Chippenham FF UK 2005

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM

But Roger, perhap it's you that wishes to impose his chosen tipple on others.

I walked into the session and saw, apart from loads of banjos and bodhrans (grin), two singers. And guess what? They sang!

I expect that the singers' expectation was that a few songs was acceptable and I thinnk they were right. After all, we are not talking wall-to-wall choruses, 50 verse ballads or interminable parodies but a few traditional songs sung by people who were also there as instrumentalists.

I repeat - the session was not pitched as a tunes only session it was pitched as an Irish music session and music includes song. The pub sells beer AND wine.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

Right, just sat with a highlighter pen and a Chippenham programme through my lunch break at work to get to the actual facts.
Where can the casual folkie sing or play at this fine fest?

Inspection of the official programme reveals the only organised singing sessions – two of them each day from 2.00 till 4.00 – clash with one another.
Then there's the Festival 'Folk Club' in the Cause Hall from 20.30 to 23.00 Fri/Sat/Sun only – where one can wait in turn for a spot – singing OR playing presumably. (I have attended these past two years and staying ALL night MIGHT bag you one song – occasionally two for the duration).
There are no other organised 'singing' sessions I can see other than one three-quarter-hour late night run through of organised ('led') chorus songs in the Cause Auditorium.

As for 'playing'.
The ONLY scheduled EVENING Irish Session at the Old Road Tavern ( led by Steve Morris) appears to be timetabled for 20.00 to 23.00 on the Friday in the official programme - and on no other evening!
Yes, there are more similar Irish sessions scheduled on the Sat, Sun & Mon for that venue – but all of them from 12.00 noon to 14.00
And, just like the singing sessions, the 'Extra' playing sessions in the Bar Reva, or the 'English' one in the Rose & Crown Barn all clash with the afternoon Irish sessions too.

The 'offending' party referred to, Mr Russell, worked hard on the Music Room's Stand, all day long, each day - thus being unable to attend ALL the organised singing sessions AND all the playing sessions except the Friday night session at the Old Road Tavern. Did he sing during that session on the Friday night?
Or was it on Sat, Sun or Monday evenings?
If that was the case, why then would anyone deny him a chance to both sing and play along with anybody and everybody else equally entitled, over a beer in a pub room where no officially organised event was happening?

The only other official entry in the programme for the Old Road Tavern on an evening was the Stick and Bucket competition.
At ALL OTHER TIMES the pub in question was open to all comers – to drink and make merry - in the side rooms and garden – in whatever fashion they saw fit – be it reciting poetry, singing, playing – all on an equal footing.
For anyone to suggest they in effect 'owned' the territory and deny any other their right to 'party' on equal footing in the situation, seems a wee bit off kilter.

Personally, we took our instruments up to the Old Road on the Friday evening for a 'sing' and found not only the 'official' session indoors, but a second playing session going on in the garden. We never unpacked our instruments, but supped beer and listened instead.
On returning on the Sat eve, there was no music happening in the garden on our arrival - so out came our instruments, so we sang round a table there for a good long while - leaving many musical spaces, should anyone else want to strike up also.
Just a little tolerance required, eh?
Cheers! HFA

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:42 AM

I don't often agree with Shambles, but in this case I must. Singers (and instrumentalists) should be aware of the "feel" of the event.

I very rarely attend tune sessions, and would never dream of singing in one (unless invited to). I have been to plenty mixed sessions where singers and instrumentalists happily co-exist and listen attentively to each other. But at too many of them one side or the other decides they want to talk noisily while the "other lot" are performing.

Shambles asked why the singers didn't go to the places provided. The simple answer is that a few places were provided between noon & 2pm and after 11pm. These were usually oversubscribed but between 2 and 11pm the places provided were mostly in Chester, Cleethorpes, etc.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Admiral
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM

Wine and Whiskey?! What a silly analogy! Yes we do like unaccompannied singing but we also like accompanied singing and unaccompanied tunes. What's wrong with mixing them - it seems to me that some people have climbed up on on their high horses and can't see the ground from where they are, they certainly aren't listening to any of the arguments. Do they really want to live in a world where tunes are in one venue and songs in another? I don't! Vive la difference!

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:44 AM

Shambles also infers the Old Road rooms were for players sessions and not singers only in the evening - which, with the exception of the Friday as stated above, in the official programme, they were not.
I'm with you Admiral! HFA

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:15 AM

I expect that the singers' expectation was that a few songs was acceptable and I think they were right. After all, we are not talking wall-to-wall choruses, 50 verse ballads or interminable parodies but a few traditional songs sung by people who were also there as instrumentalists.

Paul that is your view. I know that it was not a general one and I hope you would agree that a good session is a delcate balance and it would be a shame if this move towards regular singers - were to lead to conflict and these sessions becoming less than they have been as a result?

For my concern is less for what has gone - which cannot be changed - but for the future. As has been pointed out - there is room for other forms of music - in the bar (sometimes in the barn) and in the garden.

Your accusation that it is I that wish to impose my tastes upon this session by playing tunes with fellow session members who have attended to also play tunes - is frankly very silly. Perhaps this accusation may have some justification - if next year I also decide that I will treat this session to a song - immediately after one is inflicted and urge others to also do this - if doing this considered a right? This would quickly result in a quite different session and if other posters are correct - there is nothing that Steve could do about it......

There is no need for this to escalate - if folk accept the limitations of what form a session is intended to take and respect the wishes of their fellow session members. Problems only occur when this respect is not shown and personal needs are thought to be more important than the session's requirements. The occasional song may indeed be acceptable - but why not leave who sings it and when (or if it is sung at all) - to the session's leader?

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:49 AM

Roger,

Now you are being silly. You accuse others of imposing their tastes on a session but won't stand to be accused of wanting to do the same.

I don't think anyone was imposing their tastes on a session, they were singing songs.

Again, the session was not a tunes only session it was an Irish music session. Music includes singing, how can it not do so?

Did you know there are some people that get a bit peeved when sets of slides or hornpipes are played? There are some I think get annoyed when anything other than reels are played. I haven't seen anyone writing here that too many slides are being played in sessions.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM

You accuse others of imposing their tastes on a session but won't stand to be accused of wanting to do the same.

The issue is less about the singing of songs at this session. It is a question of who sings the occasional song and about imposing this individual's need to repeatedly sing in this session - before the needs of those of the rest of the session.

For yes, perhaps in truth similar critism could be levelled at someone who insisted on starting every set and did not leave any space for anyone else. But even if that criticism could be levelled with any justification at me or indeed you - at least the rest of the session would have the choice to join in and play with us.

When it is the same singer who decides they will be the one to sing more than the occassional song - not only are they depriving other singers of the chance to sing the occasional song - the rest of the session members must put down their instruments and wait until the song ends.

The lack of more direct control - customary at other sessions - (the increase in this being a course that has been suggested here) is one of the main attractions of playing in Irish sessions. It is this easy - going and tolerant approach that I feel is in danger of being taken advantage of here - rather than there being any real need or wish to change this tolerant approach.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: alanww
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

I am a singer (unaccompanied and accompanied with a concertina) and a musician, including for morris but I didn't do any of that at the festival. Generally I did enjoy Chippenham FF and thanks to The Admiral & Pearl, to Kitty and to those who organised the English Music sessions for doing their part with that!
It was just unfortunate that again(!) this year all these three events clashed every day - 12 noon to 2 pm was a very busy time!
I counted over 60 musicians at one stage crowding into the Rose & Crown Barn for one of the music sessions and, as has already been mentioned, the community of English musicians did off their own backs collonise The New Inn as a home for all other times of the day. Well done them and I believe the sessions must have added something positive to the festival!
But us unaccompanied and accompanied singers were not so cute! We didn't manage to find ourselves appropriate venue(s) for singing at times other than 12 noon to 2 pm.
As an illustration, the evening folk club sessions at The Cause had an hour of guests per night out of three with the rest of the time for floor spots. So each evening I arrived early, put my name down for a two-song spot early enough to be included. But in practice, while I attended a total of about 10 hours, I got a total of just two songs over the three evenings. I tend not to make a big issue about such things - c'est la vie! - but my partner was upset because the chairs made her back hurt and, if she had known in advance, she wouldn't have come so much to support me...
Perhaps there is also room for a venue for ordinary (mixed accompanied and unaccompanied) singaround with no guests and one song per person round the room? Seems a bit radical, I know!
All this discussion has suggested to me that there is a significant issue here, which should be considered by the organisers for next year!
1 Do any of us even know that the organisers are aware of it?
2 Have they read this thread?
3 If not, could anyone close to them let them know there is an issue?
4 If they have read it, what are their views?
Perhaps they are unaware that so many people who attend their festival have a first love of song or music, rather than dance?
"... when I heard of some ringing, some dancing and singing ...!"
Alan

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:22 PM

Keep the thread going and I'll print it off and give a copy to Bob and Gill at folk club in Devizes next Monday night.

Polly

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Admiral
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 AM

Alan, we had this conversation outside 'The Cause' late on Sunday night and I'm afraid that my opinion hasn't changed. Pearl and I have been running the Folk Clubs on Friday and Saturday nights at Chippers for a long time and we have always tried to be scrupulously fair about the sessions. I think that I have only been allowed to perform in Pearl's club twice over the years and that was only to help her out of a spot and vice versa, Pearl has rarely done anything in 'my' club, for all that we are both there well before the event starts (!).
As for one singer, one song round the room, yes, we could do that but then it would be a singaround and not a Folk Club and I think that there will always be a need for an event that allows ten minutes or so per spot for a performer to expound or expand into rather than the hustle of a sing. I don't think that Chippers is any different from any other Festival in that the performers list for the Folk Club is always going to be longer than the time allotted (ask Bob and Gill - they run the Folk Clubs at Towersey!) and without Dr Who nothing will change that! On both Friday and Saturday nights, the Singers List was over full before the evening started.
I understand the 'hunger' to perform but there should also be an understanding amongst all would be performers at the Folk Club that there is a very good chance that you won't get on so you might as well relax into it and enjoy the diversity of those who do and (of course) the Guests.
I think Pearl would join me in saying that we both immensely enjoyed the events that we ran over the weekend (at least I managed to get everybody on in the Sings this year!) and would like to thank all those who attended and added to the atmosphere of all the sessions - performers or not...

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:26 AM

I agree with Tony (Admiral).

I dont expect to be asked to sing every time I attend a session/club.

Even as a Resident I don't get to sing every week at my club - we have a rule of thumb that says residents step in to fill blanks in the proceedings. For example if we have a lot of "floor" singers maybe only the chair person for the night will get a song to start the show then floor singers will carry on until the "guest" is on.

I know other clubs work differently and whatever system they use probably works for them. The point is (and I said this earlier) everyone at the session knows how it works and accepts the plan.

What are we doing it for anyway? Not our own egos surely!

Dave Earl

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:19 AM

What are we doing it for anyway? Not our own egos surely!

I can now see the attraction for some - of finding a session tolerant enough to accept the same individual singing 3 or 4 songs.

Perhaps a little bit of history will be helpful and show the way forward and also partly explain why Steve's Irish session is the way it is and why many are very loyal to it and its tolerant approach.

The situation some years back, was similar to the one that singers seem to find themselves in now - not enough venues or none at the right time. Steve and few others started the Irish Session to address this problem - with great success - but it was only later that this Irish session incorporated into the Festival proper.

Perhaps that is the way foward? Those who wish to have a place where they could drop-in and sing at any point over the 4 days - could find a pub (and garden) where the licensee (like the one now at the Old Road Tavern) would be prepared to provide this?

Perhaps the old home of the Irish session - now the Gladstone Arms - would be willing to play host to this over the weekend? The current licencees do seem to be keen to be part of the fesival now - and I notice that it is now a site for dancing.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM

In my experience , ANY licenced premises that are happy to have music
in their Pub , Bar , or Restuarant as part of the Festival is only too pleased to have informal things going on after the 'organised ' bits have finished . The Newt at sidders has 'Us' from about twelve til three and eightish til closing , but there are always other musicians and singers dropping in and out all day - Have a beer or two , play a tune or three ! This appeared to be the way with the Old Road Tavern , with a nice mix of stuff going on all the time in various rooms as well as in the garden !

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

On the face of it this seems like a very petty argument, however not having been there makes it difficult to judge. I do wonder if Roger would have objected so much if these 3 or 4 songs he keeps mentioning had all been done by different people. In other words was it really the person who sang the songs, and/or the songs he/she sang to which he objects?
Giok.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:47 AM

Concerts and Folk Clubs and Singarounds are different animals, and long may they all flourish.

I think the point is that if sufficient singarounds (or a sympathetic venue to "do your own thing") were available, then you would not get tune sessions and Folk Club venues invaded by singarounders desperate for a quick fix of singing.

And everyone would be happier.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:53 AM

Yes we do like unaccompannied singing but we also like accompanied singing and unaccompanied tunes. What's wrong with mixing them - it seems to me that some people have climbed up on on their high horses and can't see the ground from where they are, they certainly aren't listening to any of the arguments. Do they really want to live in a world where tunes are in one venue and songs in another? I don't! Vive la difference!

I hope others agree when I come next year and insist on playing my banjo sets in the singaround....*Smiles*

The issue was really a very specific one but perhaps a general response toward the idea of mixed sessions would be helpful.

As a player and a singer - I tend to agree. For many of the very best sessions I have attended have been mixed affairs. But these are usually happy accidents - when a small group of individuals (usually unknown to each other) - find themselves making music together.

But at festivals - where there are many people wanting to play - although is still a place for such events - surely it does make perfect sense to cater for specific types of informal music-making and their different requirements?

If you have say 4 pubs willing to host infomal session - and specify (loosely) the nature of what each pub is hosting - this should be enough to cater for most tastes.

Singing (even informally) is about performance more than it is about participation. Tune sessions are more about participation than they are about performance. It is quite wrong to think (as I feel many singers do) that a tune session is just a song session with tunes. A whole different set of social and musical conventions apply - which may not be immediately clear and may - on a shallow look - seem to be a free-for-all.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: alanww
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:54 AM

Oh dear, with my previous posting I seem to have created some unintended assumptions from other Mudcatters!
In no way had I intended to criticise you Admiral! Within the rules you were operating, I thought you did as good a job as could be done. In fact, I thanked you for contributing to my enjoyable weekend!
And no, Dave I don't expect to sing at every folk club-formatted session I attend!
And I wasn't intending to suggest that the obviously-popular folk club format should be ditched for the singaround format.
What I was suggesting was that there is room for both and, as the singarounders seem to have been unsuccessful finding such an all-day venue, perhaps the festival organisers could help them next year, in addition to providing the popular 12 noon to 2 pm session at The Rose & Crown.
"Abroad for pleasure...!.
Alan

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:02 PM

Snuffy's point is spot on...

'if sufficient singarounds (or a sympathetic venue to "do your own thing") were available, then you would not get tune sessions and Folk Club venues invaded by singarounders desperate for a quick fix of singing.'

...but...

I feel like no one read my previous post. perhaps it was too long for most to bother reading? Let me condense it some...
According to the official programme.....
Evenings in the rooms of the Old Road Tavern, with the exception of the scheduled Friday night session, were NOT timetabled in the programme for 'playing' sessions, Irish or otherwise.
The rooms were fair game for ANYONE to sing, play or ANYTHING reasonable - the very 'sympathetic venue to "do your own thing"' - that Snuffy mentions.
Why moan that someone sang (any number of songs!)?
Why STILL insist the music going on in there should have exclusively been playing only?
I just don't get it! Exasperated - HFA

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:30 PM

I'm begining to think you all ought to get out more!

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:53 PM

I don't play and can't sing, I just enjoy a bit of entertainment with a pint, so I'm fairly impartial.
Nobody seems to be considering the practicalities and maths involved in this argument.
I had a look in the barn at the rose and crown, there were 20 or 30 people playing at the same time, enjoying getting through a number of tunes together.
For the same number of people to have sung two or three songs each it would have taken hours to get through.
How many pubs do the singers expect to be programmed for them so they can perform several times each ? Shanty crews are very good at getting a whole room joining in, but a lot of individual singers seem to think they have a right to be admired without thinking about what everyone else would like. If they find a pub and buy their beer, they should be able to attract a decent number of people to join them if they are entertaining enough.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:46 PM

Missed Chippers for the first time in 16 Years . Brill sings lunchtime and thats it for singers ,no venue in the evening hence my reason not to go. Mudgather at Banbury worked , I think Chippernham needs one.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:18 AM

The lack of officially programed informal sessions in the evening is probably because the Chippenham Folk Festival organisers would prefer that folk attended the ticketed events........

This is probably understandable but it does not prevent folk from making their own arrangements with licensees etc. That an informal session appears in a programme and at certain times - does not alter the nature and the conventions of these events - which is really decided by those attending the sessions and those in charge of the venue - rather than the fesival organisers.

The other factor is that some pubs have their regular weekend night gigs. That was certainly the case with the Bar Reva - where there was a new (programmed) Extra Session held during the lunchtime peak but where continuation of this session into the evening - would not have been possible. Perhaps the Bar Reva would be prepared in future to hold (non-programmed) evening sessions? Although the acoustics in there were really poor and the music was easily drowned-out by the background noise from only the few afternoon drinkers and would only be worse on a full weekend night.

Also pubs do change over time and the 'poshing-up' of The Angel is a good example. This was used for all sorts of informal get-togethers and I am not sure that the loss of this venue in recent years - has really been replaced.

Subject: RE: Chippenham FF UK 2005
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:44 PM

Interesting thread,

If you need more venue's for informal get-togethers.......

....The Rose and Crown "Barn" is available for any informal sessions after programed events on fri, sat , sun , monday evenings.

The Rose & Crown are proud to be a part of the Chippenham Folk Festival,
and Welcome all regulars and new comers.