Who are folk?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

Still waiting for my crimes against the blues rap to stick. Perhaps he sold his soul to Sandy Richardson at the Crossroads?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:08 AM

Anyone who says this: "The fear has to be that 'folk' is a post-rationalisation of music that neutralises it by guarding its temporal frontiers, in short, it separates popular music's commonality and impulses by an expedient of technological change.", needs an iPod, and needs it really bad.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

"The double glazing fitters and check-out girls probably do have their own workplace folklore, family stories and oral history, WLD, but do they (any more than accountants and IT specialists) have songs - meaning verses and choruses, that they can sing without a cue card? That's why Jim Carroll has spent so much time with the travellers - their communities carried on singing songs after many others had stopped."

I'm sure the check-out girls do sing, that is, if the manager won't fire them for it, but they'll probably be discounted for singing songs they learned off the radio, or from karaoke at parties and family events.

Anyway, I know from experience that here in Israel people do sing at work, at school, for fun, etc.

Are the people waiting for their flight in the Ben-Gurion airport lounge singing and playing guitar not folk?

Are the schoolkids who sing the same three or four songs (all recorded ones too) every year on the schooltrip, the same songs their older siblings and friends sing, not folk?

What about those 20-something year olds who throw a party on the beach and sing by the bonfire, not folk?

Is learning from a record significantly different in principle to learning from a braodside? The only reason people didn't is because the technology wasn't around.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

"Anyone who says this... needs an iPod, and needs it really bad."

I started talking nice and the first reply was 'this one isn't worth it', so I gave it regular street/forum and I was told I was stupid now I'm formal I'm told I need an iPod. It's clear why 1954 is such slippery stuff, you can't nail the motherf*cker with language.
Maybe there's a folk dialogue which is the only way to talk about it?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

Is learning from a record significantly different in principle to learning from a braodside?

Yes. It's a canonical source. Not only that, it's a canonical source that sounds better than you - only a minority of people who buy a record will be motivated to sing the song (for other people to hear).

The only reason people didn't is because the technology wasn't around.

I don't dispute this for a moment. I'm not saying technology's evil, or that people have been corrupted by it. I'm just saying these things have happened, and they've made a difference.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:04 PM

But nobody's been able to say what the difference was. It sits there, this difference, like the elephant in the drawing room's great uncle, absorbing threats and insults, impervious to language, inscrutable. the great cool before thing that killed the after.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

glueman: eg your post July 16 3.47 AM, when you refer to a specialist folk forum also being prepared to countenance posts on the subject of blues: ie you think blues is a separate category from folk.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

I said: "To make the point the generality of posts on this board, a specialist folk board at that, are completely unconcerned with definitions and include questions about country, acoustic, blues without anyone taking offence."

I don't take offence, most people don't, the distinction is completely irrelevant except for people who think there may be a pernickety wedge to drive, a hair to split.

You said: "Come off it, glueman|: you have stated unequivocally on this thread(twice I think) that blues are not a kind of folk music".

I'm still waiting. At the crossroads. With a hellhound on my tail.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

Folk and traditional music doesn't exist on its own. Its part of the common culture of a community. The thing is, it often has value outside of that community, and can be adopted and adapted by other communities.

All people are "folk", and all of them belong to communities of one sort or another. In recent years, a lot of long standing communities have disappeared. Others have lost parts of their common culture, such as the music. Other communities still, such as song circles, folk clubs, church groups, schools, and academics, have adopted and adapted musical artifacts from these more traditional communities.

It would be a mistake to say that the adopter/adapter communities had in become part of the traditions that they drew material from, since the songs and music, of necessity, have different meanings and functions in the new community.

However, the music and songs have become a part of the common culture of the adopter/adapter group, who are then the "folk" of their own community.

The common culture of this new community may include music derived from, and inspired by the music that has been adopted/adapted, and, in this way, even "singer/songwriter" music is folk music.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

MUSIC ! MUSIC ! MUSIC ! (PUT ANOTHER NICKEL IN)
(Stephan Weiss / Bernie Baum)

Teresa Brewer & The Dixieland All Stars - 1950
The Ames Brothers - 1950
Carmen Cavallaro & His Orch.(vocals: The Cavaliers) - 1950
Freddy Martin & His Orch.(vocals: Merv Griffin) - 1950
Micket Katz & His Orch. - 1950
Hugo Winterhalter, His Orch. & Chorus - 1950
The Sensations - 1961


Put another nickel in
In the nickelodeon
All I want is lovin' you
And music! music! music!

I'd do anything for you
Anything you'd want me to
All I want is kissin' you
And music! music! music!

Closer, my dear, come closer
The nicest part of any melody
Is when you're dancing close to me

So, put another nickel in
In the nickelodeon
All I want is lovin' you
And music! music! music!

[Dixieland Piano Break]

Put another nickel in
In the nickelodeon
All I want is lovin' you
And music! music! music!

I'd do anything for you
Anything you'd want me to
All I want is kissin' you
And music! music! music!

Closer, my dear, come closer
The nicest part of any melody
Is when you're dancing close to me

So, put another nickel in
In the nickelodeon
All I want is lovin' you
And music! music! music!

SPOKEN:
"C'mon, everybody! Put some nickels in! And keep that old
nickelodeon playing!"

Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
And music! music! music!

Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
Dum-dee-dum dee-dah-dee-dum
And music! music! music!

(Dixieland piano to end)


from

lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/m/musicmusicmusic.shtml

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

"It would be a mistake to say that the adopter/adapter communities had in become part of the traditions that they drew material from, since the songs and music, of necessity, have different meanings and functions in the new community."

Wanna borrow that iPod?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM

Unless someone explains to me what an iPod is, fairly soon, I will make a suggestion as to where the iPod can go. (No offense.)

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: GUEST,Ethel Fredsnimble(Miss)
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

Harry Booth and his Swingin' Spoons, Armitage, the musical seal, and Ebeneezer Cuckpowder and The Electric Rabbis are not folk.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

I have an iPod-well,a couple, actually. And, Bruce, you really don't know what they are? Here ya go! iPod

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM

M Ted, thank you very much. I'm still shaking my head. One there holds 20,000 songs. Wow!

It is great to see you back. Seems you were gone for a bit, and I noticed that because I love your posts and they just weren't showing up.

Keep well.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

But nobody's been able to say what the difference was.

Do you want me to start quoting myself again? I thought I had a pretty good stab at this very question back at the top of this thread.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 03:19 PM

Pip, this thread is eternal. It has no beginning and no end that we can see at this time.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Aeola
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 03:41 PM

So 'Folks' that's that then!..

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM

"Do you want me to start quoting myself again?"

For pity's sake no. I didn't get a straight answer first time, a second evasive diatribe might be too much. I'm manifesto'd out.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

You didn't get a straight answer??? I've given nothing but - you're the one with the gold medal in the point-dodging, conclusion-leaping and strawman-jousting triathlon.

Er, in my humble opinion.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:52 PM

Your opinion is duly noted.

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Okay here's one. In the 80s Bulgarian music was the rage for a while. Kate Bush even pinched some for a single. The music was state funded under the communist regime with some help from (more state cash) Radio Sofia.
Can a music sponsored by an institutional state apparatus be considered folk? It doesn't appear to fit the hearthfire and community peg unless a country is a community - which communism might suggest it is. So hang onto your gadulka - is open throated, sheep tending, hot milf in head dress Bulgarian folk music folk music?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM

Can a music sponsored by an institutional state apparatus be considered folk?

Would The trees they do grow high still be a folk song if it was given out free on the NHS? Er, yes.

What was the question?

Subject: RE: Who are folk?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:27 PM

Who cares? It's been pulped by the Pip Radish snippy machine into something that sounds clever. Mulch for the intellect.