of the sixteenth to nineteenth centuries, used almost exclusively in the Mediterranean Sea. ... Xebecs were similar to galleys used by Algerian corsairs and Barbary pirates" --- Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:52 PM

One of the largest of the pre-African-slave-trade groups of white slaves were the Ukrainian and Caucasian slaves traded to the Ottoman Empire. At its height, this business extended to North Africa, and was run as their major business enterprise by the Knights of St John, based at Rhodes until the Ottomans threw them out in 1522. So the upstream end of the enterprise was Christians selling pagans and fellow-Christians to primarily Muslim buyers.

One interesting angle was that Islamic law forbade castration, but didn't restrict the importation of eunuchs. So the supply route was deliberately taken outside Muslim territory so that slaves could be castrated to meet the demand for eunuchs.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLLH1i5_LlQ

Heres a song by Damien Dempsey "to hell or Barbados", which tells the story very well

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:11 PM

To reiterate what I said in 2003 about what the victims had to endure,

Would a young girl snatched from a tiny English hamlet, thrust into an utterly alien environment and valued only for her vagina agree with you?
Or the man, whose value was comparable to an onion, chained permanently to an oar until the day the lash could no longer animate him, and then disposed of. Had he been taken as a boy (highest value white slave) subjected to years of systematic buggery until he lost his boyish looks.

And as another contributor said,

ard mhacha - PM
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 01:55 PM

I taped that programme on the Arab Slavers and after another look, , I have to agree with Keith, this exsistence for the captives was hell on earth, the books I have read on this, leaves me to the conclusion that they fared worse than the black slaves. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:17 PM

Keith I am not denying the horrors of white enslavement. What I am saying is that the US enslavement of Blacks was worse. One horror cannot cancel out the other. As human beings we have to learn how to encompass both horrors-- in all their differences of typeople aND degret. Most of all wHite folks need to learn how to respectacular oUr own hI stories whike nit denying the vastly deeper harms Systemic Racism has done to all psoles. SR hurts wHite folks, too.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:31 PM

...leaves[sic] me to the conclusion that they fared worse than the black slaves.

Bullshit.

Another thinly disguised attempt by KA-HoH to paint Arabs/Muslims in the worst possible light; the old "Muslims Bad - Christians (and Israelis)Good" mantra he so favors."

Or he knows absolutely bugger-all about Black chattel slevery.

Or, probably more likely, both.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:27 AM

A hint of white slavery in C19 in The Tailor In The Teachest, set in days of the China tea-trade -- Cutty Sark & all that. Having discovered the adulterous tailor hiding in the teachest to evade his doxy's vengeful husband whom they thought safely away at sea, the shipmates "took him out to China, and they traded him for tea"; for, it appears, a considerable sumsworth of tea which "made a fine supply for the whole ship's company".

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:36 AM

Ard Mhacher did not like the British very much, but he was no racist.
A much respected and missed Mudcatter.
(The quote was his Greg)

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 09:32 AM

(The quote was his Greg)

Yes it was, Weasel, but YOU quoted it in support of YOUR opinion, which was the same.

Now, as many others have told you before, FUCK OFF!

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 11:37 AM

Yes I quoted a respected non racist who agreed with me.
Why not?

Now, as many others have told you before, FUCK OFF!

As I have told them, no.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:28 PM

Reposting the above now that I'm off the fone and its autospell hell:

Keith, I am not denying the horrors of white enslavement.

What I am saying is that the US enslavement of Blacks was worse.

One horror cannot cancel out the other. As human beings, we have to learn how to encompass both horrors-- in all their differences of type and degree. Most of all, white folks need to learn how to respect our own histories while not denying the vastly deeper harms Systemic Racism has done to all people. Systemic Racism hurts white folks, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:57 PM

You're wasting your time with Weasel, Susan.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 07:56 PM

Oh dear - has he managed to turn this into yet another of his Islamophobic rants?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 08:34 PM

my view

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/capitalist-blues

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 03:48 AM

You people accuse me of things I neither say, mean or believe.
I can not express a view without being attacked and accused.

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 04:01 AM

"I can not express a view without being attacked and accused."
Do you never wonder why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs for white slaves?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM