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BS: Where are all the Righties???
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:34 PM Ebbie the lefties here(including yourself) were more interested in winning the phoney contest between Pubs and Dems , than in any real change. They voted for Mr Obama, a career politician from Chicago of all places, because he was colour of the month and ticked all the PC boxes, "change" was never anything other than a buzz word. If you are looking for ignorance, look no further than those who indulge in this disgusting charade every four years....now that is REAL ignorance |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM Well, to be fair, Ake, the public in the USA was desperate in 2008 for real change, and many of them hoped that Obama would deliver it and believed he would. I had my doubts, but I thought there was some possibility of it at least, and I figured that I'd find out after Obama got elected. My deeper feeling, though, was that even if Obama genuinely desired to fullfill the kind of progressive hopes his campaign was arousing in people, his party and the ruling power structure that stands behind both the Dems and the Pubs would never allow him to. Thus I would say that the Left was simply naive regarding the situation. It's not ignorance so much as it is sheer wishful thinking. The Republicans engage in similarly unrealistic wishful thinking regarding the people that party chooses to run for high office. In both cases they've been had. If a man (or woman) got to the White House and tried to change things as much as Obama suggested he would while he was campaigning, his life wouldn't be worth a plugged nickel. When you get to that level of government you either do what the $ySStem wants or they find a way to put you out of business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM "He just makes stupid policy decisions while looking and sound intelligent. He probably is very intelligent, I think....but, alas, he is a front man for something else entirely, and he has to do exactly what that something else requires him to do." ??? How DO you come up with glib commentary like that, L.H.? (or Akenaton?) And would you recognize a smart policy decision if it bit you on the butt? I am amazed at the deep, *urk*, insightful *cough, cough*, brilliant, *giggle*, incisive, *choke*, analyses by some of the armchair wizards of world politics we have here. ....and Dennis Kucinich can't distinguish between idealistic wishful thinking and practical decision making. He's a good guy for stating where we'd LIKE to be, but his road maps are straight lines...4-lane highways that ignore rivers, mountains and fault lines. "Point this vehicle HOME, and let's go!" sorry, guys...but Obama is coming closer to navigating this damned minefield the Republicans left us with than about anyone could. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM Now, don't get fractious, Bill. ;-) I wouldn't wish Obama's job on anyone...specially anyone I like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:26 PM Again I agree with you Hawk, but there are always those brave enough to challenge the system, be it through political belief or just good old egomania. When I first heard Mrs Palin speak, I thought...now here is someone who believes what she says, she may be naive and under-educated but she is real, with the power to inspire ordiary people. Obama appealed mainly to the "intellegensia", and although the blacks voted for him en masse, he never won over working class whites. The Mudcat dems just loved him....he was their winning ticket against their hated enemies If they had really wanted change they would have campaigned for Kucinich......but of course they don't want change, they just want a winner. As I said over a year ago the parallels with Blair and the left in the UK are unmistakable.....x factor politics.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM The fact that he never carried the white working class was presented here as racism (isn't everything) When it was simply a case of working people refusing to succumb to "political colour blindness" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM "When you get to that level of government you either do what the $ySStem wants or they find a way to put you out of business. " and THAT is a prime example. You have decided, as a basic premise, that "the $ySStem" controls everything, and that we poor peasants can only cower and pretend to make serious changes. This is one of those circular bits of reasoning, wherein any attempt to dispute you is defined as either ignorance, part OF "the $ySStem", or just an example of how corrupt & clever "the $ySStem" is. (Like the 100 MPG carburetor, which we KNOW exists, but we don't have because "the $ySStem" is hiding it. We KNOW they're hiding it, because...umm... we don't have it! All roads lead to the nasty "$ySStem" by default. It must be nice, if you don't have THE answer, to at least be able to make grand, sweeping statements about why you don't have the answer.... *grin* (why, yes....I DID have a bad few days. Why do you ask?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM Bill.... Mr Obama may be a consumate politician, but he promised "change". Can you honestly see Mr Obama being allowed to produce anything resembling meaningful change? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM I asked because I care, Bill. (grin) The $ySStem isn't anywhere near all-pervasive enough to control everything and they don't have enough people in uniform to do that. They just control the few really vital things that they must control...the rest is way too complicated and they don't have enough flunkies to deal with it all. Do you think that the Emperor controlled everything that went on in ancient Rome for gosh sakes? ;-) Not a chance. But he did control the few vital things that he placed real importance on, and the ruling $ySStem we live under does the same, and we as individuals can do about as much about that as the individual Roman could do about the Emperor. As always, Bill, my personal solution is to live the best life I can while I'm here...in the sense of being loving, unharmful, creative, and basically a good person. I expect little from the political system as it presently exists, I believe in none of the parties, and I spend precious little of my time and energy in regards to them, because that is not what my life is essentially about. It's about the ordinary people and situations I deal with each day. I talk about politics merely because I find it quite interesting, but I live my life independently of it, because my life is not about politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:08 PM ALLOWED? By whom? Most of the resistance to change is by Republican refusal to vote for ANYTHING he proposes. We do most things by a constitutional process. (George Bush tried to do everything by decree.."signing statements"....and was heavily criticized for it...Obama promised to avoid that path and make his administration's changes 'feel' legal and as bi-partisan as possible. He is using that method to 'change' the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, even though it is a sore point with many who want it NOW. He wants it to be VOTED away, like it was voted IN...by Congress.) And 'change' of the sort we need is not like instant coffee...(if it were that quick, it would probably be as unpalatable AS instant coffee). Obama inherited a mess....economic, military, cultural...and more. And 99% of the Republicans are doing everything possible to see that he fails...or is 'perceived' to be failing....no matter what it costs the country. They want their damned power and perks back!...and NO lie is too big or distortion too gross to discredit Obama. Meaningful change?? Geeze...his entire demeanor and procedure is meaningful change! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:13 PM I don't doubt that you care, LH... but your disclaimer follows the same pattern: "...They just control the few really vital things that they must control.." See? Same basic premise..modified to 'answer' my remarks. "They" control...proof? Easy, "it isn't going like I'd like, so 'they' must be preventing it'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM Don't you believe "they" exist bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:25 PM Naw...Bill seems to believe that the USA is still ruled by Constitutional law...that the two big political parties represent a genuine alternative...that Congress and the courts really work for the people...that the banks can be trusted with your money...etc. Now that's what I call naivete! It's like continuing to believe in Santa Claus, Robin Hood, and the Tooth Fairy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:28 PM Not a good question, Ake... do I believe that there are folks who want THEIR agenda to go forward for financial & personal reasons? Sure...but that is a universal truth of history. Do I believe that some insidious, secretive 'they' can manipulate my entire society by whim? naawwwww..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:35 PM ....if you really think the Santa Claus & Tooth Fairy metaphor is relevant to object to my position, LH, you are proving my point. If not, your strange sense of humor is showing ☺. ...and this flawed Constitutional process is gradually being made to work, after many years of being sneered at by Republicans....give it a little time! Whadda ya' want in 7-8 months? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:38 PM (incidently, if I fail to respond ...now or for a day...it is that I have my major craft show in 2 weeks, and I am busy as _ _ _ _....whatever) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: akenaton Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:41 PM Good night Bill and Hawk. Nice conversation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM There are a few crucial areas one must control to have overall control of a society, Bill. The most important ones are: 1. Military and police power - I assure you that "they" are well in control of that. 2. The creation of money - ditto. 3. The overall control of the mass media - ditto. 4. The overall control of the "justice system" - ditto. 5. The overall control of trade and tax legislation - ditto. And, yes, "they" do have control of those...primarily through the power of their money, secondarily through the power of violence when it proves necessary (which is what the police and armed forces are there for). There was a Russian "They" who controlled life in the Soviet Union, but they did it in a more obvious manner. There is a "they" who contol life in China. There is a "they" who control life in North America and in Europe as well. And who are "they"? Well, they're simply the very richest people who are at the very top of the power pyramid. They don't have to get elected to wield this power, they simply have to have the money to manage whoever does get selected and then elected. Do they sometimes fight amongst themselves? Yes. That happens. But for the most part they are content to arrange things in a mutually beneficial cartel so that they all prosper at the expense of the general public, so that wars will be fought when wars are considered desirable, and so that new "enemies" will always be found to provide an excuse for those wars. You know how FDR ended the depression? Not by his social programs...though those did help people to some extent. No, he ended the depression by pushing the Japanese into a trade corner where they would finally go to war...and then the massive war production kicked in for the USA and that ended the depression. (The Japanese were themselves much to blame for that situation due to their own imperial excesses in China, but Roosevelt did everything he could to force them into a war, and they responded exactly as intended.) War production is the best way of boosting an economy that can possibly be found...as long as your own land doesn't get invaded and bombed and conquered and you don't lose the war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Janie Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:51 PM I think it possible for him to get us moving in a different direction. I think some sort of healthcare reform bill will make it into law during his administration, and that will be a huge accomplishment. Will it be perfect or even adequate? Very unlikely. Will it be a step in the right direction? Definitely. And once that first step is taken, it is nearly inevitable that we will eventually see national health care coverage in this country. LH, I don't know whether your view that the intrenched power structure is so formidable that it is not at all possible to change it is cynical or naive, but it is not a rational position and that conclusion is not supported by history. Large social social change usually occurs incrementally. And that usually a good idea as it gives societies some protection from the anarchy that often results from very rapid and massive social change. Given the economic calamity that the Obama administration inherited, I think the Obama presidency has thus far been more effective than any of the presidencies of any of the other candidates, regardless of party, would have been. (Any anyone who read any of the pre-election threads knows that I was not wildly enamoured of Obama.) Kucinich would have completely slammed into a brick wall with Congress by now. McCain, I think, would be foundering for direction. Hilary Clinton would have most likely antagonized too many Congressmen/women with attempts at behind the scene power plays that she did not have the chips to win. And let us not forget John Q Public. The American people are generally not ready and not willing to accept that the American dream of more, more, more of anything and everything. We want good, affordable health care, great roads to drive on, sidewalks, parks, good school systems, garbage pick-up, curbside recycling, a reasonable social safety net (at least I do) fast and always good service when dealing with any governmental agency, and no new taxes. We want to continue to increase our standard of living and capacity to consume so we want lots of goods at low prices, manufactured at home by US citizens making good wages. What's wrong with this picture? It is easy to blame the $ySStem (or however it is that LH spelled it) for selling people a bill of goods. But people also have a huge responsibility that w are not meeting, and that we will not own up to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: DougR Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:59 PM One of 'em is right here, Bobert my friend. We can do little about the decision the Obama administration has made to try the 9/11 terrorists in New York. I think it sucks, but thinking doesn't change things. AG Holder is bound and determined to offer the guilty ones a showplace for their trial and I suppose they will get it. It's just another bow by the Obama bunch to the ACLU, that stellar patriotic organization that never saw a terrorist it didn't love. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Janie Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:10 PM There was obviously a lot of conversation happening while I was thinking about and typing my last post. LH, I disagree with your assertion that FDR deliberately pushed Japan to War to end the Depression. The USA is not, and never has been perfect, but we are not responsible for all the ills of the world, nor are we responsible for the choices that other political entities make. And I think a good argument could be made that as a political entity, our government is certainly no more concerned with power than any other political entity, and somewhat less corrupt and somewhat more transparent than many other countries. (note the use of "somewhat"). Sometimes you come across as believing that the USA is the "great evil" in the political world. I don't think that is a very accurate paradigm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bobert Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:10 PM Well, the problem isn't Obama but it is very much the $y$tem... The $y$tem is corrupted... The entire idea of having to have 60% majority to have majority rule makes the $y$tem unworkable... Majority rule should be just that... Gettin' 60% works right into the hands of the corporatists and the status quo... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM You make many good points there, Janie. Yes, change is incremental. Yes, Kucinich would have run into a brick wall in Congress...but it's academic, because he'd never had been selected to run for president by the Democrats anyway. He's too far outside the establishment for that. The entrenched power structure does change bit by bit...mostly because at some point it is forced to deal with harsh realities, and then a shift occurs. The $ySStem is basically in pursuit of irrational and totally amoral objectives, and because of that some of its plans inevitably fail, such as the plan it had for Vietnam and the plan it presently has for Afghanistan. When such a plan is finally seen to utterly fail, then there is an opportunity for some kind of useful change. John Q Public is definitely part of the problem, just as you say. People in North America are unrealistic in their expectations. The reason I spell it "the $ySStem" is because it's an alliance between the power of money and the power of fascism, in my opinion...the "SS" part symbolizing fascist authority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Janie Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:26 PM Doug R, I see the ACLU, of which I am a "card carrying member" as performing a very, very important service and function. The ACLU does not love terrorists. The ACLU is dedicated to protecting the civil rights and civil liberties supposedly guaranteed to all under our constitution. The work of the ACLU is of utmost importance in protecting those rights for all of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM Ak, it matters not one bit how good you are. If you cant get elected you are toast. Period. I mostly voted against John McWar and that air head who has no clue what the duties of the VP are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:35 PM About the FDR thing and Japan, Janie. What I said is no particular implication that the USA is any more evil than any other great power. The Japanese and the Americans had been gearing up for an eventual naval war in the Pacific ever since the 1920s and they both knew it. They played wargames regularly to see how best to fight it, and they engaged in huge naval building programs with an eye to besting or containing the other. This was because the USA and Japan were THE 2 great naval powers in the Pacific Theatre, and they were both busy carving out an overseas empire there. The Americans had bases in the Phillipines and a number of other places, and that greatly concerned the Japanese. The Japanese had acquired some handy bases too after the end of WWI when they were given some former German possessions. This gave them advanced bases at places like Truk Lagoon and the Marianas, and that worried the USA. So I think the clash was in fact inevitable...just a question of when. Now, Japan had planned a provocation in China in 1937 which allowed them to launch a terribly brutal war there, and they just kept getting drawn deeper and deeper into the vast Chinese interior. They were also moving into the French colonial areas in what is now Vietnam, taking advantage of French weakness following France's 1940 defeat by Germany. So the Japanese were destabilizing and provoking the whole East Asian-Pacific area. From FDR's point of view, he very much wanted to enter WWII so as to defeat Germany, but he had no pretext for doing so, and he had an isolationist public and Congress. The best way to get the country in a mood for war was to get someone else to attack the USA (think 911) and the Germans certainly were not going to do so. But the Japanese could be provoked into doing so by FDR cutting off their supplies of both oil and steel by a trade embargo. Without the oil and steel, Japan's war in China would stall and their entire military would grind to a halt in about 1 year...they had no domestic sources of oil and steel. With the embargo in place, war with Japan was utterly inevitable, and Roosevelt knew it. It would result in the Japanese attacking first...somewhere...and that's what he needed to get the American public mad enough to support fighting a global war against both Japan and Germany. I doubt that he imagined the Japanese had the expertise to launch a large attack on Pearl Harbour....they were badly underestimated in Wsshington...but it didn't really matter where they attacked in the long run. They didn't have a big enough economy to win a war with the USA. Now, had I been in Roosevelt's place, I might have done the very same thing in 1941. How about that, eh? I don't think it indicates that the USA is particularly evil...it's just standard big power politics and strategy when empires start colliding over spheres of influence. And it did end the depression, so that was just one more payoff for a policy on FDR'd part that turned out to be a pretty smart and effective policy. I'm not saying he did it TO end the depression...he had many global strategic reasons for doing it...but I'm saying that it ended the depression in any case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM LH, I agree with some of Margolis' analysis, but not all. Yes, US funding to Pakistan intelligence fostered the Taliban. The warlord Ahmed Shah Massoud, a Tajik, was the military leader responsible for driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan, not Osama or the Taliban. The Taliban rolled in when Massoud and co lost control and anarchy descended on Afghanistan. Afghans previously practised a gentler version of Islam, and those in the cities were culturally influenced by western ideas. Afghan women in the cities were educated, could hold jobs and did not wear full body covering as they were forced to do under the Taliban. The Taliban brought into Afghanistan the extremeism of the Wahabis, the wrap 'em up and chop em uppers. Although claiming to be anti-communist, the Taliban are led by many of the old Afghan communists. Why? Pragmatism and ethnic loyalty. The Taliban and the Communists are both Pashtun-dominated movements, and tribal and ethnic bonds rule. Margolis does not mention the Hazaras, who were subjected to genocide by the Taliban, their massacred bodies dumped in group graves. The Hazaras were begging the West for intervention prior to the allied invasion, because their young men were being executed, or kidnapped by the Taliban and sent to the front line. The invasion by Allied forces has and effectively saved the Hazaras from ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Taliban, in those areas where the Allied forces have had control. I wonder what will happen to the Hazaras when the Allied Forces pull out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 AM I thought "her duties" were to keep an eye on Russia, Kendall... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:14 AM LH, you are so right but you left out the thing that finally "tore the rag off the bush". FDR finally froze all of Japans assets in this country. They knew they could not win a war with the USA, but to lose face was worse than death to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: meself Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM Well - at least, worse than the deaths of how many of their own people - but who among the decision-makers lost their lives? Certainly not Hirohito, who, from what I understand, was not the innocent he has sometimes been made out to be .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM I think the largest share of the blame falls not on Hirohito, but on the generals who commanded the Japanese Army and who ran the government. Although they professed loyalty to the Emperor, they in fact regarded him as a convenient rubber stamp on decisions that they had already made themselves. There was a long tradition of that in Japan....warlords really ran the system in the feudal period, the Emperor served as a symbolic inspiration for the people. The Emperor could issue a command and be sure it was obeyed, but he generally didn't. The warlords issued the commands. Now in the case of the Japanese generals who did make the decisions that took Japan to war in China and then against the USA, the UK, and Holland...most of those generals did end up badly. Some were executed (including Yamashita, who really should not have been, in my opinion) and others committed suicide when the war ended, so if punishment is what you desire for them, I think your desire has been met. Freda, your comments about Massoud, the Wahabis, the Hazara, and so on, are quite accurate. Have you read the book "The Kite Runner"? There's a lot of info in there about the persecutions suffered by the Hazara and the vicious nature of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes, Massoud did the most harm to the Soviets. One should not, however, discount the fighting done by Osama's people, the Mujahedin (forerunners of the Taliban), and the Pashtuns...all of whom also fought against the Soviet occupation. The Hazaras have always been treated badly by the majority Pashtuns...and I expect they will continue to be treated badly in the future. Tribal rivalries go way back in that region. And, yes, the Wahabis are a very unpleasant outfit. No argument there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM This country USA became a world power in about 230 years. Capitalism, free markets and those freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution and Bill of Rights made it possible. We are the most generous nation on the planet. We are the first to respond to any world tragedies. Everyone wants to get into this great land, very few want out. I have not seen one socialistic country thrive without suppressing their masses. Why would anyone want to change from what we have, to what we will become under this administration? Other countries have been around for thousands of years and can't hold a candle to the US. Socialism never works, history proves it. I am 77 years old, so maybe I am losing my mind; but I can't understand what most of the population today expects from others. The opportunities are out there, go to them and prosper in this great land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM *tsk*, Little Hawk "I assure you that "they" are well in control ..".etc... I'm afraid that being 'assured' of your opinion is not exactly what I require to be convinced. (was there ever any doubt that I thought that way? ☺) Same with that fairly common analysis of FDR's policies. I have read for many years that it was suspected that FDR manipulated us into war in order to...blah, blah, blah.... but as far as I remember, it was all speculation. (In the case of Bush and Iraq, we have MUCH more direct evidence.) I can easily see how FDR might have just reacted TO events and made good use of his opportunities without pushing & planning such terrible things. *shrug*... I tend not to **believe** either way until I see hard evidence. You know, I think see a pattern in certain poster's opinions, and if I wasn't philosophically opposed to wild generalization, *grin*, I might be tempted to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Jeri Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM Suppose I told you I'd once lived in a country where I didn't pay for medical care, other than taxes. Everything was paid for by taxes. People who had a higher income and a lower had the same exact care that I did. Medicine also came out of taxes, too. On the other hand, the doctors didn't have to pay for malpractice insurance and the facility, equipment, and staff was provided for them. It's a shame it can't happen here. I thought the system worked pretty well for everybody, and I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would not want something similar, other than knee-jerk because of defensiveness of the status quo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM Bush, Blair, and other like minded idiots were itching to get into a hassle with Saddam. They should have finished him in Gulf 1, when they stopped fifty miles short of Baghdad, instead of which they shafted the Iraqi dissidents who would have taken control and kept the contry moving forward. Those people died as soon as Saddam got the coalition out of his hair. They missed the bus, and fudging up intel reports to justify a second bite at the cherry, was a) ILLEGAL! and b) STUPID! When will these dumb bastards realise that if you constantly interfere in your neighbour's life, he is one day going to hop the fence and black your eye. I want MY government to tend to our cabbage patch, bring the boys home to defend it, and leave the neighbours to sort their own hassle. If we don't provoke them, why would they bother to bomb us? When was the last time anybody bombed a Swiss city, or a Swedish city? Hell, even the neutral Irish were never bombed, and the North were only bombed by their own citizens. In the UK, I am considered right wing, but I suspect that to the right of me I would find Attila the Hun, and beyond him the GOP. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM bluerabbit10, you must have watched Andy Rooney last night. He made the same comment that everyone wants to come here. Thats rubbish! Ok, all you UK catters, lets hear it, why dont you want to come here? Is it because of our awful health care system? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM Kendall, no I don't watch that network anymore; tho at one time I did watch Rooney...many years ago. I wouldn't say "everyone wants to come here,"; but not many want to leave here, save some holi-wooder-types who have said as much; but are still here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:29 PM Do you have any good reason why I should not be cynical and contemptuous of governments in general, Bill? ;-) Virtually every person I talk to or hear talking to someone else around me is cynical and contemptuous of present day governments, and I live in one of the most benign and pleasant countries in the world. I also see loads of conspiracy theories I don't place any credence in, but I don't bother posting about them on Mudcat. I only post about the ones I'm interested in. One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission, for example. Bluerabbit10, you are just repeating the gospel as it was told to you from the time you were in First Grade. It may surprise you that I lived in the USA for 10 years, then I returned to Canada (my original place of birth) and I would rather live in Canada by a factor of 10 to 1. I know a lot of Americans who have moved here because they feel the same way about that as I do. Funny how you never hear about that, isn't it? You are not the most generous country in the world, and there's really no way of even determining who that would be. There are too many factors involved to make such a statement. What you are is the most heavily armed and aggressive country in the world, and your nation is spending more money on the military than all the other nations in the world put together. It's also consuming more resources than the rest of the world is. I don't call that "generous", I call it wasteful and irresponsible. Yes, you do live in a great land. So do I. It's called "North America". I'm in the Canadian section, you're in the USA section. It's unquestionably a great land, and it's inhabited by fine people whom I am glad to call my friends, but your government is not a great government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM What I mean is...I like Americans, I just don't like your government, that's all. The main reasons I would not want to move to the States are: 1. terrible health care system that costs people way too much money 2. terrible political system, run by 2 phony parties 3. a strong government tendency toward authoritarianism 4. dangerous inner cities, high crime rate, corrupt police (in some states and municipalities) The main things I like about the States are: 1. nice friendly people 2. beautiful geography 3. lots of interesting places to go and things to see 4. very interesting history and culture I haven't visited the USA since 911 happened, and I know more than a few other people who say the same thing. Things have just gotten a bit too weird south of the (Canadian) border, so I've stayed away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:01 PM You are right LH. Our present day government is not a great government. There's too much of it and its been that way for a long while. It is getting worse by the hour. Government isn't what made America great, our people did. (You may call that a First Grade Cliche, but it is the truth). I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that? My senior class prophecy in High School (1950) was that I would be a forester and be living in Canada...Well I am a forester; but still here. I have nothing against Canada, beautiful country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:30 PM There is a smidgen of truth in that thing about how long the person has to wait to see the cardiologist. That is, there have been some such cases. In most cases treatment is prompt and it's good. It all depends, I guess, on exactly which community you're living in and how overloaded the local hospitals are with patients. I had a friend who was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and they dealt with that immediately. He was sent straight to hospital, put under observation for a few days, then operated on. So in his case the medical system moved very fast. Sometimes one hears of a case where treatment is delayed and it gets into the papers here. So what I am saying is that no system is absolutely perfect, and I wouldn't claim that the Canadian health care system is perfect either, but in most cases it's very good. It remains the most popular public institution in Canada with massively high public support in national polls. That shows that it's doing its job pretty well. The main point is that your medical treatment here is free after taxes (with the exception of dental work). My yearly taxes for that privilege are less than $1,000 and that's typical. I call that a very good deal. I only wish they'd extend it to dental as well, because that's a major expense for most people. It seems reasonable that a society would want its people to receive medical care at as little cost as possible. After all, you need a healthy populace to have a healthy society, don't you? It can only benefit society as a whole if people are not driven into bankruptcy by necessary medical care. You're quite right that what made America great was its people. The same is true of Canada. I find that most people are basically good in their nature, and that seems to be true everywhere I go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM "One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission" ?? Are you saying that the 9/11 commission's report is no better than a 'conspiracy theory'?...as in flawed, full of holes, biased and carelessly done? (I can't remember, offhand, all the hundreds of posts about that topic in the last several years) If so, I must ask if you have you read/watched/considered the explications and defenses of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM I submit, if you haven't watched/read it, this study. (there was an entire hour-long TV program about it...I have seen it 2-3 times) Popular Science review of the 9/11 theories I'm not sure whether those who reject the Commission are 'righties', but there are similarities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM What made America great? Immigration, expansionism, entrepreneurship, capitalism. Same holds true for Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:13 PM I think that what made both the USA and Canada great was a combination of... 1. an incredibly rich and diversified natural environment, full of useful resourcess 2. hardworking people with a pretty strong and democratic set of social institutions which came over from England 3. mercantilism such as you allude to. It was all accomplished, however, by robbing and pretty much wiping out the Native civilizations that flourished here prior to the 1500s, so a Native American might see it a bit differently. **** Those who reject the 911 Commission's findings, Bill, are found on both the Right and the Left. They come from every part of the political spectrum. I don't even see what Right or Left have to do with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM As for "Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ever since I was a little kid. You got a conventional view about anything that is pushed by the mainstream and the government? "Popular Science" will recite it like it was the gospel. I bet they are paid well by their sponsors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:21 PM ""I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that? And Bluerabbit, I have heard that 47 million poor Americans are unlikely ever to see any consultant specialist. Also, I have heard that Americans who have an on-going health problem are consistently refused health cover. Also, I have heard that those Americans who DO have health cover pay ten times what I pay in the UK, and still may have to fight the insurance companies for payment if they get sick. ANY TRUTH IN THAT? And please DON'T say NO!....WE know it's true. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:55 PM "..."Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ..." Mercy! It never ends. Anything and anyone that put forth viewpoint "X" is labeled as biased...one way or the other. The study I point to has been WIDELY praised as being clear, focused, complete and as UNbiased as any investigation could be. I did wonder if you had bothered to read/watch it. *I* watched the films and claims from the other side....like "Loose Change". ah, well.... back to more woodworking... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM America was founded by the losers and dregs of Europe. I'd say we turned out rather well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 PM Where are the righties? Probably hiding from Sara! by the by, 100 |
