BS: Peace in Ireland?

Subject: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:08 AM

I must say I am very surprised a thread has not been started already. I feel very optomistic that this is the end of the troubles. Or at least the begining of the end. Anyone else got any other ideas?

On the darker light side a UK paper today showed a cartoon of Messrs. Paisley and McGuinness stood at the bar at Stormont.

"Fancy a Kneecap, or sorry, Nightcap, Ian?"

"Aye, Martin, I could murder a Guinness..."

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:42 AM

Here's hoping it will take: Read all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:53 AM

God, let's hope this is finally the end (or at least the beginning of the end) of so many centuries of destructive behavior.

The ordinary working people of NI, or of any community anywhere, have many more common interests, and more important ones, than the differences between their religions.

I realize, of course, that the differences go far beyond theology and church affiliation. In Ireland, one's "religion" is really just shorthand for identifying the community into which one was born and its historic relationship to British rule. That's complicated, I realize, but sooner or later, the differences just have to be finally put to rest, and hopefully that time has finally come.

The British Empire is not the mololithic power it used to be, and none of the churches enjoy their formerly dominant roles in people's lives and minds. It's time for everyone to let go and quit living in the past. Appreciating the music and culture of one's history is fine, but enjoying such traditions should not prevent folks from living in the present and looking forward to a peaceful and productive future.

Peace, love, and best of luck to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: skipy
Date: 09 May 07 - 11:19 AM

"Peace" when is he flying over?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:00 PM

I remember where I was and what I was doing when I heard that the Good Friday Agreement had been signed and thought then that it might be the beginning of the end. When I think back over the last I-dont-know-how-many years about all the violence, bloodshed, bereaved families and cripples created in the name of religion - OK, and politics, well principally politics - well, we can only hope that they will manage to work together in peace.   I had tears in my eyes last night as I listened to the report on the radio, and again now as I write.

If they can get over their differences, maybe there's some hope left?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Cats
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:51 PM

We were in Belfast this Easter and it really is an amazing place. We did the city tour and went to all the places that saw the troubles and heard all the history but the overwhelming message from ordinary people we met out there was that they didn't want their children growing up like they had to. Good Luck to them. Give them all the support they need and want and go and visit.. you'll never regret it. I can let you know of some good pubs, good sessions and excellent food...

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:05 PM

I hope it works.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 May 07 - 12:59 AM

I sincerly hope so, all my family and my wife's family are still there. The events of the past few weeks were indeed very welcome and if things keep improving then the north of Ireland will reach it's full potential as one of the prettiest places in Europe with the friendliest people on earth. (with all due respect to the Newfoundlanders whom I love).
The time for vigilance is now and people there have to be on the lookout to guard against some radical group that will do it's best to wreck the power sharing agreement.
The anomosity and distrust between the two sections of the community has been built up over hundreds of years and will not disappear overnight. The real hope lies with the young people who have the power to make it a lasting peace. The older generation carry a lot of baggage which will be difficult to shred.
Hope springs eternal.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:08 AM

What to the catters living in Ireland think about it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:10 AM

I really am quite amazed at the lack of response to such an amazing event. If you look back on the threads about the troubles and other events in the north of Ireland they often went on for weeks!

Maybe good news is just not enough to fuel discussions and I am destined to be dissapponted by human behaviour forever:-(

Ah well.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:27 AM

It used to be any excuse to start a thread on the subject of NI.
We have so many Irish contributors, yet no one has an opinion on this?
Someone said that they had seen it all before. Well there have been agreements between the moderates on both sides before, but nothing like this. Paisley, McGuinness and Adams laughing and joking together.
Who thought they would live to see that?
Historic IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:19 AM

Agreed Keith.

Well - it's day 3 now and they are still working together. If this carries we could well have a Paisley/McGuinness team visiting the middle east to show them how it's done:-)

Fingers and everything else still crossed.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 May 07 - 11:32 AM

Keith,

The problem is not with Paisley, Adams etc.
Paisley is 81 years old and wants to go down in history as a peacemaker ?. Adams and McGuinness want a unified country (all 32 counties) and will do nothing to destroy the reaching of that goal.
The real problem won't raise it's head until the day Nationalist do become the majority in the north. That day will not be too long in coming especially when Sinn Fein also make gains in the elections in the 26 counties. When hard line loyalists are faced with the real prospect of a United Ireland, then the riots will start and bombs and guns will come out again, believe me.
As a nationalist I hope and pray that I am wrong but I doubt it.

Only time will tell.

In the meantime let us enjoy the dream of a lasting peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 07 - 11:52 AM

Do you really think that the south want to take on the responsibility for all the problems in the north Jimmy? As much as a united Ireland is an admirable ambition it is not as straight forward as the north voting for it. I think the power sharing assembly will pave the way for a state goverened by neither England nor Ireland for a while. That way the egos of all the old protagonists will eventualy subside and a new assembly will, in not too many years, be able to accept rule by the government of the south and the south will be able to absorb a the six counties without taking on all the current problems. I hope so anyway.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:36 PM

Funny that the real Ulstermen, and NI exiles in the US, are yukking it up in this other thread while leaving us outsiders to take up this serious discussion here!

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:50 AM

Jimmy C, I have to agree with your forecast, the Nationalists are going to be the majority party in the future and then the reality will strike home for the Unionists, will they quietly agree to democratic rule? I believe we all know the answer to that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 07 - 03:24 AM

So if as a minority they can not get their own way, they might try to impose their will on the majority by armed struggle?
I am sure that kind of dark ages logic is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:02 AM

You could be right, AM, you are best placed to know what is going on. I sincerely hope not. After all you were wrong when you said "can anyone possibly believe that the Paisley Party will sit and debate with Adams and co like everyday normal governments,in view of the DUPs bigtory towards anything Nationalist, that is a forlorn hope.
" on the other thread. In the nicest possible way I do hope that you will be proved wrong once again! What would happen in the event of the predicted riots and civil unrest? Will Stormont ask for assistance from the UK government? Maybe get the army in? History does tend to repeat itself:-(

Everyone do whatever they can to stop it happening - even if it is only keeping your fingers crossed!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:05 AM

BTW - In case anyone thinks I am lying or twisting the truth in some way the above statement about the Paisley Party etc. was made a mere 7 months ago here

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:16 AM

Sorry if this is turning into a one man thread - I keep remembering things. Like the old Columbo TV series - I keep popping back through the door:-)

Would it be possible that the Nationalist factions in the shared assembly would realise that a strong and quick move toward unification would cause these problems? They are, after all, clever people. They are also politicians and will do their upmost to ensure they stay as popular as they can to as many people as thay can - That is what politicians do! If so would the scenario I described above not be a serious option. Ie where a devolved 'state of Ulster' develops before any move is made toward unification? Much like the UK mainland, where Scotland has it's own government and Wales has its own assembly (and don't get me going on what England has!) we could then have seperate states - Eire and Ulster - sharing the same piece of land?

This is a serious question to those actualy living in the region. Is it possible?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:25 AM

Does anyone remember that edition of Columbo, where the murderer was a personable Irish writer who was an amusing raconteur and author on one level - on another he was wild fenian monster raising funds for 'a terrorist organisation'.

Luckily Columbo caught him. I bet he's out by now, under the peace agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 07 - 04:38 AM

Was he the one who would stride into a bar and demand " a pint of ale"?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:31 AM

Got me there Keith. This is a serious question for anybody watching daytime television.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:20 AM

Anyone with a good handle on the region that can answer my question?

Please?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Den
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:07 AM

Maybe we are all a little jaded, there have been many false dawns. I've spoken to a number of people on the street and the consensus seems to be "big deal let them get on with it". There seems to be an air of wait and see. Are the peace walls going to come down? Are people on either side going to all of a sudden get along? Are the predominantly protestant police force going to suddenly become nondiscriminatory? In answer to your question Dave, who knows, what has changed, what will change, who will change?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 May 07 - 01:28 PM

Dave sure I am wrong, but, hold fire until their asses warm the seats, any sane person wants peace, but with justice, this has still to be realised, I could point out many injustices that has still to be realised.
In the meantime we await to see the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:19 PM

It's very much a step by step situation and hopefully, having come this far, any future problems could be sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:54 PM

Thanks guys - much appreciated. I can well understand the trepidation after all these years of living in hope. My big worry is that people in the region will see any move as doomed to failure before it starts and that will become a self-fulfilling prophesy:-( 3 out of 3 responses here have allayed those fears. I am getting the impression of 'hope for the best but fear the worse' - A healthy attitude in most situations! Is that the general mood in the area?

I have had no feedback about the possibility of the region becoming self governing - Not beholden to either England or Ireland, even if in the short term. Is that someting that you can see happening or am I away with fairies? Can we also put a timescale on when people feel that the peace does have a longer lasting chance? When, for instance, should we expect the predicted riots and bloodshed? Whan can we assume that the worst is over and it will not happen? Basically - how long do I have to hold my breath and cross my fingers for?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 May 07 - 07:38 AM

Dave, it's very hard to answer those questions.

As the move towards peace has progressed the economy has improved - things like more employment and rising house prices. Hopefully, people will enjoy the improvements and this will give incentive to continue in a positive way.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:57 AM

A lot of you are forgetting the very low turn-out in the recent NI election 40 per cent of the people did not vote, that is rock bottom for the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 07 - 03:47 PM

I am a fan of Tommy Sands, the songwriter from Belfast area. His songs, "There Were Roses" and "Love Will Come Again" speak more deeply than all the rhetoric from both sides of the "troubles" can do.

It's time for Ireland to put away her differences and become whole again.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 May 07 - 09:14 PM

I was away on hoilidays or would have answered your question sooner, Dave.

Yes, I gather the guns etc., are finally silent. But in the 10 after the 1994 peace deal, there were some 2,000 plus punishment beatings, kneecappings etc., the majority of them by loyalist groups, plus a number of murders, several of them still unsolved. However, in the last last few years even this seems to have died down. That's a good thing at least. Some people will grow up and live out their lives that otherwise might not have done so. A generatuion will grow up that won't have firsthand experinece of the fear and tension living in such a situation brings, such as the fear of walking down the 'wrong' road at the 'wrong' time, drinking in the 'wrong' pub, having too-predictable a daily routine that might get you killed, etc.,

But i think those who posted here saying that it's time people forgot their differences are missing the key point. It was never about religious difference, even when religious difference was shorthand for different background and cultures. People didn't take up arms against one another because they went to different churches, or listened to a different type of folk music etc.,

The problems happened because one part of the community, who indentified themselves by origin, religion and culture wanted to have total dominance of the society in which they lived, at the expense of another part of the community who were different to them in some way or another. To this end, since the formation of the northern state in 1920 and especially from 1922 onwards, when the formation of the southern Free State confirmed this partition, the unionist section of the population worked hard to ensure the two communities were kept divided. Protestant proletarians learned to be thankful for the little they had because their catholic counterparts had even less. That left the ruling elites an ever freer hand to create in their own words "a protestant state for a preotestant people" They completley subverted and distorted the democratic apparatus of the state to serve this end. Electoral boundaries were rigged in order to provide protestnat dominated local councils and government even in areas where catholics were a majority. Catholics were thwarted from obtaining work at most protestant firms, found it impossible to get ANY job in the public sector and were discrimintaed against at every level in society from housing, to jobs, to social welfare etc.,

This state of affairs - an effective apartheid state - couldn't last forever. In the 1960s many people had access to TV, or news filtered through in other ways and could see what was going on in the USA with Black Civil Rights movement. The catholics of the north got 'uppity' and started demanding civil rights too. Note that the IRA campaign in the north had petered out by 1962, after a brief flurry in the early 1950s ("Sean South of Garryowen" fame). That didn't stop loyalists murdering two catholics for sport on Malvern Street in 1966. Nonetheless, what the catholic civil rights protestors wanted was equal rights as equal British citizens. Thoughts of a 'united Ireland' were forgotten (at leats for the moment) as unpractical. But even this was too much for unionists (remember also that the act of marching around waving placards has particular resonace in the north - think of the Orange Order: "where we march, we own") and so with worldly-weariness, they picked up their baseball bats, bricks and so on and laid into the catholic civil rights marchers (the UDA was formed about this time for just this purpose). The mainly-protestant police (the RUC) did nothing to stop them, and sometimes even joined in.

Now if unionists could have found it in their hearts to generously grant equal rights to the other human beings sharing their turf, there might have been no Troubles. But you can't expect a generation of articulate angry young people to put up with such treatment for long, and the IRA re-appeared to defend catholic areas (though they were woefully equipped to do so at the time, 1969 / 1970) from loyalist mobs. Hundreds of catholic families were burned out of their homes in what would now be called ethnic cleansing. (The IRA later split into different factions, the Provisional IRA, or 'Provos' as they became known being the more active and aggressive on the ground in general).

Anyway, I won't bore you all with history you probably already know, but just to remind that we are notr talking simply religious, or even cultural difference here.

One might as well have argued back in 1950 or 1960 that it was 'time for black people and white people in America to forget their differences and make peace between them'.

But Peace is nmot simply the absence of violence. Peace can only come about in a society where there is real justice, equality and fairness. Peace is not something that is legislated, constructed out of thin air. It comes about naturally when the above conditions are met. The northern state from 1920 up to recent times (and it still has some way to go) is a stern reminder of the danger of assuming a state is truly democratic simply because it has the veneer of democratic institutions and apparent democratic procedures. It is a reminder of how a state can call itself democartic and appear to the casual observer to be so, yet disenfranchise a whole section of the population.

Peace will come to the north if democracy works, discrimination ends, justice etc., are present. The only hiccup left then will be if nationalists vote to reunite with the south. As another mudcatter here noted, given the current unionist mindset that is likely to create some problems. Unionists have held a privileged position for so long that they simply cannot get out of that mindset to believe the 'other side' won't try and do the same thing if Ireland is reunited.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:28 AM

The 'south' (the Republic of Ireland) will never 'take responsibility for' Northern Ireland. It may be that the two will unite again as one nation at some stage.

Northern Protestants are terrified that a united Ireland would mean that they were under the thumb of people who hate their religion and obey bigoted priests.

It will take a while for this image - which was horribly and sadly true as recently as 50 years ago - to die away.

North and south have been divided by the Border to the extent that most people in the Republic of Ireland now know few people from Northern Ireland, other than those who have migrated south.

What's needed now is what is actually happening: businesses expanding from one side of the Border to the other, and tourism encouraging people from either side of the Border to get to know their unknown neighbours on the other side.

No one in Ireland wants to talk about it because it's all too delicate right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 07 - 06:33 AM

The Northern Ireland protestants (unionists) that I have known have been decent respectable people, who wouldn't settle matters with guns and baseball bats.

I realise you were trying to give a potted history and the truth has to be compressed Nickhere. However it 's not fair to tar a whole community with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 07 - 07:27 AM

weelittledrummer, the Northern Ireland protestants (unionists) I have known have also been decent people, as have the Northern Ireland catholics (republicans).

But guns and baseball bats have been used by both unionists and republicans.

Hopefully they will never be used again.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:15 AM

it makes no sense to me to take the argument that religion plays no part in the "Troubles".
Why do Protestant and Catholic as opponents keep coming up in this history?

It's analagous to people from the South claiming that slavery wasn't an important factor in the US Civil War.

Religion is the nine-hundred pound gorilla in the room.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:48 AM

I have great optimism.

Whenever I sing Silent O Moyle, I think of that seemingly impossible day when peace would come and the suffering be over.
The verse in Silent O Moyle, the story of the children of Lir being turned into swans and the peace that will finally come after long years of children living in pain, tells of the release from that pain in some future day.

"Yet still in her darkness doth Erin lie sleeping,
Still doth the pure light its dawning delay.
When will that day-star, mildly springing,
Warm our Isle with peace and love?
When will heaven its sweet bell ringing,
Call my spirit to the fields above?"

One version of the day of peace in the folk tale would be when the bells of Christianity ring (both Protestant and Catholic bells!)
Another version I read was the day of peace would come and the children released from their swan shape when a woman from the South
lies with a man from the North.

Hopefully the day of peace has come and the children's suffering is over!

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:00 PM

Just a reminder that once again the Protestant UVF have refused to dispose of their weapons, and you ask that we trust them.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 May 07 - 07:44 PM

Frank - "Religion is the nine-hundred pound gorilla in the room."

Religion was an important factor once upon a time. But that was back in the time of the Reformation and Counter-reformation, in the 1500 and 1600s. The whole of Europe was convulsed in a religious 'civil' war at the time. Two factions of Christianity slugging it out: "Do you believe in God the way I do? No? Then take that! and that!" The devil must have really been enjoying himself. Religion was an important issue in the 1700s in Ireland when being a catholic barred you from most walks of public life, severely restricted your freedom etc., The Act Of Succession passed by King Billah (William of Orange) barred catholics from the throne of England - and is in force even today.

But catholic emancipation came with Daniel O'Connell in 1829 and it was an uphill climb to a better life for Irish catholics after that. It was in the north however that they tooka step backwards, as loylaists tried to drag their country into the late 17th century once more.

But at that stage religion itself had little or nothing to do with it. First of all, let me ask you - what are the differences between a protestant and a catholic? Not sure without checking Wikipedia? Then you probably have more idea than a number of the protaganists in the Troubles.

What 'Protestant' and 'catholic' really came to mean was a key to your cultural identity, origins, political outlook etc., If you were protestant it was probable -though not guaranteed (the protestant members of the IRA are often overlooked in this regard) that you had a certian view of the world order that had little to do with religion as such.

Some of these ideas are descended from the social Darwinism of the 19th century as 'scientists' seized on Darwin's theories to explain why Anglo-whites should rule the world. They divided the world into 'masculine' nations and 'feminine' nations and attributed characteristics to them according to their whim. Masculine nations included Germany, Switzerland, Holland and England - firm jawed, hardworking, rational, honest, sober, society-builiding etc., On the contrary, feminine nations such as Spain, Italy and Ireland (France hovered between) were the opposite: irrational, frivolous, lazy, dishonest, socio-pathic or clannish at best and so on. the same attributes were ascribed to men and women, and protestants and catholics in the same way. Underlying all this was the notion that the 'feminine' (Irish catholics) were incapable of self rule and needed the firm hand of masculine nations (English protestants) to rule them.

I'm sure there are many decent northern unionists, but up to more recent times, if you probed them on the subject, you'd find many had inherited these hand-me-down views of their catholic neighbours. "Don't employ a catholic - they're lazy and dishonest and they'll pack the place with other catholics" would be one kind of typical comment. Or "they don't want to work, they'd prefer just to get the welfare payments" etc., Indeed a number or Protestant firms in southern Ireland (I won't embarrass them by naming them) discriminated against catholics (probably for the same reasons) up to the 1940s with signs such as 'vacany - no catholics need apply' and moreover, were apparently able to get away with it.

So you see, it wasn't simply that northern (or some southern) protestants viewed their catholic neighbours with suspicion and condescion on account of religious difference alone, but on a kind of supposed perception of what kind of character accompanied that religious denomination.

Meanwhile catholics generally assumed that if you were protestant, it meant your ancestors came to the land as inavders, you discriminated against catholics, you supported political union with England. In fact it would make more sense to describe the Troubles as a fight between unionists / loyalists and nationalists / republicans than between protestants and catholics. This latter religious labelling only clouds the issue. It helps the powers that-be by presenting what is really a socio-economic struggle as a clash of two religions requiring no further explanation. That is how it was sold to the general public of both countries and abroad - especially by UK tabloids - so the real root causes and injustices were not tackled and the problem prolonged.

Weelittledrummer - yes, I agree, there are of course many decent unionists. But apparently not enough of them to have stopped the Troubles taking place in the first instance. They could have sent their more militant loyalist neighbours 'to coventry' and made such anti-catholic / nationalist behaviour socially unacceptable. Things happened because not enough decent people did enough to stop them happening that way, and because more people preferred to let them happen the way they did. They may be decent in their day-to-day interactions with friends neighbours etc., but yet they gave their support to a political system that favoured them over their catholic neighbours. I cannot account for every single decent unionist, but the general trend was to vote for governments that discriminated aginst catholics, reject those (like Terence O'Neill's) that tried to bring about some small measures of relief for catholics, and continue to support a system (either actively or passively) from which they benefitted, even if that system was unjust to their catholic neighbours.

ArdMacha - indeed, it's true. The UVF and UFF still have their guns and no-one is putting any pressure on them to disarm. They have no political ambitions in the south, unlike republicans, and so the southern politicians were only concerned with republican guns. Once the southerner's patch was secure and republican guns out of the equation, they forgot about any further decomissioning. The media share some of the blame here. they made a huge noise about certain murders committed by republicans since the peace deal (I won't mention any specifics) but hardly a whisper about several murders by loyalists over the same period.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 13 May 07 - 10:16 PM

Nickhetre,

You said it better that I could have described it. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:33 AM

You are far from even handed Nickhere.

You don't have to go back to the reformation to find a time when the Roman Catholic Church had strange views on contraception and divorce. Furthermore these ideas were adhered to in Ireland in a fundamentalist way that they weren't adhered to in other Catholic countries - France, Germany, or Catholic communities in America. And they were held onto longer than in very catholic countries like Spain and Italy.

Small wonder some people had qualifications in their mind at getting involved. I'm sure you will say - it was never about that. Let me assure you it couldn't have helped.

You can't blame the protestant community for the UVF any more than you can blame Germans for the Nazis. We have a BNP councillor in our village - no one knows what to do about it. He wasn't elected - he just spotted a loophole in the electoral system - there were so many seats on the council and not enough people stood. the first thing we knew about it was when it made fromt page of the local papers.

Extremists have a way of getting through.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:17 AM

Thanks for the responses. Certainly food for thought. If I was to pick one up at random it's WLDs last point - You cannot blame a community in general for the actions of extemists, although it is very tempting at times. What you can do though is hold that community accoutable for not doing enough to prevent the extemists taking over - It is the old "They came for the ... but I was not ... so I did nothing".

If the only remaining stumbling block to lasting peace is what the Loyalists will do as and when the Nationalists lead Ulster back under Dublins rule then it is up to moderates ON BOTH SIDES to ensure that that does not happen in such a confrontational way. Stop the extremists from steering the country along that tightrope and, surely, no one will fall off. Or is that too simple?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:17 AM

To add to WLD's post.
Only a couple of weeks ago the Dublin government issued an order to prevent a 17 year old girl travelling abroad.
Her crime? To be pregnant with a diseased child who could not survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Link to above sad story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6610957.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Southern Man
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:15 PM

Things are looking up: the sooner we have a united Ireland without interference from Britain, the better.

Tiochfaidh ár lá

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:37 PM

Amen to that Southern Man.
I have never met a body in England who did not wish it was someone elses problem.
The day that you can get a majority to vote for it, there will be some celebration here.
May it be soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:07 AM

i am protestant,my wife is catholic,what the hell is the problem? neither of us go to church,and i believe that not a great amount of people do in ireland as well.Will they have total peace,i truly doubt it,too many bigots,but we can all live in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:46 PM

Fair enough, Dave, here I am. If you would bother to check my posting history you would find that my support of the peace process goes back longer than you have been on Mudcat. That post is but one that I could point out. But that doesn't mean that I am willing to whitewash the actions of the UK government.

If you are happy about the peace process, then you owe a debt of gratitude to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness and the rest of the Sinn Fein leadership. They have continued to insist on pursuing the political solution in the face of ongoing provocation. And it is instructive to note that the Orange/Loyalists are the ones refusing to disarm, not the Irish Republicans.

Frank, while religion is certainly a part of the troubles from the beginning, it is very important to understand that religion was introduced by the forces of the Crown, and reintroduced by the Capitalists in Ulster as a weapon to separate a people from themselves. When the workers in the Ulster shipyards and the Railways realized they had more in common than different, the Orange card was played. Religion has been used as a tool by those with an interest in keeping the conflict alive. But it is money that drives this, and focusing on the religious aspect just means that we are allowing ourselves to be used by the puppeteers.

But all that is a moot point. The day of the gun is over. For those of us in the States, and for those in the UK, we need to stay back and let this government of the people survive and prosper. The children of Ireland, ALL the children of Ireland, deserve no less.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:53 PM

to quote Ian Paisley NEVER NEVER NEVER

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 01:50 PM

any Irish patriot should vote for FINE GAEL AND LABOUR AND THE GREEN PARTY,in the election tomorrow.
FF call themselves a REPUBLICAN PARTY but are more concerned with taking brown envelopes,they are disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM

Dunno how I came across this - I was looking for something completely different but - hey, these things happen!

Well, over a year later. What is going on in the region? Have any of the suggeted obstacles to peace reared their heads? Did the UVF, or anyone, not give peace a chance? I have heard nothing of guns and bombs for a long time but I am in England. What is it like for the people there?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

The past five months has seen neither side preferring to give way on policing, the DUP want a return to pre-peace policing, Sinn Fein won`t go with that, result stalemate.
As I said in an earlier Thread the seats are not warm yet, too early to say everything is running smoothly, not that it matters the assembly is only a talking shop with little powers, the landlords in England are the masters and if the assembly continues to play eyeball games, Westminster and Dublin will run the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM

Dissident Republican groups are said to be more active than they have been for years.
They keep trying to murder police, mainly using roadside IEDs.
It is only luck that no one has been killed.
Such devices are a real threat to local people as well as the intended victims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7719790.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Bummer :-( Hope the peace rides out the troubles. Ard is quite right of course, it is the landlords, or moneymen, that ae running the show. It is us poor buggers on the ground that pick up the pieces.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM

Not just dissident Republicans.

UDA statement vows to defend 'Britishness' :

"In a report released yesterday (Nov 10th) on paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) said the UDA was genuinely committed to a political path, but that it was hampered by a serious split within its ranks.

The southeast Antrim "brigade" of the UDA, which broke away from the main organisation, was now properly regarded as a separate organisation."

"Fire damage at GAA premises may be revenge for attacks on Orange halls"

Things could still go pear-shaped...

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

Thanks McGrath.
Your first link includes the statement that only "non violent" action will be taken by them.
The second link is about alleged arson in tit for tat response to the other side's alleged arson.

My link was about multiple attempted murders by bombing and shooting, and actual murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

McGrath thanks for pushing Keith in another direction, has to be told first.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM

the man from belfast says no,

it's like the chours to the wild rover

and it's no nay never, no nay never no more.

but I can't wait until peace in N.I comes, but you can't have peace when the people out there are waving their flags- union jack/tricolour ones from their houses.

but until that day comes because it is illegal to do so, then peace will truely come to NI

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:51 PM

I don't think there is any reason to think that the breakaway UDA "now properly regarded as a separate organisation" will feel bound by any pledges of "non-violence" by th Official UDA, any more than breakaway Republicans feel bound by anything Sinn Fein or the IRA says.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:03 AM

I do not understand Ard's last post at all, but he is probably accusing me of partiality.
If so he is wrong. I have always had equal contempt and disgust for ALL the paramilitaries. Both sides.

In McGraths first link there is not even a THREAT of violence, not EVEN from the breakaway faction.
The second link is about two incidents of arson, but only in reprisal for the burning down of Orange halls.

The Idependent Monitorig Commission understandably singled out the Republican paramilitaries because they are planting bombs in the streets and killing by shooting.

Or have I missed something?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:53 AM

What a waste of time replying to KOH, in one of your Threads you were caught out impersonating I thought shame would have confined you to the lower regions, killing on the street?,reading todays Irish News it is reporting on a trial involving the death of a 15 yearold Catholic boy beaten to death by a Protestant mob in Paisley`s constituency of Ballymena.
The UDA instead of issuing statements on their loyalty to the crown should be addressing the drug culture, their main means of finance, and also the issue of their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM

Re the impersonating,yes and I stand by it.
I made Oakville tell the truth, except that the real Oakville felt no shame for the lies he told.
When the victim of a lying attack by a Guest, why should I not fight back when the mods did nothing?
Presumably you support the lying Oakville.
Tell us why.

Re the violence you refer to, yes and I abhor it too.
But I abhor it from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

While people keep dredging up the past there is no hope of peace. Either in NI or here:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM

But I abhor it from both sides.

Precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

don't argue with these people, I tried and got nowhere, and then you wonder why there is trouble in NI, when some people that live there and the south don't listen to reason

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

I found that episode of Columbo that was troubling my memory earlier in the thread. It was called The Conspirator and featured a bravura performance by New Zealand actor Clive Revill as the Irish writer/IRA man.

The guy who wrote it - it says on the official Columbo fans website - it was his favourite episode.

As for the other business, if we both faced the facts, England and Ireland are changing so fast that I don't think whatever we end up with - either of us will be able to recognise our own countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

tell that to people of Ireland (North/South).

but they don't listen

as you say there will no peace until the people forget about the past and just look towards the future

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

andf about the ira

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

What is there to understand ? It is simple, The party Arthur Griffiths started (Sinn Fein) for the removal of the British presence in Ireland became a British party. Salaries paid by Britain, they sit in a British assembly and they administer British law in a part of the United Kingdom.

The PIRA were once independent to Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams Sinn Fein's party leader worked his way into the role of commander- chef of the Provisional IRA and the tail began to wag the dog.

2005 saw the PIRA hand their weapons in and stand their volunteers down and apologise to the families who lost loved ones. In any conflict over the centuries those acts are seen as surrender,can it be called any other name ?

Sinn Fein now sit in Stormont, the home of their masters since the 1920's. They sit under 84 permanent memorials to Loyalists and Unionists. They sit on the Policing board. Yes the same force they accused of involvement in murder, collusion and torture.

The unionists/loyalist have always only wanted one thing. A return of Stormont, the Union Jack flying over it and British rule. They received all of that and a little bonus was the surrender of republican arms and their mandate for war.

None of the unionists in Stormont make requests for the loyalist paramilitaries to disarm. The following organisations are fully armed the UVF, UDA, RHC, RHD, UFF, LVF,PRF and ULF. In fact the loyalists have so many weapons they are exchanging them to drug dealers in Limerick and Dublin for drugs !

The unionists in government make no request to the loyalist groups for weapons because the state has always had an armed paramilitary force to call on. The B' Specials, RUC, UDR and RIR.

Regarding republican dissent groups, RIRA, CIRA and eirigi pose no threat. All this talk about going to whack a policemen, it will never happen because they know the force would wipe them out overnight. A 72 million pound MI5 interrogation centre building in Antrim lying empty. The new ruling of 42 day detention for suspects. All of this would kick in and they know it.

The ball is well and truly over the wall in the North of Ireland. Possibly if Britain stopped sending them handouts people might want to do something for themselves.

The British government have to be admired here, they played the oldest trick in the book and Gerry Adams accepted it, "DIVIDE and CONQUER".

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

tso why don't the IRA   and the republican/loylist want this all on photograpghs then, and then the rest of the world will know that the wepoones have been haded in, I mean it's justhearsy, until we get real proof that thishas happens abouty the weapons then we can't beleive it, until the republicans/loyists terriosts groups say us edvidance that this has happened, it like a fart in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:30 AM

Goatfell, there can never be photographs of the weapons being destroyed. Understand it would be on the front of every loyalist Christmas sold on the Shankill Road in December.They sell Christmas cards with the five catholic men shot dead in Graham's bookmakers on the front. Two men of the cloth were there, they said they saw it along with two Americans, a Canadian and three Europeans. So the fact it occurred is not in question. Glad I am not downwind of your fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

'The British government have to be admired here, they played the oldest trick in the book and Gerry Adams accepted it, "DIVIDE and CONQUER".'

You make it sound as though the English want something other than the Irish of every persuasion to sod off. Stop killing each other, and stop involving us.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Proud son of Armagh
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:36 PM

"What have I now? said the fine old woman.
What have I now? this proud old woman did say.
I have FOUR green fields; one of them's in bondage
In strangers' hands who tried to take it from me,
but my sons have sons as brave as were their fathers.
My fourth green field WILL bloom once again, said she."

- Well said, Tommy. Well said, indeed.

A NATION ONCE AGAIN!

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:58 AM

Fine words, sadly the days of several thousand supporters singing it loudly at a protest rally are over.

I often wonder, when Sinn Fein attend a cross border meeting of Dail Eireann and the British Northern Ireland Assembly, who do Sinn Fein speak for ? is it the Irish or the British.

Well Sinn Fein are a British political party now. Can anyone recall the last time they heard British Sinn Fein call for a united Ireland ?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

'Can anyone recall the last time they heard British Sinn Fein call for a united Ireland ?'

I dunno about that, but God knows I've heard plenty of English people of every political persuasion saying, why don't the Irish sort themselves out?

The fact is that there ARE a lot of your countrymen who feel vehemently that Irish Republic that came out of 1916 and the civil war isn't what they want to be part of.

So if everybody is going to be kept happy - you HAVE to come up with something else - something that is inclusive of everybody's traditions and beliefs.

If you want a united Ireland - the best thing would be to unite. If you just want to go on whingeing because the world doesn't exist in quite the way you would like it ordered - you'd better teach the next generation the words of Four Green Fields and start digging up the rifles.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

Unionists will NEVER fully accept nationalists in government. The term "I wouldn't have a catholic about the place" still holds firm in many places.

The armed struggle is over, that is fact. There are a lot of sore republicans out there who placed their faith in Sinn Fein only to see them do a complete U turn on just about everything they once stood for.

It won't go back to war, but the fear of republican facing republican in a fight is a reality.


It really is very fucked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

'It won't go back to war, but the fear of republican facing republican in a fight is a reality.'

please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

Sinn Fein, CIRA, RIRA and eirigi are brewing to face eachother down at street level. It's at a point were someone will either get whacked or die as a result of a street fight and then it will boil over.

Republicans cannot accept so-called republicans sitting on the policing board and working as British ministers. It is too bitter a pill for many to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:30 AM

yes there can, just take a photo of them being distroyed I mean, a pile of them and then another one being distroyed, I mean they can do it with cars and other things then why not weapens

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

and who metioned anything about Christmas cards because I didn't

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:33 AM

or else you can make a film of them being destryed.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

http://englishrussia.com/images/estonian_customs/1.jpg

this is the russians doing it, and I had a look for photos in the image part of Google and I put in the words IRA WEAPONS DESTROYED and there was none, just hearsay.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:07 AM

Goatfell, please use your energy into getting the loyalists to disarm.
It was me mentioned loyalists putting a picture of PIRA disarming on their Christmas card, no one said you did.

Are you saying the PIRA did not disarm ? are you saying they still hold arms ? Is the words of those respected individuals present at the destruction not enough for you ?

Better still, if you have nothing constructive to add, why not go and get ready for your tablets. Or have an early night in your straightjacket.
Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM

Well the reply to that is I just hate Republican/loyist terroist groups, and please I'll wait for your strightjacket, at lest I have the guts to become a member why don't you, or you like the terroists groups just a coward.

ah but men can lie, God doesn't, and I hope for your sake the Loylist don't find out where you or your family live or find out if that is your real name or not, maybe it isn't.

but then who is to say that you're lying

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:26 AM

oh just one final thing, that there will never be peace in Ireland when you have dickheads like you

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:28 AM

still you haven't answered the question he the IRA destroyed their weapons, as I say all humans on this planet lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:57 AM

Hey people - How can we expect peace in the province if we can't achieve it here? No need for insults from either side of the debate please. If you cannot be civil then please say nothing!

Interesting points about Sinn Fein changing their stance. Now, where else have I seen that recently. Let me see, Hmmmm, Ah - New Labour! That's it. The trouble is with political parties is that is what they do. Anything to gain power. And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in:-(

I also think it is pretty much the case, as I said over a year ago, that no-one wants to take on these problems. Southern Ireland is basking in Euro culture, why would they want to take on these problems? England certainly don't want to rule a province that costs more to police than anywhere else. Maybe self governance is the answer?

As to encouraging the British government to get the Unionist parties to disarm - Many of us have already tried Comrac. I did not get a reply from my MP, but neither did I expect one. Where gangs of criminals from all parts of the UK can carry arms with impunity why do you think that Whitehall will teat the criminals in the north of Ireland any diferetly?

Now, do we have a picture of what the peace is like yet? Tentative to say the least? What is anyone doing about it?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

well I'll be civil and say thasme of the things that I said were wrong, but as I said that the IRA haven't any proof only hearsay, so why can't people not give a simple answer to that, I mean it doesn't take someone either with a camera or cine camera to take photies/flim of the procceddings does it, I mean until ALL terrorists groups in not only Ireland but all over the world we can't be certain that this really took place, I mean I can turn around a say that I jumped over the moon or I have swim the English channel, and just because some person says 'aye I was there went it happened. you just can't believe it.

I'm not saying that they didn't/did destory their weapons but until there is soild proof, I take that staement with a pinch of salt.

that's all

Tom Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:29 PM

'so-called republicans '

that's an unworthy smear. Gerry Adams and his like donated the best years of their youth to internmant camps like Long Kesh.

I am sorry to hear that they are not widely respected amongst Republicans. English people feel bitter about all the stuff that went down when he was whatever he was for the provisional IRA. so he would seem to be enjoying the worst of both worlds.

Whilst I am sure that there are so called protestant Loyalists quite as intractable and unpleasant as you say, I have met several whilst running folk clubs and giving guitar lessons who have been really nice guys. the nice guys must be in there somewhere, on both sides - and they should make the agreements, then send the arseholes packing.

A United Ireland is something worth trying for. perhaps thats what they should call the new country, in remembrance of all the ones who never got to see it:-

United Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:05 PM

Or the "Irish Union"

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM

Just for a moment imagine you felt in your heart you were prepared to take uparms for what you believe in.

Everyone in the community you live supports this cause. You open the Republican News and Sinn Fein tells you what has been going on in every nationalist community in the North of Ireland and how British occupation is wrong and it's police force are responsible for murder in nationalist areas and the unionist stormont government must be smashed.

You are 22 years of age and become involved. You receive a prison sentence of 16 years. You join the dirty protest to obtain Political Status in the H blocks. You don't leave your cell for five years (you receive no visits from friends or family).

That was a long time ago, you gave your youth, your freedom and a relationship to that cause you believed in. Now Sinn Fein don't want to know you, they call you a dinosaur. They have become part of the very system you fought against and they admired you for, they now sit on a British policing board and tell nationalists to welcome these police officers into your life, even join them.

Yes the very same police officers that held you for seven days and tortured you into signing a confession for things you had nothing to do with, (the word of two senior officers was enough to give you seven years for membership.How can you support these very same officers who searched your home, Spat on your childs pillow, passed a happy 30 minutes together searching your daughters bedrooms while they were present and not allowed to leave, and called them and your wife whores.

Sinn Fein don't want ex-prisoners in the party,they want "clean skins", great to see young people with degrees doing well for themselves in the party, but they are not republicans, and have no idea of recent history.

Peace will come to Ireland, but it will come through a united Europe with token borders, not at the hands of the British, or their "puppets in power" British Sinn Fein.

The fight is not out of the Irish nation, it's like a long term relationship you have been in and just found out the person you thought you knew and trusted,turned out to be a lying, cheating bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

Comrac, do you want another generation going through what you suffered? Sinn Fein are not the British puppets in power, they are in fact distrusted and disliked by the English - apart from the very unelectable left wing elements of the English system.

I suspect SF is making the deals it feels it has to make - the best it can make. Exploring the situation and, wresting as much power as the interstices of the system offer. And there many such interstices in any democratic system.

In truth, was the armed struggle doing anything except screw up peoples lives?

The first time in England we knew that SF represented more than a small outlaw element (that's what the media told us) was when Bobby Sands won that election. There was no arguing with the results of the democratic process.

Democratic process proves the point much more potently than the bomb and the bullet.

Life is a disillusioning business. I gave most of my life to trying to find some small place in English folk music. Folk music rampant is stuff that people don't watch on BBC2, BBC4, or listen to very much. Dance tunes that people don't dance to. Songs with tunes that no one in the street knows, with choruses that bore more thoroughly than the bloody boring verses.

My struggle was a failure. It cost me much more than I can ever admit - moneywise, relationship wise, family wise, every bleeding which way.... at least you seem to have a movement with members you can relate to.

If you take up arms, theres no guarantee of winning. That's where bravery comes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM

Logic in your words WLD. At least our folk music won't let us down !

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

Sorry to hear what you went through, Comrac. My Dad and his family came here from Poland after WW2. His parents were Zachary Polakow, from Kropotkin in Russia and Elizabeth Federow from Bialystok in Poland. They lived in Russia when my Dad and his younger sister were born. then, during one of Stalins purges, my grandad Zachary was interened in a prison camp for being a Russian Orthodox priest.

Grandma Elizabeth was evicted from the house and told, as a foreign national, to leave Russia with not a penny to her name, a young son and a baby daughter. She made her way back to Poland, living off what she could find and sleeping in hegerows at night. They were eventualy reunited when Zachary was freed and joined her in Bialystok.

Then came the Germans. They destroyed most of the city and turned where they lived into a gheto for Jews and dissidents. They somehow survived that until Rusia changed sides and threatened to annexe eastern Poland. Caught between two evils they could do nothing but leave their home, land and families to start a new life, first in Italy and then in England.

The war that cost them everything was as a result of politics. The stupidity of politicians. Maybe even the idea of a united Europe with token borders? Did they blame anyone? The Russians? The Germans? Funily enough, no. They made a good life here. Zachary died of a lung disiese, possibly brought on by conditions in the Soviet labour camp, in 1964. Elizabeth lived until she was well into her 80s and loved England as her home. My Dad is, thankfully, still with us at 85 and has the most optimistic attitude I have seen on anyone.

OK - The British did some awful things in Ireland. Don't forget it. You will never forget what happened to you. But until you can put it behind you, as millions before you have, and look to the future instead, what chance is there of peace? As for Sinn Fein. Well, they are politicians. A very easy scapegoat and one whom I suspect have done more good than you will ever admit to. Why replace the politicians who are local to you and did fight for your rights with a beurocratic and distant European model? Like I said before, whoever you vote for the government always gets in.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

Interesting and well written account there David el Gnomo, thanks for sharing with us. After reading it the words of my old man came into my head, "There is always someone worse off than yourself".

It is hard to believe what those people went through during the European war, and even worse to think it happened in living memory.

Old men start them, young men die in them.

Good nght and have a great week.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

That is the differance between Scotland and Northern Ireland, I vote for a party that wants Scottish Freedom from Westminster, but unlike NI we theSNP don't want any weapons involoved, because we have seen the things that were going on in NI.

weapons out of politics

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:03 PM

Thank you, Comrac. Hope it helps to bring you peace. If everything else fails, rely on hope!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:31 AM

A report from Queen's University, Belfast.
The author of the report, Professor Orla Muldoon, from the University of Limerick, said some things had remained the same.

"As you might expect, Catholics in Northern Ireland are more likely to describe themselves as being Irish, while Protestants are more likely to describe themselves as British," she said.

Almost two-thirds of those who responded to the survey identified themselves as either British Protestants or Irish Catholics, she said.

"There was, however, an increase in the number of people who identified themselves as being Northern Irish, with around one in four opting for this label, compared to around one fifth in previous surveys," she added.

Within the Northern Irish group, about a third described themselves as being equally British and Irish.

"They did not see Britishness or Irishness as being mutually exclusive and rejected the notion that these identities are opposites.

"That indicates a shift away from the traditional national and religious identities that underpinned the Troubles," she said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7760240.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:22 AM

"Sinn Fein are not the British puppets in power, they are in fact distrusted and disliked by the English - apart from the very unelectable left wing elements of the English system."

I'm not so sure about this - Mo Mowlem certainly didn't distrust or dislike SF and I'm not sure everyone in England thinks like this (speaking as a member of the unelectable left). Truth is, here in England we've been on the arse end of a 30-year propaganda campaign and a large number of people don't see the other side of the story (and until I came here and met people like Divis neither did I).

What happened in the North was a war; I've known people from both sides of the conflict and there is no doubt that's how it was viewed. Building peace means talking to people whom you might not ordinarily have wanted to even look at, but there it is.

Comrac: Take some heart that I think your story is beginning to get through to the British public at large. Recent films and articles in the papers are beginning to tell a side of the story people have not been able to engage with before, and this process will continue as the years progress. Now is the time for a peaceful route to a united Ireland, best of luck in achieving it. It will happen eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:01 AM

Thanks stigweard.

There still remains a number of things that need addressed and are being ignored. This week we saw a number of primed bombs discovered in a loyalist area. The police said they belonged to a Loyalist paramilitary group.

The first minister is yet to put pressure on loyalist paramilitary groups to disarm. Unionists just put the boot into republicans. I think it is safe to say Sinn Fein are now out of the equation as republicans. No one can believe how they were so manipulated over the past few years.

Divide and conquer is what I call it. British Sinn Fein are being pressed at every corner and folding to every demand of unionism. Yes people are moving on, but to see Sinn Fein slap the backs of their buddies on the policing board is hard to watch. Policing is still an issue. The Special Branch and Special Powers act are still in place and the memory of their deeds towards the nationalist community are still fresh in the minds of many in this community.

The world is changing, Korea and China are becoming world powers and Europe will at some point have to stand as one to compete. When this happens borders will fall. If people believe British Sinn Fein will ever fight to achieve unity of the island, they are misguided.

At the Anglo- Irish meetings in Dublin and Belfast it is no longer Westminster that speaks on behalf of British interests in Ireland, it´s British Sinn Fein. Well after all they pay their wages and they sit in a British Assembly.

British Sinn Fein are now being taken to task at community level by a new group called Eirigi. This group is democratic and although small in number I feel they are the only voice of Republicanism in Ireland today.

To be honest, many have been sickened by the approach taken by British Sinn Fein and simply don´t care anymore. Just for a moment imagine the Labour Party in Britain turned it´s back on every principal it once stood for and implemented the policies of the BNP. That is what it amounts to.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

Well Comrac, while I agree wholeheartedly that Ireland should be united, I would like to know your answer to this question.
If the UK and all it's appendages and institutions left the 6 counties tomorrow, what would happen?

John 'XG'

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:46 AM

Comrac, are these the loyalist bombs you refer to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7761981.stm
Nasty, but hardly comparable with the large roadside IEDs that have been planted to try to murder police officers.
You are scathing of Sinn Fein and hopeful for the new group that you say is democratic, but will they be a challenge to Sinn Fein in a ballot?
Do the wishes of the majority matter to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:55 AM

Ah Keith, you are on a slippery slope there mate. If the wishes of the majority had really mattered to the British governments, Northern Ireland would not have come into being.
Irish Home Rule, 1867-1921

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:26 AM

That is the trouble John.
Try to talk about the wants and needs of people trying to live their lives right now, and someone immediately harks back to events of a hundred years ago!

Since you bring it up, back then Sinn Fein, campaigning for home rule, could hardly get a vote and not even enough support to remain solvent.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:23 AM

Yes and I stand by it.
I made Oakville tell the truth, except that the real Oakville felt no shame for the lies he told.
When the victim of a lying attack by a Guest, why should I not fight back when the mods did nothing?
Presumably you support the lying Oakville.
Tell us why.
(Please delete along with troll)

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:31 AM

Sorry Keith A I don´t compare bombs, why are you saying the Loyalist ones are acceptable ?

I see you are in Hertford, England. So possibly you understand then that loyalists have worked with your Crown forces in Ireland, north and south in murdering people for their faith.

Maybe that is why your government is in no hurry to put the screws on them to disarm. Sorry I cannot speak for eirigi, so I have no idea what their plans are.

You ask "Do the wishes of the majority matter to you?"
I ask you, are you saying because I would like to see unity in Ireland and the end of British rule that I am not entitled to an opinion ?

I see from your previous posts you defend the role of your government in Ireland and support the military role and defend them. Not knocking you mate, that is your prerogative.

Faults can be found in both our nations, but you guys had the rule of law on your side (your law) and what they done to the Irish nation over 800 years is shameful. Your nation supported the Free French during the 39-45 war, were they terrorists or freedom fighters ?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:47 AM

As to what's allowed and what isn't, any single Guest can create and post under as many names as he wishes using the prefix Guest, so I can hardly see why a member cannot ditch his "cookie" and do exactly the same posting as a Guest. I also though that merely posting as GUEST was no longer allowed, but there you go, you've slipped through that particular net.

As to content of the post dear GUEST:

"Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts."

I think on examination you will find that statement is perfectly true, and it basically remains to be equally true whether it was written and posted by Keith A of Hertford aka "GUEST, Oakville"; or GUEST aka GUEST, "select whatever" aka "GUEST, Oakville.

"I take it back."

Now I do believe that if the poster Keith A of Hertford aka "GUEST, Oakville" discovered that he had posted something that was untrue and completely in error he would apologise and say exactly that. From the absence of a response from GUEST, aka "GUEST, select whatever" aka "GUEST, Oakville" providing an example of "Keith's" posts containing bigotry or slurs, we know that they would not even dream of doing such a thing, preferring instead to just morph into another GUEST identity and let his lies and slanders stand.

"I am ashamed."

Now I do believe that if the poster Keith A of Hertford aka "GUEST, Oakville" discovered that he had wrongfully accused somebody of something that they had in fact not done, he would feel sufficiently ashamed enough of his conduct to publicly apologise. GUEST aka "GUEST, select whatever" aka "GUEST, Oakville", on the other hand wouldn't know shame if it smacked him upside of the head with an 18lb sledge-hammer.

I do believe that Keith A of Hertford did fully explain why he posted as he did. Oh and by the bye GUEST aka "GUEST, select whatever" aka "GUEST, Oakville", you still haven't had the guts or honesty to admit that you made a mistake - begone and good riddance to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:12 AM

Terrorist bombs are terrorist bombs, plain and simple, they mostly target the innocent as the statistics from Northern Ireland plainly show.

British, or Irish Governments not putting pressure on the "Loyalist" paramilitary groups to disarm?? I can't remember them putting any pressure on the "Republican" paramilitary groups to disarm either. What we got were statements of intention and then they took their own sweet time about it. I note that Guest Comrac does not mention CIRA, or RIRA, who are still armed and active on the "Republican" side of the equation.

As for:

"You ask "Do the wishes of the majority matter to you?"
I ask you, are you saying because I would like to see unity in Ireland and the end of British rule that I am not entitled to an opinion ?

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but that opinion doesn't then give anyone the right to justify and advocate the instigation of a bombing campaign against innocent civilians in order to change their minds.

Fact Ireland will be united when the majority of the people of Northern Ireland vote for it. When asked at the time of the GFA referendum if violence had a place in politics in Ireland the referendum taken throughout the whole of the island of Ireland came back with a resounding NO.

Now I don't know what that suggests to you Guest Comrac but the one thing it most certainly is not is a mandate for any paramilitaries "Loyalist" or "Republican".

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM

Comrac, may I reply to each point.

"Sorry Keith A I don´t compare bombs, why are you saying the Loyalist ones are acceptable ?"
I said they were nasty, not acceptable. But unlike you, I consider the bombs of both sides.

"I see you are in Hertford, England. So possibly you understand then that loyalists have worked with your Crown forces in Ireland, north and south in murdering people for their faith."
No.

"Maybe that is why your government is in no hurry to put the screws on them to disarm. Sorry I cannot speak for eirigi, so I have no idea what their plans are."
No challenge.

"You ask "Do the wishes of the majority matter to you?"
I ask you, are you saying because I would like to see unity in Ireland and the end of British rule that I am not entitled to an opinion ?"
Yes you are, but not to impose your will on an unwilling majority by force.

"I see from your previous posts you defend the role of your government in Ireland and support the military role and defend them. Not knocking you mate, that is your prerogative."
The military role was to counter the military action of paramilitaries.

"Faults can be found in both our nations, but you guys had the rule of law on your side (your law) and what they done to the Irish nation over 800 years is shameful. Your nation supported the Free French during the 39-45 war, were they terrorists or freedom fighters ?"
The Free French did not have the alternative of voting out the Natzis.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Little Englander
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

What if the Nationalists become the majority in Northern Ireland in the foreseeable future? The Unionists can re-draw the border around three counties where they will constitute a majority and declare that 'Ulster' [with the backing of the British army] will never surrender.   That should give us another century or two of strife to be going on with, and the Tories will still have a faint ghost of their empire to get puffed up about.

Little Englander

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,SW12
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves !
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts.
I take it back.
I am ashamed.

      This message appears to have been posted by Keith A of Hertford. That's not allowed, Keith - and you damn well know it.
      -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,SW12
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 02:27 PM

Yes I see Keith admits to underhand tactics on threads to create trouble, very underhand, very British Keith. Who are you tonight Keith or Oakville ?

Keith did you not read the Stevens Report which provided the first official acknowledgement
of collusion between loyalist armed groups and British security forces in the murders
of nationalists in Northern Ireland ?

Such collusion and
associated conspiracies have been a central feature of the British response to the
conflict in Ireland for more than thirty years. It
amounts to a Holy War, or Jihad, in the name of Protestantism and the British monarchy.

That war has been swathed in secrecy and denial, protected by notions of 'national security'
that pervade every corner of the legal system and the political establishment ­ a very British Jihad.

As well as Keith, we see the crazed Teribus ride in to this thread. I see Teribus attacked the good people of Balham on this site. Well buddy, I live in the South West of London and we en't too keen on old Tars either, we saw enough of their antics, 80% of sailors or Royal Marines are considered to have made advances towards other males. So Teribus, I won't be giving you my email address, so you can bring a tear to someother poor sods eye.

Solicitor Pat Finucane was murdered by loyalists operating with the assistance of British military intelligence.Teribus more or less agreed with this when he was boasting about observing torture tactics in Ulster while serving over there.

What about the British agent and UDA intelligence officer Brian Nelson Keith ? Nelson's
diary revealed was that British military intelligence and covert units, including the Force Research Unit
and 14th Intelligence, were intimately involved with loyalist armed groups. These groups had been
equipped with armaments sourced in South Africa and smuggled into Northern Ireland with the full
knowledge of MI5.



links between soldiers, police officers and loyalist gunmen, RUC cover-ups and the notorious
Portadown based 'ratpack' led by 'king rat' Billy Wright.

Keith/Oakville, whatever you would like to be called tonight, what is special investigation
into the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, read up on it.

Teribus, maybe you should investigate the unsavoury
relationships between the intelligence agencies, politicians, the police, the British Army and loyalism instead of verbal attacks on the honest hard working folk in Balham.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,SW12
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 02:34 PM

I think this is about as low as a person can go.

Keith was beat fair and square by a respected vistor to this site a chappie called Oakville. Keith was advised by a jolly good bunch of chaps to give consideration to accepting defeat in a particular debate. No such luck, cheeky Keith took on the unsportsmanly role of letting on he was this Oakville chap and and began to write posts under his name. Pretty bad show I say. I see it hasn't been the first time Keith has done this. Pretty darn low I'd say, pretty darn low.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves !
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts.
I take it back.
I am ashamed.

      This message appears to have been posted by Keith A of Hertford. That's not allowed, Keith - and you damn well know it.
      -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 02:47 PM

why Joe, its simplicity itself.

There is Keith.
He has a glove puppet called Oakville.
He has another called Guest SW12.
After an acerbic dialogue, Oakville and Guest SW12 agree that Keith is a pretty good chap and has basically sound ideas on the subject of Ireland.

Hope this clarifies things for you. I realise that politics over here can seem a bit complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,London Irish
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 03:17 PM

Not as complex as this guy Keith. Why does he which to mimic other people who post here ? Bit sad really. And why is this other guy attacking the people of Balham London SW. Come on pal, the people in Balham are as British as they come, Best of British getting verbals from Teribus, blow me down my old sparrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:06 PM

Balham - gateway to the south.....

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Sing-Along Steve
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

It saddens me to read people referring to such a place as "Northern Ireland", as if it were a separate place and not the north OF Ireland, which it is.

People are talking about terrorist bombs being terrorist bombs, no matter what...

Let me ask you: If you had a rapist or murderer in your house who somehow managed to secret himself in the house in such a way as to be very difficult to root out, would YOU allow yourself to be called a terrorist if you finally just dynamited the bastard out?

Didn't think so.

Why, then, are the people of Ireland made to accept the rule of an invader, no matter how long that invader may have been there?

The answer I would give to an intruder, especially one who sought to retain control over my person and goods by force, would be, "get the fuck out", whether I was saying to them 5 seconds or 100 years after their arrival.

I agree that there are more peaceable ways to end the conflict than bombs and guns, but there are no ways at all to end the conflict without ridding the NATION OF IRELAND, the WHOLE beautiful nation, of its problem: occupation by a hostile force.

When boyhood's fire was in my blood
I read of ancient freemen,
For Greece and Rome who bravely stood,
Three hundred men and three men;
And then I prayed I yet might see
Our fetters rent in twain,
And Ireland, long a province, be.
A Nation once again!

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:04 AM

some mothers don't arf 'ave 'em.

Seriously! what a complete singalong braindead bumhole!

I find that post so stupid, so offensive, so lacking in compassion for every party.

Piss off! and set dynamite off in your own house - see how you like it, and the effects of it.

You obviously live nowhere where such things have happened, wankalong willy!

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM

Sigh:-(

One more time now...

As long as people keep dredging up the past what chance has this war torn area got?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 02:29 PM

Re me imitating Oakville.
Yes and I stand by it.
I made Oakville tell the truth, except that the real Oakville felt no shame for the lies he told.
When the victim of a lying attack by a Guest, why should I not fight back when the mods did nothing?
Presumably you support the lying Oakville.
Tell us why.
The thread is here in case anyone wants to look and see who was debating and who lying.
thread.cfm?threadid=113936&messages=92
And now you are telling lies about Terribus. Balham? Can you produce this post?
No.
Telling lies in a debate destroys your credibility. You are not helping your case.
If you want me to respond, just make your points without the nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 03:34 PM

I said I will repond to points put without personal attacks, but only if they are relevant to the current peace process.
If they are dredging up events from the troubles of bygone centuries, you will have to use a different thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

I wish only to tell the truth, sadly I can no trust you as fly boy Keith has ruined this and many other threads by playing dirty. Keith why oh why did you do this, I lost all respect for you and can no longer trust you.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 04:12 PM

Keith, I think it fair to warn you - you have lost us all!

The thing about Oakville, he was never quite as good after leaving Keith Harris.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM

So we have Guest Oakville, who is also Guest London Irish, who is also Guest SW12, who is also Guest Little Englander.

Balham?? When have I EVER posted ANYTHING about Balham - Now come along, take a big dose of Methadone, toddle down to the British Government sponsored Portacabin with its charity computers, do as much research as your addled brains will allow and come back with a reference to this supposed post of mine about Balham.

---

I think that is quite enough. The impersonation matter happened in September. To have it copy-pasted over and over again into December is uncalled for. Thread closed, and any further discussion of this particular argument will be deleted. Stick to the facts, and stop the personal attacks.
Oh, and those of you who insist on using multiple identities may find yourself blocked or deleted.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

One final note from David el Gnomo, received 8 December, 2008:

"This thread was started, by me, in the hope that peace talks in the North of Ireland would be better understood. I am very disappointed that it degenerated into a slanging match which neither helped that process nor helped people outside the province understand what is going on there. To dredge up old arguments about the troubles is bad enough. To use the thread to prolong old arguments on Mudcat is cynical in the extreme and unforgivable. I hope those concerned are ashamed of themselves. Dave."