Irish Music and Religion

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

Dick, perhaps you've never been to one of these Gaelic masses? JS Bach ain't what we're hearing. The music is very "Faith of Our Fathers" oriented, and pretty uniformly bad, IMO.

Doubting Thomas, I think the only dilemma here is yours. You seem to be in conflict with the leadership of your branch, and I'm guessing the conflict isn't as much about the mass as it is how you think the local branch should be run. You seem to be a bit angry over the fact, that they are in control of how the resources of the organization are being used, and how events are being run. If the majority is against you, I personally think you would be happier to stand back, and pick and choose where you will participate and where you won't, or leave the organization altogether, hopefully to find another avenue for your work in support of Irish traditional music.

I wouldn't want to see someone as committed and passionate about the music as you seem to be, stop doing the important work of supporting the music. But it really can be done in ways other than the competitions. In my personal experience, it is that very competition that makes these struggles for control of the leadership, so very difficult and painful when they take place. You really do have my sympathy in that regard.

I agree that most newcomers as well as most musicians involved for any length of time in North American branches of Comhaltas, are there for the music only. But I really think that is unfair to the organization, which has always presented itself as being about much more than just the music--it is also to do with Irish culture, especially the language, the folklore, the literature, which also includes a Catholic mass.

Now, if that makes the organization irrelevant to current musicians, that doesn't mean the problem is with Comhaltas. It is a very powerful, well funded organization, which is why a whole lot of musicians would like to take it over. I've seen that sort of thing happen before in a number of different contexts with grassroots organizations, and the takeovers have always resulted in a pretty negative outcome for most involved. That is what you are risking, IMO, if you attempt to take over your local branch "for it's own good". Now, you say you don't want to take over, you want to "bring people in". Well, I think you are splitting hairs. You seem to think that the way things are currently being run in your local branch isn't bringing enough people in. That may be true, or what may be true is you don't feel you don't have enough company of folks who share your sensibilities, in your local branch. Either way, the only way to change that and bring in newcomers who share your sensibilities, is only to happen if you and a large enough group of like minded individuals band together and take over the local branch.

So go for it. You and I have a fundamental difference of opinion about the importance and value of Comhaltas to Irish traditional music. I personally think it is a blip on the radar which has little to do with the health and welfare of the music and the culture it is rooted in. You seem to think it is an organization central to the survival of the music. I personally feel that the North American Irish traditional music community, along with certain communities of musicians I have mentioned above in other posts, is a bit too anxious to take Irish traditional music out of it's historic cultural contexts, to make it personally more palatable to them. I think that is wrong. Irish Catholic conservatism is a central part of the history of the community of which this music is a living, breathing tradition. To take away it's cultural contexts so you don't have to deal with "those people" is exactly how the music gets dispossessed from it's indigenous community, no matter how well meaning the cultural detractors are. I'm all for seeing the music survive, but not at the expense of the community which gave it to the world, is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: Jimmy C
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

I am a catholic and a musician, and (believe it or not) a volunteer communion minister. I don't really see a problem here. If a mass is scheduled let those who wish attend, others can join them after the mass. If however the event is threatened unless all attend the mass then I say screw that and go somewhere else. I do know that non-catholics are always welcome to attend mass as I am welcomed at other non-catholic services. If one does not want to receive communion that is ok as well. Many catholics do not always receive the sacrament, some will however approach the priest or the server with hands folded across their chest as a sign that they only require a blessing and not communion, others just stay in their seats. I would schedule the event with a timetable, listing all parts. e.g. Breakfast 8.00am to 9.00am, Mass 9.00am - 9.30 amm. Welcome remarks etc 9.45am and so on. No one should be forced to attend mass and/or no one should be made to feel excluded. The idea of having non-catholic services listed is a good idea and a valid suggestion. Remember, you don't always need money to promote music, a small room or a kitchen where people can gather is all that is required, funding can always be found if needed.
Play it - they will come.

Slan.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Promoter of Irish music
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM

I'm a member and officer of this organisation too. The constitution's aims and objectives are clear as are the penalties for anyone acting against the constitution. The constitution is the basis for the organisation's existence under law.

The organisation is not a missionary extension of any religious body and it is illegal to use it as such. To use the organisation's name and resources in such a way is fraudulent... it's that simple! The organisation is in danger of losing its funding and is alienating people of other cultures and beliefs. It does not exist to do this. Its aims and objectives are quite the opposite.

Religious concerns are a matter for those individuals concerned on a personal basis. The organisation has no business involving itself in religious matters. Members who act unconstitutionally should realise these simple facts before they are confronted with them in a court of law.

Be assured of my branch's total support for your stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:17 PM

So sue Comhaltas, jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM

Let all the poisons that are in the mud hatch out ...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:03 PM

In the US, which is where the branch under consideration is located, there is no law which prevents any organization, whether for profit or not, from engaging in religious activities, and collecting funds in association with those activities. It is a very common practice. I don't know where people get the idea that a nonprofit is not allowed to engage in religious activities, including sponsoring religious services in conjunction with other arts and cultural activities.

Seems there is a whole lot of ignorance about these issues by posters here. And I have to say, I fault Doubting Thomas for this, as he is the original poster who made the claim that Comhaltas was violating it's constitution by sponsoring a mass with their festivals, and misrepresenting itself in it's fundraising efforts about it. If that were actually the case, I assure you all, the organization would have been put out of business by the US Justice Department decades ago.

This entire issue is being blown out of all proportion, and the
so-called "arguments" being put forth now are just plain silly.

Comhaltas is not performing missionary work by having mass in conjunction with their festivals. Please someone, tell me people aren't really as gullible, ignorant, or malicious as some are beginning to appear to be here.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Promoter of Irish music
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:40 PM

No, it's not a branch in the USA and yes, the constitution is its rules. These are rules under law. It gets funding from bodies which have their own rules and constitutions too. Some of these refuse or are not allowed (under the law) to fund organisations that engage in religeous or political activites. They could, quite rightly, cease funding and, worse, demand repayment, through the courts if neccessary, of any funding already awarded. I don't think that this constitutes a "silly" argument nor is it blowing it out of all proportion. These are simple facts but with serious implications.

Attempting to protect the organisation from getting into serious bother and wishing to support the organisation's aims and objectives in promoting "traditional", Irish music and culture to all people (regardless of their beliefs) is neither ignorant nor malicious.

The organisation is not a "closed shop" or there for the benefit of one demonination. This is clearly stated in its own constitution. Tokyo, for instance, has one of the largest, most thriving branches outside of Ireland. The majority of its members and supporters are, most likely, either Bhuddist and/or Shintoists and most welcome they are too. Religion should simply be left out of the organisation's activities. It plays no part under its own rules... and just look at the bother it causes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:57 PM

No, I just can't see the problem, so long as there is no compulsion or pressure on anyone to do anything they don't want to. Music is about celebration, and religous services are supposed to be as well.

I echo what Joe Offer said about the Service they have in Whitvy at the Anglican Chrch up the top of the steps. It's in the programme, and it belongs in the programme, and any body who wants to go to it goes to it and anybody who doesn't doesn't.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:13 AM

Instead of taking the word of holier-than-thou posters (including myself), why not get it straight from the horse:

http://www.comhaltas.com/

Also, I anxiously await the posting of the Comhaltas constitution from one of it's illustrious members and officers posting to this thread, to clear up all these issues once and for all. I trust that those of you with a vested interest in the organization will, of course, serve the interests of both the organization and the music, by providing the oft-cited document which you have put to front and center of this manufactured non-controversy, in the interest of fairness to your readers.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:19 AM

Sorry, I also meant to include above a link to the United States' premier source for philanthropic organizations on the web, the Chronicle for Philanthropy. If anyone is interested in the hows, whys and wherefores of religious activities of nonprofits, perhaps you might like to do some reading about it here:

http://philanthropy.com/free/resources/rel/religion.htm

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Doubting Thomas
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:18 AM

ND, I'd be happy to post the constitution but I actually think that this might not be appropriate under the Mudcat rules, which I don't want to abuse as a guest. If you go to the site for the Cooley-Keegan branch in San Francisco they have an on-line version. Go to www.sfceltic.com/IRISHMUS (I think).

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Doubting Thomas
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:21 AM

You can also access Cooley-Keegan's site via the main Comhaltas site. Look under 'Branches'.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Promoter
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM

With respect, what other, philanthropic organisations do is not the point. If their contitutions allow these activities then ok, no problem for them. If an organisation's contitution states that it is non demoninational, then it is obliged to act accordingly.

Engaging in religeous activities is not part the organisation's stated aims. Taking funding from from other bodies who are not allowed to fund religeous activities is just, plainly and simply, wrong no matter how well intentioned.

The constitution may be viewed here. Kindly check clause 3. :-)

http://www.ccewest.org/an_bunreacht.htm

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM

"Engaging in religeous activities is not part the organisation's stated aims. "

Nor I imagine is breathing or going to the lavatory.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:50 AM

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:10 AM

We'll try that again.

Thanks to both Doubting Thomas and Promoter for providing links to online versions of the Comhaltas constitution. I am now more certain than ever that both of you are attempting to justify eliminating the Catholic ethos from the organization, by attempting to remove the music, song, and dance from it's cultural contexts. Well, the Comhaltas constitution won't allow you to get away with it, as it is very clear the organization's stated mission, aims and objectives includes promotion of Irish arts, language, and culture, which of course can (though is not required to in the constitution) include a mass as part of the branch activities.

I cannot stress enough that I believe you are dead wrong in the definition you are using for "non-denominational". That doesn't mean non-religious, and nowhere in the constitution does it say religious activities are prohibited. That would be silly in any organization whose mission is to promote Irish arts, language and culture, as the Gaelic mass is a long standing tradition in the Irish language community. I also note that the organization has a clause which allows both "clergy and lay" to have a special status within the organization for assisting in the promotion of Irish arts, language and culture. So I'm afraid you lads are just plain dead to wrong.

Here are the relevant excerpts from the constitution. I have bracket my remarks thus []. I begin with the opening paragraphs of the constitution:

Comhaltas, which was founded in 1951, has today over 400 branches of the movement at home and abroad. Through Comhaltas, the traditional musicians, singers and dancers are organised and presented in the various events promoted by the movement.

Educational facilities have a high priority in the movement's programme, and it is through its numerous classes and courses that exponents of the native arts are given the opportunity of developing their artistic abilities in this sphere of our native culture.

[There lads, they've covered it right there: "developing artistic abilities in this sphere of our native culture" means they are fully within their rights to hold Gaelic mass where the musicians can perform in a setting which promotes "native culture" which of course includes a Gaelic and/or English mass, as the native culture is predominantly Catholic, as you noted.]

Comhaltas concerns itself with the development of an environment conducive to the Aims and Objects of the movement; this is reflected in its work in the field of radio, television, films and other areas of the communications media.

Through publications, records, sessions, concerts, céilithe and other educational-recreational projects, the movement continues to mould our music, song and dance as integral and potent components of community life.

["other educational-recreational projects...as integral and potent components of community life" certainly would be inclusive of a mass]

Irish, the native language of Ireland, is afforded a special status in Comhaltas and the movement is unreservedly committed to its promotion.

[Again, Gaelic mass is one common way of promoting the Irish language in it's native community, which, BTW, is Irish for those of you who aren't interested in the language or cultural aspects of this organization]

AIMS AND OBJECTIVES

(d) To foster and promote the Irish language at all times;
(e) To create a closer bond among all lovers of Irish music;
(f) To co-operate with all bodies working for the restoration or Irish Culture;

[I note that (f) in particular allows for co-operation with church bodies interested in restoration of Irish culture]

MEMBERSHIP

3 An Comhaltas shall be non-political and non-denominational. Membership shall be open to all who are in sympathy with the Aims and Objects of An Comhaltas, and who undertake to abide by its Constitution and Rules.

[This was the one that Promoter told us to watch out for, and I see nothing in this clause which forbids members of any religion. Perhaps this is where the two of you are confused. This clause states you can't forbid anyone from becoming a member based upon their religious or political views, which of course allows anyone of any faith or political persuasion to join. This clause doesn't concern itself with the activities of the organization, but the terms of membership. So if this is the clause the two of you are leaning on, you've been shot in both feet]

PATRONS
4 The Organisation shall have authority to invite a person or persons, clerical or lay, who need not necessarily be members to become patrons during his/her lifetime. The CEC shall select a Patron on the grounds that he/she has shown sympathy with the work of the Organisation, or interest in its activities or regard for its Aims and outlook. He/she may take part in all the activities of An Comhaltas; but he/she shall not have the right to vote at any meeting of the Organisation.

[And there you have it. The organization allows for clergy special status within the organization. Hardly a constitutional clause that "forbids" religious participation, eh?]

GENERAL
18 All functions held under the auspices of An Comhaltas shall be in keeping with the ideals of An Comhaltas and the Clár for such functions shall be submitted for prior approval to the immediate superior governing body.

[Looks to me like this clause also allows for mass to be held in conjunction with Comhaltas activities, as it can certainly be argued that a mass for the Irish community "shall be in keeping with the ideals of An Comhaltas"]

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,ceejay
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:27 AM

In the interests of clarification could someone tell me if prayers are routinely said before a parliamentary session does that constitute promoting Christianity over Islam or Judaism or other faiths?

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:34 AM

ceejay, I believe that whatever religion's prayers are said before a parliamentary session does constitute the promotion of that religion over other faiths. And because it is a parliamentary body's duty to represent and govern people of all faiths and none, I feel it is wrong to use prayers in this manner.

However, we aren't talking about a government body regarding this organization, so there are no church and state issues here. Comhaltas is just a nonprofit organization for the promotion of Irish arts, language and culture. There are gazillions of them around the world, and many of them use religious services common to their communities, to promote their arts, language and culture. Which is why this is all so silly.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:05 AM

Before I say anything, I want you to know that I love the Comhaltas and have been a member. We were delighted to visit Belgrave Square and to know how important the organization is to the furtherance and support of Irish music.

Now, the issue at hand. The Catholic Ethos. In the States, a lot of people say that we are basically a Christian nation. This is used as a pretext for promulgating Christianity over other forms of religious expression by certain reactionary sects such as the Southern Baptists.

Is Ireland a Catholic nation? At first blush it would appear so. It would seem that if the majority of the membership of Comhaltas would like to have a Catholic mass conducted under it's banner, then this is OK.

Here in the States, we think of this as the "tyranny of the majority".
It goes back to the philosophy behind the framing of our
Constitution. The United States is not a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Zoroastrian country. We do have organizations that are non-profit with a particular leaning but they do not represent our county as governmental or necessarilly American cultural bodies. It may be different in Ireland, I don't know.

Can a Jew be a Comhaltas member? Can a Muslim be a Comhaltas member? So the mission statement ostensibly says. But can a Jew in good conscience attend a mass other than as a disinterested spectator? Can a Muslim? Can a Protestant for that matter? Can an Atheist? Does this bias enter into the selection of those contestants at a Fleadh? jA religious ethos promulgated in an organization doesn't make me feel wholly comfortable with it.

I don't know the answers. These are questions not opinions. I confess an ignorance of Irish "culture" although I loved our visit to Ireland and the Irish people that we met. I also love the Comhaltas and what they do. Wish we had something like that here in the States.

The closest thing I can think of is the "bluegrass" community which as far as I know doesn't have a formal church ceremony under their respective auspices but there is a cultural bias.

I wish the Comhaltas well and hope that this difficulty can be resolved. I do see it as a problem.

Frank

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

I can't see any reason why a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Protestant, or an Atheist can't attend a Mass if they want to. I'm not sure what the difference is between an interested spectator and a disinterested specator, but either way they'd be more than welcome.

And I'd have no worries myself as a Catholic attending a service at any other place of worship. I've done it often enough, and it's a nice change

Why make a big deal out of a communal celebration? There's a whiff of intolerance around.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:53 AM

'Comhaltas is a very particular sort of organization that will soon go the way of the dinosaur because it's conservative hierarchy is so out of touch with the mainstream'. Your words, ND. I didn't entirely agree with them in the first place and your last post would seem to contradict that view, given your very informed and complimentary overview of it's activities, assuming that you (hopefully) can agree that we actually do what we say we're going to do.

Now, you have your own interpretation of the constitution. I have mine. You place it in a context and come to certain conclusions. I do the same and arrive at different conclusions. So does Promoter.

I don't entirely subscribe to the 'Doomsday scenario' Promoter foresees where we end up being compelled to return money through the courts although I agree it's theoretically possible that someone could try. I doubt that it would be worth it. However, my inclination if I were approaching a potential sponsor for money would be this: I would tell them that our constitution says we are non-donominational but (as I said way back at the beginning of the thread) most of our members, in this part of the world at least, are Catholics and it has been the custom for an optional Mass to be made available. However, membership is open to all and no-one who isn't Catholic is discouraged from practicing their own faith, if they have one. I would hope I'd be telling the truth.

It would then be up to the sponsor to decide whether to support us having been given something like the whole picture. One might point out to the sponsor that there is some debate in the organisation (which, correct me if I'm wrong, ND, you say you're not active in) but even that might be counter-productive.

Now, fair point to ND. The constitution does enable the organisation to appoint patrons 'both clerical and lay'. My own view is that wording of that clause is something of a period piece from early 1950s Ireland but fair point, it is in there, just as much as the 'non-denominational' bit. At the risk of being pedantic, though, it quite rightly doesn't specify which denomination.

I've never had a problem with this. Plenty of Catholic and Non-Catholic clerics have gone out of their way to help and support us over the years. Gratitude and respect is due to them as it is to many of the more conservative 'lay' members of the organisation who've done so much for it over the years.

But I think Promoter is right to point out that other organisations that may include religious observances in their cultural events do so having made it clear from the outset that their religious outlook is a fundamental part of the organisation's culture and ethos. I don't agree that our constitution says the same thing. Your argument seems to rest heavily on the view that because Mass has always held such a central role in the life of three-quarters of the people of Ireland, plus the millions in the diaspora, it cannot be separated out from the ethos of an organisation that is focused on Irish Music, Dance and Language (though the last less so where I live). I'm afraid I don't accept the logic (and I grant that it is a logic of sorts).

As it happens, I think I have a solution for the short term and if I don't then for now I'd rather lose the argument and keep the Fleadh rather than the other way round. But I think the amount of time we've all spent on this shows that it's not just an issue in one area. NDs reference to a branch in the USA demonstrates that. Lots of people have obviously given it a lot of thought both inside and outside Comhaltas and it's clearly not going to go away.

I will of course continue to reply to messages but I've got some work to do now. Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far and to the Mudcat far your hospitality.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

I agree, there is a very strong whiff of anti-religious bias to this thread, and to what Doubting Thomas claims he is attempting to do.

Frank Hamilton, I think you are not understanding that Comhaltas is:

1)an Irish organization with branches around the world, and is NOT US founded or headquartered;

2) that it is more than just a music organization. It clearly states in it's constitution that is also an organization that promotes the Irish language and Irishy culture;

3) that the Catholic ethos of Comhaltas is deeply rooted in the Irish Gaelic speaking community's cultural traditions, which includes teh Catholic faith;

4) not one jot of this has anything to do with whether the US is officially a Christian nation (it is not), or Ireland being an officially Catholic nation (it is, just like Poland is).

In Ireland, where Comhaltas is based, the cultural and language aspects of the organization are every bit as important to it's membership as the music. Also, it is a very common practice in Ireland, for many organizations, local governments, etc. to offer a mass in conjunction with community events and festivals that take place over the weekend.

Now then, Comhaltas has nothing whatsoever to do with the US government, or vice versa. It is not a US organization, it is an Irish organization, with branches in the US, in Canada, and around the world in the Irish diasporan community. Perhaps Frank, you didn't read my post above where I took great pains to cite from the source--the organization's constitution.

So I am wondering Frank, why you keep insisting that this organization should be cleansed of it's religious roots? The constitution being discussed here is not the US constitution, but Comhaltas' constitution, which I quoted extensively from in my post above.

You say: "We do have organizations that are non-profit with a particular leaning but they do not represent our county as governmental or necessarilly American cultural bodies."

Again, I think you are misunderstanding what we are discussing. Comhaltas is not an American organization, it is an Irish organization with branches here. It is headquartered in Dublin. Comhaltas doesn't "represent" the United States in any way, shape or form. It is no different than many other immigrant community organizations that exist in the US, with ties to the immigrant community's home country.

You ask: "Can a Jew be a Comhaltas member? Can a Muslim be a Comhaltas member? So the mission statement ostensibly says. But can a Jew in good conscience attend a mass other than as a disinterested spectator? Can a Muslim? Can a Protestant for that matter? Can an Atheist?"

Why on earth would a member of any religious faith NOT be able to attend another religion's services with a clear conscience? What does that have to do with anything? That is just such a bizarre suggestion.

You then state: "A religious ethos promulgated in an organization doesn't make me feel wholly comfortable with it."

Well Frank, with respect, it looks to me like you just plain don't like religion, and aren't interested in participating in organizations with a religious ethos. That is fine and dandy, and you are fully within your rights and reason to be and think that way. But it does NOT give you a right to dictate to others that they adopt your way of thinking and being on religion, and organizations with a religious ethos.

Don't like Comhaltas' Catholic ethos? Then you don't have to have a thing to do with it. That is your choice. But to suggest that Comhaltas should cleanse itself of it's Irish cultural ethos, which does include the Catholic faith, is pretty bigoted, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

I assume it was you Doubting Thomas, who posted as Guest just above, and said:

"Your argument seems to rest heavily on the view that because Mass has always held such a central role in the life of three-quarters of the people of Ireland, plus the millions in the diaspora, it cannot be separated out from the ethos of an organisation that is focused on Irish Music, Dance and Language (though the last less so where I live). I'm afraid I don't accept the logic (and I grant that it is a logic of sorts)."

I'm going to say this again, one more time. Comhaltas is an Irish arts, culture and language organization, headquartered in Dublin, Ireland. It's constitution clearly states it IS NOT JUST A MUSIC ORGANIZATION. It has branches around the world. What you are attempting to do is lop off the linguistic and cultural aims of the organizztion, to suit yourself. It is beginning to appear that Doubting Thomas, along with those who defend him, clearly don't want to bothered with the Irish culture and language aims of this organiztion, so they are using the ruse of religion to try and rid the organization of any activities except Irish music, without going directly after the language and culture.

They are disingenuously doing this, by claiming that Comhaltas IS NOT a cultural organization, and that the culture encompasses and includes a Catholic ethos.

Their reason for wanting to do this is the power and influence Comhaltas itself. Because it is the main body concerned with Irish traditional music competitions both in Ireland and internationally, what they want is the organization's resources, without the cultural baggage that currently comes with it.

That, my friends, is the definition of cultural theft.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

I also note Doubting Thomas' reasons for not divulging his branch. This way, he and his branch can't be identified, and so what he is doing in his attempt to undermine and do away with Comhaltas' aims and objectives outlined in it's constitution, can't be prosecuted under the rules.

Convenient, that.

Like I said, I don't care if the organization dies tomorrow. What I do have a problem with is dispossession of the culture, and cultural theft by people who clearly despise the culture in question.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Steve Schaper
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

When I attend a Roman Catholic Mass, and I am acquianted with the priest, so that he knows I'm an evangelical, I go up with the others, and recieve the blessing, rather than the eucharist (which would be violating canon law). I have no problem with that at all.

Most of the western musical tradition has to do with the Mass. That is just how it is. Those that aren't actual works for the Mass are significantly influenced from the music of the Church used for the Mass.

In that context, I don't see a problem with having the Mass at your event. Just be sensitive, make sure all know the rules about the eucharist and the blessing, and with the priest's consent, perform appropriate musical pieces that intersect between your groups' focus and the Mass. That way, not only with Catholics recieve spiritual nourishment, but non-Catholics will have an educational experience.

Steve

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:30 PM

This isn't about religion at all. What it is about, is a number of younger musicians, most of whom are Irish or have Irish ancestry, wanting to wrest control of the most powerful Irish traditional music organization in the world, and cleanse it of it's Irishness. They don't like the conservative Catholic membership, they don't like the ties this organization has to Irish republicanism and nationalism, and they don't like the fact that so many officers in Dublin are committed to keeping the organization rooted in Gaeltacht culture, which is, predictably, conservative and Catholic.

What they want is to steal the resources of Comhaltas, take control of the organization, and make it over in their image, rather than the image of it's founders.

They want to control it, to make it into an Irish traditional music only organization, without the Irish culture and language. They are only using religion as a smoke screen, because it is a convenient ruse to use to avoid people seeing what they are really doing, and take note of the fact that this is an obvious American attempt to engage in the cultural theft, to get what they want: the music without the Irish cultural baggage.

The mass plays such a small part of Comhaltas' activities, it is an absolute no-brainer to see what they are doing. I suspected this might have been the case all along, and the more we hear from the Doubting Thomases and others who want to cleanse Comhaltas of it's Irish Catholic conservative republican and nationalist roots, the more it becomes obvious that is just what they are doing--trying to steal this powerful and well endowed organization away from it's rightful owners--the conservative Catholic membership.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

Wait - did I hear this is a Gaelic Mass, like done in the Irish language? If that's the case, it certainly wouldn't be authentic. Except in the Easter Rite of the Catholic Church, the Mass was celebrated in Latin until the end of the 1960's.

I guess if you want to be authentic, you'd have to have a mob of old ladies armed with rosaries, with doilies covering their heads. The music should be smarmy hymns sung in Latin and English, with a little off-key Gregorian Chant sung at dirge cadence. Oh, and no more than ten percent of the people in attendance could be men.
Now, THAT would be authentic tradition.

I don't know much about Irish-language masses, but I'd like to. I can't imagine that they are an authentic part of tradition.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM

Uh Joe. Did you know that the island now known as Ireland, once was a monoglot country that spoke a language that was neither English or Latin?

The language is commonly known as Gaelic. Back in the day, when Gaelic speakers went to mass, it was actually conducted in Gaelic. Seems silly, I know, but there you have it.

Oh--there is this other thing about Irish traditional music too. It is called singing. There is this funny little language no one understands that a lot of the old people who are greatly revered (in public, often derided in private for being culchies) by the Irish traditional musicians of today. No one is really sure what it is, but many are certain whatever language they are singing in, that it can't be authentically Irish, because it would have to be English or Latin to be authentically Irish.

Oh, I don't know where people got the idea that Irish people were Catholic. That isn't authentic either. Irish people are pagan or Protestant. There are a few Catholics with tails running around, blowing everyone up, but we've denounced their like for many a century now.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Authentic doesn't have to mean old does it? It implies having some roots in tradition.

A Mass in Gaelic is no more or less authentic than a Mass in English or Vietnamese. Or Latin.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:13 PM

The Gaelic isn't authentically Irish. It is fake, actually. I think we need an ethnic cleansing campaign to go into Connemara, Kerry and Donegal, and take care of this nonsense once and for all. Everyone knows those are the Catholic Fenian strongholds, after all. We need to ethnically cleanse those dirty Catholic Fenians, once and for all.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:13 PM

Give Comhaltas back to the Anglo Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM

Authenticity isn't the issue here. The very fact that Comhaltas has regularly (though not always, as has been noted) included a mass with it's weekend festivities in Ireland, and in many branches worldwide since it's inception in the 50s, makes the mass a Comhaltas tradition, whether in English or Irish. That is all that matters in this instance.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM

I dunno, O Nameless One - I have very little knowledge of the Irish language and the history of its use. I have to admit that until about ten years ago, I was unaware that English was the primary language of Ireland, and that very few people there spoke Irish. I was surprised that during my two weeks in Ireland, I did not hear one single person speak a language other than English.

I do have eight years of Catholic seminary training and a degree in theology, so my training in Catholic church history is pretty good. As far as I know, the Latin Mass was universal in the Latin Rite for over a thousand years. When Irish people went to Mass, it was in Latin, not Irish. There may have been some Irish-language hymns used at Mass before English took over as the dominant language in Ireland, but I really don't think that the actual text of the Mass was recited in anything but Latin (except for the Kyrie, which is Greek). If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

As far as I know, vernacular languages such as Irish and English were not used at Mass until the late 1960's - and my knowledge of such things is pretty good. Therefore, unless I'm mistaken, an Irish-language Mass is a very recent innovation and certainly not what one would call "traditional." Still, I would very much like to attend a Mass with Irish language and music.

"No Doubt" (you're not the Nameless One I addressed above, because you are using a name) - I think I agree with you. If Mass has been a part of the festival since the 1950's, back when people weren't offended by the practice of religion, then it seems to me it might be very nice to continue that tradition. If the Mass is being used as a weapon, to force Catholicism upon unwilling victims, then I think that is a sacrilegious abuse of the Mass.

But on the other question, I really would like to see any evidence that Irish Catholics celebrated Mass in any language other than Latin before the 1960's.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,No Doubt
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 04:15 PM

Hello Joe. You are correct in stating that the Irish Catholics were largely like their European counterparts in most things, including the language of the mass. To understand the historic uses of the Gaelic mass, so one would study the history of the Irish language revival and romantic nationalism, not church history.

That said, there are some differences in the Irish Catholic folk religion, which I alluded to above. For instance, from the Christianity Today website on Celtic Christianity, it says:

"Far from being culturally and religiously isolated from Europe, the Irish and Welsh prayed in Latin for most liturgical purposes, just as their Christian brothers did throughout the Western Church. We still have several Celtic manuscripts in which the prayers of the Mass, baptism, and anointing of the sick are recorded—all quite similar to those in other parts of the European church...Alongside the psalms, biblical canticles (such as the Magnificat), and hymns—both Latin and vernacular—were popular.

Vernacular prayers—we have more in Gaelic than in Welsh—were less ecclesiastical in feel. They reflect a more personal or domestic use. Such prayers include praises of God, prayers to his saints, requests for protection, and blessings. Some even seem more like magical charms than prayers. Of course, there was also a great deal of what we might now call "folk Christianity"—the faith of a largely peasant population—as well as native poetry and lore.

There were differences in detail between the Celtic Christians and their continental neighbors: church architecture, Easter dates, inheritance laws, and local traditions. But almost all the main features of early Celtic Christianity could be found anywhere in Catholic Europe, where every tribe and tongue and nation made the gospel their own."

While the mass would have been said in Latin, as elsewhere, the people were ministered to in their native language. The prayers, etc. discussed above show that since medieval times, there has been a strong Catholic Gaelic folk tradition. Many Gaelic hymns were composed by women, which are traditional. However, most Irish traditional musicians would not accept these as "traditional" in the sense that secular music is "traditional" even though they both are clearly traditional.

As to when the first Gaelic mass was said, I don't have the answer to that one for you. The answer probably lies somewhere in the pages of Gaelic League history, I'd guess.

That said, if you do a google search using the keywords "Gaelic mass" you might be surprised at what turns up.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 04:29 PM

http://prichard.net/laura/MDUUChumor.html

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM

Sean O Riada composed quite a bit of music for the Gaelic mass. A Gaelic mass is held in conjunction with Willie Week, and you don't get much more about the music than Willie Week. So I guess my question is, and has been all along, if it a mass is good enough for Willie Week in Miltown Malbay, why isn't it good enough for an American Comhaltas branch?

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:09 PM

Not to be pedantic with the craic, but the special status accorded the Catholic Church in the Irish constitution was ended by referendum in 1972. However, at the time the Comhaltas constitution was written, the church did have an official status in the Irish state.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM

Hi McGrath

A Catholic Mass is not just another communal celebration. It is a religious observance.

No Doubt, here are my responses.


"Frank Hamilton, I think you are not understanding that Comhaltas is:

1)an Irish organization with branches around the world, and is NOT US founded or headquartered;"

I never said that it was.

"2) that it is more than just a music organization. It clearly states in it's constitution that is also an organization that promotes the Irish language and Irishy culture;

That's fine if it represents all of Ireland.

"3) that the Catholic ethos of Comhaltas is deeply rooted in the Irish Gaelic speaking community's cultural traditions, which includes teh Catholic faith;"

This may well be true.

"4) not one jot of this has anything to do with whether the US is officially a Christian nation (it is not), or Ireland being an officially Catholic nation (it is, just like Poland is)."

I disagree. It has something to do with forcing a religion on those who don't espouse it.

"In Ireland, where Comhaltas is based, the cultural and language aspects of the organization are every bit as important to it's membership as the music. Also, it is a very common practice in Ireland, for many organizations, local governments, etc. to offer a mass in conjunction with community events and festivals that take place over the weekend."

Yes, I am aware of this.



"Now then, Comhaltas has nothing whatsoever to do with the US government, or vice versa. It is not a US organization, it is an Irish organization, with branches in the US, in Canada, and around the world in the Irish diasporan community. Perhaps Frank, you didn't read my post above where I took great pains to cite from the source--the organization's constitution."

I never said that is was a US organization. It has however, branches in the US. It has something to do with the issue of "separation of church and state" which you are informing me does not take place in Ireland. If that's the case, I accept that.



"So I am wondering Frank, why you keep insisting that this organization should be cleansed of it's religious roots? "

You are obviously angry and have completely misinterpreted my intentions. I have never insisted anything of the kind. I would never use those words.

"The constitution being discussed here is not the US constitution, but Comhaltas' constitution, which I quoted extensively from in my post above."

I have not confused the two constitutions.

"You say: "We do have organizations that are non-profit with a particular leaning but they do not represent our county as governmental or necessarilly American cultural bodies."

Yes, I do say that. I am talking strictly about what goes on in the US, not in Ireland. I'm sorry that this point is not clear to you.

"Again, I think you are misunderstanding what we are discussing. Comhaltas is not an American organization, it is an Irish organization with branches here. It is headquartered in Dublin. Comhaltas doesn't "represent" the United States in any way, shape or form."

I am fully aware of this since I have visited it in Dublin. I never suggested in any way, shape or form that it did represent the US.


"It is no different than many other immigrant community organizations that exist in the US, with ties to the immigrant community's home country."

This may or may not be true. I believe that each immigrant community is unique.



"Why on earth would a member of any religious faith NOT be able to attend another religion's services with a clear conscience? What does that have to do with anything? That is just such a bizarre suggestion."

Actually, there was no suggestion intended but questions asked. And there is a feeling that if you were not Catholic and attended a Catholic Mass, there would be an area of discomfort about it. That's what I meant.

"You then state: "A religious ethos promulgated in an organization doesn't make me feel wholly comfortable with it."
Well Frank, with respect, it looks to me like you just plain don't like religion, and aren't interested in participating in organizations with a religious ethos."

Well, with respect, it may look like that to you but this isn't true.
If Comhaltas were a religious organization, I would have no trouble with it's religious ethos. But you can't have it both ways.
Either Comhaltas is a religious organization or it's not.

" That is fine and dandy, and you are fully within your rights and reason to be and think that way. But it does NOT give you a right to dictate to others that they adopt your way of thinking and being on religion, and organizations with a religious ethos."

I do not do this. This is your idea exclusively. If anything you are attempting to define the Comhaltas as a religious organization.
And the idea that I am dictating to anyone to adopt my line of thinking is spurious and specious. I am asking questions here for the sake of a legitimate discussion and am not interested in engaging in a religious diatribe.

"Don't like Comhaltas' Catholic ethos? Then you don't have to have a thing to do with it. That is your choice.

I never said anything of the kind. This is your interpretation of what I said.

But to suggest that Comhaltas should cleanse itself of it's Irish cultural ethos, which does include the Catholic faith, is pretty bigoted, in my opinion. "

That's because you have completely distorted my views to your liking. I'm not sure what kind of argument you are intent on winning but you have missed the point of the entire discussion in my view. I never have and never would ask Comhaltas to cleanse itself of it's Irish cultural ethos. You say that the Irish cultural ethos is only and exclusively Catholic. Now that smacks of bigotry in my opinion.

Frank

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Subject: R

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:08 PM

It's a religious communal celebration. That's even the word that's used, for that matter. The celebration of the Mass.

There was a time not so long ago when the Catholioc Church used to impose a rule about not attending religious services of other religions, but thank God that's over and done with. If there are other religions still with those kind of rules, it's a sad thing, but that's how it goes, and I hope it won't last for ever.

I think it's the most naturaL thing in the world for religious services to form part of folk festivals. Whether they are interdenominational affairs, or a particular church (or meeting house, or synagogue or whatever) is playing host to whoever wants to come seems to me a matter for the people taking part to decide.

When I've been to the Fleadh Ceoil I've been to the Mass, and it's been worth going to for anyone, in my opinion. And I'd like it fine if they had religious celebrations in the other denominations as part of the Fleadh as well.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:08 PM

Such a battle of the mutually-exclusive traditions. / Um irrespective of what He would drive -- is it permissible to wonder, What would Jesus say here? (No, I don't claim have a clue. Just askin'.)

Joe O., have yer open bar at the wake beforehand. Finnegan. :)
(Woops. Catholic ethos. Sorry.)

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: Roughyed
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:30 PM

Jesus? He'd be down the local synagogue.....

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM

Or perhaps the mosque.

But who is being exclusive here?

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:12 PM

I just dug out the official programme of the Fleadh Cheoil in Clonmel in 1994. As I thought, the service times for the Church of Ireland are printed on the same page as the Mass times. And some of the events took place on the premises of that same church.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Promoter
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:14 PM

Wouldn't holding services for other denominations be multi-denominational? How is this possible in a NON-denominational organisation? It would open in even larger can of worms. Would the people who are pressing for the inclusion of a mass be comfortable providing space for a witches'coven, a Hindu temple, a Shinto shrine, a Pagan alter, etc, etc. (the list is long) for those of its members who may be of such persuations? I think it was a very wise move being non-denominational. It should be strictly observed. I repeat, an organisation that states in its constitution that it is non-denominational should (actually "must", for it has no other choice) act accordingly.
How can a non-denominational organisation justify holding a mass?

This is not an anti-religeous stance. I have never attacked the church, anyone's beliefs or anyone's right to worship. There's ample provision in the world for people to follow their faiths... Christian or otherwise. It clearly isn't Comhaltas' business to be involved in it or to act demoninationally. Providing a mass is clearly favouring one demonination of one belief over all others. This is simply against its rules... the rules it constituted for itself. This is the simplicity of the situation. It isn't about the rights and wrongs of religions or about power struggles. I don't like to be misrepresented and then have my argument rubbished on the basis of that misrepresentation.

Taking money from organisations that are not allowed to provide funds to organisations involved in promoting religion, or engaging in religious activities, and then organising a mass is very definitely wrong. It is, in fact, fraudulent (and hypocritical as has been pointed out previously in this discussion). I am prepared to give to give them the benefit of the doubt, however, and view them as well intentioned but, simply, misguided... but who is going to tell the priest that he is being involved in such practices?

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,mrs doubting thomas
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 07:17 AM

Can I assure No doubt as the wife of doubting thomas, that this is not an american attempt to subvert the organisation. You americans, if it isn't happening to you or in your country its just not happening is it.
He is merely testing the waters looking for advice and thoughts on what has become something of a thorny issue locally. Some contibutors have sensibly suggested taking the path of least resistance, making sure that the mass is seen to be organised as a service to the predominatley catholic membership and making sure that facilities are available to others who wish to make thier own arrangements for religious observance. I think that is probably what is going to happen.
Of course if he had just discussed it with me in the first place we could have been saved the conspiracy theories and general hoo ha.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 08:40 AM

I was in a branch of Comhaltas that indulged in pagan practices, going to celebrate winter solstice at a stone circle, sunrise on a Sunday morning no less.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

As I read through this thread, I see a couple of people who apparently want to see the Catholic Mass, which often is offered as part of weekend trad music activities in the US offered through Comhaltas banned, in the name of religious tolerance. Do I have that right? That the argument being put forth is that there should be no religious services ever offered in conjunction with any Comhaltas events?

I find that to be pretty stupid. Comhaltas isn't the only Irish music organization that does this. Milwaukee Irish Fest and just about every other Irish music festival in the US offers a voluntary Mass as part of their weekend festival activities (of which there are many to choose).

As No Doubt correctly points out, Comhaltas is an Irish organization with branches around the world. For 50 years, many Comhaltas branches with predominantly Catholic membership, have held a Mass with the weekend festivals, again they are strictly for those who wish to attend. Attending the Mass is not compulsory. In fact, if you don't attend the Mass, you'd never even know that it exists as part of most branch festivals. Membership in the organization is open to anyone who supports the aims and mission of the organization, which is non-denominational.

As No Doubt has pointed out, this is an Irish arts and cultural organization, based in the Republic of Ireland. The religious make up of the Republic is 95% Catholic, of the North, nearly 50% Catholic. I think it can safely be said that in Ireland, Comhaltas isn't excluding anyone by offering voluntary services for Catholics and Protestants.

If people don't like the Catholic dimension of Comhaltas, they have two options: either don't attend the Mass (which is what many I know who attend Comhaltas events do) or get your Irish traditional music elsewhere (which is what the majority of musicians I know who are interested in the music do).

Comhaltas has already changed a lot over the years, as the popularity of the music has grown. Many here have made the very reasonable suggestion that information on Protestant services be included. As many have pointed out, they already are. In some branches, there is no religious service on Sunday mornings, and the events are just language, music & culture related. It looks to me like the only religious intolerance here is on the part of the folks who want to ban the Catholic Mass, not the other way round.

I agree Mrs. Doubting Thomas, your husband started a stupid argument that didn't need to be vetted publicly.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: Hrothgar
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 06:19 AM

This could be thread creep, but Joe Offer has made the point that the Irish had to celebrate Mass in Latin, probably up until the time of the Vatican Council that is usually referred to as Vatican II.

However, if I remember my history (or a version of it!) correctly, one of the reasons the Norman English received Papal permission to invade Ireland was that Rome wanted the independent-minded irish church pulled back into line.

One of the manifestations of Irish church indepoendence could have been celebration of the Mass in the Gaelic/Celtic/Irish language - but I'm on fairly shaky ground here. Does anybody else have any theories?

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST,Promoter
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:01 PM

In answer to the charge that this is an attempt to ban religious services from Comhaltas activites let me repeat again, to the point of almost exhaustion, that Comhaltas itself, in its constitution, the one it constituted for itself, not one that was forced upon it, precludes them from being denominational. You are not "banning" something. No one is trying to ban Comhaltas or Comhaltas members from doing anything that is correct and proper under its constitution and no one is trying to ban or is being intolerent of the observance of the Catholic Mass.

There is no religeous intolerance implied at all. This seems to be the biggest stumbling block. Consider it this way, there is a difference between "we" as Catholics and "we" as members of Comhaltas. "We" as members of Comhaltas can't, under our own rules, act denominationally. No one here is suggesting that a Mass can't be obsevered by members of Comhaltas but, to be above board, it can't be organised or promoted under the auspices of Comhaltas. Comhaltas is constituted as a secular organisation to allow it to raise funds appropriately and to be relevant to anyone at all in agreement with its (secular) aims.

The real solution is that those members wishing to organise a Mass do so as private individuals and not in the name of Comhaltas.

Subject: RE: Irish Music and Religion
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:50 AM

All fine and well Promoter. Except Comhaltas has been sponsoring mass with weekend festivals for 50 years, as have all the major Irish traditional music festivals. Are you going after Willie Week and Milwaukee Irish Fest too?

Your solution, whether you want to call it banning or not, is to do away with the mass. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...yet you claim it isn't a duck.