ukulele to replace recorder

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:31 PM

and just maybe I should tell Robbie Robertson to stop playing electric guitar and singing whiteman's music...Robbie for those who don't know is,like me, half and half.Mohawk and white.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:16 AM

check my myspace Top Friends for a start.
Some of those "friends" are dead, WAV--

I'd expect most of them to be undead.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:05 PM

I dunno. I've sorted through a lot of relatively inexpensive ukulele's, and generally found that if you want to find one with good intonation, you have to spend a fairly substantial amount of money.

Also, I'm sorry to say so, but just learning to play chords may be part of it, but it's not really "learning music."

####

My great grandparents on my father's side came from Scotland (Orkney, to be precise) and my grandparents on my mother's side came from Sweden. I was born in California, have lived all but my first nine years in Washington State, lived in big cities, grew up listening to pop, classic, and jazz on the radio and got interested in American and British Isles folk songs and ballads while I was in college.

Although I've seen and heard Native American chanting, drumming, and dancing in movies and on television a couple of times, the only time I have ever seen and heard it live was once, and the people doing it were a young non-Native American anthropology professor and his half-Native American wife doing a demonstration at a folk arts festival.

And yet, there is someone on this thread who has told me several times on other threads that I should not be singing the songs I sing. I should be doing "Amerindian chanting and drumming," because, as an American, he tells me, this is my true cultural heritage.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:23 PM

obsessive narrow minded 'holier than thou' xenophobes
who constantly insist on preaching 'who you are'
and what your cultural identity
'should be'
are usually complete w@nkers !!!


..and George Formby was a bloody amazing Uke player..

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM

Good to read a post of yours again, Don - it's been a while.

Maybe, as with Aboriginal Australian, much Amerindian music and dance is NOT seen and heard due its sacred nature...?

And, not sure who you're referring to in the last paragraph, but, when pushed, I answered that if I was in America, or Aus., I'd probably be trying to perform rock along the lines of Crowded House, Bon Jovi, sort of thing - rather than indigenous music (which, when it is available, I do like listening to/seeing; and, hence, have presented for others on my myspace profile, above).

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 05:31 PM

I suppose anything is good, as long as the instruments are kept in good condition and there are teachers who know how to teach the children to play them.

When I was in elementary school, there was a music program in which a child could learn to play nearly any orchestral instrument. Children couldn't start on a saxophone, but they could later switch to one if they learned the clarinet first. I don't think piano was part of the curriculum, but _every_ schoolroom had a piano in it.

On the face of it, it sounds great, but there were a few catches. The program had existed for a few years already, and by my time, the instruments were all somewhat worse for wear. I had a cornet, but I didn't stick with it for more than a couple of weeks. I didn't like the (group) instruction at all. The whole program was designed to train children to play in the various musical groups; orchestra, marching band, jazz band, etc. This was also true in high school, where I briefly took oboe lessons.

In junior high school, I played the piano in the "stage band" (junior high kids apparently didn't play "jazz"). I was pretty lousy, in contrast to the boy who had played the year before and had graduated, who was quite good and was already playing the organ in local churches. It all seemed to be centered around contests. Musically, it did nothing for me, except for the unforgettable experience of dying on stage when I was supposed to improvise a solo (something I no more could have done than fly to the moon).

The man, now deceased, who ran the program for the elementary and the junior high schools in my hometown, and put a lot of work into it, was mentioned on the radio here in Germany not too long ago. It was in a jazz program where they interviewed a professional musician who came from my hometown. I suppose he was on tour here. I know that quite a few people from there went on to study music and I suppose a reasonable number have become professional musicians.

In high school, it went more or less according to the same pattern. I wanted to play the oboe, but the oboe they had was cracked and couldn't be repaired, or they didn't want to pay for it. They wanted me to play the bassoon instead, because they already had oboists and wanted bassoonists for the orchestra. However, I wanted to play the oboe and didn't want to play the bassoon. I still feel that way.

I'm sure it was great for some kids, but it wasn't for me. I'm sure a lot of other kids were turned off, too. From both a pedagogical and a musical point of view, I think it was a bad approach.

In Germany, they don't have that. Recorders are very big here. I don't know; I've got mixed feelings about it. It seems a bit monotonous to me to have everyone play the recorder. Same with ukelele, though I like the idea of hordes of British schoolchildren singing "When I'm Cleaning Windows" and "With Me Little Stick of Blackpool Rock".

I've never really liked organized group activities. It seems to me there ought to be a better way of teaching music to children, but I don't have a patent answer, either.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Tangledwood
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

that if I was in America, or Aus., I'd probably be trying to perform rock along the lines of Crowded House, Bon Jovi, sort of thing - rather than indigenous music

At a recent indigenous music festival here the profiles in the program include the bands influences. Ones that keep appearing are: indie, urban roots, r&b, funk, reggae, soul, jazz fusion.
Yeah, that sounds like Australian indigenous music. :(

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:35 PM

David, I got it from a genuine Native American, a member of one of the Northwest tribes whom I met at a science fiction convention. Other than a certain ruddiness of complexion, I would not have known his ethnic background if he hadn't mentioned it. He was an anthropologist by profession, a fan of science fiction, and an aspiring writer of science fiction. By the way, he had no objection to being referred to as an "Indian." He was amused by the fact that the sobriquet was probably first given by a European (Columbus) who didn't know when he set out where he was going, when he got there he didn't know where he was, and when he got back, he didn't know where he had been.

Anyway, he said that most chanting, dancing, and drumming is considered part of their tribal spiritual or religious ceremonies and they don't like non-Indians doing it when they don't understand it and it is not within its proper ceremonial context. Nor do they like it to be recorded and played outside of that context.

So, out of respect for Native American culture, non-Native Americans should leave it alone.

Besides, as I said, in addition to being an American and the descendant of Scottish and Swedish immigrants, most of the songs I sing are also immigrants. I sing many English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh songs and ballads. I also sing many "American" songs, which were brought over by Europeans settling in America and that varied over time and transmission by "the folk process"—along with songs written here by and about mountaineers, miners, loggers, not to mention courting songs, love songs, et al.

Since this is what many of my friends such as Bob "Deckman" Nelson, Nancy Quensé, Stewart Hendrickson, Reggie Miles, Judy Flenniken, and others also sing, this, to me is "indigenous music."

I hear a lot of music on the radio or television (Bon Jovi, The Tragically Hip, Clint Black, The Metropolitan Opera, The Chicago Symphony, P. D. Q. Bach) that, although I may enjoy listening to it, I do not care to perform it myself.

People make their own culture, which, if it's a living culture,, keeps varying all the time. To insist that people conform to arbitrary cultural norms will surely kill a culture.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:11 AM

Wise words from Don, David.

We've had our to-ing and fro-ing in other threads about your musical philosophy. But, in all the post that you've put up in said threads, I can never recollect one where you comment on the fact that music is there to be enjoyed.

As far as I'm concerned, music flows in through the ears to the heart and, if it's the "right sort" of music - whatever that may be at the time - it strikes a chord, rings a bell, etc. (pick your own cliché...). Music is not a political or philosophical construct - it's an art form that appeals to the senses and, being so, has no boundaries - and is not subject to a cultural hegemony. If it were so, then we'd be back in Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, or in any other period when the arts were subject to political dictatorship. I can listen with equal enthusiasm to the Dransfield brothers singing "The Rout Of The Blues" and to the Reverend Horton Heat belting out "It goes real fast and it feels real good" in true psychobilly style. And why not?

Tell me: supposing that your vision of England came true, and all schools taught just "English" music on "English" instruments, and that all folk clubs allowed only "English" stuff to be performed in them - how would that make England better? (and what's "English", by the way?). How would that improve the mood of the nation? What's inherently "better" about that state of affairs? Why is it better for me, for example, that I should only listen to the music of English composers when I'm moved beyond measure by Janacek's string quartets, or Japanese koto music?

If you can answer those questions logically, with reason and without recourse to the stuff on your website, then I'd be very interested to listen.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 08:41 AM

Will: from your post, we both "listen" to and have "enjoyed" diverse music from our multicultural world - and, to keep it that way, school kids should be encouraged to perform/practice their own music, whilst appreciating that of others.

Piers - I understand the recorder in Germany has slightly different holes/fingering...what is it usually called there?...it can't be the German-flute as that's another name for a transverse-flute...is it "block flute"?

"At a recent indigenous music festival here the profiles in the program include the bands influences. Ones that keep appearing are: indie, urban roots, r&b, funk, reggae, soul, jazz fusion.
Yeah, that sounds like Australian indigenous music. :(" (TW)...so what do you call sicks, chants and didgeridoo..."trad. Aboriginal music"?

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 08:49 AM

No answer, as usual, David. End of conversation. If you can't explain to me why people shouldn't play what they want to for musical, as opposed to ideological reasons - there's no hope for you, cock!

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 08:59 AM

what David seeks would be possible with the Northumbrian Pipes,but it is only one style of English Traditional music,and is not racially pure,as it has been influenced by Scottish Music [Shock Horror].
personally,I am just glad to see children playing music.
I am not sure whether ukeleles are better than recorders,I can see advantages and disadvantages to both.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Eve Goldberg
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:17 AM

Getting back to the ukulele, there are a bunch of reasons why the ukulele is actually a great instrument to teach in schools:

- they are relatively cheap, compared to many other instruments
- they are small and playable by small hands
- they are incredibly versatile instruments, suitable for many styles of music
- you can play rhythm or melody on them
- you can quickly get a group playing together, even if players are at different levels.

Someone above referred to Chalmers Doane's pioneering school programs in the 60's and 70's. Chalmers is now working with uke virtuoso James Hill to revamp the learning materials and start introducing them in the classroom. I just went to a workshop for teachers a few months ago, led by James. I have the first two books in the "Ukulele in the Classroom" series, which is an excellent pedagogy for teaching sight reading, music theory, and playing technique, as well as building up a repertoire of interesting songs.

Here are a couple of links for those who are interested:

James Hill on YouTube


Ukulele In The Classroom Website

P.S. None of this is meant to slag the recorder, which also has many advantages as a teaching instrument.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:50 AM

The other thing ukuleles and recorders have both got going for them is that you can combine them - they have similar power levels and complementary ranges. They don't have to be exclusive options.

The last time I played along with a George Formby number on the uke was a few months ago at Kelso. I can't remember if I used the saxophone or the washboard.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 01:51 PM

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 08:41 AM

'Piers - I understand the recorder in Germany has slightly different holes/fingering...what is it usually called there?...it can't be the German-flute as that's another name for a transverse-flute...is it "block flute"?'

The word for recorder in German is "Blockfloete" (or "Blockflöte", if the o-umlaut displays on your terminal correctly). The word for a transverse flute is "Querfloete", which means just that, i.e., transverse flute. The popularity of the recorder in Germany is such that "Floete" alone is often interpreted to mean recorder rather than transverse flute.

There is German fingering on the one hand and Baroque or English fingering on the other. German fingering was based on a misunderstanding of how some historical recorder or recorders were meant to work. It is minimally easily to finger than Baroque fingering so it has established itself in German elementary schools. This minimal simplification (mainly the fingering of the fourth interval from the fundamental tone in the low octave) comes at the cost of serious problems with the intonation.

The consensus is that German fingering was a terrible mistake and both Mollenhauer and Moeck (two German manufacturers of recorders) recommend that children start with Baroque fingering right away. However, once something has gotten established in the German school system, you need a crowbar to pry it loose. Both companies do make recorders in German fingering, though not the fancier models.

I believe that there are various other fingerings found on historical recorders and ones modelled after them, as well as modern recorders with an increased range (up to 3 octaves, I believe, and possibly even more).

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:47 PM

Thanks Piers; also, I saw a busker the other day with a wooden soprano/descant without the extra holes for C# and D# - I wonder how difficult the half-holing required to get them is..?

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:43 PM

You very rarely need those in folk music (or any other sort). And when you do, the double holes are no easier than halfholing and give you less control over the intonation - if you want those at all, chances are you will be playing music where D# and Eb are different.

Most of the recorders I use are either Renaissance types where the single hole is standard. I also use large sizes (tenor and greatbass) where it's more common to have a low C key but not a low C# one.

Getting a low C# on my sax is a pig - you need to push very hard on two of the biggest, clunkiest keys simultaneously with both little fingers. It obviously wasn't designed (back in 1922) with the expectation that you'd be doing it very often. Same goes for old simple-system clarinets; the "patent C sharp" mechanism came along quite late and my oldest clarinet doesn't have it.

I can think of only one commonly-played folk tune which has a sharp seventh at the bottom end of its range. Let's see if everyone else nominates the same one.

There is one truly appalling text used in British primary schools, "Abracadabra Recorder", which completely ignores the acoustic and ergonomic idiosyncrasies of the recorder and treats it as a surrogate keyboard. The authors throw in the low C# very early on, well before they've presented enough music to make the instrument interesting. The result is you're confronted with a physically very difficult manouevre with no discernible reward for it. That one pedagogical mistake must have had thousands of kids giving up on the spot.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 04:58 PM

"I can think of only one commonly-played folk tune which has a sharp seventh at the bottom end of its range. Let's see if everyone else nominates the same one." (Jack)...don't know - nothing in my E. trad. repertoire; but one hymn "O Jesus, I have promised" does.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:15 PM

Thanks for those links, Eve--as luck would have it, I have been looking for some material to start kids up, and this stuff looks really good--

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 03:41 AM

How about this?

Janet Klein

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: GUEST,Vicki Kelsey
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

I think there's liable to be a renewed interest in the ukelele in the upstate NY area, due to Del Rey appearing at both Cafe Lena and the PSG's Gottagetgon Festival this year. She fingerpicks a resonator uke, blues style-WOW! Not your Mother's ukelele.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:05 PM

All my recorders have double holes. I find the C#/Db and D#/Eb on the C recorders (and the corresponding notes on the F recorders) difficult to finger. Penny-whistles also require half-holing (depending on what you play), and I find it to be possible, but not easy.

In my opinion, as someone who hasn't been playing these instruments very long, the best solution is recorders, whistles, or flutes in general in different keys. Then one can figure out which is the best for a particular purpose. I think the limitation to C and F in commonly available recorders is a disadvantage; the situation with harmonicas is much better.

There was an accordeon festival here in Germany not too long ago, called "The Accordeonale", I believe, and there was a Rumanian accordeonist who played a diatonic accordeon. She was _great_. One of these days, I'll have to try to find her name.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM

They broadcast a little of it on the radio here; I wasn't there.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:27 AM

In my opinion, as someone who hasn't been playing these instruments very long, the best solution is recorders, whistles, or flutes in general in different keys. Then one can figure out which is the best for a particular purpose. I think the limitation to C and F in commonly available recorders is a disadvantage; the situation with harmonicas is much better.

I use G ones more than any other, C next, F rather rarely. The G is a good fit to the scale of the Highland pipes (transposed to concert A, as pipe tunes are usually played in sessions and by dance bands) - your fingers are often in the same place for the same note as the piper's would be on the chanter.

Unfortunately you don't have many options with G recorders. Susato make altos and sopraninos (actually whistles with the fingerholes drilled in different places) and call them "Renaissance" recorders. They aren't - no recorder ever had a parallel bore. And they don't perform at the extreme top end any better than other parallel-bore whistles, but for pipe tunes they work fine. (I use the sopranino for one tune in particular - "The Hen's March to the Midden", with flutter-tongued chicken noises). They're priced above what schools would want to pay, but at a level where most folkies could afford one.

For wider-range music and a more recorder-like sound you have to spend money. I have a Mollenhauer renaissance G alto modelled after Kynseker which is great for fiddle slow airs, and a very old Hopf renaissance G sopranino made (probably to special order) for Michael Copley of the Cambridge Buskers (he used to blow it with his nose as part of the act). There are several other models of G alto on the market but nothing under 200 quid; G sopraninos have to be hand-made to special order. And nobody makes Baroque G altos except by hand for serious money. There used to be G basses made for German schools - I've never seen one.

Back in the 20s, there was an attempt to use recorders in D and A in Germany. Hindemith's "Plöner Muziktag" trio is written for those. I have an A "sopralto" from that time; it sounds great but I rarely find a use for it. Rather more easily available are descant recorders in B (i.e. C descants made to a low pitch standard). I've got one, made of transparent purple plastic with embedded aluminium glittery bits. If you look round charity shops you might well find one like that. It has exactly the same external dimensions as a normal C descant, the low pitch has been achieved by a different bore profile. It works fine for playing along with singers who capo on the first fret. Surprisingly, it's actually in tune with itself and sounds like a good school plastic descant.

Küng used to make a soprano in B flat (the "Folklora"). It was shit.

But yes, harmonica players have it easier.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:34 AM

Surely, the advantage of the recorder over the uke comes when you come across someone who really does not like your playing and decides to do something nasty with the instrument!

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:55 AM

I've been meaning to take a look through my Mollenhauer and Moeck catalogues. I think they may sell recorders in D, but I'm pretty sure not in the school grades. It's really only the beginners' recorders and the plastic ones that are especially cheap.

The problem I have with diatonic harmonicas is that I really don't like the missing notes. Hohner has one model with a complete low octave, but only in C and I don't know whether the top octave is complete or not; probably not.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:58 AM

I purchased a ukelele today and I am going to learn how to play it..Oh dear how dreadfully un-English of me *LOL*

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM

piers .there are diatonic harmoincas that have the missing note,there is one called a [melody maker] lee oskar, youyhave to plat as if in crossharp position, and there are others as well.
contact Steve Shaw

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:28 PM

Don't know the details, but I'm sure there are fully chromatic harmonicas, with a slide system, pressed on one end.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:30 PM

Oh and Indians are from India, NOT North America...get used to it.

Christopher Columbus discovered nothing, except that he'd gotten himself lost....

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:01 PM

The great advantage of recorders is that they are fully chromatic, though as usual some keys are easier to play in than others.

For folk music I usually play Mollenhauer dream recorders. They have standard Baroque fingering with the normal two+ octave range but with a wider bore - a bit more like a renaissance recorder - which gives them a little more power than a standard baroque recorder. They also have good tone - which many folk have commented on.

As to harmonicas, I use standard 10 hole diatonic harmonicas with the three blow reed tuned up a tone - this is known as "Paddy Richter" tuning and it gives you the missing 6th degree of the scale below the tonic. It also allows you to play the relative minor chord of the key the harmonica is in.

Paddy Richter tuning for a C diatonic harmonica is

  Hole: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
  Blow: C E A C E G C E G C
  Draw: D G B D F A B D F A
  

The retuned 3 blow note makes the normal 10 hole diatonic harmonica much more useful for folk music.

Geoff

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: meself
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:13 PM

Unless, of course, you want to play folk music as it has been traditionally played on the Richter-tuned diatonic harmonica. In which case, you will find the Richter-tuned diatonic harmonica much more useful.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:00 PM

Oh WAV, WAV, WAV...another useless diatrabe about multiculturism from you. Why don't you set up a BAN ALL INSTRUMENTS NOT ORIGINATING IN BRITAIN campaign. Just think about it...no more West Africans playing the kora, no more Bolivians blowing the kena, no more Irish playing those dratted fiddles, no more melodeons or accordions, no more dumbeks, pipa's, hurdy gurdy's, sitars, balafons, no more guitars, banjo's, mandolins, bodhrans. No more harmonica, cello, clarinets. Just the sweet sounds of recorders, English concertinas and citterns plucked with fucking feathers...being the only acceptable forms of instrument. But wait a minute. England isn't all about that is it? Where did Bhangra become popular? Oh wait, how about all that Caribbean music that is based in ENgland. If I'm not mistaken, didn't England have African colonies WAV? Haven't generations of families from Nigeria and Gambia been living in the UK longer than you have? Sorry, guess you have to leave that m'bira on the dock when you enter the UK for poor WAV. What's that you say WAV...oh thats ok, I heard you the first time....you said you like the world being multicultural, you just think English kids should learn on the recorder or cittern. Such a convenient proposition for all those multicultural English kids (the by product of colonization), whose own English culture has no resemblance whatsoever to a Thomas Hardy novel. Of course, how silly of me...yes, that 2nd generation family from Nigeria's kids should forget about listening to Fela and King SUnny Ade, of course...they should be learning Jerusalem on the recorder. How silly of me to forget that. After all anyone who sees that myspace is still a thriving community and hasn't let all those layoffs and dwindling memberships get in there way must of course be right. Note to viewers other than WAV-expect either no answer to this post or a one line answer with a direct link back to WAV's poetry, on his myspace page where you can learn about keeping the world all nice and multicultural, but with absolutely not cognitive rebuttal of this post. WAV is working diligently on a contraption that will allow him to toot his recorder while simultaneously pluck his cittern with a feather, while pumping away at his trusty concertina...er...keyboard. Pardon me WAV, I'm gonna go practice my GUITAR right now...look out Martin Car..er...Martin SImpso...er....Ralph Mc....um.....Nigel Tufnel!

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 04:09 AM

I recall there was a resurgence of interest in the recorder in schools some years ago because it was thought to help children with asthma to play a wind instrument - lung development.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:13 AM

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM

"piers .there are diatonic harmoincas that have the missing note,there is one called a [melody maker] lee oskar, youyhave to plat as if in crossharp position, and there are others as well.
contact Steve Shaw"

Thank you for the information, Captain Birdseye. I'll have to save it for a later date, because the exchequer doesn't currently permit investing in additional harmonicas, much as I would love to do so.


Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 12:28 PM

"Don't know the details, but I'm sure there are fully chromatic harmonicas, with a slide system, pressed on one end."

Yup, there are chromatic harmonicas and I've got one in C/C#. The tuning is similar to the lowest full octave in Richter tuning, except that all of the octaves are complete. I play mine a lot. It would be convenient to have more in other keys, because some keys are harder to play than others. It's particularly hard to play lots of draw notes one after the other.

My problem is that I like to play the harmonica and the guitar simultaneously and you can't do that with a chromatic, since it won't fit into the rack and you can't operate the slide.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: Tootler - PM
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:01 PM

"The great advantage of recorders is that they are fully chromatic, though as usual some keys are easier to play in than others."

Yes, indeed!

"For folk music I usually play Mollenhauer dream recorders. [...]"

This is what I chose for my recorder students. I had their parents buy the plastic ones because they're still quite young. They do sound good; better than my Aulos recorders, though I probably wouldn't buy one for myself. I would prefer a more penetrating sound, since I play solo (with or without accompaniment) rather than in an ensemble.

"As to harmonicas, I use standard 10 hole diatonic harmonicas with the three blow reed tuned up a tone - [...]"

How do you tune it up? I've seen that Hohner sells a set for repairing (and possibly modifying) harmonicas, but I haven't bought one.

Hohner sells an "Extreme Bending" Harmonica with standard Richter tuning, but with auxiliary reeds that are supposed to make it possible to play chromatically. I'd quite like to try one next time I have 99 Euros lying around. Has anyone here tried one? I wonder whether it's possible to play the "accidentals" without too much "bendiness".

Playing folk music isn't really that big a problem. Some songs can't be played or require some adjustment, but what I mostly play is popular music from the 1920's - 1940's and that's mostly not possible on Richter harmonicas.

Subject: RE: ukelele to replace recorder
From: GUEST,Neovo - PM
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 04:09 AM

"I recall there was a resurgence of interest in the recorder in schools some years ago because it was thought to help children with asthma to play a wind instrument - lung development."

I think this is a good idea. I have had respiratory problems in the past and I've noticed an improvement from playing wind instruments, especially the trumpet.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM

I've been wondering how you've been doing with that trumpet, Piers Plowman--have the neighbors called the police yet?;-)

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: meself
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:05 AM

'Hohner sells an "Extreme Bending" Harmonica with standard Richter tuning, but with auxiliary reeds that are supposed to make it possible to play chromatically. I'd quite like to try one next time I have 99 Euros lying around. Has anyone here tried one? I wonder whether it's possible to play the "accidentals" without too much "bendiness".'

Depends on two factors: your skill level, and your tolerance for "bendiness". If you are a "mid-level" player, and you have to play some fairly quick bends, they will sound "bendy" - but they will be going by quickly. The more accomplished a player you are, the less "bendy" the bent notes will sound (assuming you want them straight), but they're unlikely ever to sound as straight as they would on a chromatic.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM

"I've been wondering how you've been doing with that trumpet, Piers Plowman--have the neighbors called the police yet?;-)"

No, but I got a nasty letter from a company that my landlord employs to send nasty letters. One of my downstairs neighbours called to ask what the exact rules were about practicing and they turned that into "complaints about my constant trumpet-playing". This company bothers me about other things, too, and I've asked the lawyer from the renters' organization I belong to to send them a cease-and-desist letter.

I also got an anonymous letter from someone in the building complaining about my "artistry on the flute" (!) I don't pay attention to anonymous letters. Someone else asked me to play my "flute" more quietly, because she'd been injured in an accident and was trying to sleep. She said, otherwise she didn't find it so bad.

The neighbour who lives on the other side of the wall of the room where I practice is the nicest neighbour in the world. He told me it doesn't bother him and I could play from morning 'til night as far as he's concerned.

An elderly couple in my part of the building has bothered me a couple of times, but I've made it clear to them that I stick to the rules and I will continue playing. Considering the man has made a lot of noise with their various renovation and hobby projects, I think they have a lot of nerve complaining about my playing.

As far as the actual playing is concerned, I think I'm doing pretty well. I sometimes have "bad lip" days and I recently seemed to have slipped backwards a bit with respect to my intonation. However, yesterday was pretty good. I can get up to concert e''' or f''' most days when specifically practicing high notes and sometimes get concert f'' -- g'' accurately when playing songs. Jumps, of course, are difficult, and I run out of steam after about 1 - 2 hours. By and large, it's been one of the most fun things I've done in years and it's been good for my playing on my other instruments. Thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:43 PM

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: meself - PM
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:05 AM

'Depends on two factors: your skill level, and your tolerance for "bendiness". If you are a "mid-level" player, and you have to play some fairly quick bends, they will sound "bendy" - but they will be going by quickly. The more accomplished a player you are, the less "bendy" the bent notes will sound (assuming you want them straight), but they're unlikely ever to sound as straight as they would on a chromatic.'

Thank you, meself, that sounds logical. Have you got one? What's your opinion of them?

I think I play the harmonica pretty well but I'm no virtuoso (on any instrument). I certainly don't play as well as I could if I only played the harmonica. I have a very low tolerance for bendiness. It can be great in music where it's appropriate, but otherwise I want to hit the notes very cleanly and precisely.

It would really only be a compromise for me to allow me to play chromatically while playing the guitar. A much, much better solution would be to find other people to play with, but there is something very addictive about playing the harmonica and the guitar at the same time.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:55 PM

I get my harmonicas from Anthony Dannecker. He offers Hohner Harmonicas in a variety of tunings. A bit more expensive than a "straight out the box" Hohner, but well worth it as he also fettles them as well so they play better. I have also found his service excellent. I can recommend him. I get special 20's as they are available in a wide variety of keys. For keys less common in folk music, I have stuck with standard Richter Tuning.

You could modify a standard Harmonica yourself. Steve Shaw does, I believe.

The availability of Paddy Richter tuned is what encouraged me to pick up the Harmonica seriously again after 30 years. I have had a Hohner Chromonica in G for some years and I found it very good, though the reeds are going now. However, I really prefer the simplicity of the 10 hole diatonic. Although I can bend notes, I never felt I was able to control them sufficiently to provide those missing notes so the Paddy Richter tuning meets my needs.

Also I have found the Paddy Richter tuning opens up more options when playing modal tunes, particularly for chords.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM

Thank you for the link, Tootler. I've had a quick look.

I'm a fairly skilled woodworker (not meaning to boast) and for a while there, it looked like I would be able to rent a place to work and finally unpack my tools, which have been packed up for over a decade. I've had a bit of a set-back, now, but I still hope to do it sometime soon. If I can, I'd quite like to fiddle about with instruments.

Most of my harmonicas are about 20 years old. One or two of them might be 10 years older; I'm not sure. They've held up extremely well. All of them are Hohners. I didn't actually ever play them very much until a couple of years ago. I don't play blues very often and rarely bend notes. The Hohner broschure I have says that bending notes causes the reeds to wear out, which makes sense to me. That's not why I don't do it, though; it just doesn't suit my style.

I like the chromatic, but I find it easier to play the diatonic, if a song allows it. Sometimes its surprising what can be played on a Richter harmonica: for example, the chorus of "La Vie en Rose" and most of "La Mer" (Charles Trenet's, not Debussy's) can be played on a diatonic harmonica. Sometimes a bend or two is necessary. I don't find it very easy to bend when using a rack, though.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:20 PM

I've just taken a closer look at the Paddy Richter tuning above. Now I see the sense of it. I've got a Hohner Pro Harp supposedly in A natural minor (this model is no longer available). Actually, it would be more correct to call it D dorian since the low note is D and the blow notes form a Dm chord. It's not actually very useful for playing songs in A minor and, in fact, I hardly ever use it. I think it can be used for playing "Henry Morgan", but I'm not sure.

It is interesting figuring out what can be played on a harmonica, and I'm sure fiddling with tunings can be fun and interesting, just as I'm sure it is for a pedal-steel guitar. However, I think it would just be simpler to have complete diatonic scales with 12 holes, like half of a chromatic harmonica. Than one wouldn't need all the rigamarole.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:49 PM

so Tootler, do you reckon it is beeter than the lee oskar melody maker,which enables you to play the missin g note as well.
I have two anthony dannecker harmonicas which are really good,but I wish he would make a 10 hole dannecker in richter tuning.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:15 PM

Piers Plowman--I am sorry to hear about your problems with the neighbors. With all of the ambient noises these days, from traffic to lawnmower and leaf blowers, to the sound systems in cars, to air conditioning systems to guitar hero video games and home entertainment systems, it is amazing that anyone can hear your trumpet at all--

Anyway, I am glad that you're sticking with it--the first months are the hardest, and it really is physically demanding work, so it takes time to build stamina. We need more people to do what you've done.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:36 PM

I think it is a matter of personal choice. I have never tried the melody maker tuning, though I can see its advantages. I did consider the melody maker scale but decided that the Paddy Richter tuning would suit me better and I feel I made the right choice.

Anthony Dannecker does make harmonicas in Richter Tuning. He refers to them as "Major" which is really the standard tuning. I have a low D from Anthony Dannecker in standard (ie Richter) tuning.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:44 PM

My last post was a reply to Capt Birdseye.

Piers Plowman it is possible to get tremolo harmonicas in the tuning you describe. Take a look at the Hohner Celeste

I have tried tremolo harmonicas, but I couldn't really get on with them.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:23 PM

Getting back to ukes, anyone know where there is info on uke strums? Books, CD's etc.

Formby manages to get some interesting right hand patterns going ala tenor banjo rhythms.

Ukulele Ike also.

Frank

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM

What made George Formby the great player he was , WAS his Right hand ! I understand he only knew one set of chords , and played a different instrument if he was changing key , rather than play a variant chord Pattern !

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:52 PM

George Formby played open position chords because he liked the open sound, not because he didn't know any other chord patterns. There are only a couple additional chord fingerings that you need to know to play in all the keys, anyway-that "I only know one set of chords" business was a joke.

Subject: RE: ukulele to replace recorder
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 10:41 PM

100