BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 08:36 PM

"Pretty good" counts as pretty effusive in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 09:17 PM

From Emma's link on another thread:

"The bottom line is that the opponents of universal health care appear to have run out of honest arguments. All they have left are fantasies: horror fiction about health care in other countries, and fairy tales about health care here in America."

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/07/16/opinion/16krugman.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1190367339-/20RYgCrVnWKw4gQ1yB+qw&oref=slogin

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 09:39 PM

"The bottom line is that the opponents of universal health care appear to have run out of honest arguments. All they have left are fantasies: horror fiction about health care in other countries, and fairy tales about health care here in America."

Gee, what an even-tempered, moderate, objective statement to add to a discussion.

Nope, that won't shut down discussion. That's "pretty good".

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:52 PM

Here is an excerpt from a fairly lengthy post on the "thread with the controversial title" that spawned this thread (this isn't controversial?).

Along with my manual wheelchair, I have a power wheelchair. It can move at a good, swift jogging pace, it has a 25-mile range on a full charge, and with it, I can go a lot of places that I couldn't otherwise, including riding the city busses (which are equipped with wheelchair lifts). A couple of months ago, the batteries had to be replaced. It takes two 12-volt deep-cycle batteries. The charge to have Care Medical (where I bought the chair) replace the batteries was $500 ($220 per battery, plus $60 for installation).

I asked the technician who was installing the batteries "Why so much?" "Well," said the tech, "the batteries are classed as medical equipment, and they figure some insurance company is going to pay for them anyway."

I checked the labels on the batteries and called my nephew, who works for an auto supply store that, among other things, sells batteries. He said, "Those are standard marine batteries, like for a power boat. You can get them at any battery store. They should cost about 50 bucks apiece, max! Next time your chair needs batteries, fer gawdsake, call me!"

We know that Americans pay a lot more—a lot more—for prescription drugs than people in other countries do. A fair number of Americans who live near the Canadian border find that, even including the cost of the trip, they can get the same prescription drug for less in Canada than they can at their local pharmacy. And I've compared prices for manual wheelchairs with prices for good quality bicycles, which, apart from the design, contain more parts and are generally a bit more complex than a wheelchair. Wheelchairs are much more expensive, for no manufacturing or parts reasons that I can detect, than a considerably more complex bicycle. Why?

I think the Care Medical technician I mentioned above provided the answer.

This raises the question of how much in the way of medical bills, especially ones charged to insurance companies, are heavily padded?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:51 PM

Don, the uninsured usually wind up paying more, in my experience, than folks do who have insurance. That is, the insurance companies negotiate lower rates with the service providers and wind up not paying full-price. A self-pay, as I was for several years, is expected to pay full price because they have no one allowed to bargain for them.

There is more about it HERE.


More about hospital charges HERE, if you scroll down. Also, from there, obvious the uninsured are not spending much time in hospital:

Together, Medicare and Medicaid are billed for more than half (58 percent) of all hospitalizations. Private insurers are billed for 35 percent while uninsured hospitalizations account for about 5 percent of hospital stays. The remaining 3 percent of hospitalizations are billed to other insurers or the expected payer cannot be determined.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 12:18 AM

Oops, I misread your posting a little bit, Don. Just to clarify: I am sure hospital bills ARE padded; probably why they are open to negotiations with insurance companies, which could also be a big reason for why they are padded. Still the uninsured wind up paying for all of the padding.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 08:46 AM

Don, I once had a boss (who had excellent health insurance, BTW) who demanded an itemized bill for each period of care. She found, for example, that she had been billed for such things as $12.50 per day for the tissues next to her bed. The insurance paid, no questions asked, whatever their "reasonable and customary" negotiated rate was.

I don't personally believe that those who are uninsured pay for the care of those who are, but that's certainly where much of the profit margin comes from. If I were advising someone who was uninsured, I'd say to get that itemized bill first and then sit down with the billing office to discuss a reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 10:08 AM

art, my daughter did just that for me when I went into the hospital with congestive heart failure and no insurance. They were very hostile and reduced the bill only by about 1%, leaving me with a bill of over $13,000 which I am paying off $50 per month.:-<

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:18 PM

In the lengthy post on the other thread that I mention above (HERE, if you care to read it), I talk about three weeks I spent in a hospital in Feb-Mar of 2000.

While I was there, my regular doctor checked to see that there would be no interaction problems with the prescription drug that I take regularly (blood pressure) and the stuff they were giving me at the hospital, then told me to keep taking it. My wife brought me my pills from home. A couple of people at the hospital had a hissy-fit about my "self-medicating," even if I had been told to by my regular physician. They wanted to confiscate my pills and then dole them out to me. With my regular doctor's support, I insisted that they back off!

One of the nurses (bless her pea-pickin' heart—on several occasions—for putting patient welfare before hospital regulations; I would nominate her for sainthood!) informed me that, had I given in, they would have charged me about $12.00 a day to give me my own pills!

A nickel here, a nickel there. . . .    Ain't it grand how the money rolls in?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:22 PM

Yeah. And that amounts to "Mr Firth, take two of these with water right now. [gulp] Thank you Mr Firth."

That took all of 20 seconds. At $12 for that, I'm making $2160 an hour. Good business to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

Remember when the Pentagon/Militar was charging for tailet seats at something like $5000?

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:38 PM

Here is part of my plan:

Called the Ex-Con Clinics

1. Ex-prisoners have very hard times getting jobs (and housing).
2. They can be, sometimes are, and definitely should be, getting job training and credentials whilst in prison.
3. There are very unserved parts of the population, incluidng other ex-prisoners, drug users, homeless, mentally ill etc.

Kill a few birds with one stone. Train the prisoners, set up free or very low cost clinics and have some mobile and fixed clinics for the destitute run by ex-cons. Supervised of course by highly qualified professionals, nurses, doctors, administrators. Extra security on board. Extra special precautions around drugs, child welfare etc. Perhaps total video monitoring of every single interaction. Extreme security where drugs are concerned. Obviously not placing violent or sex offenders. Full disclosure that the medical providers are former whatevers.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 02:59 PM

A second class medical service for second class people...
..............................................

I'm not really sure that "opponents of universal health care" is really a fair way of putting it. Most of the doubters seem to think it'd be a good idea, but it would just be impossible, because Americans could never manage to run something like that without screwing it up, unlike everyone else.

I think they are needlessly underestimating their country's ability to get things right, when it sets its mind to it. I'm sure when America actually gets round to it it'll come up with a system that other people will admire and even wish to emulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

A service now provided for people who have nothing by people who now have nothing. While we wait for the perfect system, people die, starve, wander the streets. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 04:48 PM

There's No Way Like The American Way

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 05:49 PM

It's difficult to put billions into Universal Health Care when you use that money for bombs. Sometimes it's just that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

Not really. There is already more than enough money being spent on health to give the USA a universal health service that would be admired by the world.

"The United States continues to spend significantly more on health care than any country in the world. In 2005, Americans spent 53 percent per capita more than the next highest country, Switzerland, and 140 percent above the median industrialized country, according to new research from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 06:16 PM

Huh. So is it then "I've got mine and fu#k the rest of you"?

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM

"I'm all right, Jack" is how we put it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 06:34 PM

Exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 06:48 PM

MORE THREAD CREEP, but again it may be useful,
katlaughing and others,

Many hospitals have programs which will discount all or part of your bill, depending on your income. It might be worth asking about. At our hospital it is called "Ohio Free Care". Hospitals also frequently offer discounts to anyone who pays cash. I think our cash rate is about 80%.
For the future, you might look into high-deductible insurance. Some of my patients have it and are well-satisfied. Premiums are much lower. Ideally, one would keep an amount equal to the deductible in a savings account. They will not cover pre-existing conditions.
On another but related topic, the high cost of prescription drugs, remember that medicines are like many other goods in that each incremental increase in quality raises the price dramatically. You want good medicine, but not necessarily the very best. For example, in our area, the very best medicines to lower cholesterol costs about $70 a month or more, depending on the dosage. However, Giant Eagle pharmacy sells an almost-as-good generic for $4 a month. The diabetes medicine Actos can run over $600 for a three-month supply, but metformin, another diabetes medicine is about $12 for a three-month supply at Wal-Mart and K-Mart. The same price differences are true for blood pressure medicine, anti-depressants, antibiotics, etc. TELL your doctor if you are willing to accept an almost-as-good medicine. Sometimes there is no inexpensive alternative, but ususally there is.
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 07:11 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 07:41 PM

on that point McGrath, its worth noting what the drug companies in Africa re; malaria drugs.. when Gates foundation and other philanthropists started funding malaria research and drug programs
suddenly the price of anti-malarial drugs skyrocketed..
(and in general there wasnt much research into it by the drug companies since its the worlds poor who are most affected and they dont have the money)

Subject: RE: BS: Universal Medicine in the USA.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 08:20 PM

In Canada they are called generic drugs. For those people who have health plans for drug coverage, unless specifically prescribed, the folks who cover the cost will pay the cost of the generic.